my friends from LIU and buffalo university are even struggling to get hired from these big chains. great grades and everything but they're getting discouraged and applying to MD programs in New york and NJ. at least with an MD and residency you're guaranteed a job
This needs to be said- all of you who did a Residency were scammed
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my friends from LIU and buffalo university are even struggling to get hired from these big chains. great grades and everything but they're getting discouraged and applying to MD programs in New york and NJ. at least with an MD and residency you're guaranteed a job
Retail is saturated in many areas now...I see very few opening in city that I want to move. Lots of hospital staff position require years of experience or PGY1/2. I guess I may have to work part time pharmacy and work other non-pharmacy related jobs if can't get a full time position. I see residency as an option to open more doors and make one more competitive. But I disagree what ASHP pushes for the requirement for all future students, that's ridiculous.
When it comes to residency vs retail my issue is with the schools. At my school those of us that wanted to work retail were looked down upon throughout all 4 years, it was pretty bad. We had some instructors that would outright insult us calling us con artists and fake pharmacists and they couldn't wait until society figures that out. It infested the minds of some of our classmates when they started with the, "only idiots work in retail" and the superiority complexes that developed. It was a real shame that all of this started at the top and eventually were a part of every class it felt like.
Our school pushes it really hard too... I think a lot of the class sees through it though. What bothers me is EVERY guest speaker we've ever had was some PGY2 resident. Out of the 10 or 20 guest speakers I've ever had to listen to literally one of them was a retail pharmacist and the only reason he was there was because he was an indi owner focusing on an "underserved" community.
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People in academia are like that everywhere. "Clinical" is what they do, so its all they talk about. The truth is, I help more people on a day to day basis in retail than I ever did in a hospital. I might make some great intervention like once a month that I felt really impacted the patient in 50/50 clincal/staff. Every day in retail, I directly impact the lives of people who just want reassurance...they want some advice...they want to know how to save some money. Sure, the general public sucks...but dealing with nurses and their damned union armor sucks, too. I consider it a 1:1. Sure, if you want to do kinetics and walk around looking at charts making minor recommendations while very rarely talking to patients...do hospital. A lot of people like it. I couldn't stand it because of the toxic office politics that run rampant in those types of environments. At least in retail we have camaraderie and we don't have to worry about back stabbers/gossipers/whathaveyou. Honestly, there just isn't time for it. In trade, we deal with the bosses. Which, again, I see as a 1:1 tradeoff.
I got that attitude when I started working at a mail-order place when I was in school, and when I found out during rotations that I would indeed be promoted to pharmacist upon graduation, I kept my mouth shut regarding where I was going to work. I would say "I have a job" and that was it. I mean, we're talking about preceptors who refused to answer questions, people who stopped making eye contact, wouldn't sit with me in the cafeteria, etc.
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And that's a shame, where pharmacy faculty should be happy for good employment. It's just snobbery and lack of self-worth that makes anyone look down on a credible job in the business. And no, I'm not one to talk up clinical or even academia. I consider them niche jobs just like industry and nuclear. What I think the curriculum should be focused on is basically how to cope with working in dispensing (and also not being a PITA/snob/incompetent at work, as we have too many of those).
It'd be nice if there were some counterpoint to some of those matters as the preparation for pharmacists should be toward those careers that are the likely ones for pharmacists:
1. Chain retail - Easily employs the majority
2. Basement institutional pharmacy
3. High throughput closed-shop (mail-order, home health/infusion, compounding, hospice/nursing home outpatient)
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I've seen professors and preceptors fuel this fake retail versus clinical internecine bull****, but it's probably far more pervasive at selective state schools with small classes (as opposed to retail mills) as it may be seen as a "waste" of your education if you just go into retail.
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I dunno, I'm easy, I wanted to be able to sit down at work and get paid more, so I did residency to work hospital. Why is that so difficult for people to understand? I'm going to break even on my lower PGY-1 salary this month (3 year mark after PGY-1 done) based on my average hourly rate vs. that of retail. Maybe 4 years if you discount to NPV and do all that stuff but seeing as inflation is < 2% i'm just going to ignore that for now.
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Where do you work that clinical/hospital pays more than retail? Here it's about $10 an hour less for hospital pharmacists vs. retail.
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You know, there is such a thing as a PGY2 in a non "clinical" area, where you don't have to beg and plead a physician to actually do something other than chase INRs and bowl regimens all day.
Do a little bit more research next time and you'll see that one of these specialties is one of the most in demand pharmacy specialties, fast tracks you to where you want to be had you went the staffing route....and oh, it pays more than the messily pill mill corporate puppet pharmacy manager.
But please...continue explaining to us how terrible of a life decision we made for not ever having to work another weekend or holiday post residency and earning a higher salary over the course of our 30-35 year careers.
Do a little bit more research next time and you'll see that one of these specialties is one of the most in demand pharmacy specialties, fast tracks you to where you want to be had you went the staffing route....and oh, it pays more than the messily pill mill corporate puppet pharmacy manager.
But please...continue explaining to us how terrible of a life decision we made for not ever having to work another weekend or holiday post residency and earning a higher salary over the course of our 30-35 year careers.
The only state that pays hospital more than retail: California. His statement doesn't really apply to most of us.
Hey now, don't leave the rest of us hanging! Spill the beans.
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Not everyone has the same priorities. The choice to do a residency comes easier to some folks, i.e. there is a certain amount of privilege that goes along with being able to prioritize additional postgraduate training over making more money upfront. If someone 1) doesn't have much school debt or any dependents to support, 2) isn't interested in any of the job options available right out of pharmacy school, and 3) wants to spend more time figuring out exactly what they want to do when they grow up within a structured learning environment, residency is a pretty good option. Sure, you can argue those folks shouldn't have gone to pharmacy school to begin with, but hindsight 20/20, and for some people completing a residency allows them to make the most of their situation. With a bit of an imagination and some ambition, there are a lot of things one can do with the experiences and relationships they develop during a residency that doesn't have anything to do with wanting to work a hospital pharmacist job specifically. Granted, you should have realistic expectations and goals and have done your research about the specific residency program you're applying to - some programs are not as robust or structured as others, and could very much end up being a waste of time and money. That doesn't mean it makes sense to completely discount all residency programs and to discourage everyone from exploring it as an option.
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You make more than 150k year? Damn, do work son.
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After you take out cost of living its way less then retail out of California.
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Because you take into account cost of living for the hospital pharmacist but not the retail guy downstairs?
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No Im doing a comparison of a job that has very few openings nationwide and absolutely no need for a residency to jobs outside the ridiculous cost of living in California.
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This reads ever better if you look at the expression of your avatar.
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dont keep us in the dark. what specialty?
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lol whatever numbers massaging fits your bias
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The main point I'm getting at is, no one should do a residency just to chase positions that few will get.
I would argue that you should, but only if it's because you have a burning desire to work that job. Don't do it for any false perceptions of prestige, or because your school and fellow students have convinced you that you have to be some sort of "clinical specialist" to be fulfilled in life.
You just need to be prepared to do whatever it takes to get that job. If you aren't willing to uproot and move 1500 miles away to get your foot in the door, then you shouldn't risk it. The problem is people just expect these things to be given to them, as if you deserve it because you put in the time. Everyone thinks they're special. I think the right person with the right motivation makes it worthwhile, but our profession is full of clueless young people that float through their training without doing research and get smacked hard in the face by reality. I'm just glad I was nerdy enough to read this forum before I even applied, so I knew what I was walking into.
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Just for discussion's sake, according to this study, you would be the exception if you are PGY-2 trained and earning more over the course of your career.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4678742/
Well that's a letdown.
That's the one area I just can't see myself getting involved with. You're basically on call 24/7 and have to deal with the crazy people who probably work for you. I'd probably be decent at since I have good people skills, but I think I'm content just being responsible for my own work. IT during the week with some side staffing on the weekend is working out pretty well and is very low stress. Still, >150k is tempting.
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Real talk. I hit the jackpot, and I know it.
Even if I have to page every time an APRN uses the same prn indication for Tylenol and Motrin.
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I'm sorry to butt into this conversation so late, but doesn't your post actually confirm the OP's argument? You did a residency but you couldn't even get a hospital staff position when you moved to a different state (and this is in spite of the fact that you did it at the VA, which has a nationwide network of hospitals and clinics). You spent all that time and effort doing a PGY-1 and it didn't amount to anything...
I've seen a number of people do hospital residencies... and end up in retail. I'm sorry to say this, but your role as a clinical pharmacist was just fancy LARPing at a government institution. These so-called clinical pharmacy positions are shallow imitations of what physicians do.
Jeez, what's up with people who do residencies and their need to boast about getting CONFIDENCE™. And with the explosion in residency programs producing a deluge of PGY-1's and PGY-2's, you may not be able to get back into the hospital if you stay too long in retail.
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This part is certainly not true.
There are plenty of director(s) / associate director positions, and they all have specific job responsibilities. If you work at a regional medical center / critical access hospital...yeah, sure what you said is true. You would be the Pharmacy Director essentially responsible for steering the ship in the right direction and making sure things remain afloat. Larger facilities become much more complex, much more interesting, and have several more layers of help.
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Best section of your quote was the LARPing reference lol
I can think of two for whom it was a good idea, because of the kind of jobs they were interested in. The others? Not so much.
I like this discussion. I'm all about the money. I finished pharmschool debt-free, because I was out hustling in the real world while the nerds were studying for meaningless quizzes on material they will never see again.
10 years ago, you can get jobs anywhere, and retail/hospital were making about the same amount. Now hospital makes way more, about 30-40k/yr in my area. I don't care about clinical this or dispensing that, just show me the money and I'll do whatever it takes.
The trick in working retail is finding outpatient pharmacies where their pay is tied to an inpatient job; like a large hospital with a small outpatient pharmacy. They usually don't have a separate pay scale for their outpatient pharmacists, so they get paid the same as hospital. Funny thing is, people don't even realize we have an outpatient pharmacy. We've had a pharmacist opening for over a year without any applicants. It's pretty easy work. And it starts at $74/hr.
10 years ago, you can get jobs anywhere, and retail/hospital were making about the same amount. Now hospital makes way more, about 30-40k/yr in my area. I don't care about clinical this or dispensing that, just show me the money and I'll do whatever it takes.
The trick in working retail is finding outpatient pharmacies where their pay is tied to an inpatient job; like a large hospital with a small outpatient pharmacy. They usually don't have a separate pay scale for their outpatient pharmacists, so they get paid the same as hospital. Funny thing is, people don't even realize we have an outpatient pharmacy. We've had a pharmacist opening for over a year without any applicants. It's pretty easy work. And it starts at $74/hr.
where is this lol
I've seen more of the always on call type of directors, but I'm in pediatrics and we tend to be smaller hospitals with less staffing. Maybe I should expand my horizons a bit.
Yeah the few director's I have seen personally (3) none have really been on call and they all had sweet schedules.
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Another Cali person.....might as well be a pharmacist from a different country. Their experiences don't apply outside their state.
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Great...someone else shooting down someone else's career. It's like an ortho surgeon telling a PCP "you wasted your degree since you don't make nearly as much as I do." Can't we all just get along and respect each other's career choices?
I can't say for sure whether or not it's true in other states. But I can tell you we have a huge oversupply of pharmacists in our area, but it seems people just line up to the traditional retail stores and skip us altogether. That was my point though, to explore all options. These hospitals typically have better benefits and much better vacation policies.
My favorite Kaiser memory.....RNs waving their W2s in the faces of our hospitalists going "Ha ha ha I make way more money than you."
$250k-300k....lots of hours but that's pretty good with an associate's degree working Med-Surg. Very classy people, I hold them in the highest regard.
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But people live in nice urban areas for a reason...some of us actually like to enjoy life.
Note to self: Become a Kaiser med-surg nurse.
Not me, buddy!
....
Ugh. Moving back to my rural home state for dream job experience has been rough. I miss being able to walk to destinations, now everything I want to do is at least a 30 minute drive.
Cali? PM me? i'll apply lol serious
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Oh I agree......hospital def affords a better working lifestyle (general stress, vacations, etc), but outside of Cali, most hospital pharmacists are making 20-30k+ less a year than retail.
The Kaiser RNs that I know make nowhere close to that amount. How many hours are they pulling each week?
A ton of hours. Lots of doubles. Ever see their pay schedule? check out how much RN4s make..got day shift people making 80+/hr. short hour differential 25%. The smart ones get a fully benefitted part time position, then sign up for short hour at Kaiser and make the mega bucks.
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We pay nurses $250 just to show up to shifts (in hardship situations), plus OT which typically boosts their hourly take into the $50-75/hr range depending on their specialty/classification. If it's a short hour shift (4hrs) that could come out to $137/hr.
That's cheap from an institutional standpoint considering the fines from a failure to meet state-imposed statutory nursing ratios.
That's also cheaper than recruiting, hiring, and training a registry nurse if your hardship situations aren't all the time (but sometimes they run for long stretches).
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That's cheap from an institutional standpoint considering the fines from a failure to meet state-imposed statutory nursing ratios.
That's also cheaper than recruiting, hiring, and training a registry nurse if your hardship situations aren't all the time (but sometimes they run for long stretches).
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