Thoughts about Elizabeth Warren's New Health Plan?

[deleted480308]

Medicine needs to stop being a business. Like law enforcement or the fire department it needs to be an essential service and free from profiteering. Doctors should go into medicine with similar intentions as a firefighter i.e public service. No more $400 K medical school loans. Similarly doctors salaries need cut drastically. Every doc gets paid in a 100-150 K range and the reason someone goes into neurosurgery is because he loves the field.
That’s one way to make M4A affordable take money out of healthcare. If you want to make money go to Wall Street don’t come to medicine.

Graduate residency at 33 after 7yrs of 80hrs/wk for $125k?!?

You never worked in marketing did you?

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[Cornfed101]

To make a correction before people continue to incorrectly classify our form of government: We have a republic, not a democracy. There is a large difference. When we elect the officials and don’t actually vote on the actual day to day minutia, it is much easier to lose control to the government.

 

[TAVR4life]

Even if Bernie wins, a lot needs to fall into place for him to get M4A and all his others plans of free stuff passed. Repubes would need to lose Senate, Democraps would need to maintain the House. There are billion dollar industries at play that are going to fight and lobby like crazy. There will be obstructive politics. Even Obama couldn’t pass the version of Obamacare he wanted and couldn’t even get a $3 billion website to work properly. Took years to implement it. Of course it CAN theoretically happen which is scary.

I’m just skeptical M4A will pass as currently proposed. I do think the easiest politic target will be to target physician salary, everyone seems to be in agreement when it comes to that including other doctors, NPs/PAs, hospital admins, government, media, insurance companies and patients. Doctors don’t have any qualms in destroying their own fields just look at what their respective leadership has done to fields like rad onc and pathology and mid level encroachment.


Given the dramatic rise in popularity of Bernie and Warren and AOC since 2016 I do think it’s inevitable that we will eventually get a massive overhaul of healthcare system in the next 10-15 years. It will be incremental though, Obamacare was the first step. Next step is to offer a public option.

 

[Nephro critical care]

Lot of neuro/spine surgery is all BS. Needs a lot more scrutiny. In a M4A system we could give these patients what they really need : a kick up the backside and go get a job.

 

[deleted480308]

We waste a lot

Lot of neuro/spine surgery is all BS. Needs a lot more scrutiny. In a M4A system we could give these patients what they really need : a kick up the backside and go get a job.

We could do that now with the existing medicare and we don’t soooooo unlikely

 

[TAVR4life]

We waste a lot

Lot of neuro/spine surgery is all BS. Needs a lot more scrutiny. In a M4A system we could give these patients what they really need : a kick up the backside and go get a job.

Just look at the VA which is an example of how federally run healthcare system is going to look. It remains highly inefficient and the amount of tests ordered is higher than you might think. Doctors get paid much much less in the VA system.

 

[Nephro critical care]

We could do that now with the existing medicare and we don’t soooooo unlikely

Although doctors salaries are only a part of healthcare spending all these other costs i.e pharma/hospital costs/NH stays goes through us. We are paid a lot just to keep our mouths shut so that the bigger players Hospital / Insurance / Pharma CEOs / Wall Street can keep playing.

 

[deleted480308]

Although doctors salaries are only a part of healthcare spending all these other costs i.e pharma/hospital costs/NH stays goes through us. We are paid a lot just to keep our mouths shut so that the bigger players Hospital / Insurance / Pharma CEOs / Wall Street can keep playing.

Can I get in on that sweet “shut up” money you just invented?

 

[findoc]

Medicare 4 All is absolutely the wrong direction. Capitalism in healthcare is essential. The profit motive ensures the business side of medicine operates efficiently. Take that away, and you'll get a massive growth of inefficient overhead and waste. That would be Medicare 4 All---massively inefficient and wasteful. They would have no incentive not to be!

Our goal should be to facilitate competition and innovation in healthcare. That is the only way we can reduce costs while improving quality. That is how it has happened in all other parts of the economy. Medicare 4 All would KILL this, halt progress, and stunt our growth.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Medicare 4 All is absolutely the wrong direction. Capitalism in healthcare is essential. The profit motive ensures the business side of medicine operates efficiently. Take that away, and you'll get a massive growth of inefficient overhead and waste. That would be Medicare 4 All---massively inefficient and wasteful. They would have no incentive not to be!

Our goal should be to facilitate competition and innovation in healthcare. That is the only way we can reduce costs while improving quality. That is how it has happened in all other parts of the economy. Medicare 4 All would KILL this, halt progress, and stunt our growth.

I believe that ship has sailed.

 

[VincentAdultman]

Efficiency? You're saying right now we have an efficient healthcare system?

Ummm, no?

 

[findoc]

Efficiency? You're saying right now we have an efficient healthcare system?

Not by a long shot, but the inefficiencies that exist now are primarily due to the extensive government regulation and cronyism in healthcare.

You're saying by removing the profit motive we can make healthcare system more efficient?

Imagine if we had handed over the personal computing industry to the government in the late 90s. You really think we'd have iPads, iPhones, Macbooks and all the other wonderful technology like we do today? Heck no. We'd be lucky to have flip phones.

Let's put our focus on developing new methods of providing care, allow entrepreneurs to try new things, experiment a little bit and see what works. That is much more exciting and will create a much brighter future than bloated government-run healthcare!

 

[VincentAdultman]

Not by a long shot, but the inefficiencies that exist now are primarily due to the extensive government regulation and cronyism in healthcare.

You're saying by removing the profit motive we can make healthcare system more efficient?

Imagine if we had handed over the personal computing industry to the government in the late 90s. You really think we'd have iPads, iPhones, Macbooks and all the other wonderful technology like we do today? Heck no. We'd be lucky to have flip phones.

Let's put our focus on developing new methods of providing care, allow entrepreneurs to try new things, experiment a little bit and see what works. That is much more exciting and will create a much brighter future than bloated government-run healthcare!

iPhones? Wonderful technology?

There’s a bridge too far.

 

[TAVR4life]

Unfortunately hospital administration and some rogue for-profit physicians have really screwed us over.

$20,000 bills for a ED visit for a routine visit? Media and patients blame physicians for that.

 

[Gyuji]

Those time periods have actually not shown that capitalism causes poverty

Only in the warped-minded world of libertarians.

 

[deleted480308]

Only in the warped-minded world of libertarians.

Capitalism has significantly raised the standard of living

 

[Gyuji]

Not by a long shot, but the inefficiencies that exist now are primarily due to the extensive government regulation and cronyism in healthcare.

You're saying by removing the profit motive we can make healthcare system more efficient?

Imagine if we had handed over the personal computing industry to the government in the late 90s. You really think we'd have iPads, iPhones, Macbooks and all the other wonderful technology like we do today? Heck no. We'd be lucky to have flip phones.

Let's put our focus on developing new methods of providing care, allow entrepreneurs to try new things, experiment a little bit and see what works. That is much more exciting and will create a much brighter future than bloated government-run healthcare!

Then give a healthcare policy proposal to the Republican Party that is better than universal healthcare since Trump and the Republicans don't have one in the mean time.

We already did the laissez-faire style then the right-wing conservative approach of Obamacare.

 

[deleted480308]

Then give a healthcare policy proposal to the Republican Party that is better than universal healthcare since Trump and the Republicans don't have one in the mean time.

We already did the laissez-faire style then the right-wing conservative approach of Obamacare.

We haven’t done laissez faire for generationd

 

[findoc]

I'm not sure what moment you're referring to that the government tried to nationalize the hardware industry. I actually think we agree on this (see above).

This was just a hypothetical. We most definitely would not have the technology we do today. My point is that innovation occurs when entrepreneurs take risks and try to create a better way of doing things.

What would a "trimmed down" healthcare system look like than. What would need to be trimmed away? Because it was trimmed away and look at the issues we're facing now.

I didn't say anything about a trimmed down healthcare system. We wouldn't need to "trim it down" any more than the personal computing industry was trimmed down to get from the PCs of the 90s to what we have today.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Isn't Bernie Sanders a democratic socialist though? And also what governments and countries are you referring to?

I'm not very familiar with history but I think the only democratic socialist countries in a strict sense are the Eastern European countries (ie Denmark). Also, I think you're confounding quite a bit different political systems/styles of governance/schools of thought (democratic socialism with communism/socialism ).

Again, just like some view Trump as a symptoms to issues among rural communities, I think Bernie Sanders' positions and sharp popularity among certain demographics should be an indicator that something is going on among these groups that's resulting in staunch support of a candidate with highly polarized/radical views from our current norms.

The moniker democratic in democratic socialism is a worthless addition. It is putting lipstick on a pig. Whether democratic or not the end result is the same- loss of autonomy and liberty in the form of governmental or collectivist control. This is similar to how democratic the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) is. Most people assume when you add the term democratic to something equates it to a just system. This is wrong. When 4 people are in a room and 3 of them decide to murder the 4th, that is democratic, but not just...

Next, Denmark is not in Eastern Europe...

Denmark is also not a socialist nation. Despite what Bernie would say, Denmark and the Nordic countries in general are based upon market economies. Some of them even have higher indices of economic freedom than the United States. They do have a large burden of social programs but these are only possible by a capitalistic economy with very high tax rates which includes a high income tax and often value added tax.

I agree that's something is going on with millennials. Some of it is indoctrination, some is naivete, some is pure ignorance, and some is normal young adult angst with the current system.

In most of the things that millennials are angry about (and now wsnt government to take over) ironically you can point to governmental intervention as the root cause. Take high student debt burdens for instance: once the government got into the business of money lending, schools had no incentive to keep cost of tuition low. Tuition costs spiral out of control and now we have a debt crisis.

When's the government got involved in regulation of medical care, we now have an increase in administrators of 3,000%, which is where most of the cost in medicine has gone. So when government has caused medical costs to spiral out of control obviously the fix would be to have government completely take over medicine.

 

[Instatewaiter]

An unregulated capitalistic economy is what causes poverty. It's already shown in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century. Reason why the world shifted to Keynesian economics; providing public services, higher wages, and regulated economy. It's already shown that embedded liberalism, another word for Keynesism or capitalistic-socialism, works soon after WW2.

Yeah you're going to have to provide some evidence for these assertions...

I think you're trying to allude to the fact that there are downturns/recessions in any economy. Well before we had capitalism in this country we had large downturns like you're alluding to. Actually they were more frequent.

I Don't disagree that there needs to be some degree of regulation but I think we would disagree on the amount of regulation.

 

[Instatewaiter]

That’s one way to make M4A affordable take money out of healthcare. If you want to make money go to Wall Street don’t come to medicine.

And that is exactly what the smart people will do. No longer will medicine be seen as a good career for somebody who's intelligent. Instead they will go to Wall Street or Engineering. Why on earth would I want to go to school for 15 extra years to make $100,000. I could have become a Plummer and made hundreds of thousands of dollars more over a lifetime when you take those extra years into consideration. This is a dangerous proposition.

Don't believe me, how about a real life example:
In the UK, they can't attract enough young folks to go into medicine. they have to beg, borrow and steal to get foreign physicians to come to England to take care of the population.

 

[Instatewaiter]

We already did the laissez-faire style then the right-wing conservative approach of Obamacare.

Please explain your thinking here... There has been nothing laissez faire about the us approach to health care for 100 years...

We actually have the worst of every system combined. we have a system where the consumer doesn't feel the brunt of the prices because of third-party payors so they don't seek lower prices. Next pricing is opaque. In a given health care system you cannot figure out what a test costs. Next you have too much regulation. Finally there is no incentive to lower the cost.

 

[MOHS_01]

Please explain your thinking here... There has been nothing laissez faire about the us approach to health care for 100 years...

We actually have the worst of every system combined. we have a system where the consumer doesn't feel the brunt of the prices because of third-party payors so they don't seek lower prices. Next pricing is opaque. In a given health care system you cannot figure out what a test costs. Next you have too much regulation. Finally there is no incentive to lower the cost.

Don't hold your breath in expectation of an informed or even nuanced response. Private bad, forced gov template good.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Don't hold your breath in expectation of an informed or even nuanced response. Private bad, forced gov template good.

Unfortunately I know you are right. It is part of the reason Trump was such a force and couldn't be stopped. If one side can use it, so too can the other.

"The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan."

 

[deleted927028]

Unfortunately hospital administration and some rogue for-profit physicians have really screwed us over.

$20,000 bills for a ED visit for a routine visit? Media and patients blame physicians for that.

A friend of mine has expensive PPO insurance. Fell off from the ladder and broke his hand. After the surgery, in addition to his copay and deductibles, he got a $10000 bill from anesthesiologist and $5000 bill from the nurse he brought along. He was shocked and devastated. After some investigation, he found out that the surgeon didn’t use the anesthesiologist from the hospital but brought his friend over who happens to be out of network. That guy brought over his own nurse. This is how the stupid capitalism will work in healthcare. LOOT AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. The gullible Population is ready to suck it up and saying IT IS THE FREEDOM.

 

[deleted927028]

Just look at the VA which is an example of how federally run healthcare system is going to look. It remains highly inefficient and the amount of tests ordered is higher than you might think. Doctors get paid much much less in the VA system.

At least VA won’t bankrupt you for falling sick

 

[deleted480308]

A friend of mine has expensive PPO insurance. Fell off from the ladder and broke his hand. After the surgery, in addition to his copay and deductibles, he got a $10000 bill from anesthesiologist and $5000 bill from the nurse he brought along. He was shocked and devastated. After some investigation, he found out that the surgeon didn’t use the anesthesiologist from the hospital but brought his friend over who happens to be out of network. That guy brought over his own nurse. This is how the stupid capitalism will work in healthcare. LOOT AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. The gullible Population is ready to suck it up and saying IT IS THE FREEDOM.

I’d be all for making the docs submit good faith estimates up front, like car guys do. Problem solved!

A problem that really only exists because everyone assumes a third party pays everything so they don’t pay attention to or ask pricing up front

 

[deleted480308]

At least VA won’t bankrupt you for falling sick

VA shouldn’t bankrupt anyone, it’s very different than a normal healthcare system

 

[deleted927028]

Not by a long shot, but the inefficiencies that exist now are primarily due to the extensive government regulation and cronyism in healthcare.

You're saying by removing the profit motive we can make healthcare system more efficient?

Imagine if we had handed over the personal computing industry to the government in the late 90s. You really think we'd have iPads, iPhones, Macbooks and all the other wonderful technology like we do today? Heck no. We'd be lucky to have flip phones.

Let's put our focus on developing new methods of providing care, allow entrepreneurs to try new things, experiment a little bit and see what works. That is much more exciting and will create a much brighter future than bloated government-run healthcare!

Which government regulation causes the inefficiency? Can you list them out? There is nothing , it’s all pure greed and theft. There is enough competition out there and no one is stopping any innovation. Innovation will never happen if one can charge as much as he wants. You have to do a lot of independent thinking to figure things out. Repeating corporate talk points make you look ignorant

 

[deleted927028]

And that is exactly what the smart people will do. No longer will medicine be seen as a good career for somebody who's intelligent. Instead they will go to Wall Street or Engineering. Why on earth would I want to go to school for 15 extra years to make $100,000. I could have become a Plummer and made hundreds of thousands of dollars more over a lifetime when you take those extra years into consideration. This is a dangerous proposition.

Don't believe me, how about a real life example:
In the UK, they can't attract enough young folks to go into medicine. they have to beg, borrow and steal to get foreign physicians to come to England to take care of the population.

Make the medical education tuition free and offer good salary and benefits to doctors. But people who want to become multimillionaires should be discouraged. We have enough service oriented kids . Canadian doctors earn more than US doctors even today. But they spend less than half than us in total.

 

[deleted480308]

Which government regulation causes the inefficiency? Can you list them out? There is nothing , it’s all pure greed and theft. There is enough competition out there and no one is stopping any innovation. Innovation will never happen if one can charge as much as he wants. You have to do a lot of independent thinking to figure things out. Repeating corporate talk points make you look ignorant

1) silly metrics and absurd amounts of data reporting required
2) mandatory coverages in insurances
3) weeding out the generic albuterol (screw you govt)
4) same for the old epipen

 

[deleted927028]

“Denmark is also not a socialist nation. Despite what Bernie would say, Denmark and the Nordic countries in general are based upon market economies.”

Bernie is offering EXACTLY THE SAME here. Nothing more. But the corporatists and politicians distort everything and terrorize the population

 

[deleted480308]

Make the medical education tuition free and offer good salary and benefits to doctors. But people who want to become multimillionaires should be discouraged. We have enough service oriented kids . Canadian doctors earn more than US doctors even today. But they spend less than half than us in total.

There is nothing better about someone who doesn’t want to be a millionaire, it’s not a negative to have financial aspirations

 

[deleted480308]

“Denmark is also not a socialist nation. Despite what Bernie would say, Denmark and the Nordic countries in general are based upon market economies.”

Bernie is offering EXACTLY THE SAME here. Nothing more. But the corporatists and politicians distort everything and terrorize the population

Govt takeover of healthcare is pretty terrifying, that doesn’t need distortion

 

[deleted927028]

VA shouldn’t bankrupt anyone, it’s very different than a normal healthcare system

So, normal healthcare system can bankrupt sick people, right ?

 

[deleted480308]

So, normal healthcare system can bankrupt sick people, right ? Are you even a human?

The rudeness is unecessary.

Yes, services cost money and if those expenses outpace someone’s assets it can result in bankruptcy or cessation of service.

 

[Gyuji]

Capitalism has significantly raised the standard of living

How? Unregulated capitalism and deregulation is what caused unbalanced economic problems for the majority of people throughout history when the Industrial Revolution started. Heck, one of the main reasons that caused the French Revolution was liberal economics; deregulation of the grain market.

But hey, lived in that libertarian bubble. No one is going to be in favor of these repeated failed right-wing outdated economic ideas once universal healthcare comes into place in the future. Not even working-class conservatives and libertarians.​

 

[deleted480308]

How? Unregulated capitalism and deregulation is what caused unbalanced economic problems for the majority of people throughout history when the Industrial Revolution started. Heck, one of the main reasons that caused the French Revolution was liberal economics; deregulation of the grain market.

But hey, lived in that libertarian bubble. No one is going to be in favor of these repeated failed right-wing outdated economic ideas once universal healthcare comes into place in the future. Not even working-class conservatives and libertarians.​

I would propose you are incorrect about the cause of the French revolution and would suggest you look into a lavishly spending govt with high taxation on a struggling populace

 

[Gyuji]

I would propose you are incorrect about the cause of the French revolution and would suggest you look into a lavishly spending govt with high taxation on a struggling populace

Price of bread skyrocketed.

 

[Dr. Foresight]

Price of bread skyrocketed.

So the example you used to prove your point was the grain market it pre-revolutionary France? Interesting. I dont think its wild to assume that the grain market in pre-revolutionary France doesn't quite correlate with the healthcare system of today.

 

[deleted927028]

I would propose you are incorrect about the cause of the French revolution and would suggest you look into a lavishly spending govt with high taxation on a struggling populace

Taxing and spending is far more efficient and meaningful than handing over all the power to private entities and become impotent. Private companies are not giving anything free. We are paying ten times and twenty times for private services compared to what we would pay as tax. You can look around Canada and European countries for proof. No one is canvassing against capitalism but the 100% Control of private entities. We need capitalism with strict regulations and essential social programs, the right mix. But all the natural resources should be harvested by the government and proceeds should go to government coffers. No more looting.

 

[deleted480308]

Taxing and spending is far more efficient and meaningful than handing over all the power to private entities and become impotent. Private companies are not giving anything free. We are paying ten times and twenty times for private services compared to what we would pay as tax. You can look around Canada and European countries for proof. No one is canvassing against capitalism but the 100% Control of private entities. We need capitalism with strict regulations and essential social programs, the right mix. But all the natural resources should be harvested by the government and proceeds should go to government coffers. No more looting.

So now you want gov to control healthcare and welfare and seize all natural resources? That’s a bad proposition

 

[Cornfed101]

So now you want gov to control healthcare and welfare and seize all natural resources? That’s a bad proposition

@LoveAll has probably never been to the DMV

 

[Nephro critical care]

I work at a hospital whose ED is staffed by TeamHealth. I recently got a needlestick injury while placing a central line in the night. I was advised by the employee health nurse to go to the ED for hepatitis / HIV titres. I went to the ED and was seen by the physician for 30 seconds who ordered the titres and discharged me.
One month later after I got a bill from TeamHealth for $673 as my copay for the ED visit. $673 for a needle stick injury 30 second visit ! And that was only the physician charge not the facility/lab fees. I called TeamHealth and they said they would will my hospital's workman's comp. Guess what 1 month later I got a call from a collecting agency saying my bill had been sent to collections. I went to my CEO and complained and the hospital paid off TeamHealth.
TeamHealth and other staffing companies are nothing but an organised legitimized mafia. I wonder how many patients come to my ED and get these out of network charges.
I was looking up TeamHealth and it is owned by the Blackstone group which is the large investment firms in the world. Why are they into healthcare ? Just to loot the lower and middle class consumer. I would think that it would very unethical to be an employee of TeamHealth.
What I hope with Bernie and M4A coming is TeamHealth type companies to be taken down ; no matter if we doctors have to take a slight paycut for this to happen.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I work at a hospital whose ED is staffed by TeamHealth. I recently got a needlestick injury while placing a central line in the night. I was advised by the employee health nurse to go to the ED for hepatitis / HIV titres. I went to the ED and was seen by the physician for 30 seconds who ordered the titres and discharged me.
One month later after I got a bill from TeamHealth for $673 as my copay for the ED visit. $673 for a needle stick injury 30 second visit ! And that was only the physician charge not the facility/lab fees. I called TeamHealth and they said they would will my hospital's workman's comp. Guess what 1 month later I got a call from a collecting agency saying my bill had been sent to collections. I went to my CEO and complained and the hospital paid off TeamHealth.
TeamHealth and other staffing companies are nothing but an organised legitimized mafia. I wonder how many patients come to my ED and get these out of network charges.
I was looking up TeamHealth and it is owned by the Blackstone group which is the large investment firms in the world. Why are they into healthcare ? Just to loot the lower and middle class consumer. I would think that it would very unethical to be an employee of TeamHealth.
What I hope with Bernie and M4A coming is TeamHealth type companies to be taken down ; no matter if we doctors have to take a slight paycut for this to happen.

So because one company screwed you over you want to completely redesign our healthcare system

Makes sense.

 

[Nephro critical care]

Some parts of healthcare are essential services just like law enforcement and the fire department. If someone comes to rob you house and you call 911 and the police responds they wont send you a $5000 bill a month later because they were out of network.
Not all healthcare should be essential services like 4th line chemo for pancreatic CA or hemodialysis in a demented 90 year old is not an essential service it should be a luxury. But ED care and pregnancy / childbirth care should be free as a right for all Americans and TeamHealth should not be allowed to profit from it.

 

[deleted480308]

Some parts of healthcare are essential services just like law enforcement and the fire department. If someone comes to rob you house and you call 911 and the police responds they wont send you a $5000 bill a month later because they were out of network.
Not all healthcare should be essential services like 4th line chemo for pancreatic CA or hemodialysis in a demented 90 year old is not an essential service it should be a luxury. But ED care and pregnancy / childbirth care should be free as a right for all Americans and TeamHealth should not be allowed to profit from it.

But if you try to not pay property taxes on that house(which is how those cops are paid) they will absolutely send the cops to physically throw you out of the house and sell it at auction to pay the taxes. The govt will get their money if they think you owe them

 

[deleted480308]

Some parts of healthcare are essential services just like law enforcement and the fire department. If someone comes to rob you house and you call 911 and the police responds they wont send you a $5000 bill a month later because they were out of network.
Not all healthcare should be essential services like 4th line chemo for pancreatic CA or hemodialysis in a demented 90 year old is not an essential service it should be a luxury. But ED care and pregnancy / childbirth care should be free as a right for all Americans and TeamHealth should not be allowed to profit from it.

So, like a death panel?

 

[Nephro critical care]

So, like a death panel?

Its not a death panel. Its the government deciding where its tax dollars are best utilized. 4th line chemotherapy is not a essential service ; by all means patients can have it but the patient / family pays the cost. Maternal / delivery / emergency care services / PCP care on the other hand are guaranteed free.