Time Magazine: "29% of Young Doctors Are Depressed: Study"

[bararaboi]

"About 30% of young doctors have depression or symptoms of it, according to an exhaustive new review published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)."

Article: http://time.com/4140497/medical-doctors-residents-depression-mental-health/

These statistics make me somewhat scared.....

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[Holmwood]

Okay. What percent of youngsters in general are depressed though?

 

[Lucca]

It has been known for a while that medical professionals and trainees (including students) show symptoms of depression and anxiety disorders at a rate significantly greater than in the larger population. Furthermore, suicide is extremely common in the medical profession. It's a very important topic, thanks for the review and article link.


Physician suicide: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/suicide-and-the-young-physician/380253/


paper from BMJ in 1967 on Psych illness in medical prof. - so it's not just the US and it's not just a consequence of modernity as your article seems to suggest (or maybe it is, these issues are complicated and maybe these two situations do not commute): http://bjp.rcpsych.org.ezproxy.lib.utexas.edu/content/bjprcpsych/113/502/1013.full.pdf

excerpts from paper:

"We found that 32.8 per cent. of the doctors in this sample were addicted to alcohol or other drugs."

"The high incidence of suicide, especially amongst doctors under the age of 50, has been
stressed by other writers, as already noted. We believe that many of these suicides occur because doctors are reluctant either to seek or to act upon psychiatric advice, for the reasons already outlined. Unlike Blachly, Osterund and Josslin,we did not find a higher incidence of suicide amongst our addicts. Overdosage of dangerous drugs was the method almost exclusively employed."

one argument I find particularly convincing that is unique to the profession:

"Many suggestions have been made to account for the high suicide rate in the medical profession; amongst them, the availability of poisonous drugs and the doctor's toxicological knowledge, a lack of spiritual concept of life (Lucca: maybe this is more of a British thing?) or lack of dread of death, the high pressure of work and its anxiety-provoking nature, the increasing complexity of medicine, diminishing public image, and failing self-respect (Blachly, Osterund and Josslin, 1963 ; Anon., Brit. med. J., 1964; Stengel, 1964). It has also been suggested that many of the personality traits which characterize a good doctor may predispose to depression (Blachly, Osterund and Josslin, 1963). Whilst we accept that factors of this kind may be important in the aetiology of psychiatric illness in the profession, we believe that ultimate recourse to suicide could often be avoided if doctors were less reluctant to seek help from their psychiatrically trained colleagues."

 

[Lannister]

Okay. What percent of youngsters in general are depressed though?

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. Apparently about 15% of people are depressed at some point in their lives (did not get this from a scientific source btw, it's just what the first few Google results said lol). Didn't look hard enough to find numbers for young people. But given that only 15% are depressed at some point in their lives, it's probably way, way less than 30%.

 

[summergirl]

edited, can't find the source for it

 

[bararaboi]

To put things in perspective, 30% would mean close to about 1 in 3 residents. Would be very interesting to see the implications residents' mental well-being has on patient safety and outcomes. Do hospitals with a higher percentage of "depressed residents" have lower patient safety and outcome indices?

 

[Lannister]

I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than 15% to be honest, like somewhere around 30-40%.

Yeah I guess you have to consider the number of unreported cases.

 

[summergirl]

Yeah I guess you have to consider the number of unreported cases.

Lol I just edited my post because I couldn't find a source for my number. But it's nice to have support for my unreferenced statement

 

[Holmwood]

To put things in perspective, 30% would mean close to about 1 in 3 residents. Would be very interesting to see the implications residents' mental well-being has on patient safety and outcomes. Do hospitals with a higher percentage of "depressed residents" have lower patient safety and outcome indices?

I would look more at the cause of depression. Chronic stress and sleep deprivation reducing concentration leading to more mishaps is one cause (of many). Sleep deprivation has already been shown to impact performance.

But it's just the nature of the profession. You can't do much about it... unless we advance telemedicine to the point where people from different time zones can take care of patients across country. Like if a New Yorker waking up at 6 am took care of patients in California at 3 am using a robo medium or something.

 

[Slave to the Game]

That's what happens when you don't take a gap year. I'm guessing a good portion of that 30% is also East Asian/Indian kids who followed their parents' orders and applied to medical school so they can get a little pat on their head.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Do hospitals with a higher percentage of "depressed residents" have lower patient safety and outcome indices?

I don't think you can quantity this.

 

[summergirl]

That's what happens when you don't take a gap year. I'm guessing a good portion of that 30% is also East Asian/Indian kids who followed their parents' orders and applied to medical school so they can get a little pat on their head.

Lol what? No gap year = depression? East Asians/indians only want to do med for their parents? Trust me that's the minority, 90% of the Asian kids I know genuinely want to do med themselves. And let's be honest, parents of white/black/Hispanic children are probably also super proud when their kids get into med .

 

[MD2BE92]

Lol what? No gap year = depression? East Asians/indians only want to do med for their parents? Trust me that's the minority, 90% of the Asian kids I know genuinely want to do med themselves. And let's be honest, parents of white/black/Hispanic children are probably also super proud when their kids get into med .

I admire the positivity. Ironic considering what this thread is about that so much of SDN is negative and harsh.
Well done

 

[Showtek]

i think as you progress in your training you get more and more depressed

 

[Holmwood]

@Lucca, thank you for that post.
As suggested, it's probably more productive to expect depression and promptly address it (maybe with professional help) than to point fingers and try to change an entire institution.

 

[Lucca]

@Lucca, thank you for that post.
As suggested, it's probably more productive to expect depression and promptly address it (maybe with professional help) than to point fingers and try to change an entire institution.

I dont know enough or have enough experience to say whether it is systemic or something else entirely. Every medical professional should be very aware. I think the best thing any single person can do is to be aware of warning signs and symptoms and be there to provide support for their friends and colleagues when they need it the most. It's important to have empathy and be selfless as a medical professional to begin with but I think people that have suicidal ideations especially feel incredibly alone. Medicine is exposed to moral, isolationary and emotional hazards. I don't know if anything should be changed in the current system but I think everyone in every profession can work to be a more humane professional.

 

[Dr.Smexy]

That's what happens when you don't take a gap year. I'm guessing a good portion of that 30% is also East Asian/Indian kids who followed their parents' orders and applied to medical school so they can get a little pat on their head.

So much ignorance in one post I can't even...

 

[Azete]

Speaking purely from my own personal point-of-view, it's easy to become depressed when you lose balance in your life. Many young doctors and med students work crazy hours, have little time for sleep and even less for personal time.

I've had many weeks in my former career where I would work 90+ hours, and honestly it didn't bother me. When I really started to get depressed was when work would cause me to stop eating full meals, go days without seeing my wife/daughter, fall off my exercise routine, or go full weeks without 6 consecutive hours of sleep.

It's important to remember in the midst of high ambitions and an incomparably competitive environment that we're all still human beings. By all means work hard, but just remember to enjoy life a little along the way.

 

[Turkishking]

What shocking news.... I mean considering the rigor of medical school and the stress from UG, it's crazy that 29 percent of young doctors are depressed! I thought depression wasn't common throughout this whole process.

 

[cloudmurder1]

.

 

[cloudmurder1]

That's what happens when you don't take a gap year. I'm guessing a good portion of that 30% is also East Asian/Indian kids who followed their parents' orders and applied to medical school so they can get a little pat on their head.

This is racism. I thought this was not allowed on SDN. Mods, I want to bring this racist statement to your attention. Should the poster of this statement be banned or warned for making this non-inclusive statement?

 

[hailbate]

This is racism. I thought this was not allowed on SDN. Mods, I want to bring this racist statement to your attention. Should the poster of this statement be banned or warned for making this non-inclusive statement?

We should make him write a 10 page essay on how to make a ham and cheese sandwich

 

[cloudmurder1]

We should make him write a 10 page essay on how to make a ham and cheese sandwich

Oh, and we should make him get "diversity training"

I thought about giving meaner thoughts that would likely get me banned, but instead, I've decided that anytime someone makes a generalizations about Asians, which happens a lot on SDN, I'll just pretend to be an SJW.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

1) Overworked? Check.

2) No time for fun? Check.

3) Not exactly doing what you thought you'd be doing? Check.

4) Living a mediocre lifestyle, due to stagnating incomes and debt/inflation, into your 40s? Check.

5) Less respect and prestige than ever for physicians? Check.

When your reward is not nearly on par with the investment made, of course you'll end up depressed. Imagine investing 10,000$ and getting a return that wasn't even on par with inflation. Would you be upset? Of course. There is simply too much work to do and less and less reward for it. The former is enough to depress people on its own. The latter just means that the depression will be more severe and last longer.

 

[efle]

Depression and substance abuse are also greatly elevated on college campuses compared to general population. May be largely an effect from the group selected for, rather than something caused by the med education.

 

[MD2BE92]

Depression and substance abuse are also greatly elevated on college campuses compared to general population. May be largely an effect from the group selected for, rather than something caused by the med education.

There are numerous studies that report incidence higher in medicine for depression, sleep disorders...although... I do think selection bias is important to consider. It would be more informative to evaluate a longitudinal study of these same reporting individuals from MS1--> practicing physicians, as I think this way you could if not draw conclusions, at least recognize trends indicated temporally.
May just confirm what many already expect, though

 

[Member1115]

Okay. What percent of youngsters in general are depressed though?

"Suicide accounts for 26 percent of deaths among physicians aged 25 to 39, as compared to 11 percent of deaths in the same age group in the general population." - The Atlantic article

 

[cloudmurder1]

This is racism. I thought this was not allowed on SDN. Mods, I want to bring this racist statement to your attention. Should the poster of this statement be banned or warned for making this non-inclusive statement?

I'm still waiting Mods. I, myself, also reported the post. If there is silence, I'll assume that your answer is no, and that racist statements are allowed, something that is very concerning for a valuable resource like SDN.

I say all this with utmost seriousness.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.healthline.com/health/depression/college-students

We're doing better, on average, than we were in undergrad, if numbers are any indication...

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't think you can quantity this.

You could- we've got ways of comparing outcomes hospital-to-hospital. Then you'd just have to do an anonymous questionnaire that subjectively rates the depression scores of residents. Wouldn't be that hard.

 

[pageantry]

Pre-meds ought to be forced to pluck the Cyclops' eye or muck the Augean stables before they can apply to medical school. Screw shadowing.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You could- we've got ways of comparing outcomes hospital-to-hospital. Then you'd just have to do an anonymous questionnaire that subjectively rates the depression scores of residents. Wouldn't be that hard.

You're right about the questionnaires.
But how can we know if a medical error is actually attributed to a "depressed resident?" That's what I intended to say in my initial post, but apparently, I only bolded part of the sentence.

 

[Doudline]

People write this kind of nonsense all the time. It's not that 1 in 3 doctors are depressed, it's that the tests have high false positive rates.

False positives affect everyone, not just physicians; don't you find it odd that a third of your colleagues test "false positive" versus a single digit percentage for the general population?

 

[Mad Jack]

You're right about the questionnaires.
But how can we know if a medical error is actually attributed to a "depressed resident?" That's what intended to say in my initial post, I but apparently, I only bolded part of the sentence.

It wouldn't prove correlation- very likely, the same conditions that produce depressed residents produce worse patient outcomes. Low staffing, excessive call, lack of rest, etc.

 

[efle]

False positives affect everyone, not just physicians; don't you find it odd that a third of your colleagues test "false positive" versus a single digit percentage for the general population?

I think it's more like the false positive rate is increased for docs. Eg a question like "have you found that you've stopped exercising? eating well? sleeping adequately? spending time on hobbies? spending time with loved ones?" can very easily confuse depression/anhedonia with working too many hours

 

[Spectre of Ockham]

Well let's see half of the ER staff I work in smokes , another quarter overeats and the rest are stressed out no matter how much they try to chase stress away by exercise or rigorous routines. Some are phasing out and some show signs of burnout on a regular basis.

No one seeks treatment since that's a career ender as any treatment goes into databases that the management can look at. It also increases the risk of getting sued and getting the reputation of "drug user" , "psycho" or "wacko doctor".

 

[DingoPingo]

The only people who are stupid enough and don't care about their own happiness enough to become doctors are those that are destined to become depressed if they weren't already.

Or is that just me.