this timeline confuses me!!!! please help

[medstud16]

Hi guys

I just finished a master's SMP and am waiting for my final grades. I am taking my mcat Aug 7 so schools will get the score a month from then in Sept. When should I turn in my primary?? I know asap but I have been waiting for my final grades from this sem to come up since I just finished this week and am wondering if I can take till the end of next week to revise my app and then submit it. Does it matter if it is a little late since schools won't look at my app until Sept when my MCAT is in or is that not how it works.

Someone please help I am lost! First time applying and with the weird SMP timeline I want to make sure I am not misinterpreting something.

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[candbgirl]

You could apply to one school just to get verified but getting your MCAT score in September is late and your secondaries will be even later. Have you thought about taking a gap year and applying next cycle early in the cycle. Of course this is only a suggestion because you have shared absolutely no information with us. I’m only speaking on the calendar timeframe.

 

[medstud16]

You could apply to one school just to get verified but getting your MCAT score in September is late and your secondaries will be even later. Have you thought about taking a gap year and applying next cycle early in the cycle. Of course this is only a suggestion because you have shared absolutely no information with us. I’m only speaking on the calendar timeframe.

Hey, I was planning on doing secondaries over the summer so that they are done early. And yes of course I have considered it! This is the timeline the school I did my SMP at gave us and what most of the master's students do I guess who do retake the MCAT. Would having the secondaries pre-written put me in a better place? I am okay applying again if this cycle does not work out great since I know the late timeline is not to my advantage.

 

[candbgirl]

Hey, I was planning on doing secondaries over the summer so that they are done early. And yes of course I have considered it! This is the timeline the school I did my SMP at gave us and what most of the master's students do I guess who do retake the MCAT. Would having the secondaries pre-written put me in a better place? I am okay applying again if this cycle does not work out great since I know the late timeline is not to my advantage.

Well sure but you still can’t submit them until you receive them from the schools. Some schools automatically send out a secondaries to everyone and some screen. And what if you spend all of this time writing secondaries and then don’t have the MCAT score you think you will. But in reality, until,August your focus should be on the MCAT not secondaries.

 

[medstud16]

Well sure but you still can’t submit them until you receive them from the schools. Some schools automatically send out a secondaries to everyone and some screen. And what if you spend all of this time writing secondaries and then don’t have the MCAT score you think you will. But in reality, until,August your focus should be on the MCAT not secondaries.

That definitely makes sense. That is where I'm stuck - whether I should try applying and anticipate I might have to again or pass on it for now.

 

[candbgirl]

That definitely makes sense. That is where I'm stuck - whether I should try applying and anticipate I might have to again or pass on it for now.

You really only want to apply one time with the best possible application. The application that screams “pick me”. Med schools will be there next year and for years to come. Each year only about 42% of all applicants are accepted to any school. That means that 56%+ of all applicants are outright rejected. Some of those rejected have stellar applications.
So only you can decide what to do but do it once and do it right.

 

[LizzyM]

You would be foolish to be focusing on anything except the MCAT between now and when you take it. After you take the MCAT, you would be applying to schools blindly before you get your score back so there is that consideration, even if you pre-write secondaries anticipating that you will submit to schools the day you get your scores and then wait for the secondaries to roll in. That is going to put you very close to the school's deadlines for secondaries and with an application that already required a SMP to boost your GPA (I presume) you may not be the type of applicant who can afford to apply that late in the cycle.

Best bet: take the MCAT, get a job and prepare to have a great application submitted week 1 of the next cycle. (Don't apply on day 1, give yourself time to proof-read multiple times.)

 

[medstud16]

@LizzyM @candbgirl This all makes perfect sense. I guess if I am questioning the timeline myself, it probably is not a good idea. I am a non-trad and 1st-time applicant so I definitely want to turn in the best app after all this work to change careers.

Thank you all!! I really appreciate it.

 

[LondonVibes]

You really only want to apply one time with the best possible application. The application that screams “pick me”. Med schools will be there next year and for years to come. Each year only about 42% of all applicants are accepted to any school. That means that 56%+ of all applicants are outright rejected. Some of those rejected have stellar applications.
So only you can decide what to do but do it once and do it right.

Do they really have stellar applications tho? Don’t most of the 56% have something that could be a weakness (e.g. MCAT score, low ECs, etc)?

 

[LizzyM]

Do they really have stellar applications tho? Don’t most of the 56% have something that could be a weakness (e.g. MCAT score, low ECs, etc)?

I believe that at least half of those who do not get in anywhere could succeed if admitted to medical school. The problem is not that the application was lacking in some way that would indicate that the applicant is a high risk candidate or unacceptable for admission but that there are too many qualified applicants for the available training slots. So, when the cycle ends the students who have climbed the highest on the broad staircase according to the strength of their application and interview will be admitted and many very fine and capable applicants will find themselves locked out.

This reminds me of the letters of recommendation that come from some committees. You'll read one that says that the applicant is highly qualified and oooh, you are impressed. Then you read another from the same committee and the applicant is "very highly qualified". Oh! But wait, there is another described as "exceptionally qualified" and you think that is the best only to find that the ultimate descriptor is "most exceptionally qualified", Turns out, "higly qualified" is fifth tier with a lower tier being "qualified" and the lowest being recommend with reservations. So yeah, there are steller people who don't get in because there were other applicants who were even better.

 

[LondonVibes]

I believe that at least half of those who do not get in anywhere could succeed if admitted to medical school. The problem is not that the application was lacking in some way that would indicate that the applicant is a high risk candidate or unacceptable for admission but that there are too many qualified applicants for the available training slots. So, when the cycle ends the students who have climbed the highest on the broad staircase according to the strength of their application and interview will be admitted and many very fine and capable applicants will find themselves locked out.

This reminds me of the letters of recommendation that come from some committees. You'll read one that says that the applicant is highly qualified and oooh, you are impressed. Then you read another from the same committee and the applicant is "very highly qualified". Oh! But wait, there is another described as "exceptionally qualified" and you think that is the best only to find that the ultimate descriptor is "most exceptionally qualified", Turns out, "higly qualified" is fifth tier with a lower tier being "qualified" and the lowest being recommend with reservations. So yeah, there are steller people who don't get in because there were other applicants who were even better.

Capable of medical school and actually meeting the unwritten requirements of medical school are two different things. But you have a good point that medical schools have limited seats which can force qualified people out. It is interesting that you don’t hear many stories of people with high stats and good ECs who are rejected though. By and large, most rejections seem to be related to ECs while there are a few people who are having trouble in the GPA/MCAT department.

 

[KnightDoc]

Capable of medical school and actually meeting the unwritten requirements of medical school are two different things. But you have a good point that medical schools have limited seats which can force qualified people out. It is interesting that you don’t hear many stories of people with high stats and good ECs who are rejected though. By and large, most rejections seem to be related to ECs while there are a few people who are having trouble in the GPA/MCAT department.

It bears keeping in mind that "unwritten requirements" are merely the product of the embarrassment of riches @LizzyM describes in the applicant pool. A mere generation ago, all you needed was a good GPA and MCAT. ALL the extra stuff has nothing to do with succeeding in med school or as a physician, and everything to do with distinguishing yourself from the crowd in a very competitive field.

Why is it interesting that you don't hear rejection stories from people who check all the boxes and find themselves at the top of @LizzyM's staircase? That's exactly the result we all expect! You are correct -- due to the level of competition, most people complaining about rejections are those who are objectively very capable of doing well, yet who find themselves on the outside looking in due to deficiencies in subjective areas that were not even considered in prior eras.

For the record, there are plenty of people who have issues in the GPA/MCAT department. In fact, around half of all applicants find themselves in the bottom half. They don't complain if they are unsuccessful, however, because the metrics are objective, published and well known, whereas almost everyone subjectively thinks they have spectacular, or at least sufficient, ECs.

 

[LizzyM]

Capable of medical school and actually meeting the unwritten requirements of medical school are two different things. But you have a good point that medical schools have limited seats which can force qualified people out. It is interesting that you don’t hear many stories of people with high stats and good ECs who are rejected though. By and large, most rejections seem to be related to ECs while there are a few people who are having trouble in the GPA/MCAT department.

There are those 15% of super high GPA/MCAT applicants who don't get in. I've interviewed plenty of them and seen the post-interview files of even more. They are, most of them, deficient not in ECs but in personal characteristics. I've seen as many high stats applicants at the bottom of the staircase as at the top when the cycle ends.

 

[KnightDoc]

There are those 15% of super high GPA/MCAT applicants who don't get in. I've interviewed plenty of them and seen the post-interview files of even more. They are, most of them, deficient not in ECs but in personal characteristics. I've seen as many high stats applicants at the bottom of the staircase as at the top when the cycle ends.

Not to nitpick, but that seems like a disturbingly high proportion of otherwise top of the staircase applicants who are personally deficient.

Conventional wisdom (at least since I dove in a few years ago) is that the majority of the 15% find themselves there due to deficient ECs or terrible, top-heavy school lists. Are you really saying, from your perch at the top of admissions food chain, that the conventional wisdom is incorrect, and 1 in 7 high stat, all box checking candidates really cannot hold eye contact, dress appropriately, think on their feet, act like human beings, etc.? If so, that's shocking and amazing. Also, I'm not sure if that's good news for me, or if I have to take a closer look in the mirror!

 

[gyngyn]

Not to nitpick, but that seems like a disturbingly high proportion of otherwise top of the staircase applicants who are personally deficient.

These candidates would not have gotten an interview with a deficiency in EC's (except maybe at their own public school in a smaller state).
Very high stats applicants are required to have a "top heavy" application to maximize their chances...

 

[LizzyM]

Not to nitpick, but that seems like a disturbingly high proportion of otherwise top of the staircase applicants who are personally deficient.

Conventional wisdom (at least since I dove in a few years ago) is that the majority of the 15% find themselves there due to deficient ECs or terrible, top-heavy school lists. Are you really saying, from your perch at the top of admissions food chain, that the conventional wisdom is incorrect, and 1 in 7 high stat, all box checking candidates really cannot hold eye contact, dress appropriately, think on their feet, act like human beings, etc.? If so, that's shocking and amazing. Also, I'm not sure if that's good news for me, or if I have to take a closer look in the mirror!

I'm only talking about the top candidates that get interviews (which is most of them at my school) . Equal numbers would be at the top and the bottom of the list with quite a few more in the top third of the list (admitted) but not in the top 5% of the list of interviewed candidates. And by top candidates I'm saying 4.0/524. And a surprising number in the bottom 5% of the list were "top candidates" based on grades and scores but who bombed the interview.

 

[KnightDoc]

These candidates would not have gotten an interview with a deficiency in EC's (except maybe at their own public school in a smaller state).
Very high stats applicants are required to have a "top heavy" application to maximize their chances...

Yeah, I was referring to the widely referenced AAMC Table A-23.

I assume that far more than 15% of interviewees at both yours and @LizzyM's school do not receive As, and that the vast majority of them would be classified as "high stat" (I was thinking of the 3.8+/518+ break point used in the table rather than the 4.0/524 used by @LizzyM). My point was meant to be more general, and less directed at the very top schools, where, I am well aware, a lot more than 15% of interviewees are high stat, and a lot more than 15% of them are not accepted.

So, the question remains, nationally, across all schools, whether or not invited for interviews, are the 13.4% in the 3.8+/518+ grid who find themselves with zero As in that situation mostly due to interpersonal issues, which seems surprising, or, more often than not, because their ECs are weak or their school lists are too top heavy? I have been led to believe it's the latter.

 

[LizzyM]

Do you remember the thread about a week ago that segued from cookie cutters to robots? That 15% include quite a few blank-faced robots; they may be brilliant and excellent academic performers but they can't engage in the give and take of a friendly converation, see things strictly in black and white, are rigid in their thinking as circumstances change, in short, not good candidates.

 

[KnightDoc]

Do you remember the thread about a week ago that segued from cookie cutters to robots? That 15% include quite a few blank-faced robots; they may be brilliant and excellent academic performers but they can't engage in the give and take of a friendly converation, see things strictly in black and white, are rigid in their thinking as circumstances change, in short, not good candidates.

Yes! I know exactly what you are talking about.

The disconnect is that you are referring specifically to interviewees at your school, whereas I was thinking about the 15% of high stat (3.8+/518+) applicants reported by AAMC to have zero As every year. They are way below your "high stat" cutoff. Many of them never receive interviews at your tier of school.

And, in fact, that is the rub for many of them. They restrict themselves to T20 based on their stats, and it later turns out that their apps aren't nearly as impressive as their advisors led them to believe. They subsequently receive few IIs and zero As.

For them, it's not always that they bomb their interviews. It's that their apps weren't as strong as they thought, and they didn't apply widely enough. And, of course, some of them bomb their interviews. But this is a different thing than 4.0/524s bombing interviews at T10s, where, by definition, the majority of your interview pool comes from that neighborhood in the AAMC table, and the majority of your interview pool also do not receive As.

 

[LizzyM]

True. And I made that infamous score that bears my name because I couldn't bear the stories of 3.8/517 applicants who thought applying to six T20 plus their state schools was "applying broadly" and then they couldn't understand why they were empty handed at the end of the season.

 

[LondonVibes]

These candidates would not have gotten an interview with a deficiency in EC's (except maybe at their own public school in a smaller state).
Very high stats applicants are required to have a "top heavy" application to maximize their chances...

To what extent is this true? I’ve been put on low priority WL for ECs explicitly by at least one school. For reference, I had bare minimum hours in all categories and no other ECs.

 

[KnightDoc]

To what extent is this true? I’ve been put on low priority WL for ECs explicitly by at least one school. For reference, I had bare minimum hours in all categories and no other ECs.

Hard to say. I don't presume to speak specifically for @gyngyn, but my understanding, both from two years of participation on SDN as well as from speaking to the person running the premed advising office at my UG, is that NO SCHOOL wastes an II on someone who is not legitimately under consideration for admission, other than maybe as a courtesy to someone connected to a VIP. Is that you? If not, whatever was going on with your ECs was not deemed "deficient" by the adcom.

That said, again, go back to @LizzyM's magic staircase. Post-II, your ECs, along with the rest of your application, caused you to be placed on the low priority WL. No school accepts everyone they interview, and some people interviewed are going to have better stats, better ECs, better essays and better interviews than others. Your ECs might have been fine, if only other people had weaker interviews, stats, ECs, etc.

It all goes into the hopper, and some people receive As, WLs and Rs. The fact that your ECs were deemed, after the fact, to have pulled your application down doesn't mean they were deficient when you received your II. It is equally possible that another candidate with stronger other elements in their application, also had bare minimum hours, but maybe with more impressive activities with greater impact, and achieved different results. If adcoms knew in the beginning of the process how everything was going to shake out, they could do a lot less work, see a lot less people, and end up with exactly the same class, down to the last person.

 

[Moko]

NO SCHOOL intentionally wastes an II on someone who is not legitimately under consideration for admission

FTFY.

The screening process is unfortunately not perfect. Every year, there are some applicants who are inappropriately invited to interview: those with subpar applications who are inevitably rejected despite great interview performance(s). These applicants typically have an uncommon story or experience that screeners erroneously believe will overcome the many deficiencies in their application. These uncommon situations end up wasting the applicant's and committee's time and resources, and serve as teaching moments for screeners. Of course, these applicants have no way of knowing whether they are mistakenly invited or the diamond in the rough.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hi guys

I just finished a master's SMP and am waiting for my final grades. I am taking my mcat Aug 7 so schools will get the score a month from then in Sept. When should I turn in my primary?? I know asap but I have been waiting for my final grades from this sem to come up since I just finished this week and am wondering if I can take till the end of next week to revise my app and then submit it. Does it matter if it is a little late since schools won't look at my app until Sept when my MCAT is in or is that not how it works.

Someone please help I am lost! First time applying and with the weird SMP timeline I want to make sure I am not misinterpreting something.

I completely agree with those who advised you to focus now on the MCAT, take a gap year in which you get a job, and then apply next cycle with all your ducks lined up.

I just want to say that if you were submitting next week, that's not "late."