Too challenging and therefore diminished prob of acceptance into med school

[flatearth22]

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Hey fourcredits,

I think I was able to figure out what university you go to after a little research, based on what you've said. But to be honest, I'd never heard of your university before so I'm not sure that "it is often acknowledged to be the top university in the country". From my knowledge, that title is usually reserved for the likes of Harvard or Princeton(whose competitive applicants still are able to score >3.5).

If my guess is right, your dilemma is solved and you should transfer because your school may not be as prestigious as you think. Even if my guess is wrong, based on the given facts you should still transfer. Adcoms may take into account the difficulty of your school, but it will not make up for a low GPA. GPA is everything. This is not to say you won't get in anywhere. You can get in to medical school with a low GPA*. But why choose that risky and highly stressful path? It'll be much harder and you will likely have no options or control over where you go.

*You can take a look here to see the % of applicants accepted based on their MCAT and GPA(differs among ethnicities). https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html
People are accepted with a GPA as low as 2.0. But they likely have extraordinary MCAT, EC's, stories, personal statements, interviews, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

Is it Reed College?

 

[music2doc]

Hey fourcredits,

I think I was able to figure out what university you go to after a little research, based on what you've said. But to be honest, I'd never heard of your university before so I'm not sure that "it is often acknowledged to be the top university in the country". From my knowledge, that title is usually reserved for the likes of Harvard or Princeton(whose competitive applicants still are able to score >3.5).

If my guess is right, your dilemma is solved and you should transfer because your school may not be as prestigious as you think. Even if my guess is wrong, based on the given facts you should still transfer. Adcoms may take into account the difficulty of your school, but it will not make up for a low GPA. GPA is everything. This is not to say you won't get in anywhere. You can get in to medical school with a low GPA*. But why choose that risky and highly stressful path? It'll be much harder and you will likely have no options or control over where you go.

*You can take a look here to see the % of applicants accepted based on their MCAT and GPA(differs among ethnicities). https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html
People are accepted with a GPA as low as 2.0. But they likely have extraordinary MCAT, EC's, stories, personal statements, interviews, etc.

Good luck with your decision.

OP gives some decent clues in the following:

Without going to every individual university's web site, how can I find out which universities on the West Coast and in the Midwest offer 4 credit rather than 3 credit classes? (Next, I would need to find out the ones with lowest tuition, next I'd need to find out where I could stay over the summer, etc). HES Summer classes are too expensive for me, so I have decided to spend summers on some other not-as-expensive campus. But I need universities offering 4-credit classes.

 

[Lokhtar]

Universities like Harvey Mudd are notorious for grade deflation. I think Harvey Mudd has only had six students in its entire history achieve a 4.0 (including ALL majors). Something like 40% of it's students go on to get PhDs. However many schools like this include a deans letter along with a transcript explaining their grading policies. I think most schools would be aware of the few schools like this but really you're getting an amazing education so I'd do my best. Or if you really want - transfer out. Maybe somehow mention it in your essay about what the average gap is.

Also talk to the pre med advisor at your school to get some ideas.

 

[PressPforPi]

Love how everyone is trying to figure out the OP's uni just so they can say, "OH Muh Gawd u cant getz a 4.0 thur!?" IMHO OP, I would say your best bet is to transfer and to maintain a competitive GPA at another school.

 

[UnclePhil]

I am studying at university where unfortunately for me A = exceptional (and is never awarded) and C=average performance (which is what most people get). So, even though I have taken only 20 college credits (5 courses) so far, my GPA is quite lame and will continue to be lame, which will make me uncompetitive for medical school. I need 32 classes for a degree (128 credits).

The second problem is that the professors make classes needlessly difficult and assign way too much work. So most students take only one class a semester if they work part time and 2-3 classes if they work more hours. This translates to taking a long time to complete a degree.

The third problem is that the program is very expensive mainly because of the cost of living in the city and rental expenses, so I am going to be in severe debt even before I start medical school.

Perhaps my biggest problem is that we have to put in as many as 30-40 hours per class every week. That is way too much work. Even meaningless classes like French-I are brutal and most people fail the first time they take this class. The consequence of this is that people spend way too much time on very idiotic and meaningless classes like French-I or Expository Writing, so you don't get to focus on critical classes like Organic Chemistry or Physics. You barely get time to prepare for the MCAT. Which in turn translates to diminished chances of getting into medical school.

Could you suggest a solution to my problems? I am hesitant to transfer because the university is often acknowledged to be the top university in the country. But I see problems down the road if I continue here.

the only university that I often hear acknowledged as the best in the country is Harvard and I met a ton of Harvard grads on interviews, they all seemed to be doing fine for themselves.

 

[Lokhtar]

the only university that I often hear acknowledged as the best in the country is Harvard and I met a ton of Harvard grads on interviews, they all seemed to be doing fine for themselves.

Harvard doesn't have grade deflation.

 

[circulus vitios]

Transfer to another school? If it's a tough school on top of being expensive, then there's no reason to stay there.

 

[MrBananaGrabber]

 

[JESSFALLING]

Do people at Harvard get a 2.9 on average? Curious.

Future presidents at Yale do 😀

 

[mohad]

Is it Reed College?

Nevermind my previous statement. My ochem professor went there for undergrad and he said they didn't have traditional number grades. Maybe I misunderstood him though.

 

[Quizlet04]

Why is a C average a bad thing? A C average is exactly what an average should be: in the middle of the possible grade distribution if you take the mean of all grades. Complaining that the average in your school is a C is like complaining that the average IQ in the world is a 100 or that the average height of an American white female is 5" 4.25' (thanks wikipedia!). A class average of B shows grade inflation, nothing more.

However, a college in which most students take only one or two classes is one that wants to go out of business because of lack of credit-related income. You're full of LIEESSS. 😡

 

[raltima07]

Future presidents at Yale do 😀

I see what you did thar

 

[CopaceticOne]

The problem is the university's grading philosophy where A is awarded only for exceptional work and since C equals average, everyone gets a C. The second problem is that the professors have a chip on their shoulder and seem to think it is only by assigning 30-40 hours of work a week, they make the class worthwhile. I would recommend this university to anyone wanting a corporate job but admission officers at med schools are unlikely to know what's really going on and are likely to presume I am a bad student, when in fact I am one of the best in my classes.

Yes, it is the fault of someone else that you aren't getting the grades you want. Have fun with that attitude and enjoy how far you're going to get with it!

 

[shaggy alfresco]

I don't think you guys quite realize how tough some of the grading policeis are at places like Harvey Mudd. Only six people graduating with a 4.0 in the school's entire history (across all majors) should speak for itself.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Personally I'd just transfer to the cheapest, warmest, least workload, directional state school I could find and destroy my dimwitted 85 IQ classmates for grades while majoring in something like sociology to have even more time to study for the MCAT and rack up EC's.

This, my friends, is genius. I really wish someone had sat me down before college and told me that this was the way to get into med school.

 

[IDoIt4Love]

i don't care where you go to school. if you can't muster at least a 3.5 where you are, transfer, change your major, or pick a different profession. end of story.

 

[CopaceticOne]

I don't think you guys quite realize how tough some of the grading policeis are at places like Harvey Mudd. Only six people graduating with a 4.0 in the school's entire history (across all majors) should speak for itself.

I have no issue with that. I have an issue with people anonymously looking for a pity party, then when confronted with inquiries requesting more information they get childishly defensive and run away.

It's simple: If you don't like the situation your in, you must do something to change it.

Most people on here understand that, but apparently the OP does not.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why is a C average a bad thing? A C average is exactly what an average should be: in the middle of the possible grade distribution if you take the mean of all grades. Complaining that the average in your school is a C is like complaining that the average IQ in the world is a 100 or that the average height of an American white female is 5" 4.25' (thanks wikipedia!). A class average of B shows grade inflation, nothing more.

However, a college in which most students take only one or two classes is one that wants to go out of business because of lack of credit-related income. You're full of LIEESSS. 😡

Because a class is about learning material so that you're prepared for your future field. It is not about competing with everyone else for the 90%+ percentile, especially when you've achieved a sufficient mastery of the subject in the eyes of the instructor. Why should you be punished for having classmates who achieve along with you? It frankly does nothing, except breeds a gunner mentality and anti-social tendencies instead of group work and cohesiveness.
Not to mention going to a university like the one the OP attends is going to put you at a disadvantage in this entire game as other universities inflate their GPAs.

 

[music2doc]

Because a class is about learning material so that you're prepared for your future field. It is not about competing with everyone else for the 90%+ percentile. Why should you be punished for having classmates who achieve along with you? It frankly does nothing, except breeds a gunner mentality and anti-social tendencies instead of group work and cohesiveness.

In an ideal world, maybe, but the reality is that human beings naturally vary in ability. Can every kid who played football in HS (or middle school) play at the professional level? Can every kid that picked up a guitar expect to be successful as a rockstar? Likewise, can every kid expect to be capable of being at the top of the class?

The reality is that not everyone can be the best at something. An "A" is a statement of extraordinary achievement. To give it out to every toothless kid that comes to class most days undermines the value of the award for those who had both the ability AND put in the effort.

Sufficient mastery, per every school syllabus I've seen, is the very definition of a "C" -- anything less than that is a "D" (insufficient but partial mastery) or an "F" (unsatisfactory mastery). A "B" is usually defined as "beyond sufficient mastery" (above expectations) and an "A" as "outstanding achievement beyond mastery" (greatly exceeds expectations). If you look at the job performance reports used by many organizations, they are structured similar on a scale of 1-5 with similar definitions and defined percentiles (e.g., on one it is 1=bottom 2.5% / 2=next 12.5% / 3=middle 70% / 4=next to top 12.5% / 5=top 2.5%).

As for breeding "anti-socialites" I'd disagree. I'm not paying attention to others' grades. I succeed and I help others succeed. I don't care if they are my "competition" and based on the fact that people put up interview questions for their "competitors" to see (here on SDN) or post about the MCAT, neither do most of you. Competition may motivate but for most, it doesn't seem to breed anti-social or maladaptive competitive behaviors unless that tone is set by other factors.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

In an ideal world, maybe, but the reality is that human beings naturally vary in ability. Can every kid who played football in HS (or middle school) play at the professional level? Can every kid that picked up a guitar expect to be successful as a rockstar? Likewise, can every kid expect to be capable of being at the top of the class?

The reality is that not everyone can be the best at something. An "A" is a statement of extraordinary achievement. To give it out to every toothless kid that comes to class most days undermines the value of the award for those who had both the ability AND put in the effort.

That's outside the point, do you need to be best to get an A? Lets say that in a hypothetical situation, you have an easy class where the average is a 93%. Do you believe that people who get an 93% deserve a C? In this light the question really becomes one which questions what you philosophically believe an A is equal to: A mastery of the subject or a place marker for ranking students from best to worst.

 

[music2doc]

That's outside the point, do you need to be best to get an A? Lets say that in a hypothetical situation, you have an easy class where the average is a 93%. Do you believe that people who get an 93% deserve a C? In this light the question really becomes one which questions what you philosophically believe an A is equal to: A mastery of the subject or a place marker for ranking students from best to worst.

If the average is a 93%, the students are probably not learning anything. The instructor needs to increase the difficulty level of the course to challenge the students in it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If the average is a 93%, the students are probably not learning anything. The instructor needs to increase the difficulty level of the course to challenge the students in it.

That may be a fatally flawed observation given the limited information.

 

[pez319]

I wonder how much more difficult it would be if you go to an easy school and get a "4.0" then start med school at some prestigious university where you have to play catch up on concepts that you were never taught or challenged with in college. I'm not saying this would be the rule for everyone.

My point is that most people now don't even care about the learning process. They just need to create this image of how well they are at being a student. I bet if you compared a B student and an A student in how much they learned throughout college, there wouldn't be that much of a difference.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I wonder how much more difficult it would be if you go to an easy school and get a "4.0" then start med school at some prestigious university where you have to play catch up on concepts that you were never taught or challenged with in college. I'm not saying this would be the rule for everyone.

You probably would need to play catch up for the mcat first.

 

[music2doc]

That may be a fatally flawed observation given the limited information.

Maybe, but honestly, if a class is that easy, is it really worth taking? (Maybe...but probably not in most cases since that would seem to indicate the material could be just as easily be learned w/o the class or that more could be learned in the same period of time.)
IMO, the problem w/ American education is that far too many people are willing to settle for mediocrity. We get all scared of failing people and, as a result, we (Americans) are 14th, 25th, and 17th in reading, math, and science scores of 65 countries. That is absolutely PATHETIC (considering how wealthy we are, how successful the US has been in the past, etc.). Sure, if we were #1 in the world, I'd buy your argument but we're not even close.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

Having post-bacc'd at a second rate state school (GPA:3.9) for 10k per year after performing poorly at a top 20 US school (GPA: 2.6) for 50k per year, I strongly support this statement.

+1. The original statement is sad but often true.

 

[quiltlady]

If the GPA is usually low at your school, does anyone get into med school? Ask the pre-med office about the success of alumni/ae. Pre-med counselors are happy to show you where students are accepted so they can steer you in the same direction. If no one ever gets into med school, then you know you have chosen the wrong school for your career goals.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Maybe, but honestly, if a class is that easy, is it really worth taking? (Maybe...but probably not in most cases since that would seem to indicate the material could be just as easily be learned w/o the class or that more could be learned in the same period of time.)
IMO, the problem w/ American education is that far too many people are willing to settle for mediocrity. We get all scared of failing people and, as a result, we (Americans) are 14th, 25th, and 17th in reading, math, and science scores of 65 countries. That is absolutely PATHETIC (considering how wealthy we are, how successful the US has been in the past, etc.). Sure, if we were #1 in the world, I'd buy your argument but we're not even close.

Well there's actually a thread in Allopathic or Osteopathic about how medical school is really becoming a place primarily of self learning that you can master it without even going to class and as such not really have a reason for paying the tuition. Not truly what you're talking about, but still kinda might be an interesting topic to read about.
Anyways again, this is potentially a fatal flaw observation, what if the classmates all helped each other and worked very hard and thus raised the bar for the entire class? It's not really that the class is hard but rather that there could be other factors.
Now, on our failing school system. There can be many things attributed to it beyond the just-world complex/ lazy people settling for mediocrity. It's the fact that our educational system in itself needs to be revamped and that politicians need to stop dealing with how our system works and let cognitive-neuroscientists and psychologists do it instead. I personally will not go any further than this as I will likely derail the thread with a badly worded and overly emotional 10 page thesis/rant on what we could do to change crap for the better.

 

[aSagacious]

I personally will not go any further than this as I will likely derail the thread with a badly worded and overly emotional 10 page thesis/rant on what we could do to change crap for the better.

It's ok, this thread never really stood a chance anyway.

 

[CopaceticOne]

It's ok, this thread never really stood a chance anyway.

👍

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's ok, this thread never really stood a chance anyway.

Yah, it really didn't, though the OP admittedly didn't tell us hardly enough for anyone to keep the thread on topic. But anyways, I can't help but wonder if going to Harvey Mudd or other grade deflating universities have major effects on the social atmosphere or overall happiness of the students. I mean I can't imagine what it would feel like seeing your friends at Podunk getting 4.0's while you struggle to keep a 2.5.

 

[0919mmk]

<flashes D-card @ this thread> 😀

 

[Person0715]

Small liberal arts schools like Harvey are often the schools that are known for grade deflation/harsher grading policies relative to their larger counterparts.

Whether or not you come from a school that does practice grade deflation does not change the fact that your GPA still has to be top notch to have a shot at medical school.

 

[UnclePhil]

Future presidents at Yale do 😀

mediocre grades and then running the country? tfm

 

[fourcredits]

a) I've never heard of a schools where students take 1 class a semester. If that's true, then I don't even know what to tell you

The average is two classes a semester. No one I know takes more than 2 classes a semester. Absolutely no one that I know. I suspect this is true for many schools. See this thread for example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10604393&postcount=58

 

[Suncrusher]

<flashes D-card @ this thread> 😀

o god. I hated that thread.

 

[45408]

Please don't make infelicitous assumptions like
- I am at McGill or in Canada or this is not an American school
- I have horrible study skills
- I am not smart enough.

The problem is the university's grading philosophy where A is awarded only for exceptional work and since C equals average, everyone gets a C. The second problem is that the professors have a chip on their shoulder and seem to think it is only by assigning 30-40 hours of work a week, they make the class worthwhile. I would recommend this university to anyone wanting a corporate job but admission officers at med schools are unlikely to know what's really going on and are likely to presume I am a bad student, when in fact I am one of the best in my classes.

Then apparently everyone at your school is average, and the professors and students don't bother with normal distributions like the rest of us. I went to "Big Easy State U" and the average grades on most of my chemistry exams for gen chem were in the 50% range, which ended up being a C or so.

I also find it unlikely that a professor would be assigning 30-40 hours of work per week, unless it's a 10 credit class.

 

[NightGod]

The average is two classes a semester. No one I know takes more than 2 classes a semester. Absolutely no one that I know. I suspect this is true for many schools. See this thread for example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10604393&postcount=58

That is a listing of what order to take the pre-reqs in. I've never heard of a school that the average is to only take two classes a semester. Hell, I'm working full time and take 4 classes a semester.

 

[fudGez14]

even if the OP goes to harvey mudd, which i still feel is impossible that the average schedule has 2 classes a semester and where nearly 15% of the class has a 3.7 GPA (http://www.hmc.edu/about/administrativeoffices/registrar1/registrarstats1/gpadistinction.html), there are even harder schools out there (princeton, MIT, caltech).

 

[fourcredits]

That is a listing of what order to take the pre-reqs in. I've never heard of a school that the average is to only take two classes a semester. Hell, I'm working full time and take 4 classes a semester.

With all due respect, you are incorrect. If you go on the Harvard Extension website, those are all the courses you take for your diploma in pre-med studies. They take ONLY two classes a semester because it is THAT hard!

 

[Hoya2009]

With all due respect, you are incorrect. If you go on the Harvard Extension website, those are all the courses you take for your diploma in pre-med studies. They take ONLY two classes a semester because it is THAT hard!

Bueller? Bueller? BUELLER??!!

That's not a college, that's the Harvard extension Web site for people to take pre-req classes after having graduated, often while working at the same time.
It is not even close to a BA program or undergrad workload. Comparing that to an undergraduate program is foolish.

And that other site showed a median GPA at HM around 3.2/3.3 which is a B/B+ in my book, and pretty par for the course.

 

[235788]

what is this magical hellhole? look seriously though, you may well be at a very difficult school, but you're unlikely to get tons of sympathy on this site. wherever it is there are people here who go there probably and have a 4.9000 GPA. if you aren't going to transfer, the short answer is that you need to figure out how to work these classes better than you currently are. surely there's some genius in these classes you can model your study behavior after.

as for the money that stinks but i dunno. i wasn't willing to do the big ugrad debt so i haven't (yet. hellooooo med school!) experienced the night sweats of giant unpaid piles of money. 🙁

haha magical hellhole 👍👍👍 Well looks like you chose the incorrect institution. Don't plan on get in anywhere with under a 2.7.

 

[V5RED]

With all due respect, you are incorrect. If you go on the Harvard Extension website, those are all the courses you take for your diploma in pre-med studies. They take ONLY two classes a semester because it is THAT hard!

They take only those courses because it is a "diploma in premedical studies". They already have a bachelors and are just taking the prerequisites to allow them to take the MCAT and apply to medical school. It is not a degree.

This has nothing to do with difficulty.

 

[GetThePointe77]

This is not to offend anyone at all, but this made me really curious because I have always heard that the hardest part about (insert harvard yale princeton ect) is getting in because they dont want students to fail, because everyone IS extremely smart. Now obviously I have friends who go to Ivies and clearly do a LOT of work to EARN their grades, but they do seem to get a lot of support from their faculty, advisors, ect. Even at State schools there are curves and quotas, where the average IS a C. My biochem, orgo, bio, physics, and chem classes all had C averages, even after a quarter to a half of the class had dropped. That said, it is still do-able to get a decent GPA at these schools. So if your school is known for huge grade de-flation either a) transfer or b) hope that adcoms know enough about your school that your hard work will shine through.

 

[fourcredits]

This is not to offend anyone at all, but this made me really curious because I have always heard that the hardest part about (insert harvard yale princeton ect) is getting in because they dont want students to fail, because everyone IS extremely smart. Now obviously I have friends who go to Ivies and clearly do a LOT of work to EARN their grades, but they do seem to get a lot of support from their faculty, advisors, ect. Even at State schools there are curves and quotas, where the average IS a C. My biochem, orgo, bio, physics, and chem classes all had C averages, even after a quarter to a half of the class had dropped. That said, it is still do-able to get a decent GPA at these schools. So if your school is known for huge grade de-flation either a) transfer or b) hope that adcoms know enough about your school that your hard work will shine through.

I don't know ANYONE in my school who has gotten either an A or an A-. I am sure there are people who get A's but they must be graduate students or medical students who take the class for credit.

That aside, the part about letting adcoms know is interesting. However, what exactly is an "adcom?" Who/what constitutes an adcom? I am interested in the decision making process within a medical school. How are admit/reject decisions made? Who is involved in making those decisions? How involved are they? Are there different levels of decision making for acceptance and rejection? Are rejection decisions made by lower-level secretaries and accept decisions made by higher-level administrators? Does anyone have a veto power? I wonder if these issues have been explored in some published journal article.

 

[blizzah]

I don't know ANYONE in my school who has gotten either an A or an A-. I am sure there are people who get A's but they must be graduate students or medical students who take the class for credit.

That aside, the part about letting adcoms know is interesting. However, what exactly is an "adcom?" Who/what constitutes an adcom? I am interested in the decision making process within a medical school. How are admit/reject decisions made? Who is involved in making those decisions? How involved are they? Are there different levels of decision making for acceptance and rejection? Are rejection decisions made by lower-level secretaries and accept decisions made by higher-level administrators? Does anyone have a veto power? I wonder if these issues have been explored in some published journal article.

Its different at every school.

 

[fourcredits]

There are ivies that are known for deflation and those that are known for deflation.

Personally, I regret going to an ivy known for being really hard. Many of my HS friends who didn't get into one (they go to my state school) party constantly and maintain higher gpas without trying nearly as hard. It is like getting punished for getting significantly higher SAT scores and doing better in my HS classes.

I feel the same way as you do. And I am actually thinking of transferring to a state school from an Ivy. The reason being, I don't want an Ivy after my name - I just want to get into medical school. Statistically, my chances of getting into medical school are MUCH greater from a state school than from my elite school.

Most pre-med students at my school just get a B average at best. I have heard that Organic Chemistry is difficult but at my school, the Physics class is the problem. It is pretty difficult to get anything over a C in Physics. And it's kinda hard to get into medical schools with C's.

I wish medical schools looked only at MCAT scores and not at grades. Because all of us seem to get pretty good MCAT scores despite our C's, C minuses and B's.

 

[bkprodigy]

fourcredit,

I believe most schools (some for sure) look at difficulty of the courses taken in addition to the grade point average.

If you school is exceptionally difficult and no one really has 3.5+ as you claim, then it'll be your job to let the adcoms of the medical school know this.

This can be usually done by the committee letter if your school has one.
Or talk to your professors who have taught at your school and some other school and ask them to include the difficulty level in their LORs..

Otherwise, quit, GTFO, and transfer. Regardless of the difficulty level 4.0 at community college still looks better than 3.0 at a 4-year institution.

 

[somepremedkid]

I wish medical schools looked only at MCAT scores and not at grades. Because all of us seem to get pretty good MCAT scores despite our C's, C minuses and B's.

If that was the case, more people would slack off in college classes and focus solely on acing the MCAT. Grades help showcase a student's work ethic. In my opinion, I think both the GPA and MCAT are necessary.

If you manage to pull a decent GPA (at least a 3.1), a high MCAT could perhaps compensate for a lower GPA.

 

[NightGod]

With all due respect, you are incorrect. If you go on the Harvard Extension website, those are all the courses you take for your diploma in pre-med studies. They take ONLY two classes a semester because it is THAT hard!

With all due respect, you're talking about a post-bacc diploma program. For people who already have a four year degree and then realized they want to become doctors and just need to finish up the pre-reqs.