Thoughts on hours cap by ACGME?

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Bancrofti

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The cap itself is old, but the question is meant to preface the article below released last week. You may want to answer before or after reading, but what do you guys think currently? I thought students would be lucking out in that when that point in time comes we don't have to worry about working an exorbitant amount of hours, so much so that it might be physically unhealthy (or more important - detrimental to future patients). However, after reading the article it seems like there hasn't been a radical shift in lifestyle change for many residents despite the mandate. While this may be due to the fact that it isn't actually being enforced (how is this even possible by the way?) I never realized so many people saw the extra time of being so much value towards becoming prepared. I know when the issue was first raised, some people against it were saying it wouldn't allow new residents to have ample time to have adequate exposure and preparation. I didn't really see how this could be true, because though 10 hours is a lot, how much more could be squeezed in through an additional 10 hours per week? Now that I see that resident's also say that when the hour per week limit is enforced they see it as taking away from preparation, I guess my stance has changed. Maybe we'd be better off with > 80 hour weeks? As mentioned in the article though, obviously not all residencies need the same amount of time...

The role of the resident physician has evolved substantially over the past century. William Stewart Halsted, who is credited with developing the early system of graduate medical education in the United States, required 362 days per year of service from his residents. However, unlike Halsted's trainees, who lived in the hospitals in which they worked, today's first-year residents (interns) must adhere to various work restrictions, including spending no longer than 16 consecutive hours in the hospital.

National regulation of resident duty hours has occurred in response to the recognition that fatigue from extended work hours may result in errors and compromise patient care1 and may also lead to diminishing educational returns. Ultimately, the sensitive balance between patient care and education — given that residents are trainees — remains at the forefront of this discussion.

In 2003, the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) implemented the first national regulation of work hours, establishing the 80-hour workweek. In 2008, the Institute of Medicine recommended additional limitations on work hours and an increase in direct supervision of residents to improve patient safety. It also suggested that if the ACGME and sponsoring institutions did not make changes, the Joint Commission or the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) should perhaps step in to regulate residents' hours. U.S. public opinion supported further regulation as well.2

In response to these pressures, the ACGME Duty Hours Task Force implemented the latest Common Program Requirements for Resident Duty Hours and Supervision in July 2011. Before the implementation of these requirements, two large national studies had shown that program directors and residents had mixed feelings about the potential impact of the proposed changes — fearing specifically that increased frequency of handoffs and loss of continuity might have a negative effect on patient care. Furthermore, there was concern that shortened duty hours, particularly for interns, would impair education and leave trainees less prepared for more senior, supervisory roles.3,4 To understand whether these concerns have become a reality during the year after the changes were adopted, we conducted a follow-up national survey of residents.
All 682 sponsoring institutions of ACGME-accredited residency programs in the United States were invited to participate in the survey, which had been approved by the institutional review board at Rhode Island Hospital. For each site, the designated institutional official (DIO) who is responsible for overseeing all ACGME programs at the institution was contacted by e-mail to invite trainees to participate in the survey. A complete list of e-mail addresses for all DIOs was collected from the publicly available ACGME database. We requested responses for agreement or refusal of institutional participation and e-mailed requests three times to encourage maximal participation. Once an institution had agreed, we e-mailed the survey hyperlink to the DIOs, along with an explanation of the survey, for distribution to all their residents between December 2011 and February 2012. Residents were not compelled to participate, and no incentives were offered for participation.
By February 2012, a total of 123 institutions in 41 states had agreed to participate; 33 DIOs had refused, citing survey fatigue as the primary reason. Data were collected over a period of 12 weeks to allow for study approval at each site and to maximize survey return. The resident populations at the participating institutions included 26,581 residents across a broad distribution of specialties. We received 6202 individual responses (23.3% response rate).

The questionnaire focused on the perceived effects of the 2011 regulations on the care of patients and residents' education, quality of life, and supervision. In addition, we collected demographic data on sex, postgraduate year, program size, and specialty (see Table 1TABLE 1
Demographic Characteristics of Survey Respondents and Comparative ACGME Data for Resident Physicians in the United States.
). A majority of respondents (77.6%) were in their first 3 postgraduate years and in training programs in internal medicine (21.8%), family medicine (14.9%), or pediatrics (10.8%). Surgical fields (including obstetrics) were well represented, with 1316 respondents (21.2%). Overall, the demographic and specialty distribution of the sample paralleled national numbers published by the ACGME.5
To evaluate residents' perspectives, we asked 12 questions requiring positive, neutral, or negative responses. We used the standard error of proportions to calculate two-sided confidence intervals with an alpha level of 0.001. Statistical significance was established for results with no overlap of the 99.9% confidence intervals (see Table 2TABLE 2 Perceived Effects of New ACGME Regulations.).

For many questions, residents reported no changes after the implementation of the new ACGME regulations. Although twice as many residents reported receiving better supervision as reported receiving worse supervision (17.9% vs. 8.3%), the availability of supervision was overwhelmingly thought to be unchanged (73.8%). This finding is interesting, given that interns are now required to have “immediately available” supervision, an important policy change necessitating the presence of a senior resident or attending physician within the hospital at all times.
Although 42.8% of residents reported no change in the quality of education, a nearly equal proportion (40.9%) reported worsened education — a far greater number than those who saw improvement (16.3%). Similarly, a majority (51.5%) of residents believed that preparation for more senior roles was worse. These perceptions may reflect the effects of the 16-hour-per-day limitation for first-year trainees and the sense that junior-level responsibilities have been shifted to senior residents (65.5%). Scheduling changes with increased “night float” duties may be reducing residents' exposure to patients, availability for educational conferences, and continuity of care — an effect that is also reflected in a marked increase in transitions of care (72.0%).

Our study of residents last year also showed that half of residents (50.9%) anticipated positive changes in quality of life with the new regulations.3 However, a positive change seems to have been borne out only for interns (61.8%), whereas senior residents' quality of life has suffered (49.7%) and, overall, residents claimed that their work schedules were worse (43.0%). Similarly, 50.1% of residents said that the amount of rest they obtained was unchanged, and 58.9% said the total number hours they worked was unchanged, despite the substantial limitation on interns.

The new ACGME regulations were proposed to improve three areas — patient care, resident education, and resident quality of life — by changing the quality and quantity of hours worked, as well as by increasing supervision at teaching hospitals. Yet our data show that many residents believe that these benefits have not been borne out in practice. Almost half of residents (48.4%) disapprove of the regulations — twice as many as those who approve of them (22.9%).

The survey results suggest several possible explanations for this dissatisfaction. First, residents are working the same number of hours with no change in the amount of rest they receive and with worse schedules than last year, which diminishes their overall quality of life. Second, residents believe that a chief goal of training — preparedness for transitioning from intern to senior resident, then ultimately to attending physician — is being delayed. Third, there has been no ostensible increase in available supervision or in the benefits for safety and education that would accompany this increased attendance. Finally, the frequency of handoffs has increased, reducing continuity of care and thereby negatively affecting the educational and emotional experience associated with a strong doctor–patient relationship.
We firmly believe that most residents support some form of duty-hour regulation and would not choose to revert to the Halstedian model. However, a one-size-fits-all approach may not be adequate or appropriate for all trainees and training programs. Ultimately, the intended and actual effects of the 2011 ACGME duty-hours requirements may not be aligned. Nevertheless, more study will be needed to quantify how safety and quality of care, as well as resident education, are being affected.

The link is: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202848
Didn't see this posted on here so I figured I'd bring it up.

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Halsted was a cocaine addict, I really wish people would stop talking about the hazing he started for medical trainees as if it deserves admiration. 80 hours a week was a step in the right direction, but it's still ridiculous (when you're not coked up anyway).

Learning is a balance for me. Free time to read helps. I have, without exception, learned more during rotations where I work 50-60h per week than I have busting ass 80-100h per week. It may be different for surgical specialties where it's kind of hard to learn your job without actually being in the OR.

As long as there is public service loan forgiveness to help with the loan situation, I'd be happy to do an extra year or two of residency in exchange for 60h weeks. I know lots of people feel differently, including those who cheerfully employ us for close to minimum wage. Why would they want to to pay us for longer? Or hire more of us to work those extra hours? For better or for worse, nothing is going to change fast, so enjoy the ride :)
 
The cap itself is old, but the question is meant to preface the article below released last week. You may want to answer before or after reading, but what do you guys think currently? I thought students would be lucking out in that when that point in time comes we don't have to worry about working an exorbitant amount of hours, so much so that it might be physically unhealthy (or more important - detrimental to future patients). However, after reading the article it seems like there hasn't been a radical shift in lifestyle change for many residents despite the mandate. While this may be due to the fact that it isn't actually being enforced (how is this even possible by the way?) I never realized so many people saw the extra time of being so much value towards becoming prepared. I know when the issue was first raised, some people against it were saying it wouldn't allow new residents to have ample time to have adequate exposure and preparation. I didn't really see how this could be true, because though 10 hours is a lot, how much more could be squeezed in through an additional 10 hours per week? Now that I see that resident's also say that when the hour per week limit is enforced they see it as taking away from preparation, I guess my stance has changed. Maybe we'd be better off with > 80 hour weeks? As mentioned in the article though, obviously not all residencies need the same amount of time...



The link is: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202848
Didn't see this posted on here so I figured I'd bring it up.

If you're at a smaller program, it may not be difficult for attendings to find-out who filed a complaint with ACGME
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I think it's good to have an 80 hr restriction. The alternative would be having things like surgical training last 120 hrs a week. It's not good for human beings to live without relationships, exercise, and some recreation o family time.

People working over 100 hrs usually neglect their health, family, friends or even themselves (hobbies).

That makes for a depressing undatisfied life.
 
Halsted was a cocaine addict, I really wish people would stop talking about the hazing he started for medical trainees as if it deserves admiration. 80 hours a week was a step in the right direction, but it's still ridiculous (when you're not coked up anyway).

Learning is a balance for me. Free time to read helps. I have, without exception, learned more during rotations where I work 50-60h per week than I have busting ass 80-100h per week. It may be different for surgical specialties where it's kind of hard to learn your job without actually being in the OR.

As long as there is public service loan forgiveness to help with the loan situation, I'd be happy to do an extra year or two of residency in exchange for 60h weeks. I know lots of people feel differently, including those who cheerfully employ us for close to minimum wage. Why would they want to to pay us for longer? Or hire more of us to work those extra hours? For better or for worse, nothing is going to change fast, so enjoy the ride :)

I agree, even though my opinion is shortsighted. It's good to see someone currently going through residency who agrees with the cap.

If you're at a smaller program, it may not be difficult for attendings to find-out who filed a complaint with ACGME

What could happen if the attending finds out? I know it obviously looks bad on the attending since he or she wouldn't be too happy with someone critiquing how things are run, but surely there is something in place so that there can't be backlash against residents who speak up against others who aren't following standards?
 
Don't mind spending 100+ hrs in the hospital, just as long as most of the "overtime" it is spent in the OR
 
The cap itself is old, but the question is meant to preface the article below released last week. You may want to answer before or after reading, but what do you guys think currently? I thought students would be lucking out in that when that point in time comes we don't have to worry about working an exorbitant amount of hours, so much so that it might be physically unhealthy (or more important - detrimental to future patients). However, after reading the article it seems like there hasn't been a radical shift in lifestyle change for many residents despite the mandate. While this may be due to the fact that it isn't actually being enforced (how is this even possible by the way?) I never realized so many people saw the extra time of being so much value towards becoming prepared. I know when the issue was first raised, some people against it were saying it wouldn't allow new residents to have ample time to have adequate exposure and preparation. I didn't really see how this could be true, because though 10 hours is a lot, how much more could be squeezed in through an additional 10 hours per week? Now that I see that resident's also say that when the hour per week limit is enforced they see it as taking away from preparation, I guess my stance has changed. Maybe we'd be better off with > 80 hour weeks? As mentioned in the article though, obviously not all residencies need the same amount of time...



The link is: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202848
Didn't see this posted on here so I figured I'd bring it up.

I'm not sure why the need to bring up Halsted -- those times have come and gone and we have had several duty hour changes since then. The proper benchmark should be against the prior ACGME rules. I think the second to last paragraph sums things up pretty well -- folks are working the same hours as before the latest set of rules, but now with long strings of night float, fewer days off, less teaching, fewer electives, and a lot of grunt work has moved from interns to second years. I can certainly see how this is simply window dressing and not really an improvement. It certainly isn't from my personal perspective.
 
I think it's good to have an 80 hr restriction. The alternative would be having things like surgical training last 120 hrs a week. It's not good for human beings to live without relationships, exercise, and some recreation o family time.

People working over 100 hrs usually neglect their health, family, friends or even themselves (hobbies).

That makes for a depressing undatisfied life.

many surgical programs still routinely go over 100 hours
 
Disclaimer: I'm an M0 and I read this article a week ago.

This article is not about Halsted. No need to bash him. He still pwns you.

I think the most significant information is that more residents feel that teaching has not improved or worsened and that there lives have not improved by the 80hr cap. Moreover, I believe an earlier NEJM perspective article indicated that patient safety - the dominant driving force behind the cap - has not improved as a result of the change. One of the reasons being the increased frequency of hand-offs. I think an important recommendation the article makes is not to have a one size fits all hour cap. If surgical residents benefit from 120-hr weeks, let them cut. If dermatology residents are exhausted after 35, let them get their beauty rest.

It will also be interesting to see how the shortened (~1.5 yrs) basic science curriculums - another response to the 80-hour cap - in some med schools have affected GME.
 
One question I've always had would be if hospitals had to start paying the interns/residents/fellows hourly if we might all of a sudden see better hours...
 
many surgical programs still routinely go over 100 hours

I've heard. I think it's unfortunate that they completely ignore the rules. It speaks to a programs integrity when they falsify documents to get better results. It's not the first time in human history such things have been done.

Unfortunately, there is no oversight, accountability, or significant consequences.
 
I've heard. I think it's unfortunate that they completely ignore the rules. It speaks to a programs integrity when they falsify documents to get better results. It's not the first time in human history such things have been done.

Unfortunately, there is no oversight, accountability, or significant consequences.

It was a completely unrealistic rule to make. You can handoff a medicine patient waiting on a CT scan to another team; you can't handoff a whipple procedure to another team. Surgery residencies are smaller than medicine residencies, patients are sicker, and they operate in addition to managing them medically. The 80 hour rules simply don't work without massively increasing the size of surgical residencies throughout the country.

Since the ACGME did not do that, the rules are broken so that patients don't die.
 
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One question I've always had would be if hospitals had to start paying the interns/residents/fellows hourly if we might all of a sudden see better hours...

The problem with this is residents become much more efficient and valuable the further along in their training they go, so you would see senior residents get exploited big-time, as they are the best return on investment.

in a "learn by doing" field, for training purposes it's really the interns you want to keep in the salt mines as much as possible. Right now ACGME has it backwards -- interns can't stay enough hours in a row, but second years get clobbered. The other way round would get folks up to speed faster.
 
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I've heard. I think it's unfortunate that they completely ignore the rules. It speaks to a programs integrity when they falsify documents to get better results. It's not the first time in human history such things have been done.

Unfortunately, there is no oversight, accountability, or significant consequences.

On paper no residents go over 80 hours a week averaged. There are mechanisms for whistle blowing at every program, and you fill out ACGME surveys on hours annually. Unless the ACGME hears otherwise, they Have to assume the reports they receive from programs and responses to surveys are accurate. And programs don't falsify data so much as ask residents if they went over 80 hours. The residents say, "it's all good" and the programs don't pry further.

In real life programs do endeavor to get you out on time. They try to follow the rules, given their staffing limitations. On paper they give you a schedule that theoretically could allow you to stay within duty hours if everything goes to plan. However If your 80th hour of the fourth 80 hour week in a row comes and goes, and you are mid chest compression on a Coding patient and haven't even started to give sign out, I'm not sure what the ACGME expects you to do.
 
On paper no residents go over 80 hours a week averaged. There are mechanisms for whistle blowing at every program, and you fill out ACGME surveys on hours annually. Unless the ACGME hears otherwise, they Have to assume the reports they receive from programs and responses to surveys are accurate. And programs don't falsify data so much as ask residents if they went over 80 hours. The residents say, "it's all good" and the programs don't pry further.

The procedure for this is "anonymous" surveys that ask if you violated work hours. How do you think that will work when you are in a 2 person urology class? It will be pretty easy to tell who taddled, and you can kiss any positive treatment you had goodbye for the rest of your residency.
 
The problem with this is residents become much more efficient and valuable the further along in their training they go, so you would see senior residents get exploited big-time, as they are the best return on investment.

in a "learn by doing" field, for training purposes it's really the interns you want to keep in the salt mines as much as possible. Right now ACGME has it backwards -- interns can't stay enough hours in a row, but second years get clobbered. The other way round would get folks up to speed faster.

Agree completly, and always appreciate your insight. However, in your experience, is all the time residents spend at work useful?

Before I went to medical school, I worked as a management consultant. It always seemed that hospitals were substantially much less efficient with labor productivity (compared to other industries). Hence, the workday becomes a lot longer than it should be, time for training decreases, pateints get less attentive care, et cetera.

I guess since resident labor is "cheap" (and reimbursed), hospitals had little incentive to increase productivity through more efficient management and resource allocation. If residents started to cost a bunch more, their time might be used more wisely.

I wonder if it would be possible to reduce the hours through better management (better IT, better systems, better allocation of labor, and so on).

Any thoughts/experiences?
 
It was a completely unrealistic rule to make. You can handoff a medicine patient waiting on a CT scan to another team; you can't handoff a whipple procedure to another team. Surgery residencies are smaller than medicine residencies, patients are sicker, and they operate in addition to managing them medically. The 80 hour rules simply don't work without massively increasing the size of surgical residencies throughout the country.

Since the ACGME did not do that, the rules are broken so that patients don't die.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the rule doesn't work then adjust it, don't falsify documents. I'd rather fight for the truth and be held accountable for breaking the rules than lying.

On paper no residents go over 80 hours a week averaged. There are mechanisms for whistle blowing at every program, and you fill out ACGME surveys on hours annually. Unless the ACGME hears otherwise, they Have to assume the reports they receive from programs and responses to surveys are accurate. And programs don't falsify data so much as ask residents if they went over 80 hours. The residents say, "it's all good" and the programs don't pry further.

In real life programs do endeavor to get you out on time. They try to follow the rules, given their staffing limitations. On paper they give you a schedule that theoretically could allow you to stay within duty hours if everything goes to plan. However If your 80th hour of the fourth 80 hour week in a row comes and goes, and you are mid chest compression on a Coding patient and haven't even started to give sign out, I'm not sure what the ACGME expects you to do.

That's not what I'm getting at, nor the ACGME. If a person is in dire need of help and it requires 10 extra hours one week, that's fine. If there is a huge outbreak and you have to work 100 hours a week for a month or two, that's fine.

What I'm talking about is consistently having individuals work 100 hr weeks, year after year, while completely disregarding the rules and then submitting all the right paperwork at the end of the day. That's not the right thing to do. Change the rules if they're broken.


The procedure for this is "anonymous" surveys that ask if you violated work hours. How do you think that will work when you are in a 2 person urology class? It will be pretty easy to tell who taddled, and you can kiss any positive treatment you had goodbye for the rest of your residency.

The dilemma is the result of poor leadership.
 
I've heard. I think it's unfortunate that they completely ignore the rules. It speaks to a programs integrity when they falsify documents to get better results. It's not the first time in human history such things have been done.

Unfortunately, there is no oversight, accountability, or significant consequences.

MGH gen surg did get put on probation recently for violating duty hours.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the rule doesn't work then adjust it, don't falsify documents. I'd rather fight for the truth and be held accountable for breaking the rules than lying.



.

The problem is, the residents lie out of fear of retaliation. And for good reason, too. If you think you are going to enact a paradigm shift in the way surgery attendings at academic centers think by reporting breaking duty hours...well good luck to you
 
...

That's not what I'm getting at, nor the ACGME. If a person is in dire need of help and it requires 10 extra hours one week, that's fine. If there is a huge outbreak and you have to work 100 hours a week for a month or two, that's fine.

What I'm talking about is consistently having individuals work 100 hr weeks, year after year, while completely disregarding the rules and then submitting all the right paperwork at the end of the day. That's not the right thing to do. Change the rules if they're broken.
....

the examples you list above are actually not "fine" under the current duty hour rules. There isn't that kind of flexibility, although common sense would dictate that there should be. The Coding patient example i gave is something that actually happens pretty regularly for very small programs which need to maximize resident hours up to the 80 hour limit -- if you are working the entire 80 every week, something is going to happen at least once a month that screws things up and makes you go over hours.

Procedural and surgical fields have been trying to "change the rules" since their inception, but the ACGME is catering to a public notion of a "one size fits all" approach for better rested doctors, regardless of the consequences. Not sure this train can be stopped. Saying "change the rules" is well and nice but when fields like neurosurgery lobby hard that the rules don't work for their field, give concrete examples, and are pretty much ignored, not sure what else there is to do.
 
The problem is, the residents lie out of fear of retaliation....

Even in settings where retaliation isn't really feared, most residents are good team players, just looking to keep their heads down and not make waves or get their program in trouble. They fill out the forms saying they worked 80 hours because that's what keeps everyone happy, keeps the coordinators off their backs, etc.
 
Procedural and surgical fields have been trying to "change the rules" since their inception, but the ACGME is catering to a public notion of a "one size fits all" approach for better rested doctors, regardless of the consequences. Not sure this train can be stopped. Saying "change the rules" is well and nice but when fields like neurosurgery lobby hard that the rules don't work for their field, give concrete examples, and are pretty much ignored, not sure what else there is to do.

It seems like the consensus is that you can't apply one rule across all specialties. If proof is provided that for certain areas such as neurosurgery or general surgery need more hours not only for preparation, but for adequate patient care, why is there no change? If it is in the best interest of the physician as well as the patient then it would seem that would be an easy decision to make, but sounds like from what I've read and from what people are saying, this won't budge at all for a long time.
 
It seems like the consensus is that you can't apply one rule across all specialties. If proof is provided that for certain areas such as neurosurgery or general surgery need more hours not only for preparation, but for adequate patient care, why is there no change? If it is in the best interest of the physician as well as the patient then it would seem that would be an easy decision to make, but sounds like from what I've read and from what people are saying, this won't budge at all for a long time.

What is it like in Europe? Mostly the same?

I was looking on the internet and found another forum with these posts concerning orthopedic surgery work hours (http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5494):

Post 2: "in germany its 42 hours / week per contract, but about 54 is average. by far not as many as in the us but we pay a high price. education is worse"


Post 4: "UK: 50 hours but 10+ years to achieve the level of training that you achieve in the US in 5 yrs

France/Belgium: more or less 50 hours, 6 years (2 General surgery!!! + 4 ortho) to finish residency. Surgical education is suboptimal during residency, and in general you should have to kiss the Emperor's (Big Professor's) @ss.. In no way you are independent surgically after the 6 years. Takes years to become surgically competent. Eg. in Belgium, at a big University hospital, at the end of residency, a resident usually has performed "alone" the huge number of 4-5 THR cases!

In the US you work and you learn at the same time, because they want you to learn. In Europe, you work, and, because you work (btw) you learn by chance, not because there is an educational system fit to your needs. That's also why it takes longer (not just because your work hours are less -- they are also of much lower quality).

Bottom line: I'm from Europe, have seen the above systems and I'm glad I'm a resident in the best training system in the world."

Post 5: "We had a guest lecturer from the Netherlands recently who said by contract that his resident were not allowed to work more than 37.5 hours a week. That included clincial responsibilities, lectures, academics, and research time."

Post 6: "Europe regulated by the European Working Time Directive, which limits a working week to 48 hours by law.
The UK trainees are attempting to secure an opt-out clause in the interest of training.
Here in Ireland, EWTD has yet to be introduced but is imminent. Until then, average week ~72 hours for me, but can reach between 110 and 120 hours fairly often depending on your call rota."


I think this is pretty interesting~.

Edit: Since this was a forum, I am not sure if it is true though~!!!
 
It seems like the consensus is that you can't apply one rule across all specialties. If proof is provided that for certain areas such as neurosurgery or general surgery need more hours not only for preparation, but for adequate patient care, why is there no change? If it is in the best interest of the physician as well as the patient then it would seem that would be an easy decision to make, but sounds like from what I've read and from what people are saying, this won't budge at all for a long time.

The people making the changes aren't doing it because it's better for doctors. This is public perception driven, starting from the Zion case. Saying tired doctors are killing their patients makes for great news sound bites, and so the profession is enacting laws to eliminate this perception without really concerning itself with the science or what is "better" for the players in the various specialties. This is a change for window dressing purposes, not because it's results driven.
 
The people making the changes aren't doing it because it's better for doctors. This is public perception driven, starting from the Zion case. Saying tired doctors are killing their patients makes for great news sound bites, and so the profession is enacting laws to eliminate this perception without really concerning itself with the science or what is "better" for the players in the various specialties. This is a change for window dressing purposes, not because it's results driven.

Generally, I'd agree with this. Where is the evidence that tired doctors are the reason why there are so many medical errors? It happens, but I doubt it's this huge epidemic that is the basis for the legislation.

I agree with the above sentiment that you need to work extraordinarily hard in residency to develop competency. I'd say the ideal time in hospital for that would be 60 hours for non-surgical and 80+ (always in OR) for surgical fields.

IMO, beyond 60hrs/wk, people have no time to learn on their own and really can only learn from the patients they manage. It's difficult to strike that right balance. In rads, I think you work like 50-60hrs in residency but are expected to read just as much in your free time at home. Seems ideal.
 
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