This is why you avoid Carribean Med Schools

[qwerty89]

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http://www.valuemd.com/ross-university-school-medicine/209666-devastated-match.html

devastated by the match! what to do
I've had a rough week and was hoping someone on this forum could give me some advice on what are some possibilities or options I may have.
I just went through the match hoping to get into anesthesia. I applied early, on Sep 1st, and received 9 interviews. I had a really good feeling going in. I also applied to IM categorical as a backup and out of the 30 places I applied to, got 23 interviews, of which I went to 10. I ranked all my anesthesia programs first and then 5 IM programs.

When I received the email on Monday saying that I matched, I was beyond ecstatic. Even though I applied to IM, my heart was set on anesthesia. I come to learn on Thursday that I failed to match into anesthesia and matched into my top ranked IM program. I wish I could explain how devastated I was. It's unfortunate because the IM program is a legit University program with every fellowship in house including cards, GI, heme, you name it, and someone more deserving could have been much more appreciative of the spot.

I was wondering what the chances are of my IM program director letting me interview for anesthesia next year? Is this ever done? I know many people that switch specialties after their first year, and I wish I could go back in time and just rank prelim IM programs and stayed away from categorical. I figure my other option is to complete IM and then apply to anesthesia. I don't really know what to do and if anyone has heard of any similar situations and what the possible options are that are available to me.

My scores are I/II/cs 248/244/pass(1st attempt) and only 1 B in basic sciences. I'm not one of those geniuses and had to work very very hard the last 4 years. I can't believe it ended like this!


A Ross student with 248 STEP 1 could not match into Anesthesiology. Now imagine what happens to those who score below average >220 or very low >200.

 

[slatermd]

Really, that is why you don't put a program on your match list if you'd be upset about matching there.

 

[slatermd]

First response on the board that you linked:

lesson for others...NEVER put a place on your ROL if you aren't willing (or wanting) to go there...

 

[Signifier]

Reading these responses, I had a question- what does happen to people who do not match? I am assuming that they try again next year? Sorry, I am a bit ignorant about the years after MS. 😳

 

[slatermd]

Not matching is different than matching into something you didn't want. If you match, you go there--it's a binding agreement.

If you don't match at all, your main options are to "scramble" and contact programs that didn't fill all of their spots, or take a year off, do research or something productive, and reenter the match the following year.

 

[alwaysaangel]

At least that person matched. He'll get over it and be happy he has a job and full training program.

Early after the match there are a lot of emotions. Getting rejected by x programs in the millisecond when you open that envelope/email is very emotional. Its depressing to lose all that hope all in one second, and far more emotionally exhausting than applying to med school when the rejections come over several months.

The whole "don't list somewhere you don't want to go" is SEVERELY overrated. Is scrambling really better than having a residency that isn't your top choice? The scramble gets uglier and uglier every year and there are fewer and fewer spots available. Taking a year off and reapplying usually makes you a weaker applicant and if you didn't get in the first time its unlikely you will the second time around.

 

[slatermd]

Is scrambling really better than having a residency that isn't your top choice? The scramble gets uglier and uglier every year and there are fewer and fewer spots available. Taking a year off and reapplying usually makes you a weaker applicant and if you didn't get in the first time its unlikely you will the second time around.

Great points.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'd rather have a job than take a year off for sure. And I'd rather match somewhere than have to scramble. I think it takes a good balance of knowing yourself/knowing what you want, and being as realistic as possible about your chances at different programs.

"Don't list somewhere you don't want to go" could also mean "lower your standards." I wouldn't rank places that I didn't want to go...I'm not saying I wouldn't have put that IM program on my list, I'm saying if I did I would have been happy to match there. I think it's as much (or more) about outlook as it is about strategy.

 

[gravitywave]

coming out of Ross, this person should be grateful to have matched at all - and to what sounds like a pretty good IM program at that!

edit: just reread the quoted post, and am i the only one who reads it that this person didn't go to all the offered gas interviews? if so, double-stupid-score.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Great points.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'd rather have a job than take a year off for sure. And I'd rather match somewhere than have to scramble. I think it takes a good balance of knowing yourself/knowing what you want, and being as realistic as possible about your chances at different programs.

"Don't list somewhere you don't want to go" could also mean "lower your standards." I wouldn't rank places that I didn't want to go...I'm not saying I wouldn't have put that IM program on my list, I'm saying if I did I would have been happy to match there. I think it's as much (or more) about outlook as it is about strategy.

Exactly. I bet that poster is happy now and has accepted where he ended up. There is a thread in ERAS forum called "**** the ****ing match" and the OP who was originally very unhappy matching so far down his list actually loves his program now.

A lot of people who are initially unhappy are just dealing with the rejection - they are happy with it once they make it through.

But yes, a lot of it is perspective.

 

[bobow98]

At least that person matched. He'll get over it and be happy he has a job and full training program.

Early after the match there are a lot of emotions. Getting rejected by x programs in the millisecond when you open that envelope/email is very emotional. Its depressing to lose all that hope all in one second, and far more emotionally exhausting than applying to med school when the rejections come over several months.

The whole "don't list somewhere you don't want to go" is SEVERELY overrated. Is scrambling really better than having a residency that isn't your top choice? The scramble gets uglier and uglier every year and there are fewer and fewer spots available. Taking a year off and reapplying usually makes you a weaker applicant and if you didn't get in the first time its unlikely you will the second time around.

Maybe apply for a consulting job with a company like Mckinsey or Bain at the same time? LoL....Gotta use the MD for something you know?

 

[alwaysaangel]

Maybe apply for a consulting job with a company like Mckinsey or Bain at the same time? LoL....Gotta use the MD for something you know?

Not as easy as you'd think. Its actually pretty depressing - the number of posters in the residency forum that are unemployed MDs with no residency and no prosects and lots of loans.

 

[FIREitUP]

coming out of Ross, this person should be grateful to have matched at all - and to what sounds like a pretty good IM program at that!

edit: just reread the quoted post, and am i the only one who reads it that this person didn't go to all the offered gas interviews? if so, double-stupid-score.

I was under the impression that gasterenterology was a fellowship of IM, thus you don't apply for it until after you're a resident? Perhaps the person went to all Anesthesiology interviews and just some IM interviews?

 

[alwaysaangel]

I was under the impression that gasterenterology was a fellowship of IM, thus you don't apply for it until after you're a resident? Perhaps the person went to all Anesthesiology interviews and just some IM interviews?

Gas is anesthesia. Gas...as in you gas the patient to knock them out.

Based on the OP he went to and ranked all 9 anesthesia programs but not all the IM program interviews.

 

[theWUbear]

You don't go to the carribean because...you'll match your top choice IM residency? Why the *@$#& am I spending years raising my GPA again?

thread rated: one star

 

[cowme]

Great points.

"Don't list somewhere you don't want to go" could also mean "lower your standards." I wouldn't rank places that I didn't want to go...I'm not saying I wouldn't have put that IM program on my list, I'm saying if I did I would have been happy to match there. I think it's as much (or more) about outlook as it is about strategy.

You may say that now, but if you were in the OPs position, you would probably be devastated too. Basically, all through med school, all anybody will ever ask you is "so what are you going into?". You spend three years toying around with every field, then you finally realize the specialty that is your dream job. Sounds like the OP found that specialty in gas.

Then, the OP got 9 interviews. Not a shoo in, but 9 is a solid enough number to at least expect to match in your desired field. You spend 6 months obsessing over each of the 9 programs, picturing yourself in each program, city, and hospital.

The OP was realistic, though, and did a great job of having a back up plan, in case anesthesia didn't work. But Just because he/she matched at an IM program, doesn't mean that it isn't a crushing blow to not be able to practice your dream job. This isn't like matching at your 20th ranked program in your selected field, this is basically the equivalent of not matching, and having to pick another field.

This isn't like med school, where you can retake the mcat or do a post bac to strengthen your application. You pretty much have one shot to go through the match successfully. An unmatched applicant is basically looked at as damaged goods, and re-applicants fare FAR worse in their second years than during their initial attempt to match.

My heart goes out to the OP, because if I had to do another residency other than rads, I would have been crushed. Absolutely crushed.

 

[FIREitUP]

Gas is anesthesia. Gas...as in you gas the patient to knock them out.

Based on the OP he went to and ranked all 9 anesthesia programs but not all the IM program interviews.

Oooo, well i was under the impression that gas stood for gastroenterology, but i stand corrected.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

Man, I'm only in the beginning of my journey and when I see these type of things, even though I'm so far away from that point it just freaks me out inside

OP, I'm really sorry you didn't match. I hope things will work out the way you want it to. good luck.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

My heart goes out to the OP, because if I had to do another residency other than rads, I would have been crushed. Absolutely crushed.

So is it still a good idea then to have a backup? I mean the OP got 9 interviews which is good, and the IM residency was way down on his list, but he still matched into it. Would it be better to just not include the backup (and perhaps just apply to more programs) if you would be THAT unhappy doing it? Did you have a backup other than rads?

 

[Torr]

I feel bad for the OP. I honestly wouldn't have ranked something if I really couldnt see myself doing it.

My friends that were applying for the more competitive residencies had backups but if they had matched into those backups I don't think they would have been "devastated".

I didn't know that reapplying for the match actually decreases your chances as Alwaysaangel stated.

Also, is this thread supposed to be in pre-allo?

 

[qwerty89]

You don't go to the carribean because...you'll match your top choice IM residency? Why the *@$#& am I spending years raising my GPA again?

thread rated: one star

The reason I posted this is because a great number of people who plan on going to the "BIG4" say that as long as they work hard and and score as well as, or better than, US allopathic grads that they will get what they want. Clearly this is not the case. The bias against Caribbean grads is very real and with increasing US enrollment the Match will become even more difficult.

Here we have a student who did extremely well in medical school considering they had nearly a 4.0 in basic sciences and got 248 on their STEP1. They worked as hard as they could and should have matched into SOME Gas program but did not. Yeah the person got their top choice IM program...but it wasn't their desired specialty. And its not like we are talking about Derm or NS or Ortho here.

 

[slatermd]

You may say that now, but if you were in the OPs position, you would probably be devastated too. Basically, all through med school, all anybody will ever ask you is "so what are you going into?". You spend three years toying around with every field, then you finally realize the specialty that is your dream job. Sounds like the OP found that specialty in gas.

Then, the OP got 9 interviews. Not a shoo in, but 9 is a solid enough number to at least expect to match in your desired field. You spend 6 months obsessing over each of the 9 programs, picturing yourself in each program, city, and hospital.

The OP was realistic, though, and did a great job of having a back up plan, in case anesthesia didn't work. But Just because he/she matched at an IM program, doesn't mean that it isn't a crushing blow to not be able to practice your dream job. This isn't like matching at your 20th ranked program in your selected field, this is basically the equivalent of not matching, and having to pick another field.

This isn't like med school, where you can retake the mcat or do a post bac to strengthen your application. You pretty much have one shot to go through the match successfully. An unmatched applicant is basically looked at as damaged goods, and re-applicants fare FAR worse in their second years than during their initial attempt to match.

My heart goes out to the OP, because if I had to do another residency other than rads, I would have been crushed. Absolutely crushed.

I don't disagree with you; it's a tough spot. There's really no argument because getting your heart set on something is a matter or personal perspective. I know that I have some control over my expectations, and all I'm saying here is that if I were trying to match from Ross into a relatively competitive specialty, I would have either had more flexible expectations than this student, or I would have set up my list differently.

I'm betting you're not from Ross, and I'm betting you had more reason than this student to believe you would successfully match into rads somewhere.

Even if this person did everything perfectly, there's still the factor of "what can you really expect, coming from an institution where ~1.4% of (1331) students matched into anesthesiology the last two years?"

Of course it sucks, no argument there. But when you're playing against odds like those, you either stack the deck or you don't bet your life savings.

 

[theWUbear]

The reason I posted this is because a great number of people who plan on going to the "BIG4" say that as long as they work hard and and score as well as, or better than, US allopathic grads that they will get what they want. Clearly this is not the case. The bias against Caribbean grads is very real and with increasing US enrollment the Match will become even more difficult.

Here we have a student who did extremely well in medical school considering they had nearly a 4.0 in basic sciences and got 248 on their STEP1. They worked as hard as they could and should have matched into SOME Gas program but did not. Yeah the person got their top choice IM program...but it wasn't their desired specialty. And its not like we are talking about Derm or NS or Ortho here.

I should apologize a bit as I did not take note of GPA and was unable to inteperet STEP score. Fair points

 

[Dr Gerrard]

dang my sister is at one now. she in december of one year she wanted to go to medical school and my dad pressured her to rush and end up go to the Caribbean rather than lose another year by applying for the next years cycle

i am so worried for her. she does want to do FM or IM, so thats good, but still

 

[MCAT guy]

http://www.valuemd.com/ross-university-school-medicine/209666-devastated-match.html

devastated by the match! what to do
I've had a rough week and was hoping someone on this forum could give me some advice on what are some possibilities or options I may have.
I just went through the match hoping to get into anesthesia. I applied early, on Sep 1st, and received 9 interviews. I had a really good feeling going in. I also applied to IM categorical as a backup and out of the 30 places I applied to, got 23 interviews, of which I went to 10. I ranked all my anesthesia programs first and then 5 IM programs.

When I received the email on Monday saying that I matched, I was beyond ecstatic. Even though I applied to IM, my heart was set on anesthesia. I come to learn on Thursday that I failed to match into anesthesia and matched into my top ranked IM program. I wish I could explain how devastated I was. It's unfortunate because the IM program is a legit University program with every fellowship in house including cards, GI, heme, you name it, and someone more deserving could have been much more appreciative of the spot.

I was wondering what the chances are of my IM program director letting me interview for anesthesia next year? Is this ever done? I know many people that switch specialties after their first year, and I wish I could go back in time and just rank prelim IM programs and stayed away from categorical. I figure my other option is to complete IM and then apply to anesthesia. I don't really know what to do and if anyone has heard of any similar situations and what the possible options are that are available to me.

My scores are I/II/cs 248/244/pass(1st attempt) and only 1 B in basic sciences. I'm not one of those geniuses and had to work very very hard the last 4 years. I can't believe it ended like this!


A Ross student with 248 STEP 1 could not match into Anesthesiology. Now imagine what happens to those who score below average >220 or very low >200.

How do you avoid writing your entire post in BOLD?

And a Ross student should be able to match with a Step 1 of 248, they just need to chose the right specialty.

US MD match rate: 93%
DO match rate: 70%
International MD: 40%

So they still get spots.

Edit:I just looked. 10% of IM is US IMGs. They are matching out there for sure.

 

[rhcarolina]

Really, that is why you don't put a program on your match list if you'd be upset about matching there.

+1

(unless you have tiger blood, which would mean you're bi-winning--winning in Internal Medicine and winning in Anesthesiology)

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Great numbers, 9 interviews and no match? Maybe this has nothing to do with the Caribbean.

 

[JKinSC]

Great numbers, 9 interviews and no match? Maybe this has nothing to do with the Caribbean.

I was wondering if I was the only person thinking this.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

How do you avoid writing your entire post in BOLD?

And a Ross student should be able to match with a Step 1 of 248, they just need to chose the right specialty.

US MD match rate: 93%
DO match rate: 70%
International MD: 40%

So they still get spots.

Edit:I just looked. 10% of IM is US IMGs. They are matching out there for sure.

where'd you get that 10% figure. i couldn't find the breakdown (composition) of "international/independent applicants" in the match.

i've posted this chart elsewhere before, but i'll put it here again to verify your post for others.

 

[NoMatterWhat]

Taking a year off and reapplying usually makes you a weaker applicant and if you didn't get in the first time its unlikely you will the second time around.

So the MD/DO degree would mean nothing then?

 

[alwaysaangel]

So the MD/DO degree would mean nothing then?

Well for reapplying for residency of course it has meaning. But generally, if a person is non-competitive their first application cycle - very little will help them the second time around. They can apply for something else that may be less competitive. But applying twice for say derm after a prelim year usually doesn't go well (at least from what I've seen)

And as far as the degree meaning nothing - without a license MD/DO is almost worthless except for a few who manage to get some sort of consult position but those are few and far between.

 

[BadHorse]

So the MD/DO degree would mean nothing then?

I bet you'd have the fanciest post-nominal on the welfare line.

 

[OzelloPiRat]

Surprised Dr. Fraud hasn't jumped on here. Maybe he just attacks pre DO threads that mention the Carib schools. If you want numbers, HockeyDr did a great DO vs Carib list comparison for matching. He did not do a break down of US Carib vs US MD tho. I think ERAS has it on their site?

 

[OzelloPiRat]

Couldn't one do research for the year between matches? Is that enough to stay off the pan handlers corner? How else could you improve yourself and make a stronger application? Do PDs give you feed back if they don't accept you into their program?

 

[NoMatterWhat]

Well for reapplying for residency of course it has meaning. But generally, if a person is non-competitive their first application cycle - very little will help them the second time around. They can apply for something else that may be less competitive. But applying twice for say derm after a prelim year usually doesn't go well (at least from what I've seen)

US MD match rate: 93%
DO match rate: 70%
International MD: 40%

As for the MD "match rate", does it mean 7 out of 100 graduates did not match anywhere?
I've never seen any jobless doctor, or med-school graduate. Still, how high is the risk of not matching anywhere at all? How often does it happen?

 

[alwaysaangel]

Couldn't one do research for the year between matches? Is that enough to stay off the pan handlers corner?

Yes you can. It may or may not be paid depending on what you do. You will have to enter loan repayment 6 months after graduation.

How else could you improve yourself and make a stronger application?

Its very difficult. You cannot retake steps. You can do research and SOMETIMES this will help. But a lot of times if you didn't match or successfully scramble the first time around you need to change what specialty you are trying to apply to. (unless you just really did something stupid such as apply to or rank too few programs)

Do PDs give you feed back if they don't accept you into their program?

No. They really don't have the time. Your home program might but in general random PDs aren't going to bother to tell you why they didn't match you or interview you.

This isn't supposed to be a horror story. My only point was the OP was "devastated" that they didn't match into Anesthesia. But if they applied broadly and didn't match they likely wouldn't have done any better the second time around. They will adjust to their new career in IM and be thankful they will be a licensed practicing doctor soon enough.

Leaving a residency in the middle without having a program already set up to transfer to (which is difficult) is a terrible idea. Search user turquoseblue and read their posts if you want to see what happens when you're not happy with what you get and you jump ship without a life jacket.

 

[NoMatterWhat]

You cannot retake the Steps no matter what?
I see on websites that school XYZ claims it has 98% pass rate for Step 1, what would the other 2% do?

 

[alwaysaangel]

As for the MD "match rate", does it mean 7 out of 100 graduates did not match anywhere?
I've never seen any jobless doctor, or med-school graduate. Still, how high is the risk of not matching anywhere at all? How often does it happen?

7/100 did not match. Most will scramble into categorical programs in the same or a different specialty. Some will scramble into transitional programs and reapply the next year.

There are jobless med school grads. They're rare and likely don't advertise it. Poke your head around the Residency forum/ERAS forum and you'll find a few. Its pretty rare for people to be completely unemployable. Most people will change specialties and get a residency in SOMETHING. But if you're arrogant and think you're too good to do that or leave a residency mid-year because you're "unhappy" and you could end up in trouble.

 

[alwaysaangel]

You cannot retake the Steps no matter what?
I see on websites that school XYZ claims it has 98% pass rate for Step 1, what would the other 2% do?

If you pass the step you cannot retake them. (unless you take extended time off and you don't complete all three steps within 7 years - then you have to retake all of them).

But its not like the MCAT. If you pass you cannot retake to increase your score.

If you fail you can retake until you pass.

 

[cowme]

Couldn't one do research for the year between matches? Is that enough to stay off the pan handlers corner? How else could you improve yourself and make a stronger application? Do PDs give you feed back if they don't accept you into their program?

Depends what the problem is: if someone is not getting enough interviews, it is usually not just because of lack of research. You cannot change your grades in med school and you cannot change your USMLE scores.

If you didn't apply to enough programs, or only applied to top programs and didn't match, good research certainly can help you chances, but being a re-applicant hurts many times more than research will help. That is why having a back-up is so essential.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

You cannot retake the Steps no matter what?
I see on websites that school XYZ claims it has 98% pass rate for Step 1, what would the other 2% do?

I believe that you can't retake Step 1 if you achieved the passing score or higher (you can retake only if you fail). I think the passing score is slightly below 200?

Alwaysaangel or others, feel free to correct me if my understanding is wrong!

Edit: Got beat to it!

 

[cowme]

So is it still a good idea then to have a backup? I mean the OP got 9 interviews which is good, and the IM residency was way down on his list, but he still matched into it. Would it be better to just not include the backup (and perhaps just apply to more programs) if you would be THAT unhappy doing it? Did you have a backup other than rads?

My backup plan was to do my internship (you apply separately for 1 year internships for rads which you are required to do first), then hope and pray a spot would open up in a program I liked the next year. Thank god this didn't happen, but Radiology is big enough that residency spots open every year for various reasons (residents get sick, drop out, transfer, quit too), and these have to filled by SOMEONE. This was probably the strategy the OP could have taken, but it is far more risky and may leave you unemployed for a couple years waiting with no guarantee.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

The whole "don't list somewhere you don't want to go" is SEVERELY overrated. Is scrambling really better than having a residency that isn't your top choice? The scramble gets uglier and uglier every year and there are fewer and fewer spots available. Taking a year off and reapplying usually makes you a weaker applicant and if you didn't get in the first time its unlikely you will the second time around.

I agree with MZ on this, different strokes ya know. I saw some g-d awful programs while interviewing and I knew I'd rather take another year and try again than go to those programs. Why? I'd be incredibly unhappy. How could I be so sure? I definitely had my reasons. Perhaps this isn't the philosophy of everyone but I didn't work so hard the last 4 years to settle on a program. I'd rather take my chances again the following year.

As for the the story from the OP, I don't think we know enough about that person to make a judgement call. Anyone can look great on paper. Hell, I know someone from a US allopathic school who had interviews at elite programs and still ended up scrambling. The interview still matters no matter what school you are from.

 

[slatermd]

My backup plan was to do my internship (you apply separately for 1 year internships for rads which you are required to do first), then hope and pray a spot would open up in a program I liked the next year. Thank god this didn't happen, but Radiology is big enough that residency spots open every year for various reasons (residents get sick, drop out, transfer, quit too), and these have to filled by SOMEONE. This was probably the strategy the OP could have taken, but it is far more risky and may leave you unemployed for a couple years waiting with no guarantee.

I also should have said, congrats on your match Cowme! What a relief.

I agree with MZ on this, different strokes ya know. I saw some g-d awful programs while interviewing and I knew I'd rather take another year and try again than go to those programs. Why? I'd be incredibly unhappy. How could I be so sure? I definitely had my reasons. Perhaps this isn't the philosophy of everyone but I didn't work so hard the last 4 years to settle on a program. I'd rather take my chances again the following year.

Yeah, I've already had the experience of hating my job; I'm not trying to sign up for that again.

 

[GTP]

...looks around for Dr Fraud....

 

[Slack3r]

Early after the match there are a lot of emotions. Getting rejected by x programs in the millisecond when you open that envelope/email is very emotional. Its depressing to lose all that hope all in one second, and far more emotionally exhausting than applying to med school when the rejections come over several months..

Eh, I'd rather the instant rejection. I hated waiting around 7 months to have schools finally reject me. That was much more taxing on the psyche that the actual rejection: the ****ing waiting sucks.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Eh, I'd rather the instant rejection. I hated waiting around 7 months to have schools finally reject me. That was much more taxing on the psyche that the actual rejection: the ****ing waiting sucks.

Well you still wait 7 months for interviews/rejections just like med school. Then you wait 7 months on the ones that did interview you because you don't find out if they liked you until match day.

Its not instant rejection so much as all at once rejection.

 

[drizzt3117]

You know, there is always the option of applying to anesthesia pgy-2 positions as a board certified internist... 2 extra years isn't the end of the world.

 

[aspiringOSTEO]

1

 

[alwaysaangel]

You know, there is always the option of applying to anesthesia pgy-2 positions as a board certified internist... 2 extra years isn't the end of the world.

No its not the end of the world, but thats also not a guaranteed path. The match gets harder every year, especially on anyone who isn't an MS4 med student. Not saying its impossible, but its certainly not something you could count on.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

You know, there is always the option of applying to anesthesia pgy-2 positions as a board certified internist... 2 extra years isn't the end of the world.

Sure but one would be applying out of the match and there are far fewer spots and thus chances than by going through the match. No one is guaranteed a PGy-2 spot just because they already hold board credentials.