Top 10 or bust?

www.westernu.edu/pharmacy/
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Jetninjin

Jetninjin

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Just wanted to see if anyone else is alarmed enough at:

1) glut of new schools
2) Walgreens' POWER
3) no strong pharmacy lobbying organization to protect us
etc...

to only apply to top 10 schools. I don't know what the future holds but I guess I am concerned enough about all of the above to only apply to schools that would better my chances for good pay and employment after graduation. I don't want to gamble with $125000 in tuition ... anyone else?
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All who enter the pharmacy profession abandon all hope: Coming from a lost soul such as myself, I can only beg you to save yourself or get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life at salaries of $50-60 k; with that salary and your $125 k debt, you will really burn... :scared:
 
DoctorRx1986 said:
All who enter the pharmacy profession abandon all hope: Coming from a lost soul such as myself, I can only beg you to save yourself or get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life at salaries of $50-60 k; with that salary and your $125 k debt, you will really burn... :scared:
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:laugh:
 
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There is no need to be sarcastic. Anyone who deliberately takes on $125000 in debt had better have a plan and go into the endeavor with their eyes wide open. A PharmD and a pulse is no longer a guarantee of a good job ... just like a law degree from Harvard > lots of other places and a biz degree from Wharton's > lots of other places, a PharmD degree from a top 10 school might > lots of other PharmDs when the going gets a little rougher.
 
I don't think Pharmacy is comparable to Law in this example because you have to consider the type of clientele the pharmacist has vs. the clientele the lawyer has.

Another problem with "top 10" for pharmacy is, simply put, the ranking system and the lack of an established "reputation" for every school. I mean, yeah, inside of pharmacy everyone knows UCSF and USC, Purdue and a couple others. But we have no Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, or Boston College.

Thus, what really MAKES a "top 10" pharmacy school? If you look at US News Review, who is generally accepted as the ranking people, the criteria for ranking in pharmacy is much different than law. I think that's a nebulous issue and one up for contention. Until companies, almost ALL companies (like law), wholly agree that UCSF is > California Northstate, for example, there will never be a de facto problem.

That said, you should ALWAYS strive to get into the best school you can. If you're on the cusp of GPA, a mediocre PCAT and not much EC and can't get into a "top 10" pharmacy school, should you even bother? For now, no. But 10 years down the road? Maybe. I still think the type of client the pharmacist serves being extremely different than the one the lawyer serves is a big enough difference to keep the ol' "A pharm D is a pharm D" expression alive and well for some time yet.
 
DoctorRx1986 said:
All who enter the pharmacy profession abandon all hope: Coming from a lost soul such as myself, I can only beg you to save yourself or get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life at salaries of $50-60 k; with that salary and your $125 k debt, you will really burn... :scared:
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Lol. Not to mention that being in the top 10 won't save you in a market saturation or hiring freeze. Wish I had some more up-to-date information when I was applying last year :rolleyes:
 
carmend said:
Lol. Not to mention that being in the top 10 won't save you in a market saturation or hiring freeze. Wish I had some more up-to-date information when I was applying last year :rolleyes:
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Perhaps not, but their endowments tend to be huge, which indicates a strong alum network. They also often have high-level relationships at employers and agencies, which means your resume can get to the top of the pile and land you unadvertised jobs. So in general, their network is better (I speak of top programs in general).
 
Jetninjin said:
Perhaps not, but their endowments tend to be huge, which indicates a strong alum network. They also often have high-level relationships at employers and agencies, which means your resume can get to the top of the pile and land you unadvertised jobs. So in general, their network is better (I speak of top programs in general).
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This is a stupid strategy. Apply to the schools that are best for you and as long as it is an established program you will be fine. I would be catious of going to one of the schools that has popped up in the last few yrs. Regardless of where you go, there are good and bad students at all these schools. I would take a top student from a lesser known school over a low student from a better known school any day.
 
DoctorRx1986 said:
All who enter the pharmacy profession abandon all hope: Coming from a lost soul such as myself, I can only beg you to save yourself or get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life at salaries of $50-60 k; with that salary and your $125 k debt, you will really burn... :scared:
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I agree. Times are bad in pharmacy, and they're only going to get worse. If you have cold feet about the profession, back out while you're still able to and explore other avenues.
 
It's tough to compare with law....here's why:

1) Law is getting squeezed on both ends: supply and demand. WAY over supply (we've known this for a while) while companies/corporations are rethinking billable hours. If you've hung around attorneys, questioning "billable hours" is like going to the Vatican and questioning the pope.

2) You can make the argument that efficiency growth (ie wags' power) is squeezing demand for pharmacists while oversupply is going to happen, fair enough...but it's not quite the paradigm change that law is going into.

3) WILD CARD -- Health care reform. This can either shoot up the demand for pharmacy related services or strip down already depressed reimbursement rates. With the current administration's obsession with cutting costs, everything is on the table. What can happen is something like how Sarbanes-Oxley boosted the demand for corporate accounting, or heck even Part D which fattened big pharma up.

No such potential "boost" for attorneys is in the pipeline right now...if anything tort reform will further put a strike against legal service demand. That's why the future for attorney services is way bleaker than healthcare.

Like I stated before, I think we'll see salaries plateau over the next 5-7 years due to fluctuations and the market not fully absorbing pharmacists coming out in the near term. If anything, inflation in the 2010's means that, in real terms, our salaries will fall 3-7% (I used to say 5-10%, I'm still back and fort about it).


For the OP:
I still stand by the fact that if you're still early in your undergrad, aim for the top 25 or bust. If you're already at the end of your undergrad career and have the stats to get into a school this cycle, just jump in now. Just know that the PharmD is no longer a "sure thing." You're gonna have to work your ass off if you want the choice jobs, locations, and hours.
 
5minutes said:
I'll go to the school that saves me money the most.
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That's not a bad idea. Instead of going for top 10 schools, go for the cheapest schools that are already fully accredited. That way your debt will be significantly lower.
 
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charfdorn said:
That's not a bad idea. Instead of going for top 10 schools, go for the cheapest schools that are already fully accredited. That way your debt will be significantly lower.
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That's what I'm doing. I probably won't owe more than 60k when i graduate.
 
Not to mention, but the cheapest pharmacy school is probably your big-name and well known state school.
 
The really funny part about this whole conversation is that most likely if you asked the people that do the actual hiring for most places to name 5 pharmacy schools they couldn't do it.

Human resource personnel ... I'm sure they keep a list of the top ten rated pharmacy schools in a handy dandy list right between the spongebob stress reliever squeeze toy and their dog/kid pictures.
 
triumphbr said:
Human resource personnel ... I'm sure they keep a list of the top ten rated pharmacy schools in a handy dandy list right between the spongebob stress reliever squeeze toy and their dog/kid pictures.
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Of course, it's not always so cut and dry. Ask 10 random people on the street in Florida if they've heard of "St. John Fisher" as a school and they'd look at you cross eyed... ask 10 random people if they've heard of UCLA, and chances are they'll know what you're talking about.

UCLA doesn't even have a pharm school...but if it opened one, instant name brand recognition. It's like how UCSD just recently opened their school and now it's considered a force to be reckoned with.

So those dumb HR folks with the spongebob stress toy and dog pictures, if thumbing through resumes, saw "UCLA" or "CNCP"....they'll linger a little longer on the one from UCLA.


and whoever pointed this out before...YES i'm turning this thread into a california discussion thread, muahahhaa
 
Passion4Sci said:
Hip-hip HOORAY for California derailment. Except you're a California traitor, Confetti...
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Whats with all the California hoopla? You know with having the 4th largest economy in the world, you guys sure know how to suck when it comes to balancing your state budget. OOoo, burn.. Wait, damn you California thread hijackers!
 
confettiflyer said:
Of course, it's not always so cut and dry. Ask 10 random people on the street in Florida if they've heard of "St. John Fisher" as a school and they'd look at you cross eyed... ask 10 random people if they've heard of UCLA, and chances are they'll know what you're talking about.

UCLA doesn't even have a pharm school...but if it opened one, instant name brand recognition. It's like how UCSD just recently opened their school and now it's considered a force to be reckoned with.

So those dumb HR folks with the spongebob stress toy and dog pictures, if thumbing through resumes, saw "UCLA" or "CNCP"....they'll linger a little longer on the one from UCLA.


and whoever pointed this out before...YES i'm turning this thread into a california discussion thread, muahahhaa
Click to expand...

But I think that brings the whole discussion back to the idea of only being capable of analyzation from a regional standpoint. Ask ten people from Florida about St. John Fisher, they'll look at you cross-eyed. Ask anyone from Western New York about St. John Fisher, they'll know the school (which, as a college, has been around as long as many state universities), as well as about how the school does have a long standing good reputation as a whole. You'd get a similar result asking a New Yorker about Campbell University, and they've had a pharmacy program for a good long while now. Obviously the exception to this rule would be standalones (your LECOMs and CNCPs and what have you), but I think that most people (outside of pharmacy) from any given area assume that if a university opens a pharmacy school, it will be on par with the rest of their academic programs. As a St. John Fisher graduate, I'll have better luck finding a job around the Western New York area because people around this area have heard about the school. If I go to other regions, I won't be so lucky because people won't be familiar with the school or its track record. And that's why pharmacy is getting tougher and everyone who isn't all in should get out and find another avenue for their future.
 
Thanks all for the responses, this is a good discussion, it is nice to get so many points of view.

@ confetti - I like the avatar! I am applying this year fwiw

@ irishhammer - I guess it depends on what your definition of "all in" is - it's something I want to do, but I consider any form of education to be an investment of time and $ for which projected ROI is an important component
 
ret09 said:
Whats with all the California hoopla? You know with having the 4th largest economy in the world, you guys sure know how to suck when it comes to balancing your state budget. OOoo, burn.. Wait, damn you California thread hijackers!
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Heck yeah...as goes california, so goes the rest of the nation. I tried paying my SDN dues with an IOU but apparently those are no good here.

But yeah, my reasons for liking the state are wholly unaffected by inept state government or hippies in Berkeley that sit in trees and throw feces.

IrishHammer said:
...
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I agree it's highly regional, which is why I'm at a disadvantage in coming directly back to California for direct employment. I might do a quick "two step" and either push for a residency or other hospital job that DOES recognize my school's name. But luckily, the "name brand" issues don't carry over to hospital employment (except possibly the big ones: SF General, Cedars-Sinai, etc...), and job responsibility/experience will carry more than the name.

Passion4Sci said:
. Except you're a California traitor, Confetti...
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Shuttup...I consider myself in the diaspora and spreading the Good Word about California here.

Conversations typically go like this:

Person: "Your state is broke! Can't even balance the budget!"
Me: "Well at least my streets don't smell like urine and my state's weather resembles that of a Greek island."
Person: "..."

The conversation usually ends there. I win. :smuggrin:
 
Oh so let's continue this west coast hijack that's underway

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9-_4riRNbI&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Still proud to call him my Governor, I even have his signature on my diploma! This is pharm related because UCSF is ranked #1 and I believe his signature will be on their diplomas as well. Yesssss
 
confettiflyer said:
Conversations typically go like this:

Person: "Your state is broke! Can't even balance the budget!"
Me: "Well at least my streets don't smell like urine and my state's weather resembles that of a Greek island."
Person: "..."

The conversation usually ends there. I win. :smuggrin:
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You got me there. Florida is a feces and urine infested hell-hole.
 
confettiflyer said:
Conversations typically go like this:

Person: "Your state is broke! Can't even balance the budget!"
Me: "Well at least my streets don't smell like urine and my state's weather resembles that of a Greek island."
Person: "..."

The conversation usually ends there. I win. :smuggrin:
Click to expand...

Your streets don't smell like urine? Go to Stockton sometime.

And yes, you may have the weather of a Greek island, but...you know what, screw it, I'm going to take the high road and NOT make a San Fran reference.

...at least my state doesn't have a place called Vaseline Valley. :smuggrin:
 
IrishHammer said:
Your streets don't smell like urine? Go to Stockton sometime.

And yes, you may have the weather of a Greek island, but...you know what, screw it, I'm going to take the high road and NOT make a San Fran reference.

...at least my state doesn't have a place called Vaseline Valley. :smuggrin:
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okay when i say california i'm usually referring to orange county.

stockton is ghetto, i'll give you that.

i think i'm getting the urine thing here cuz i'm walking everywhere, having a car is prohibitively expensive as a regular student. can't wait til i'm a pharmacist, even with a "wage cut" that may or may not happen, i'll have enough money that i won't have to fret about bringing a car into a major city.

and what the hell is vaseline valley, i'm thinking that means the castro, but i could be wrong.
 
confettiflyer said:
okay when i say california i'm usually referring to orange county.

stockton is ghetto, i'll give you that.

i think i'm getting the urine thing here cuz i'm walking everywhere, having a car is prohibitively expensive as a regular student. can't wait til i'm a pharmacist, even with a "wage cut" that may or may not happen, i'll have enough money that i won't have to fret about bringing a car into a major city.

and what the hell is vaseline valley, i'm thinking that means the castro, but i could be wrong.
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You should be careful with that...there's a lot to California outside of OC. California does have the Sharks, though...I'll give them that. They do have the San Jose Sharks. My font is switching to teal come October.

Stockton is ghetto...done stating the obvious, moving on.

Used cars are the way to go, my car is a 1992 Cadillac, my dad bought it back in 2004 for $3,500, it's only got 146,000 on it, and it's still running fine. Needs minor maintenance now and then, but seldom ever anything outside the scope of normal car expenses.

Vaseline Valley (Might be Vaseline Alley...not sure) is a community in Los Angeles. I'll give you one guess what most of its inhabitants have in common...
 
IrishHammer said:
You should be careful with that...there's a lot to California outside of OC. California does have the Sharks, though...I'll give them that. They do have the San Jose Sharks. My font is switching to teal come October.

Stockton is ghetto...done stating the obvious, moving on.

Used cars are the way to go, my car is a 1992 Cadillac, my dad bought it back in 2004 for $3,500, it's only got 146,000 on it, and it's still running fine. Needs minor maintenance now and then, but seldom ever anything outside the scope of normal car expenses.

Vaseline Valley (Might be Vaseline Alley...not sure) is a community in Los Angeles. I'll give you one guess what most of its inhabitants have in common...
Click to expand...

I'm gonna get a lot of **** for saying this, but damn I could never get a used car, they just tend to smell funny. I'm not into funk. But anyway, I was referring to parking costs in Philadelphia...I'm in the nice part of center city (nice, relative to the ghetto) where it's $200/mo to park it. I'd feel funny spending $200/mo to park a $3500 car, so I have to begrudgingly take the bus when I don't walk.

Plus, I don't feel like shipping my nice car out from CA to subject it to the abuse of this craptastic city (stolen airbags, fender benders, scratches, random crap thrown at it -- all happened to two of my friends who brought cars). My friend drives it once a week to keep the juices flowing, it'll be ready for me when I get back.

Vaseline valley/alley....oh, we refer to it as WeHo (west hollywood). I've never heard vaseline alley.

and yes i know about the rest of the state, i lived in the bay area, west LA, orange county, and spent entirely too much time getting my drank on in san diego.
 
derailed_thread.jpg
.
 
Hey this is still on track...#1 school based on US News ranking is still University of California @ San Francisco.
 
IrishHammer said:
So? According to US News, Nancy Pelosi is charming and charismatic.
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lol, can't argue with that one...she's a cold hearted wench, good thing she's in DC and just sends money back home :thumbup: Tired of my federal tax dollars subsidizing every other state, if we got to keep it, we wouldn't be in this budget mess.
 
confettiflyer said:
lol, can't argue with that one...she's a cold hearted wench, good thing she's in DC and just sends money back home :thumbup: Tired of my federal tax dollars subsidizing every other state, if we got to keep it, we wouldn't be in this budget mess.
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She does so much shady ****, and it gets covered up because she trumpets her career to the public eye under the guise of "Hey, look! It's a woman succeeding! Anyone who would try to ruin me must not want women to succeed!" Sarah Palin, although she certainly does try her best, has nothing on Pelosi in terms of being inept and crooked.

She sends money back to CA? Well, yeah, I suppose so...I guess her bank probably is in CA.
 
IrishHammer said:
She does so much shady ****, and it gets covered up because she trumpets her career to the public eye under the guise of "Hey, look! It's a woman succeeding! Anyone who would try to ruin me must not want women to succeed!" Sarah Palin, although she certainly does try her best, has nothing on Pelosi in terms of being inept and crooked.

She sends money back to CA? Well, yeah, I suppose so...I guess her bank probably is in CA.
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Eh, everyone does shady ****...it's just the degree of PR skill involved will determine whether it's a big deal or not.

Palin...oh boy, probably not crooked, but totally inept as a politician. I'm sure she'd make a great mayor or PTA president, but clearly she doesn't know the political ropes.
 
Passion4Sci said:
Since we're OT now...

At least Palin has a really nice ass.
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I'd plow that until next March. Or a three-way including Bristol. She's 18 now, right? Yeah, a three way with Sarah and Bristol.
 
calisoca said:
On the topic of Palin and her dilated daughter: I found Spike TV's 10 sexiest female politicians. The list starts off rather nasty, but improves drastically in the top 3.

http://www.spike.com/blog/top-10-sexiest/68661
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Hillary Clinton is sexy? Spike TV was about to lose all the credibility until I noticed the disclaimer. All the writers who helped had ingested at least half a litre or Bacardi 151 prior to compiling the list.

Glad they threw that in there. Now I don't have to boycott Spike TV. Which is good, because I'd hate not being able to watch Manswers. "Can breast implants deflect a bullet? You need to know." I DO need to know!
 
Passion4Sci said:
I am so moving to Ukraine.

Who's with me!
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So you're going to leave California and its scores of hot, tawdry women just because of some Ukranian trick who holds office?

Tell you what, you go ahead and I'll catch up to you.
 
Passion4Sci said:
You mean all Ukrainian women don't look like that!?
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Yes. All Ukrainian women look like that. And the shortage of pharmacists is expected to become even greater in the coming decades, with salaries reaching as high as 160K starting.

It's true. It's true.
 
IrishHammer said:
Yes. All Ukrainian women look like that. And the shortage of pharmacists is expected to become even greater in the coming decades, with salaries reaching as high as 160K starting.

It's true. It's true.
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Well I heard 400k, get your red facts straight.
 
It's true, my mom told me. She also told me that girls don't like me because I'm too handsome for their eyes to understand.
 
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