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It’s Just a Virus, the E.R. Told Him. Days Later, He Was Dead.
Sam Terblanche was just 20 years old. Can a busy E.R. handle the hardest cases?
No, you see you’re just supposed to never miss anything while avoiding any imaging or admissions while billing maximum critical care and keeping door to doc times down with a smile. Then go back to playing anesthesiologist while you’re being an Orthopedic surgeon cardiologist neurologist and plastics specialist every weeknight and all hours on weekends.The general public doesn’t understand it is standard of care to miss the zebras. You can’t admit everybody until they’re feeling well. Also, it’s ridiculous there’s a lawsuit when even the autopsy is inconclusive. Unfortunately, bad things happen but it doesn’t mean it was somebody’s fault.
Its always somebody’s fault unfortunately in the US. Natural death seems to be a foreign concept especially in younger people.The general public doesn’t understand it is standard of care to miss the zebras. You can’t admit everybody until they’re feeling well. Also, it’s ridiculous there’s a lawsuit when even the autopsy is inconclusive. Unfortunately, bad things happen but it doesn’t mean it was somebody’s fault.
No, you see you’re just supposed to never miss anything while avoiding any imaging or admissions while billing maximum critical care and keeping door to doc times down with a smile. Then go back to playing anesthesiologist while you’re being an Orthopedic surgeon cardiologist neurologist and plastics specialist every weeknight and all hours on weekends.
Oh and don’t forget Dr. abc wants to be called for all his patients and the patients of Dr. xyz, he was very upset when his patient got admitted to the regular hospitalist service at 3am after he failed to answer the phone for two hours
It’s not that hard
The general public doesn’t understand it is standard of care to miss the zebras. You can’t admit everybody until they’re feeling well. Also, it’s ridiculous there’s a lawsuit when even the autopsy is inconclusive. Unfortunately, bad things happen but it doesn’t mean it was somebody’s fault.
Real question. In a young, previously healthy patient with normal respiratory mechanics (rate and effort),clear lungs, and a normal O2 sat in whom you're not chasing PTX, when was the last time the CXR provided actionable info?Ugh...too long. I read most of it.
Understand why parents are absolutely mortified. Unfortunately this is a 1 in a million case. Maybe even less (one in two million?).
I would have gotten a chest xray on the second visit. Why save resources for a simple CXR?
I've got bad news but ordering labs and imaging isn't what keeps your name out of the news. Keeping your name out of the news would mean not seeing any patients. The number of patients you see is what directly correlates to your chances of getting sued. It's not if you do or don't order ridiculous stuff, it's not if you're a good or bad doctor, it's how many patients you see.I think the article said he was quite tachycardic on discharge. Frankly I’d have thrown in a trop and dimer the second time he was there. Almost sounds like a multisystem inflammatory syndrome. I’ve become really liberal with ordering labs/imaging. Patients love tests and helps keep my name out of the news. My job is not to clear the waiting room.
When I saw that and also saw that so far the cause of death has been inconclusive, I immediately think of things like a sodium of 134, ALT of 51, etc.The article says there were some lab abnormalities. Would love to see what they were. I'll reserve opinion until I get the full details of the case, which I'll probably never have. Always hate lawsuits, but sometimes people do mess up. We're only human. Not saying the docs messed up in this case, but if labs were abnormal would be interested in seeing what they were.
When I saw that and also saw that so far the cause of death has been inconclusive, I immediately think of things like a sodium of 134, ALT of 51, etc.
Real question. In a young, previously healthy patient with normal respiratory mechanics (rate and effort),clear lungs, and a normal O2 sat in whom you're not chasing PTX, when was the last time the CXR provided actionable info?
What the kid really needed was good discharge instructions (come back if you're having trouble catching your breath at rest) and an understanding that this *looks* like a virus but we haven't found the cause and if things get worse come back again. Probably wouldn't have mattered but until he started hemorrhaging into his lungs it doesn't sound like any of the tests we do that would have been reasonable would have been useful.
USucS claims they get sued at a fraction of general EM docs.. of course.. not published data. But they love spewing it. Even have it on their website i think.I've got bad news but ordering labs and imaging isn't what keeps your name out of the news. Keeping your name out of the news would mean not seeing any patients. The number of patients you see is what directly correlates to your chances of getting sued. It's not if you do or don't order ridiculous stuff, it's not if you're a good or bad doctor, it's how many patients you see.
USucS claims they get sued at a fraction of general EM docs.. of course.. not published data. But they love spewing it. Even have it on their website i think.
I swear it mentioned pancytopenia but I may have hallucinated that.The article says there were some lab abnormalities. Would love to see what they were. I'll reserve opinion until I get the full details of the case, which I'll probably never have. Always hate lawsuits, but sometimes people do mess up. We're only human. Not saying the docs messed up in this case, but if labs were abnormal would be interested in seeing what they were.
We have somehow managed to avoid someone adding a sepsis alert at my normal hospitals. Picked up some shifts with another part of our group to help out. Different health system. It was winter time. Every influenza patient had a sepsis alert. Wtf am I supposed to do with this information?The Reddit crowd is amusingly different than the one on this site. We're the old jerks who have seen the "standard of care" degrade into mindless pan-testing. Did the kid *need* a CXR? Nah. Reasonable either way, and we don't have the information say otherwise based on that article. The younger crowd is ready to throw clinical judgment to the wolves.
Not nearly enough appreciation for the inane "sepsis alert", and the perspective of "the alert said he had sepsis, why not just order antibiotics?" either. That sort of diagnostic anchoring is just as likely to contribute to missed and delayed diagnoses of alternative conditions.
I think the data is even worse than "how many patients you see." Isn't it just "time in practice?" That's what I remember reading a few years ago.I've got bad news but ordering labs and imaging isn't what keeps your name out of the news. Keeping your name out of the news would mean not seeing any patients. The number of patients you see is what directly correlates to your chances of getting sued. It's not if you do or don't order ridiculous stuff, it's not if you're a good or bad doctor, it's how many patients you see.
Give 30 ml / kg, send a lactate and blood cultures, give IV antibiotics, admit, and bill 60 mins of 99291.We have somehow managed to avoid someone adding a sepsis alert at my normal hospitals. Picked up some shifts with another part of our group to help out. Different health system. It was winter time. Every influenza patient had a sepsis alert. Wtf am I supposed to do with this information?
There is some evidence that amount of tests is inversely associated with malpractice claims. Physician spending and subsequent risk of malpractice claims: observational studyI've got bad news but ordering labs and imaging isn't what keeps your name out of the news. Keeping your name out of the news would mean not seeing any patients. The number of patients you see is what directly correlates to your chances of getting sued. It's not if you do or don't order ridiculous stuff, it's not if you're a good or bad doctor, it's how many patients you see.
I've encountered emergency physicians on reddit who say they NEVER discharge a tachycardic patient.I DC tachycardic patients all the time. After searching for a reason ofc. And no I don't CTA them all. Are you supposed to admit every tachycardia person who feels well? I am already pretty conservative compared to my group with above avg admission and imaging rates. People don't understand the function of the ED. I can't wait to get out.
I briefly scanned that study but it focused on obstetrics and specialties with hospital admissions. I didn’t dig deep into it but it looks like they used total hospital charges as using higher resources. It makes logical sense, at least to me, that patients with higher hospital charges are likely sicker and in the hospital longer so it makes sense there’s a higher likelihood of malpractice with them. I don’t really see how this study is applicable to EM.There is some evidence that amount of tests is inversely associated with malpractice claims. Physician spending and subsequent risk of malpractice claims: observational study
(But certainly your point still stands.)
If they had gotten a chest x ray, there would be at least 2 less paragraphs in this article. Lawyers and the family are certainly noting the lack of that test. What it would have shown is a question without an answer and creates a large canvas for others to paint a story of "malpractice". For me, I dont put much thought into x rays. They're relatively cheap and fast. They're relatively low risk. They're a crowd pleaser. I dont order chest x rays on every person with a cough, but my threshold to do so is fairly low.
Just wanted to reply to myself noting that my last two discharges tonight were mildly tachycardic.I've encountered emergency physicians on reddit who say they NEVER discharge a tachycardic patient.
Then you have encountered some really bad ER docs or more likely non ABEM docs. This is just an insane stance coming from any competent ER doc.I've encountered emergency physicians on reddit who say they NEVER discharge a tachycardic patient.
I can imagine what my conversation with hospitalist would be.Just wanted to reply to myself noting that my last two discharges tonight were mildly tachycardic.
I would highly caution against routinely discharging unexplained tachycardia.
Research has shown that unexplained tachycardia has been present in a high percentage of patients who have died shortly after being discharged from the ED.
Unanticipated death after discharge home from the emergency department
The post above you: blunt instrument, crayonRate of death in their study is estimated at 30 out of 100,000.
How many of the other 99,970 had tachycardia at discharge? No data – but, obviously, many. And they lived.
Not something to get hung up on as a "discharge block", just a reminder that abnormal vital signs ought to be 1) recognized, 2) have a bit of a thought.
Btw for anyone thinking that admission is some kind of panacea to risk: I know of multiple pending cases where the EP recognized that something was off, admitted the patient, the patient had a bad outcome inpatient, and the EP was named.
The field, and generally medicine, are trash.
Lurking students: for your own sake, choose a field that minimizes this risk and avoids you having to be beholden to a hospital. Derm, PM&R. Or a field where you generate so much money for the hospital that it doesn't matter what you do (Ortho). Don't fall for the same trap we did.
Maybe it’s just me but I’m not sure if you’ve ever made a post where you didn’t voice your displeasure for EM and medicine in general. While medicine (and EM) has its warts and it’s easy to fall into a negative attitude around SDN, I look forward to the day where you finally practice what you preach and leave the field. I hope you find the happiness you’re looking for but you seem like a chronically unhappy person.The field, and generally medicine, are trash.