this is stupid

[mdblue]

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/health/0505/23gay.html
Can anyone please explain to me the relevance of same-sex marriage to psychiatry? What’s the point of endorsing this from the association other than being politically correct?
If we consider psychiatry as a medical specialty we have to decide our boundaries and have to respect them. We can’t possibly comment on every social issue, behave like political activists and still claim ourselves as a scientific community.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PsyDRxPnow]

I don’t understand why professional associations such as APA and ApA find it necessary to endorse social issues such as gay marriages. What was once considered a mental illness now becomes the norm and heterosexuality becomes the minority of society. I hope that when I meet my maker he does not judge me for what the association that I subscribe to takes interest in. I never voted to endorse issues such as gay marriages as a member of my association.

I know that my views are considered to be the minority and, by some, closed minded on this forum but it’s not a matter of "open minded" it’s a matter of morality and values that were installed in me as a Christian.

I don’t hate the individuals who practice these sick behaviors but I hate what they do to themselves and others.

 

[Miklos]

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/health/0505/23gay.html
Can anyone please explain to me the relevance of same-sex marriage to psychiatry? What’s the point of endorsing this from the association other than being politically correct?
If we consider psychiatry as a medical specialty we have to decide our boundaries and have to respect them. We can’t possibly comment on every social issue, behave like political activists and still claim ourselves as a scientific community.

Regardless of what one believes regarding this (or countless other social issues), I find such statements counterproductive, as (IMO) Psychiatry faces far greater challenges, central among which is the stigmatization of mental illness and a wide spread public misunderstanding of Psychiatry.

Miklos

 

[lazure]

I don’t hate the individuals who practice these sick behaviors but I hate what they do to themselves and others.

And what are you going to do when you have a teenager or young adult questioning their sexuality in your office? Threaten them with hell?! You should not be in a helping profession with such judgmental views...

 

[Strap]

I don’t understand why professional associations such as APA and ApA find it necessary to endorse social issues such as gay marriages. What was once considered a mental illness now becomes the norm and heterosexuality becomes the minority of society. I hope that when I meet my maker he does not judge me for what the association that I subscribe to takes interest in. I never voted to endorse issues such as gay marriages as a member of my association.

I know that my views are considered to be the minority and, by some, closed minded on this forum but it’s not a matter of "open minded" it’s a matter of morality and values that were installed in me as a Christian.

I don’t hate the individuals who practice these sick behaviors but I hate what they do to themselves and others.

I've always known that the medical profession attracted conservatives, but the out and out feeble-minded comes as a shock. Which begs the question what a clinical psychologist is doing in this particular forum. If you had actually been accepted to medical school and understood human biology, then maybe it would have shed some light into your dark, sheltered little world.

Have you ever considered the fact that these social issues are directly involved in patient care, particularly mental health care, and that is why organizations such as the APA must address these issues. Silence amounts to abdication in the public arena.

I'm sure "these individuals" don't hate you either, just overcome with an overwhelming sense of pity.

 

[mdblue]

Have you ever considered the fact that these social issues are directly involved in patient care, particularly mental health care, and that is why organizations such as the APA must address these issues. Silence amounts to abdication in the public arena.

this is not directed towards me, but I think I should offer my view w/o getting into my personal beliefs.
1.This is a question of making a policy statement from a medical organisation which has far-reaching consequences for psychiatry in general.
2.The recession of the early 2000s also had far reaching social consequences, so is the rising gas price. What exactly psychiatry can offer for this very imp social issues? Has it made any policy statement on either of these? Can it comment on the social ramifications of the iraq war other than getting into PTSD etc? I don't think as psychiatrists, we are qualified enough to comment on every social issues. We should respect our boundaries and behave accordingly. We have to decide if we want to call ourselves as M.D. we have to accept that psychiatric disease states are biological dysfunctions which are not infuenced by social desirability. Inspite of the mistakes of the 60s and 70s, contemporary psych is considered to be a mainstream medical specialty which has shown to have high reliability albeit w/ lower validity for almost all the major d/o. Commenting on social stuffs can simply fuel the misconception that shrinks utilize social constructs to justify their own interests and it will simply strengthen the anti-psych camp.
My 0.02c

 

[Miklos]

Commenting on social stuffs can simply fuel the misconception that shrinks utilize social constructs to justify their own interests and it will simply strengthen the anti-psych camp.
My 0.02c

As above.

 

[Strap]

this is not directed towards me, but I think I should offer my view w/o getting into my personal beliefs.
1.This is a question of making a policy statement from a medical organisation which has far-reaching consequences for psychiatry in general.
2.The recession of the early 2000s also had far reaching social consequences, so is the rising gas price. What exactly psychiatry can offer for this very imp social issues? Has it made any policy statement on either of these? Can it comment on the social ramifications of the iraq war other than getting into PTSD etc? I don't think as psychiatrists, we are qualified enough to comment on every social issues. We should respect our boundaries and behave accordingly. We have to decide if we want to call ourselves as M.D. we have to accept that psychiatric disease states are biological dysfunctions which are not infuenced by social desirability. Inspite of the mistakes of the 60s and 70s, contemporary psych is considered to be a mainstream medical specialty which has shown to have high reliability albeit w/ lower validity for almost all the major d/o. Commenting on social stuffs can simply fuel the misconception that shrinks utilize social constructs to justify their own interests and it will simply strengthen the anti-psych camp.
My 0.02c

According to this "logic", then pediatricians shouldn't have any policies against child abuse or OB/Gyns shouldn't discuss rape, as these are social issues that should be left to politicians.

We do not practice medicine in a vacuum. It is our obligation to look out for the health of our patients.

Like it or not, physicians are held in high regard (yes, even psychiatrists), and their opinions are well respected and hold a lot sway.

By the way, the argument "don't blame me for my beliefs, it's just the way i was raised" has to be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Are you not an individual? Do you not think for yourself? Has your education system failed you so miserably?

You so-called "good christians" are so hypocritical that it's downright comical. Have you seriously studied the life of Christ and what he represented? Does your bible not contain the passages where he championed the outcasts and befriended the "sinners". If Christ was alive today, doing the same things he did in his celebrated life, he would be crucified again, only this time in the arena of public opinion as a bleeding-heart liberal.

You keep claiming that psychiatrists should be putting their efforts into legitimizing the field. Maybe it's YOU who has the self-doubt and insecurity. I'm sure when the APA made this proclamation, they did it with the full confidence that we ARE respected and what we say WILL be heard in the interest of our patients.

 

[albertwhatjob]

According to this "logic", then pediatricians shouldn't have any policies against child abuse or OB/Gyns shouldn't discuss rape, as these are social issues that should be left to politicians.

You so-called "good christians" are so hypocritical that it's downright comical. Have you seriously studied the life of Christ and what he represented? Does your bible not contain the passages where he championed the outcasts and befriended the "sinners". If Christ was alive today, doing he same things he did in his celebrated life, he would be crucified again, only this time in the arena of public opinion as a bleeding-heart liberal.

I think we're getting away from the OP. The original question is whether or not the association, as a medical body, is acting in the best interest of the patients, or if they're just politicking. Judging from the article, it seems that the organization thinks that not affording gay couples the same rights as heterosexual couples adversely affects the stability of their relationships and mental health. Even as a Christian, I find it hard to disagree with that opinion.

However, I think homosexuality is in such a grey area (i.e. its runs on political, religous, moral, social, mental, scientific lines) that it did strike me as odd that the APA would publicy endorse it, even if they had the patient's well-being in mind. Anyone would agree that child abuse and rape is wrong. But not anyone would agree that homosexuality is wrong (or right). A psychiatrist knows that he needs to counsel a rapist to not rape, but how does a psychiatrist counsel someone about their sexuality? Maybe that's the real question here...

And just to clarify in case there's any confusion: Jesus most certainly was a champion of the sinner, but not EVER did he champion the sin itself. He loved the sinner, but hated the sin.

 

[sasevan]

I've always known that the medical profession attracted conservatives, but the out and out feeble-minded comes as a shock. Which begs the question what a clinical psychologist is doing in this particular forum. If you had actually been accepted to medical school and understood human biology, then maybe it would have shed some light into your dark, sheltered little world.

Have you ever considered the fact that these social issues are directly involved in patient care, particularly mental health care, and that is why organizations such as the APA must address these issues. Silence amounts to abdication in the public arena.

I'm sure "these individuals" don't hate you either, just overcome with an overwhelming sense of pity.

Hi Strap,
Great posts.
I'm a clinical psychologists (also currently pre-med) and wholeheartedly welcome the position that the American Psychiatric Association is advancing and hope that the American Psychological Association follows suit forthrightly.
If we are going to be providers of corrective as well as preventive mental heath services then obviously any biochemical or psychosocial agent that negatively impacts mental health has to be identified. In that context, how can the continued discrimination and prejudice that exists against sexual minorities not be addressed? Doesn't homophobia contribute to the higher prevalence of mood disorders and substance use disorders currently evident in the GLBT community? How can psychiatrists and psychologists not advocate for social policy changes that will be beneficial to their patients?
I guess some would answer that we shouldn't because it may not be expedient in the current political climate or because heterosexism is a Christian doctrine (correction: for some branches of Christianity its a doctrine) but with you, I would suggest that it is nonetheless very good behavioral science.
Peace.
P.S. PsyDRxPnow is not a clinical psychologist but a student.

 

[mdblue]

According to this "logic", then pediatricians shouldn't have any policies against child abuse or OB/Gyns shouldn't discuss rape, as these are social issues that should be left to politicians.

We do not practice medicine in a vacuum. It is our obligation to look out for the health of our patients.

Like it or not, physicians are held in high regard (yes, even psychiatrists), and their opinions are well respected and hold a lot sway.

You keep claiming that psychiatrists should be putting their efforts into legitimizing the field. Maybe it's YOU who has the self-doubt and insecurity. I'm sure when the APA made this proclamation, they did it with the full confidence that we ARE respected and what we say WILL be heard in the interest of our patients.

Again, as mentioned before by albertwhatjob, you are off the point. As an individual, we can do whatever we want to do and that includes a psychiatrist in his/her office. Your belief system depends on you.
However, to make a statement on a social debate, APA presumes same-sex marriage is "normal". Do you think psychiatrists are qualified enough to comment on this based on their professional expertise? What if tomorrow APA reverses it's stand and come up w/ a billable code of same-sex relationship problem? APA considers itself as a scientific medical association, so before endorsing this social stand it should've provided the unequivocal scientific data to back up it's choice, which of course it can't provide. Conviction of being right and trying to be politically correct does not justify this blunder by the apex organisation. Again, to remind you we are not talking of simple gay relationships, but of marriage, which is an important social concept.
Remember the Tuskegee exp? It was ethically sound(approved by AMA) at it's time which did not prove that it was a proper thing to do. That's the problem w/ M.D.s stepping out of their medical practice.
I've already mentioned about the danger of bringing in social constructs to classify something as normal or pathological, because it further dilutes the so-called science of psychiatry and provides more ammo to people like Tom Cruize.
And Sasevan, why can't APA speaks out against the Iraq war, since we definitively know war(w/ accompanying stress) predisposes/precipitates all kinds of psych d/o?

 

[MDgonnabe]

And Sasevan, why can't APA speaks out against the Iraq war, since we definitively know war(w/ accompanying stress) predisposes/precipitates all kinds of psych d/o?

while i understand the concerns of those who don't want secular organizations mixing with religion etc, i think the argument still holds for what strap said. the real issue at hand is more about earning trust, encouraging those with problems regarding their sexual orientation to come forward to their physicians. if the apa is viewed as pro gay rights, then more individuals with problems regarding their sexuality will be able to discuss these important concerns with their doctors. to protest a war, on the other hand, isn't as necessary in the sense that it's much more obvious what's going on with the patient. that is to say, a person would have a much harder time covering up the fact that he/she went to war, came back, and started having problems. when it's something as intimate as sexual orientation, it's a lot easier for a patient to cover up the real issue at hand. make sense?

 

[LM02]

Which begs the question what a clinical psychologist is doing in this particular forum. If you had actually been accepted to medical school and understood human biology, then maybe it would have shed some light into your dark, sheltered little world.

I imagine that this remark does not really warrant a response, but please do not judge an entire professional and research discipline based upon one person's comments. I am a clinical psychologist and abhor the statements made by PsyDRxNow.

It may be hard to believe, but not everyone wants to be an MD when they enter college. I have always been an honors student, attended a top-5 university, and completed 6 rigorous years of doctoral training prior to starting a postdoctoral fellowship in a prestigious university-based medical center. My interactions with others in my field suggest that many clinical psychologists have similar origins. After all, the average acceptance rate for a PhD program in clinical psychology hovers around the 2-5% range.

As I usually state in this forum, I've found my interactions with psychiatrists to be profoundly rewarding and pleasant. To do the work we do, team work and collaboration are essential. However, attitudes like the one that prefaced this post serve as great obstacles in such a process.

I realize that this post is far afield from the purpose of this thread, but I was having too difficult a time sitting back and allowing this statement go without comment.

Thank you.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

http://www.ajc.com/health/content/health/0505/23gay.html
Can anyone please explain to me the relevance of same-sex marriage to psychiatry? What’s the point of endorsing this from the association other than being politically correct?
If we consider psychiatry as a medical specialty we have to decide our boundaries and have to respect them. We can’t possibly comment on every social issue, behave like political activists and still claim ourselves as a scientific community.

I decided I did have something to add to this discussion.

1) I am very much in favor of my gay colleagues and patients being able to legally formalize their relationships.
2) In 6 years of practicing psychiatry, I think I have met one patient who I would say was screwed up by having gay parents. (It was a long story, involving a biological daughter of one lesbian forming a stronger attachment with the bio mom's partner after the pair split...)
In that time though, I have seen dozens of kids who have been destroyed, abused, and otherwise messed up by parents in nice traditional heterosexual relationships, to say nothing of those who have been raised with no perceptible parenting at all, due to mom's succession of boyfriends/husbands, or dad's absence and/or substance abuse.
3) I am from conservative roots, but I fail to see how my marriage is "threatened" by allowing gays to marry. Want to "Save Marriage"? TAKE CARE OF YOUR OWN!!!

All that said, though, I agree with the OP--I think that it is bad for psychiatry as a profession to be associated with one side of a very polarized political issue. I think that it actually will continue to raise suspicion and stigma in the community. It breaks my heart to hear from a religious patient that they are fearful that I will dismiss (or even attempt to convert them from) their beliefs in the name of "science" or "psychology" or something. I think this move by the APA does nothing to further the cause of either mental health or gay marriage.

 

[MDgonnabe]

It breaks my heart to hear from a religious patient that they are fearful that I will dismiss (or even attempt to convert them from) their beliefs in the name of "science" or "psychology" or something. I think this move by the APA does nothing to further the cause of either mental health or gay marriage.

how many of your patients do you think will ask you about your stance on this issue?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

how many of your patients do you think will ask you about your stance on this issue?

Not many do or will--but you can see doubt in their eyes, sometimes. You see it a lot when you're taking a social history from a new patient. For example, a gay patient often hesitates to bring up their partner. Or a Christian patient is hesitant about where they went to school, or to mention that their pastor is an important support person. In both instances, it seems to be because there is an assumption of rejection...

 

[MDgonnabe]

Not many do or will--but you can see doubt in their eyes, sometimes. You see it a lot when you're taking a social history from a new patient. For example, a gay patient often hesitates to bring up their partner. Or a Christian patient is hesitant about where they went to school, or to mention that their pastor is an important support person. In both instances, it seems to be because there is an assumption of rejection...

yeah, i'm not sure how i'm going to deal with strict christian patients since i'm not christian, or even religious, in any way. but i have several very strict christian friends. and i'm sure that it's very comforting for the patient when you share a religion. how do you personally deal with these situations? do you just avoid delving into any personal info?

 

[Anasazi23]

... how do you personally deal with these situations? do you just avoid delving into any personal info?

It depends on the psychiatrist. Generally, when patients ask these types of questions, they have one of two motives for the inquiry. 1. Curiosity. 2. A concern that a personal attribute you may possess may hinder your therapeutic relationship.

I often get the "You look too young to be a doctor. How old are you?" or "Are you married?" This question I take in context. When I'm seeing a patient I'm not really following (on call or for a medical complaint), I generally answer the question in order to establish a quick rapport so that I can get my exam/interview done. Other times, particulary with psychiatric patients whom I've worked with for some time, I respond with, "Do you worry that perhaps my young age would interfere with my ability to provide you with good care?" Their response is both informative and sometimes, therapeutic. The same response can be given for "What religion are you?" "Do you believe in God?" or "Are you married?"