Thoughts on Loyola accepting undocumented immigrants?

[Pons Asinorum]

Sir, there is no border patrol, ice agents, or homeland department in Mexico. They won't raid your house and drag you out. Even more, there is no VISA for tourists. They just simply don't care about your status. Everyone is welcomed and accepted.
SOURCES: I lived there, studied there, worked there. Never got deported or sent to a Mexican Border Security detention facility.

I think your sources might not be as accurate as you think...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/07/deportation-mexico-rise_n_2425110.html

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[PreMedRookie]

Yes, all you have to do is check the box, you don't have to prove you are a citizen in any way.

 

[Redpancreas]

If you're mad at Loyola for accepting a legislative ruling, that's idiotic. That's like getting pissed at the first college for accepting and acting on Affirmative Action (I know they're different. It's an analogy.). Loyola is acting on legislation. You're all making yourselves look as foolish as George Wallace standing up against the Little Rock Nine.

If you're mad at the DREAM Act or the requirements for DACA, as it sounds most of you are, then go make pleas to your state senators and representatives. It's in their hands. If you don't like the Act, the only way to stop schools from adopting it is to stop the Act itself.

Careful how you use the word legislation. According to both articles I have read, this has been instituted based on an executive order, not a legislation put forth by the legislative branch.

Also, to everyone arguing about this undocumented issue, I've noticed it's pretty much Asian Indians and Asians on one side and Latinos on the other side. I'll be straight and admit I'm one of the former. I would like to say that many in my community have not been given a green card yet and thus can not apply to medical schools. These same students work hard yet they still can not apply due to their parent's LEGAL immigrant status. This juxtaposed with the idea that now we are allowing the ILLEGAL immigrants (but not legal immigrants) to be allowed in understandably generates anger in some of us. If someone can address this level-headedly we can diffuse this conflict in this thread. Don't criticize or flame. Take my arguments, quote them, tell me why I'm wrong, and give me evidence. That will solve this dispute.

 

[487806]

I know the difference between an immigrant and an undocumented immigrant. But I also know the similarities which outweigh the things that set them apart.

When an american settles in Mexico he is likely to be deported? Sir, there is no border patrol, ice agents, or homeland department in Mexico. They won't raid your house and drag you out. Even more, there is no VISA for tourists. They just simply don't care about your status. Everyone is welcomed and accepted.
SOURCES: I lived there, studied there, worked there. Never got deported or sent to a Mexican Border Security detention facility.

Tell me once again how is it a problem to seek autonomy and pursue happiness.

Pons already disproved your first assertion, so I won't bother. I'll focus on the bolded.

Again, I have no problem with immigrants settling here to seek autonomy and pursue happiness. Why not come here LEGALLY though? Just answer this question rather than assuming I'm xenophobic.

 

[Palam]

I wouldn't be annoyed if I was allowed to move to any of the countries I wanted to legally. Seriously, they will not take you.

 

[487806]

If you're mad at Loyola for accepting a legislative ruling, that's idiotic. That's like getting pissed at the first college for accepting and acting on Affirmative Action (I know they're different. It's an analogy.). Loyola is acting on legislation. You're all making yourselves look as foolish as George Wallace standing up against the Little Rock Nine.

If you're mad at the DREAM Act or the requirements for DACA, as it sounds most of you are, then go make pleas to your state senators and representatives. It's in their hands. If you don't like the Act, the only way to stop schools from adopting it is to stop the Act itself.

Yup exactly. But most premeds here (and college students) ENDORSE this legislation for some unknown reason. Oh well.

 

[Mr Avante]

Pons already disproved your first assertion, so I won't bother. I'll focus on the bolded.

Again, I have no problem with immigrants settling here to seek autonomy and pursue happiness. Why not come here LEGALLY though? Just answer this question rather than assuming I'm xenophobic.

Pons' argument is invalid because Mexico deports those that are involved in drug trafficking activities. According to Mexican Law the government is banned from recurring to deportations based on migratory status. Hence, no migratory system is in place and the deportations related to drugs are carried out by the federal government.

Why not coming here legally?
Well, the legal process is not just filling an application and hoping for the best.
Let me quickly relate the way it is done: (All of this is just for clarification purposes.)

The applicant gathers the necessary documents for initial application. These documents involve bank statements from the moment the account was first created. Original copies from all purchases such as vehicles, houses, apartments, land, etcetera, have to be turned in within the application. Affidavits from family, friends, and close acquaintances have to be turned in also stating relevant information about the applicant, these affidavits may not be less than 10 and/or exceed 20 (Notarized). Original documents from primary, secondary, preparatory, and higher academic institutions have to be turned in followed by a written statement from the administrative official(s) at said institution(s) (Notarized).
A valid passport, which is very hard to get in 3rd world countries, and a letter from the interior department of such country acknowledging the desire of the applicant to leave the country for a relevant period of time. 8 Passport-size pictures of the applicant very well groomed with no piercings, glasses,etc. A letter from the doctor stating your health status and all medical records. The most important part of the application is a check, per person, with the value of $2000 dollars (adult) and $750 for children. If it is a family of 5 individuals the price is reduced to $850 per individual.
After the application is sent, Fedex only, somebody from Washington will receive the package and stack it for revision. After a period of 3 months to 1 year maximum, the application is fully revised and sent to embassy dictating the future of the applicant where I deem your application worthy of revision, once again. If I like the bank statements I let you pass, if I dislike your primary institution I say bye-bye. If I notice your car is just like mine and your apartment is at the beach and I like it, I let you get an interview appointment. It is all matter of luck and contacts.
On the day of the interview you are expected to arrive 2 hours early, mind you the line to access the embassy is 4 blocks long and thus you will have to come by 8 hours before your interview and stand outside.
After you enter you are briefed and checked for weapons, just like the airport. You are told to sit down along with 100 people and wait your turn. The interview might last from 5 minutes to 1 hour, it depends in my mood. If you are wearing a piercing in your eyebrow or have a tatoo on your face I cordially let you know to exit the embassy before starting the interview. If it all goes well, I congratulate you and then invite you to go ahead to the next booth and pay the amazing amount of $1000 per card covering impression services. The Fedex has to be paid by you when it arrives. Meanwhile, you can wait 6 months to receive your legal document. Yay! But wait, there is more! If I know that you lied to me, whether it was your chronic condition or your primary school name, I can terminate your status even before you get the physical document and erase you from future applications for the next 5 years.

Now, as you can see the process is a pain in the **. And no one wants to put up with those kind of things. Well, at least not a person that has the immediate need of finding a job and provide food and support for his family in starvation.

Also, the application process varies in every country and type of visa!
And I forgot the Tax statements. They are very important. If you paid late your taxes that is enough for you to get denied.
Blessings!
-M

 

[487806]

Pons' argument is invalid because Mexico deports those that are involved in drug trafficking activities. According to Mexican Law the government is banned from recurring to deportations based on migratory status. Hence, no migratory system is in place and the deportations related to drugs are carried out by the federal government.

Why not coming here legally?
Well, the legal process is not just filling an application and hoping for the best.
Let me quickly relate the way it is done: (All of this is just for clarification purposes.)

The applicant gathers the necessary documents for initial application. These documents involve bank statements from the moment the account was first created. Original copies from all purchases such as vehicles, houses, apartments, land, etcetera, have to be turned in within the application. Affidavits from family, friends, and close acquaintances have to be turned in also stating relevant information about the applicant, these affidavits may not be less than 10 and/or exceed 20 (Notarized). Original documents from primary, secondary, preparatory, and higher academic institutions have to be turned in followed by a written statement from the administrative official(s) at said institution(s) (Notarized).
A valid passport, which is very hard to get in 3rd world countries, and a letter from the interior department of such country acknowledging the desire of the applicant to leave the country for a relevant period of time. 8 Passport-size pictures of the applicant very well groomed with no piercings, glasses,etc. A letter from the doctor stating your health status and all medical records. The most important part of the application is a check, per person, with the value of $2000 dollars (adult) and $750 for children. If it is a family of 5 individuals the price is reduced to $850 per individual.
After the application is sent, Fedex only, somebody from Washington will receive the package and stack it for revision. After a period of 3 months to 1 year maximum, the application is fully revised and sent to embassy dictating the future of the applicant where I deem your application worthy of revision, once again. If I like the bank statements I let you pass, if I dislike your primary institution I say bye-bye. If I notice your car is just like mine and your apartment is at the beach and I like it, I let you get an interview appointment. It is all matter of luck and contacts.
On the day of the interview you are expected to arrive 2 hours early, mind you the line to access the embassy is 4 blocks long and thus you will have to come by 8 hours before your interview and stand outside.
After you enter you are briefed and checked for weapons, just like the airport. You are told to sit down along with 100 people and wait your turn. The interview might last from 5 minutes to 1 hour, it depends in my mood. If you are wearing a piercing in your eyebrow or have a tatoo on your face I cordially let you know to exit the embassy before starting the interview. If it all goes well, I congratulate you and then invite you to go ahead to the next booth and pay the amazing amount of $1000 per card covering impression services. The Fedex has to be paid by you when it arrives. Meanwhile, you can wait 6 months to receive your legal document. Yay! But wait, there is more! If I know that you lied to me, whether it was your chronic condition or your primary school name, I can terminate your status even before you get the physical document and erase you from future applications for the next 5 years.

Now, as you can see the process is a pain in the **. And no one wants to put up with those kind of things. Well, at least not a person that has the immediate need of finding a job and provide food and support for his family in starvation.

Also, the application process varies in every country and type of visa!

Blessings!
-M

@bolded. Right, so an immediate need of job and to support the family motivates them to settle in the US (obviously the welfare state for the world), compared to other industrialized countries (not sure why won't they migrate to Brazil, possibly due to location factor). Sorry, but that's really a poor excuse. Families are impoverished in Africa, Middle East and much of Asia, but they don't fly like droves to illegally settle in industrialized countries (though few such instances occur in France). Undocumented aliens are just populating the US simply to take advantage of the country's generous welfare system. I don't blame them. Mexico and Latin America are a definite hellhole plagued with corruption, but that doesn't justify them to migrate like flies into the US. Come here legally regardless of your situation. The US also house refugees, who obviously face worse conditions than these illegal aliens.

Interesting info nonetheless, and I appreciate the fact that unlike most premeds here, you actually answered my question.

 

[Mr Avante]

@bolded. Right, so an immediate need of job and to support the family motivates them to settle in the US (obviously the welfare state for the world), compared to other industrialized countries (not sure why won't they migrate to Brazil, possibly due to location factor). Sorry, but that's really a poor excuse. Families are impoverished in Africa, Middle East and much of Asia, but they don't fly like droves to illegally settle in industrialized countries (though few such instances occur in France). Undocumented aliens are just populating the US simply to take advantage of the country's generous welfare system. I don't blame them. Mexico and Latin America are a definite hellhole plagued with corruption, but that doesn't justify them to migrate like flies into the US. Come here legally regardless of your situation. The US also house refugees, who obviously face worse conditions than these illegal aliens.

Interesting info nonetheless, and I appreciate the fact that unlike most premeds here, you actually answered my question.

No problem. I actually liked writing that stuff for you.
The thing is, United States if far from Africa and Brazil but close to Mexico. I might not know all the reasons for them to immigrate to the US but they are many.
Research points to the fact that Immigrants come to the US because of the job opportunities, I know, supposedly we are jobless. However, even though there are a lack of jobs in the wall-mart or corner-store/cubicle sector, there are a lot of jobs out there in the fields such as oil drilling and vegetable hand-picking due to the hazards of such.
I know that welfare sounds like a reasonable answer but we tried to cut it in the past. 20 years ago, or 25, the government canceled all health and welfare benefits to immigrants only leaving the emergency services which were largely denied trying to reduce the influx of immigration. It didn't work, because the job opportunities are the primary driving force of immigration.
By the way, the US dollar is worth a lot in 3rd world countries. Just something to think about
I can get you the citation and an article for this, I left the book in my car where the info is found.

 

[274631]

Pons already disproved your first assertion, so I won't bother. I'll focus on the bolded.

Again, I have no problem with immigrants settling here to seek autonomy and pursue happiness. Why not come here LEGALLY though? Just answer this question rather than assuming I'm xenophobic.

I am by no means advocating for illegal immigration, however comments like these are rather ignorant of the very real difficulty in getting into the United States legally. Most poor people in foreign countries simply do not have the resources to apply to come here legally. The very process of getting a non immigrant VISA costs hundreds of dollars just to get interviewed, with no guarantee of being granted a VISA after your interview. Often times you have to prove you have some sort of financial ties to your home country to get approved. And it is significantly harder to get an immigrant (Green Card, etc) VISA. All these comments about how lax US immigration laws are simply baffle me. The US is one of the hardest countries to enter legally- which would explain (in addition to the proximity) why there is such a large illegal population. People are desperate for work and money to support their families and sometimes see no other way. The US dollar can have a significant impact on the quality of life an impoverished family has. I am not saying what they do is morally right or wrong, but the fact that people cannot seem to wrap their heads around why someone would immigrate illegally baffles me.

@bolded. Right, so an immediate need of job and to support the family motivates them to settle in the US (obviously the welfare state for the world), compared to other industrialized countries (not sure why won't they migrate to Brazil, possibly due to location factor). Sorry, but that's really a poor excuse. Families are impoverished in Africa, Middle East and much of Asia, but they don't fly like droves to illegally settle in industrialized countries (though few such instances occur in France). Undocumented aliens are just populating the US simply to take advantage of the country's generous welfare system. I don't blame them. Mexico and Latin America are a definite hellhole plagued with corruption, but that doesn't justify them to migrate like flies into the US. Come here legally regardless of your situation. The US also house refugees, who obviously face worse conditions than these illegal aliens.

Interesting info nonetheless, and I appreciate the fact that unlike most premeds here, you actually answered my question.

See below quote for my response to this. Where are you getting this idea from? Illegal immigrants DO NOT have access to most (if any) welfare services. Please list these services they are supposedly coming to the US for.

No problem. I actually liked writing that stuff for you.
The thing is, United States if far from Africa and Brazil but close to Mexico. I might not know all the reasons for them to immigrate to the US but they are many.
Research points to the fact that Immigrants come to the US because of the job opportunities, I know, supposedly we are jobless. However, even though there are a lack of jobs in the wall-mart or corner-store/cubicle sector, there are a lot of jobs out there in the fields such as oil drilling and vegetable hand-picking due to the hazards of such.
I know that welfare sounds like a reasonable answer but we tried to cut it in the past. 20 years ago, or 25, the government canceled all health and welfare benefits to immigrants only leaving the emergency services which were largely denied trying to reduce the influx of immigration. It didn't work, because the job opportunities are the primary driving force of immigration.
By the way, the US dollar is worth a lot in 3rd world countries. Just something to think about
I can get you the citation and an article for this, I left the book in my car where the info is found.

You wrote my response for me!

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Summary of the Senate bill that passed:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/immigration-bill-summary-93557.html

 

[Lamel]

So why can't they get in line and do things the right way just like everyone else?

My parents spent a long time waiting for their visas so that they could come to this country and have better lives. So have many others.

For some it isn't as easy as this. Most people who are crossing the border are doing it for their families too; sometimes the best option for them is not the legal one.

Not condoning it, but I do understand it. Until you see the poor from other impoverished countries trying to make it in the world, you won't understand.

Yup exactly. But most premeds here (and college students) ENDORSE this legislation for some unknown reason. Oh well.

Because not everything in this world revolves around being pre-med or going to college. Some things are bigger than that in the grand scheme of things.

 

[487806]

Because not everything in this world revolves around being pre-med or going to college. Some things are bigger than that in the grand scheme of things.

I'm criticizing the so-called "feigned altruism" that most premeds seem to have here. Anyhow, the discussion has reached an impasse. I understood clearly why illegal aliens come here (looking for better opportunities that aren't found in their pathetic hellhole of their hometown etc.). But, it'd be better if they actually came here legally without having to risk deportation back into their home country. But the strong leftists in this thread will disagree nonetheless and somehow drag incessantly.

 

[BlueCircle]

Do any of you guys feel guilty thinking this way?
I completely disagree with Loyola and I almost feel bad for thinking this way. I feel like I am being selfish and acting entitled. However, my feelings against this policy are stronger than my guilt.

Because you are acting in that fashion. Listen up, I can guarantee you that the number of applications received from this group will be insignificantly small, far to small to make Med School 1% more competitive. So stop worrying about insignificant things like this

 

[SunsFun]

I don't want to get involved in this debate just wanted to point out that illegal immigration happens all over the world on a fairly massive scale. Take a country like Russia. It is much poorer than the U.S., yet only in Moscow there are hundreds of thousands maybe even millions of illegal immigrants from Central Asia and Middle East working dead-end construction jobs to support their families. Same is true of Arabian Peninsula, developed Far East, and Western Europe. Even South Africa has some issues with illegal immigration.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Because you are acting in that fashion. Listen up, I can guarantee you that the number of applications received from this group will be insignificantly small, far to small to make Med School 1% more competitive. So stop worrying about insignificant things like this

The problem is that that 1% is 2-3 seats in a lot of classes, and basically everyone who got rejected from that program, their #1 choice, feels monumentally cheated.

 

[Radon XP]

"Illegal" immigration in America is a relatively new political problem that's been capitalized on by vulture politicians in order to further pit poor people against each other.

Instead of getting mad at illegal immigrants for "stealing" your job because they work for next to nothing, why don't you get mad at the capitalists who are all to eager to hire illegal immigrants to work for next to nothing?


Misdirected anger. Illegal immigrants are human beings, too.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

"Illegal" immigration in America is a relatively new political problem that's been capitalized on by vulture politicians in order to further pit poor people against each other.

Instead of getting mad at illegal immigrants for "stealing" your job because they work for next to nothing, why don't you get mad at the capitalists who are all to eager to hire illegal immigrants to work for next to nothing?


Misdirected anger. Illegal immigrants are human beings, too.

So are capitalists.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

"Illegal" immigration in America is a relatively new political problem that's been capitalized on by vulture politicians in order to further pit poor people against each other.

Instead of getting mad at illegal immigrants for "stealing" your job because they work for next to nothing, why don't you get mad at the capitalists who are all to eager to hire illegal immigrants to work for next to nothing?


Misdirected anger. Illegal immigrants are human beings, too.

No.

There were illegal Chinese immigrants in the late 1800s, especially after 1882. It has been an issue for a very long time.

 

[487806]

"Illegal" immigration in America is a relatively new political problem that's been capitalized on by vulture politicians in order to further pit poor people against each other.

Instead of getting mad at illegal immigrants for "stealing" your job because they work for next to nothing, why don't you get mad at the capitalists who are all to eager to hire illegal immigrants to work for next to nothing?


Misdirected anger. Illegal immigrants are human beings, too.

Newsflash: Marxism is a failed system.

Plus, as Pons said, capitalists are also humans, so take your Marxist beliefs elsewhere.

 

[Radon XP]

No.

There were illegal Chinese immigrants in the late 1800s, especially after 1882. It has been an issue for a very long time.

Nay. What I meant is that immigration to the United States has always been straightforward and citizenship used to be very easy to get (you literally arrived at Ellis Island or another processing center, swore an oath, and became a citizen, as long as you weren't infectious or insane).

All this new regulation is...new, and the xenophobia directed at "illegals" is misplaced.

Also, you must be referring to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882; in which case, of course they were "illegal", but not because they attempted to take the "easy way in". Look at a timeline of immigration.

Newsflash: Marxism is a failed system.

Newsflash: Marxism, which I'm sure you know nothing about, isn't a political system. It's a sociological-economic school of thought.

I think you meant socialism, or communism; in which case, I disagree, but you are entitled to your misinformed opinion.

Never said I was a Marxist either.

Plus, as Pons said, capitalists are also humans, so take your Marxist beliefs elsewhere.

That's true, but it's somehow much more difficult to feel sympathetic for wealthy bankers who pay thousands of workers peanuts than it is for their workers.

 

[487806]

Newsflash: Marxism, which I'm sure you know nothing about, isn't a political system. It's a sociological-economic school of thought.

I think you meant socialism, or communism; in which case, I disagree, but you are entitled to your misinformed opinion.

Never said I was a Marxist either.



That's true, but it's somehow much more difficult to feel sympathetic for wealthy bankers who pay thousands of workers peanuts than it is for their workers.

man, you're so good in inferring something I never mentioned. I never said marxism was w political system, so brilliant assunption there.

 

[Radon XP]

man, you're so good in inferring something I never mentioned. I never said marxism was w political system, so brilliant assunption there.

lol. Then you'd have to explain how that school of thought is a "failed system".

 

[487806]

lol. Then you'd have to explain how that school of thought is a "failed system".

My post got cut off because of bad reception. I'll continue later. To be brief, conflict theory isn't the best solution.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

This thread is heading down a freshman political theory course rabbit hole at an astonishing rate.

 

[aggiea1]

lol this thread is hilarious at its best and depressing at its worse...
Honestly, if you're a competitive applicant, you're competitive...regardless of citizenship...
We want our physicians to be competent, regardless of citizenship...

 

[Ace-Co-A]

lol this thread is hilarious at its best and depressing at its worse...
Honestly, if you're a competitive applicant, you're competitive...regardless of citizenship...
We want our physicians to be competent, regardless of citizenship...

Strong necrobump.

 

[aggiea1]

Strong necrobump.

I had to look up what "necrobump" is haha
I am neither a troll nor trying to revive the forum
I simply got accepted to Loyola and wanted to see what ppl thought about the whole thing...
and honestly, geesh...sad day -____-

 

[JakeTheDog]

Okay guys as someone with direct benefits from this, I'll try my best to show you my side of the argument. I am an illegal immigrant. My family brought me to this country from India when I was 7 years old. I went to elementary school with you guys, I sang the pledge of allegiance with you guys, I graduated high school with you guys, and through a lot of struggles, attended a top tier university with you guys. My dad although he may be an illegal immigrant does have a tax payers id and pays his taxes. So why is it frowned upon for me to attend medical school? essentially I'm no different from any of you. I maintained my 3.6 gpa. I have my published research papers, I have my clinical volunteering and humanitarian volunteering so why is it that I'm not allowed to be a doctor in the country I call home? What DACA does is give people like me work authorization so there is no worry about getting matched. Our political climate suggests that comprehensive immigrant reform is just around the corner. both parties have different ideologies towards it but what they both agree on is allowing people in my position to become productive members of society. Besides, not many DACA recipient even make it this far. There are already too many obstacles in the way to even get to the position of applying to med school.

 

[487806]

Okay guys as someone with direct benefits from this, I'll try my best to show you my side of the argument. I am an illegal immigrant. My family brought me to this country from India when I was 7 years old. I went to elementary school with you guys, I sang the pledge of allegiance with you guys, I graduated high school with you guys, and through a lot of struggles, attended a top tier university with you guys. My dad although he may be an illegal immigrant does have a tax payers id and pays his taxes. So why is it frowned upon for me to attend medical school? essentially I'm no different from any of you. I maintained my 3.6 gpa. I have my published research papers, I have my clinical volunteering and humanitarian volunteering so why is it that I'm not allowed to be a doctor in the country I call home? What DACA does is give people like me work authorization so there is no worry about getting matched. Our political climate suggests that comprehensive immigrant reform is just around the corner. both parties have different ideologies towards it but what they both agree on is allowing people in my position to become productive members of society. Besides, not many DACA recipient even make it this far. There are already too many obstacles in the way to even get to the position of applying to med school.

Yeah, I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole. Sad story sure, but could you not revive this dead debate? Thanks

 

[JakeTheDog]

Yeah, I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole. Sad story sure, but could you not revive this dead debate? Thanks

Yea I just realized how old this thread was. Sorry new SDNer I just saw it on the forum and thought it was an ongoing discussion.

 

[Deco0826]

So why can't they get in line and do things the right way just like everyone else?

My parents spent a long time waiting for their visas so that they could come to this country and have better lives. So have many others.

Having gone through the process myself and having 'waited in the line', a lot of these people do not have the resources to pay for the process. Thankfully the company which my father works for offered to pay the fees of obtaining citizenship.

 

[deanthedream17]

Your skepticism is a weak argument against that. The thing is, they haven't gotten into the profession.. how can you know the outcome? Many schools have missions to provide care in underserved areas, do they really doubt that their students (who get into a 200k/year profession) won't provide such care?

talking to my dean at my school, he said underrepresented are 3x less likely than their counterparts to go back to those areas despite the URM argument. The truth is they want to just increase the numbers in general.