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Thoughts on away rotations at top IM programs: UCSF, BWH, MGH, Hopkins
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Can't speak for Hopkins, but I know neither UCSF nor MGH gives out automatic interviews to visiting students (UCSF's policy is well known, and one of my classmates did not get an MGH invite after doing a cardiology month there). I'm not sure it matters much anyhow; even if you get a courtesy interview when you otherwise failed to impress on your rotation, it's unlikely that you'll be ranked to match. You seem like a solid applicant on paper; I would veer toward the conservative side with the away rotations.
Also, as great as the programs you've listed are, there are other places that will train you well and offer you excellent fellowship options. Programs like Penn, Duke, UW, Columbia, and Stanford fall in this "tier 1a" category, and who knows, they may in fact fit you better than MGH et al. Definitely take a serious look at them. My impression is that they are somewhat tougher to match at than the top midwest programs, but others here may be able to help you better there.
Also, as great as the programs you've listed are, there are other places that will train you well and offer you excellent fellowship options. Programs like Penn, Duke, UW, Columbia, and Stanford fall in this "tier 1a" category, and who knows, they may in fact fit you better than MGH et al. Definitely take a serious look at them. My impression is that they are somewhat tougher to match at than the top midwest programs, but others here may be able to help you better there.
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agree. my friend who did away at ucsf did not get interview. i would say don't waste the money nor the time for it.
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I'm not a big fan of away rotations. I was going to do an away rotation at a top tier school I thought I wanted to go to. I'm glad I didn't b/c I ended up not even ranking the program.
I've heard the story over and over again about the 4th year that does an away rotation somewhere and doesn't match there. I get the sense that it really is not going to bump you up into a different category as an applicant.
HOWEVER, if you are VERY personable and savy and people generally like you immediately before getting to know you, you may benefit. If you are insecure about where you stand and desparate to match at a big name program, then you may come off that way which may make for an uncomfortable month (during which you are going to be working your ass off).
Another though in this stream of consciousness reply is that you can arrange to work with a physician who is famous in his/her field and the very least get a letter out of the rotation.
The real bottom line is that this is truly a "match" process. You will see that you belong to a certain program. They will recognize it and so will you. This can usually be deduced from an interview rather than a month long excursion.
Good luck!
I've heard the story over and over again about the 4th year that does an away rotation somewhere and doesn't match there. I get the sense that it really is not going to bump you up into a different category as an applicant.
HOWEVER, if you are VERY personable and savy and people generally like you immediately before getting to know you, you may benefit. If you are insecure about where you stand and desparate to match at a big name program, then you may come off that way which may make for an uncomfortable month (during which you are going to be working your ass off).
Another though in this stream of consciousness reply is that you can arrange to work with a physician who is famous in his/her field and the very least get a letter out of the rotation.
The real bottom line is that this is truly a "match" process. You will see that you belong to a certain program. They will recognize it and so will you. This can usually be deduced from an interview rather than a month long excursion.
Good luck!
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Something to think about re: away rotations and invitations to interview. Depending on how together a place is, you may go to Hot **** State for an away ID (or whatever) rotation and never have any contact w/ anyone who has any impact on whether/if you'll get an interview. You'll have to be proactive and go find the PD and talk to them directly. You may luck out (or be able to plan appropriately if you have the right connections) and be on the service when the chair/chief/PD is on service but this is rather unlikely. Other places will hook you up semi-automatically w/ the PD while you are there.
One final thing to consider is that there is an important difference between the "best program possible" and the "best program possible for you." Sure, UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Mayo, etc are great programs but they may be horrible for you. The best teaching in the world is useless if you would rather put your head in the oven than show up for work every day. Not to say that any particular program mentioned (or not mentioned) in this thread would make you want to put your head in the oven but it's an important consideration.
Just something else to think about in case you're not neurotic enough at this point.
One final thing to consider is that there is an important difference between the "best program possible" and the "best program possible for you." Sure, UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Mayo, etc are great programs but they may be horrible for you. The best teaching in the world is useless if you would rather put your head in the oven than show up for work every day. Not to say that any particular program mentioned (or not mentioned) in this thread would make you want to put your head in the oven but it's an important consideration.
Just something else to think about in case you're not neurotic enough at this point.
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A few more semi-random thoughts . . .
You mentioned Boston programs. Don't forget about BID. I've posted a lot about BID and think it's an amazing program that's generally underrated and therefore may may not be ultra-competitive.
I believe BWH is another program that doesn't automatically interview those who do away rotations there. I ran into somebody on the interview trail who started a rotation there shortly after being rejected for an interview. Maybe she just rotated too late. But don't think that an away will automatically get you an interview. Regardless, if they interview you just as a courtesy, your application will likely get a good look but if you weren't competitive to begin with it probably won't help you much. Maybe the practice is good, though.
I thought my away at Mayo helped. Maybe I could have gotten in anyway, but who knows. Talking with the interns and residents on my team, many of them did aways there.
A huge benefit of the away rotation is the ability to really see a program. I interviewed at some programs and left thinking that I really didn't know the program well. One program in particular really let me down on interview day and I suspect that they're actually a very good program, but I only had that one day to see the place. Meanwhile, I absolutely fell in love with the place I did an away at, and I'm not sure I would have felt as strongly had I not spent a month there. I would recommend rotating at a program that is as different from your home program as possible to see what you think of the different system.
I'm not convinced LORs from a big name place are automatically that great - I think it depends on the person, and therefore you could land a great letter from a well-known person from a lesser-known program. Try to get LORs from your aways just like you would from your home rotations.
4 away rotations sounds like a lot. However, if your home program essentially covers a single hospital it might be worth while to try to see some other places to get some variety. I've rotated at 8 hospitals (VA, University, true county, county-HMO, well-off private inner city, not so well-off private inner city, private semi-rural community hospital, private semi-rural referral hospital, plus my away) which helped me chose a residency slightly but beyond that I thought it was just plain a good experience.
B.Eric's a smart guy - best program for you is NOT synonymous with best program possible/best reputation. Do you really believe MGH/BWH/UCSF/Hopkins/etc is the best possible fit for everyone who ranks them #1? Or do you think some people get hung up on reputation?
And finally - housing, transportation, and food can be expensive. Make sure to save some money for applications. Those plane tickets and hotels add up fast!
You mentioned Boston programs. Don't forget about BID. I've posted a lot about BID and think it's an amazing program that's generally underrated and therefore may may not be ultra-competitive.
I believe BWH is another program that doesn't automatically interview those who do away rotations there. I ran into somebody on the interview trail who started a rotation there shortly after being rejected for an interview. Maybe she just rotated too late. But don't think that an away will automatically get you an interview. Regardless, if they interview you just as a courtesy, your application will likely get a good look but if you weren't competitive to begin with it probably won't help you much. Maybe the practice is good, though.
I thought my away at Mayo helped. Maybe I could have gotten in anyway, but who knows. Talking with the interns and residents on my team, many of them did aways there.
A huge benefit of the away rotation is the ability to really see a program. I interviewed at some programs and left thinking that I really didn't know the program well. One program in particular really let me down on interview day and I suspect that they're actually a very good program, but I only had that one day to see the place. Meanwhile, I absolutely fell in love with the place I did an away at, and I'm not sure I would have felt as strongly had I not spent a month there. I would recommend rotating at a program that is as different from your home program as possible to see what you think of the different system.
I'm not convinced LORs from a big name place are automatically that great - I think it depends on the person, and therefore you could land a great letter from a well-known person from a lesser-known program. Try to get LORs from your aways just like you would from your home rotations.
4 away rotations sounds like a lot. However, if your home program essentially covers a single hospital it might be worth while to try to see some other places to get some variety. I've rotated at 8 hospitals (VA, University, true county, county-HMO, well-off private inner city, not so well-off private inner city, private semi-rural community hospital, private semi-rural referral hospital, plus my away) which helped me chose a residency slightly but beyond that I thought it was just plain a good experience.
B.Eric's a smart guy - best program for you is NOT synonymous with best program possible/best reputation. Do you really believe MGH/BWH/UCSF/Hopkins/etc is the best possible fit for everyone who ranks them #1? Or do you think some people get hung up on reputation?
And finally - housing, transportation, and food can be expensive. Make sure to save some money for applications. Those plane tickets and hotels add up fast!
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I think if you're coming from a lesser-known school it would probably help your chances of matching at a more competitive program if you did an away rotation there. Just go there and bust your ass...it will be a good advertisement for yourself. You may want to consider checking out the "not as 'elite', but still 'elite' places" like BID, Yale, Stanford. I'm in no way implying that these are bad programs at all...I just think MGH, BWH, UCSF, may be a bit more competitive to get into than these other places.
Unfortunately, I think it's a little bit of a disadvantage coming from a lesser-tier school, because I think sometimes the name of the school can get you in the door for an interview. On the other hand, there are smart hardworking people everywhere...and if you're smart and hardworking then you deserve to go to a great program no matter where you went to med school. Also - don't let the "name" of the place intimidate you - we all read the same books and take the same tests - so you know just as much as anyone else. Just bust your butt and you'll do great. In the end though, no matter where you go, if you work hard, then you'll do well and be a great doc.
Well that was long-winded. Bottom line - names don't matter as much as brains - but sometimes you have to play the game to get your foot in the door.😎
Unfortunately, I think it's a little bit of a disadvantage coming from a lesser-tier school, because I think sometimes the name of the school can get you in the door for an interview. On the other hand, there are smart hardworking people everywhere...and if you're smart and hardworking then you deserve to go to a great program no matter where you went to med school. Also - don't let the "name" of the place intimidate you - we all read the same books and take the same tests - so you know just as much as anyone else. Just bust your butt and you'll do great. In the end though, no matter where you go, if you work hard, then you'll do well and be a great doc.
Well that was long-winded. Bottom line - names don't matter as much as brains - but sometimes you have to play the game to get your foot in the door.😎
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I have to echo Nexus 5's recommendation to consider other top programs that you didn't mention, especially Duke.
Admittedly I'm a bit biased since I love the Duke program, but many students have done away rotations here and then ended up loving the program and ultimately matching here. Away rotations are a GREAT way to get a feel for what a program is really like, apart from the show that's put on at any interview day. I'd argue that they're much more important for this reason, aside from the bonus of getting exposure at a great place and perhaps even a letter. You'll be able to meet students and residents who've been through it already, and can give you much more perspective on the program than a website, lecture, or handout ever could. This is not to say that you have any better of a chance at matching at a top program if you do an away rotation there. But, if you make a great impression then you probably DO have a better chance at many places, althoug I imagine this is not universally true, as top programs have many more fantastic applicants than they need to fill their spots.
While I agree with others that it's imporant to find the best program "for you," not just "the best program" by reputation, it's important to consider that it's much easier to match into tough subspecialties like cardiology if you're coming from a Hopkins/UCSF/MGH/Duke/U Mich type of place. If you think you're headed towards cards as you mentioned, don't overlook this important consideration. Don't forget about UT Southwestern either though. They get outstanding cardiology exposure, and the IM program is very highly respected. They always match people into cards at Duke and other tippity top cardiology programs, and for a good reason...they train their residents superbly well!
I have just one last comment. Matching in IM is not nearly as competitive as many of us think. With your step 2 score, AOA status, and other achievements, I think you'll get a number of great interviews at places like Michigan, Wash U, Penn, Duke, etc., so I wouldn't worry too much. MGH and Hopkins are always tough, no matter who you are and where you're from, but I'm sure you'll do well either way.
Admittedly I'm a bit biased since I love the Duke program, but many students have done away rotations here and then ended up loving the program and ultimately matching here. Away rotations are a GREAT way to get a feel for what a program is really like, apart from the show that's put on at any interview day. I'd argue that they're much more important for this reason, aside from the bonus of getting exposure at a great place and perhaps even a letter. You'll be able to meet students and residents who've been through it already, and can give you much more perspective on the program than a website, lecture, or handout ever could. This is not to say that you have any better of a chance at matching at a top program if you do an away rotation there. But, if you make a great impression then you probably DO have a better chance at many places, althoug I imagine this is not universally true, as top programs have many more fantastic applicants than they need to fill their spots.
While I agree with others that it's imporant to find the best program "for you," not just "the best program" by reputation, it's important to consider that it's much easier to match into tough subspecialties like cardiology if you're coming from a Hopkins/UCSF/MGH/Duke/U Mich type of place. If you think you're headed towards cards as you mentioned, don't overlook this important consideration. Don't forget about UT Southwestern either though. They get outstanding cardiology exposure, and the IM program is very highly respected. They always match people into cards at Duke and other tippity top cardiology programs, and for a good reason...they train their residents superbly well!
I have just one last comment. Matching in IM is not nearly as competitive as many of us think. With your step 2 score, AOA status, and other achievements, I think you'll get a number of great interviews at places like Michigan, Wash U, Penn, Duke, etc., so I wouldn't worry too much. MGH and Hopkins are always tough, no matter who you are and where you're from, but I'm sure you'll do well either way.
