Tiers for MSTPs

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dontknowkarate

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So I was telling someone I was considering going to Emory's MSTP over Vanderbilt MSTP, and they said something like "why would you do that? you know Emory is a tier lower than VAnderbilt". So how would one split the MSTPs into tiers?

A friend and I came up with this list, based on our impressions on how people tend to rank them in this way (meaning, if they got into two schools in different tiers they would pick the one in the higher tier):

top tier: Harvard, Penn, Tri-I, WashU, Hopkins, UCSF, UW, Michigan, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, UChicago

2nd tier: UCSD, Pitt, UCLA, Vanderbilt, Baylor, Northwestern, Sinai

3rd tier: Case, Emory, UTSW, UNC, Mayo, NYU, Einstein

4th tier: UVa, UAB, Colorado, Iowa, Wisconsin

5th tier: UCI, Tufts, Stony Brook

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Not sure what the point of this is. Why not state tiers in threes? Everyone knows three is the best number. And everyone knows that the best three programs in the country, without any debate whatsoever, are Cornell, Columbia, and NYU. Obviously that's because they are all in NYC, the best city in the world.

All kidding aside, this list is just your subjective opinion and shouldn't be taken by anyone to have any other merit. There are so many variables to compare it's almost silly to try to rank programs this way. Many of those variables may be completely independent of the quality of the program and have everything to do with location, reimbursement, or quality of life.

Maybe you could argue that the bigger/biggest programs are the best and afford the most flexibility in training and support. I think few would argue that. Otherwise, I think it's better to pick programs based on their strengths in your area of interest (genetics/neuroscience/engineering/immunology, etc.) and other personal factors. You'll find later on it doesn't matter as much where you went, but how well you did and how productive you were. There are probably a few programs out there that academic snobs will say have the best reputation and may help you later on, but they are only a fraction of your "top tier" category... and depending on your area of interest would include other programs not on your "top tier".
 
The concept of tiers doesn't apply to medical schools. Just because the tier is higher doesn't mean it will be a good fit for you, and 99% of residency directors won't give a crap what hypothetical tier your school is in.
 
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The concept of tiers doesn't apply to medical schools. Just because the tier is higher doesn't mean it will be a good fit for you, and 99% of residency directors won't give a crap what hypothetical tier your school is in.

i think it's at least somewhat useful for applicants choosing what schools to apply to with respect to how competitive the schools are.
 
I guess you could say that I am / was in a similar situation, choosing between Pittsburgh and Emory. However, I agree that the "tier" of the program cannot be judged from an overall program point of view. I think some programs are far better than others for different fields of study. In my situation for example, I was choosing between studying engineering at Georgia Tech or Pittsburgh. In my opinion, Georgia Tech provides superior engineering training than Pittsburgh, so therefore Emory would be a better choice. I think you should weight what is most important to you, and the strength / amount of possible mentors at each school, as opposed to what other people may feel the "tier" of the school is.

Also, I remember meeting you at Emory's second look but I can't seem to put a face to your situation. Hopefully I'll see you at Emory next year! Good luck with your decision.
 
Exactly what I'm thinking. For example, NYU and Einstein are ranked #30 and #40 which is lower than the other ones in its tier. But both of those schools get ~400 applications. On the other hand Emory and UTSW are ranked higher but they get something like 250 applications for a similar number of slots in the program. After visiting some of these schools in the south and midwest, I can understand why...
Also I felt that my peers interviewing at NYU and Einstein were more-overachiever-ish/gunner/probably have higher stats than the ones I met at Emory/UTSW etc. Although I wouldn't bump them to the next category up because their programs just don't stack up against Northwestern/Baylor/etc.

i think it's at least somewhat useful for applicants choosing what schools to apply to with respect to how competitive the schools are.
 
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I think some programs are far better than others for different fields of study. In my situation for example, I was choosing between studying engineering at Georgia Tech or Pittsburgh. In my opinion, Georgia Tech provides superior engineering training than Pittsburgh, so therefore Emory would be a better choice. I think you should weight what is most important to you, and the strength / amount of possible mentors at each school, as opposed to what other people may feel the "tier" of the school is.

+1. The biggest advantage you'll get from the school you attend is the mentorship & getting to know people who are "known" in their field. This doesn't always correlate 1:1 with a school's prestige. If you have some fields of interest you are considering, check out the departments of some of the schools you are considering.
 
i think it's at least somewhat useful for applicants choosing what schools to apply to with respect to how competitive the schools are.

You can see exactly how "competitive" programs are by their selectivity, which is in the US News ranking system (Which also sucks for its own reasons). When I applied, the two most selective schools in the country were WashU and Baylor, but I'm also sure that dispite this they didn't get as many applications as some other programs simply because of location. From what I can tell, there is not a good correlation (in general) between those programs listed as "top tier" and selectivity, although most are outstanding programs. I think most distinctions are arbitrary. Why, for example, is U Chicago top tier, while NWestern is 2nd tier?

...But again, what is the point in this? I still don't really get it. So program A's average MCAT is 35 and GPA is 3.7 and Program B's ave MCAT is 36 and GPA is 3.6. And you'd rather live in NYC than Indianapolis, or Dallas, even though you've probably never been to those places. Doesn't really speak directly about the quality of training you'll get there. That's even a problem with selectivity. Maybe it helps you sleep at night knowing you got into a program with average MCAT scores 0.002 points higher than some other school, I don't know. If you can get into Harvard, maybe you can brag to people that you go to school "in Boston" without tellling them it's Harvard, because you'll know they'll guess that. I guess that's something. Maybe that name will help you later on. Maybe- don't count on it to carry you over others who trained elsewhere but had more impressive resumes.

I'll just end by telling you guys that I did an elective at Penn, thinking that I would do residency there. I told a lot of people where I was going, and most replied "Penn? They have a good football team!" I would reply by telling most of them that Penn is an Ivy league school, founded by Ben Franklin. Most responses were "If it's so great, then how come I've never heard of it?"
 
as you pointed out the us news ranking is lacking. also, beyond numbers, it's hard to grasp competitiveness for me. i have no interest in prestige - location is important for me as i've spent a lot of time all over the states and the world but for someone like me, who has low numbers, i would like to know where i should apply without having to apply to dozens of programs. maybe we're talking apples and oranges here, but some arbitrary hierarchy has some limited utility imho. yeah, i get it... how well you fit with a program will ultimately have nothing to do with this arbitrary ranking, but it gives an applicant a springboard in determining where to apply.
 
Seems kinda useless to me... certain schools have a name-brand appeal to them, sure, but that only gets you so far.

If you come from a "lower tier" school but have 10 publications in three years you're going to look like a rock star. If you come from Harvard but only have one publication in Albanian Journal of Undergraduate Medicine you're going to look like a fool. The school matters waaay less than what you accomplish while you're there.

Sure, some schools are going to set you up to accomplish more (more publications) if every PI is either a friend of Howard Hughes or else they have an R37 MERIT award or some other liberal source of funding. But even if you come from these labs, your research ends up looking suspiciously similar to what your PI had proposed five years before you enrolled.

Whereas if you go to Local State University you might have the opportunity to develop your own research that's obviously the fruit of your own ideas and hard work. This looks pretty awesome too.
 
If you come from a "lower tier" school but have 10 publications in three years you're going to look like a rock star. If you come from Harvard but only have one publication in Albanian Journal of Undergraduate Medicine you're going to look like a fool. The school matters waaay less than what you accomplish while you're there.

Matters to whom? My experience in applying to rad onc residency was that clinical performance was what mattered the most. Research pedigree was not all that important, as long as PhD was in hand. It mattered more to have done research within rad onc for one year than a whole PhD, and clinical publications counted the same as basic publications at most programs. I had considered strongly applying in radiology and have the same impression there as well.

Your post just rubbed me a bit the wrong way based on my experience. I don't think one lower tier publication in 3 years makes one look like a fool when it comes to residency applications.

I agree with the other posters that this proposed tier system is kind of ridiculous. I've been saying for years that when it comes to MSTPs you might as well break it roughly down into top-20 US News schools, 20-50 and still MSTP, and non-MSTPs. i.e. Maybe someone might notice the difference between approximately 20 ranks in those rankings. Maybe. But it probably means nothing. The research rankings are based mostly on research funding of the medical school and affiliated institutions, so that is why I give it some validity. Emory vs. Vanderbilt is a ridiculous distinction, and I don't know anyone outside of pre-meds that would consider one to be much stronger than the other.
 
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Your post just rubbed me a bit the wrong way based on my experience. I don't think one lower tier publication in 3 years makes one look like a fool when it comes to residency applications.

That's too bad, because after reading your post I think that you and are more-or-less in agreement. So let me rephrase:

If you went to Harvard for MD/PhD and only have one publication in low tier journal and you think you're going to be more impressive than someone from a "low tier" school even if they have 10 publications, I think you'll find that you're mistaken.​

Based on my experience with faculty hiring, a search committee is a lot more influenced by an applicant's personal success than the school where they were doing their research. I haven't been through the residency match process, but if their priorities are vastly different from what I've seen for faculty hiring at a med school then I'll eat my hat.

The research rankings are based mostly on research funding of the medical school and affiliated institutions, so that is why I give it some validity.

This is fine but I think it's a crude measure because it only compares total dollars across many different fields of research, while a student's training is likely to be in one specific field.

For example, the school where I did my PhD has never been a top-ranking school for research according to US News. But when you look just at grants from the NIH for just neurosciences (my area of research), my school has usually been in the top 10 schools for the last decade (and was #2 for a couple of years while I was there).
 
Based on my experience with faculty hiring, a search committee is a lot more influenced by an applicant's personal success than the school where they were doing their research. I haven't been through the residency match process, but if their priorities are vastly different from what I've seen for faculty hiring at a med school then I'll eat my hat.

They are indeed vastly different. School reputation is not a big factor, but neither is research abilities/prowess in those specialties I mentioned. Important factors are: step 1 score, med school grades, letters of recommendation, step 2 score, research in that specific specialty. Roughly in that order of importance.

As for faculty hiring, it's very different depending on the department. I suspect you are talking about basic science faculty hiring. Clinical departments have entirely different priorities, and even for MD/PhDs those are often clinically based measures.
 
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Ok so as long as your school is top 20 then its considered just as good as the other top 20's?

I agree with the other posters that this proposed tier system is kind of ridiculous. I've been saying for years that when it comes to MSTPs you might as well break it roughly down into top-20 US News schools, 20-50 and still MSTP, and non-MSTPs. i.e. Maybe someone might notice the difference between approximately 20 ranks in those rankings. Maybe. But it probably means nothing. The research rankings are based mostly on research funding of the medical school and affiliated institutions, so that is why I give it some validity. Emory vs. Vanderbilt is a ridiculous distinction, and I don't know anyone outside of pre-meds that would consider one to be much stronger than the other.

Matters to whom? My experience in applying to rad onc residency was that clinical performance was what mattered the most. Research pedigree was not all that important, as long as PhD was in hand. It mattered more to have done research within rad onc for one year than a whole PhD, and clinical publications counted the same as basic publications at most programs. I had considered strongly applying in radiology and have the same impression there as well.

wait so if I want a residency in radiology then I should half-ass my PHD and get as many publications in clinical radiology as possible? I'm kind of confused here...everyone I met throughout the application season told me that the PhD will help you get into a top residency, so they say that you should choose a program based on where you want to live or what kind of research you want to do.

Like should I also choose a program based on whichever has easier requirements for me to complete a PhD (ie. fewer required publications/classes/etc) so that you can get more time to work on clinical publications and stuff?

They are indeed vastly different. School reputation is not a big factor, but neither is research abilities/prowess in those specialties I mentioned. Important factors are: step 1 score, med school grades, letters of recommendation, step 2 score, research in that specific specialty. Roughly in that order of importance.

As for faculty hiring, it's very different depending on the department. I suspect you are talking about basic science faculty hiring. Clinical departments have entirely different priorities, and even for MD/PhDs those are often clinically based measures.

why is step one score at the top of this list? I'm kind of confused on why its so important, its just one test. Like would you say its more important than the importance of MCAT in the application process?

So would it be a good idea to choose a school that specifically caters the curriculum towards step 1 success (USC)? I would actually be pretty pissed if say someone with a sky high step 1 and average research, clinical, etc. stole my position just because my step 1 was low...basically what happened this cycle where I had a pretty low GPA as an engineering major with several years of research experience (5-6+).
 
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wait so if I want a residency in radiology then I should half-ass my PHD and get as many publications in clinical radiology as possible? I'm kind of confused here...everyone I met throughout the application season told me that the PhD will help you get into a top residency, so they say that you should choose a program based on where you want to live or what kind of research you want to do.

Everyone you met throughout the application season is probably full of it. You probably didn't meet a single radiology faculty member and the students you talked to were probably almost entirely first years. The advice I'm giving may not apply to IM (though I often hear that it does nowadays) or pathology, which comprises the vast majority of MD/PhD program faculty members.

The most important factors are what I already commented on above. If you have AOA and a 260 step 1 score with a first author case series from a month of fourth year research, you will likely match to a top radiology program. If you have years of outstanding radiology research (as I did), are middle of your class (as I was), and have a 220 (national average) step 1 score (mine was higher... fortunately), you will absolutely not match anywhere near the top programs. If anything you will have a difficult time matching at all, and probably take a lower to mid tier academic program in the midwest, as community programs won't look at you and competitive locations are too competitive.

I didn't say half-ass your PhD, but I will say get a respectable PhD (i.e. one publication only is fine) within Radiology as quickly as possible with safe projects and move on. It will help to get at least one clinical publication as well if you have time in fourth year. When you go to get a faculty position they will be looking much more at whether they need someone trained in your fellowship area and your fellowship research. At that point what you did in graduate school is pretty much ignored unless it is exceptionally great, bad, or still directly related to what research you're doing at that point (unlikely).

Like should I also choose a program based on whichever has easier requirements for me to complete a PhD (ie. fewer required publications/classes/etc) so that you can get more time to work on clinical publications and stuff?

Yes. Not necessarily so you have more time to work on clinical publications, it's so you can get done the MD/PhD program in 7 years and not spend more time than you have to. Life looks a lot different when you're 30-35 and still in training than it does when you're 20-25.

why is step one score at the top of this list? I'm kind of confused on why its so important, its just one test. Like would you say its more important than the importance of MCAT in the application process?

Step 1 is the major cutoff for most programs. It is on par with the importance of the MCAT, except a few things. First, you're competing with other medical students who are very bright and motivated, instead of a lot of pre-meds who were just screwing around. Second, you can't retake step 1.

As for picking a school for step 1 studying, I think schools without pre-clinical grades are best. I mean even without exams is the absolute best like Yale. That way you can ignore the extraneous nonsense that professors often test on and spend your entire first 2 years focused towards step 1. Also, it's probably good to have 6 weeks or so of dedicated study time like medical students.

I would actually be pretty pissed if say someone with a sky high step 1 and average research, clinical, etc. stole my position just because my step 1 was low...

This is exactly what could happen. If you have a lower than national average step 1 score good luck matching radiology at all as an MD/PhD. This goes back to a blog entry I called the MD/PhD trap. If you are heavy in research, community programs take no interest in you. But the academic programs require a reasonably high step 1 score. A strong research app with a weak step 1 score is a recipe for not matching at all in a specialty like radiology, and I have seen not matching due to this scenario several times in my MD/PhD program. It is also similar to match at a not research heavy (lower tier academic) program if your research is strong but your clinical performance is just ok. Those who make decisions on who to interview and who to rank highest are often 100% clinical people who care about 100% clinical indicators and have no appreciation for basic science research.

Ok so as long as your school is top 20 then its considered just as good as the other top 20's?

Looking at where I and my friends at other schools matched, I don't think school rep matters much at all for residency.
 
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1. live only for step 1 during first two years
2. finish phd ASAP
3. live only for clinical grades during third year
4. maybe do clinical pub in fourth year

Got it. Does #2 apply to less competitive specialties like psych and neuro too?
 
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Got it. Does #2 apply to less competitive specialties like psych and neuro too?

I have a buddy who finished in 7 years with one first author field journal publication. He matched to a top psych program in a desirable location.

Also, 4th year is really important for letters of recommendation and away rotations. Try to start making connections in your field during your PhD if possible.
 
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The most important factors are what I already commented on above. If you have AOA and a 260 step 1 score with a first author case series from a month of fourth year research, you will likely match to a top radiology program. If you have years of outstanding radiology research (as I did), are middle of your class (as I was), and have a 220 (national average) step 1 score (mine was higher... fortunately), you will absolutely not match anywhere near the top programs. If anything you will have a difficult time matching at all, and probably take a lower to mid tier academic program in the midwest, as community programs won't look at you and competitive locations are too competitive.

Well damn, that sucks. Good stuff to know though. I will have to approach this game differently than I otherwise would have. Thanks for the input!
 
Well damn, that sucks. Good stuff to know though. I will have to approach this game differently than I otherwise would have. Thanks for the input!

:thumbup: To add to that: if you know what specialty you want to do, by all means do your PhD in that specialty. That is really important to competitive residencies. Otherwise you might find yourself being beaten out by medical students who took a year out and did research in that area. If anyone who has not been through the match recently gives you advice other than what I've given you in this thread, they are incorrect. My program would disagree with me on many of these points (if only in the past), and I think they are absolutely wrong.
 
It is also similar to match at a not research heavy (lower tier academic) program if your research is strong but your clinical performance is just ok.

For either Rad or Rad Onc, can a good step I score (>250) and PhD guarantee (or close to that) a residency position if core clerkship grades are mediocre? By mediocre I mean almost all passes.
 
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Just to add my 0.02, I go to perhaps one of the "lowest" tier programs in the nation (not MSTP), scored in the 230's on boards, was not AOA, did not honor any 3rd year rotations, and matched at my top choice for a residency I believe everyone will agree is more competitive than radiology at one of the most selective and elite programs in the nation. A major factor in that success was what I accomplished during the PhD.

So I agree it is more about who you are as a person and what you accomplish during your training than about reputation.

That being said, get a LOR from the chair at Hopkins.
 
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:thumbup: To add to that: if you know what specialty you want to do, by all means do your PhD in that specialty. That is really important to competitive residencies. Otherwise you might find yourself being beaten out by medical students who took a year out and did research in that area. If anyone who has not been through the match recently gives you advice other than what I've given you in this thread, they are incorrect. My program would disagree with me on many of these points (if only in the past), and I think they are absolutely wrong.

My goodness we have had such different experiences. I can only say that if your research is in something very specific, and is unrelated to your field choice, this statement may be more accurate. If you obtain any decent basic science training, I believe you can match into any program that values academicians in that you have been trained to think like a scientist, test your own ideas, evaluate data, judge the quality of journal papers, write your own manuscripts, understand the grant writing process, are older and more mature, and have faced the doldrum of hardship for many years with the promise of success in the future. That may just be my glass half full opinion, but hey, its mine dammit!
 
....research in that specific specialty.

You obviously know this, but a lot of MD/PhDs will choose to do research in basic science. When you do research on a very basic level it is very easy to relate whatever you study to virtually any medical specialty. The moment you study something like imaging or do clinical research in seems you lose that flexibility, although you may really know exactly what you want to do.

I my self am just starting out, but it is very easy to see that you don't have to do research in that "specific specialty" in order to do well, and it would be unfair to tell people to do so is necessary for success.
 
I my self am just starting out, but it is very easy to see that you don't have to do research in that "specific specialty" in order to do well, and it would be unfair to tell people to do so is necessary for success.

Doing research in your future residency area is very helpful, but not necessary. If you don't do research in your particular specialty area, that's where the 4th year clinical research will help you. Still, the most important factors are step 1 and AOA. You could do research in something very esoteric, but if you have a 260+ step 1 score, AOA, and great clinical letters you will likely match to a top program.

I personally think that studying cell/mol biology topics to the point of studying molecular pathways that are not specific to one disease might look fine to IM, path, or peds residencies. These are not competitive to begin with except at the top programs in desirable locations (same goes for neuro and psych). However, if you apply in radiology, adcoms will wonder what the heck you're going to do with that. Students will say "molecular imaging", but in reality that's not much of a sell. The same goes for rad onc. If you're thinking rad onc going into your PhD and you want to do basic cell biology, my advice would be to start thinking about DNA repair pathways and radiation or something similiar. If you end up applying to a med onc fast track residency, the work will still apply.

For either Rad or Rad Onc, can a good step I score (>250) and PhD guarantee (or close to that) a residency position if core clerkship grades are mediocre? By mediocre I mean almost all passes.

I'm honestly not sure. My thought is that you can make it work if you honor your rad onc elective, do two rad onc aways with great evals/letters, and don't have any glaring red flags on your application. You'd probably be well served by spending 2-3 months in your home rad onc department if you have time to do clinical research with them and buddy up to someone big name in your field. Apply broadly either way, and the midwest may likely be your friend. I know a guy who applied rads a few years ago who did manage to match in the northeast with a similar application (maybe stronger clinical performance), though it was bottom of his rank list at a lower-tier academic program.
 
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If you can get into Harvard, maybe you can brag to people that you go to school "in Boston" without tellling them it's Harvard, because you'll know they'll guess that.

LOL, so true. I thought I was the only one who noticed this.
 
I agree with the other posters that this proposed tier system is kind of ridiculous. I've been saying for years that when it comes to MSTPs you might as well break it roughly down into top-20 US News schools, 20-50 and still MSTP, and non-MSTPs. i.e. Maybe someone might notice the difference between approximately 20 ranks in those rankings. Maybe. But it probably means nothing. The research rankings are based mostly on research funding of the medical school and affiliated institutions, so that is why I give it some validity. Emory vs. Vanderbilt is a ridiculous distinction, and I don't know anyone outside of pre-meds that would consider one to be much stronger than the other.

Agreed. I think the best indicator that there is really no difference between schools is by looking at how often prominent faculty move between these institutions. Find strong researchers in whatever field you are in and look at their publications over time. You will see that they went from Vandy to UCSD to UW, etc.

All of the rankings/tiers stuff is really b.s. that US News uses to make a lot of money off of hyper-vigilant (and I would argue naive) pre-meds and their parents.
 
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that even though Vandy is not as prestigious as UCSD and UCSD is not as prestigious as UW, but if lots of professors from Vandy/UCSD get recruited to schools like UW, then Vandy/UCSD is a good place to train?

It seems like UAB is one of these schools, where UAB is not that prestigious but people will spend a handful of years there and eventually jump to a bigger-name institution. What are some others?

Agreed. I think the best indicator that there is really no difference between schools is by looking at how often prominent faculty move between these institutions. Find strong researchers in whatever field you are in and look at their publications over time. You will see that they went from Vandy to UCSD to UW, etc.

All of the rankings/tiers stuff is really b.s. that US News uses to make a lot of money off of hyper-vigilant (and I would argue naive) pre-meds and their parents.
 
What do you mean by this? Do you mean that even though Vandy is not as prestigious as UCSD and UCSD is not as prestigious as UW, but if lots of professors from Vandy/UCSD get recruited to schools like UW, then Vandy/UCSD is a good place to train?

It seems like UAB is one of these schools, where UAB is not that prestigious but people will spend a handful of years there and eventually jump to a bigger-name institution. What are some others?

Nope not what I meant at all. And Vandy, UCSD and UW are equally prestigious, IMO and I think most would agree.

My point is that faculty move between schools in the top 50 USNews all the time without hesitation. They go where they are getting the best financial offer, biggest startup package, etc. Obviously, once you are being considered for a position within these top schools as Faculty, the difference between one being more "prestigious" than the other is silly.
 
For either Rad or Rad Onc, can a good step I score (>250) and PhD guarantee (or close to that) a residency position if core clerkship grades are mediocre? By mediocre I mean almost all passes.

The answer to this is no. You will get interviews (probably). But residency directors are looking for people who will succeed as residents and bottom-of-the-barrel clerkship grades do not show that. Low grades just raise all sorts of questions--Why did this happen? Is this person reliable? Will they slack off on their service work? Are they just trying to get back to the lab? Do they really want to be a doctor?

I hated the clerkship grade rat race as much as anyone, but now that I have been a chief resident involved in resident recruitment, I see the function it serves.
 
Regarding low clinical grades and matching into rad onc see:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=816552

Typically I worry about the MD/PhD trap--i.e. only top tier places have research, so lower tier programs don't interview you, meanwhile the top tier places still expect a very strong med school application--but rad onc is so academic that most programs are welcoming of MD/PhDs.
 
Sorry to bump an old thread but is this ranking still relevant today?
 
Elitism ad nonsense, snob.... [apologize, it is not personal but about the attitude]

You are going to get good training at "all" MSTPs. They are reviewed every 5 years by a peer-group of study section program directors. They lose MSTP funding if they slip and not do good training. Awesome training can happen anywhere, but also awful mentors are seen even at NIH. The strength, critical mass and innovation of specific areas of expertise is more important than nonsense rankings. If you want to use numbers, look at NIH funding per department: Ranking Tables of National Institutes of Health (NIH) Award Data 2017
 
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Since Fencer vented a bit, I feel like it is OK to do the same. Both the schools listed in your top tier have had problems with their grant renewals in the past, and were put on the 3-year renewal cycle with a reduction in funding. That also happened to one of the schools in your second tier. (The problems have been addressed, and they are back to 5-year cycles.) Any ranking of schools before you go on interview visits is pure fantasy. Instead, look for schools that have sufficient strength in your area of research interest and apply to those programs. If a school in your 4th or 5th tier suits you better than those in your top tier, you should go to the lower tier school.
 
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I want to add my two cents and say when you're knee-deep in your program, you're not going to be thinking about how high your program ranks. As a student who interviews applicants, it elicits a huge internal eye roll when an applicant passively mentions or hints they have interviews at higher-ranked institutions (I attend what would probably be considered a lower-tier program). It affects my evaluation, because a more mature applicant will realize the rankings don't matter and what does is whether a program fits with your needs. If you really need a ranking list to help you evaluate competition during applications, it's really easy to just do that based off the name. Is Harvard a competitive program? Probably. Is University of Washington a competitive program? Probably. Have you heard much about Wayne State University? Not really.
 
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