Top 5-10 Do Schools?

[MaximusD]

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I think that the problem is in the void of having no overarching group which ranks DO schools specifically amongst each other, you have each schools spreading their admissions propaganda. That is the extent to which 90 percent of us have had exposure to these medical schools. Everyone has been told by people who control their fate that X school is the best. They pay thousands of dollars to secure their spot and at least rest assured that their school's the best in some shape or form.

You wouldn't see this with MD schools. An Albany Medical College student is never going to think that they are superior to someone at Johns Hopkins...

That's bc the ranking system has been ingrained in that community. This is not the case in the osteopathic medical community.

USNews adds DO schools in for spice, but does a piss-poor job of actually comparing them amongst each other. WVSOM ranks 49th in primary care... what does that f-ing mean!? It means they graduate more primary care docs and that they give you early clinical experience.

PCOM isn't ranked by USNews.. does that mean that WVSOM is better? I don't think that's the case at all.

Although a case can be made that the current lack of ranking is positive bc it discourages competition, I think that it does a disservice to premed students wanting to gain a thorough comparative analysis.

Some things that we need a comparative analysis of:

1) Professor Quality
2) COMLEX/USMLE pass rate (yes, BOTH bc a huge percentage of DOs go into allo residencies..)
3) Curriculum
4) Clinical Rotation sites
5) Matchlist
5) % Graduates entering primary care
6) % Graduates specializing
7) Admissions data (MCAT, GPA)
8) Student life
9) Facilities
10) [insert something i missed here]

These things need to be QUANTIFIED in some manner so that an OBJECTIVE measure is possible. Until this happens, there is absolutely no way to give a resolute ranking system.

 

[CatsandCradles]

How many Jefferson students have you rotated with? How many lectures have you given at Jefferson? How many Jefferson residents have you worked with?

I think I upset you. If I have then I apologize.

Do keep in mind that I said that "These 5 schools put a lot of allopathic schools to shame"


Nevertheless, I'd like to see why you think PCOM is better than Jefferson.

 

[JonnyG]

PCOM isn't ranked by USNews.. does that mean that WVSOM is better? I don't think that's the case at all.

PCOM doesn't provide the information to USNews...........................thats a catch to being ranked.

With the exception of maybe 10 schools in the country, it really doesn't matter where you go. Making connections will help you the most.

As for Jefferson vs PCOM. Jeffersons locations better (i like center city) and they have a painting worth 65 million dollars hanging in their school. None of which means they train better docs.

 

[michaels]

I know that you don't have to go into primary care as DO student, but here is an "official" ranking that can be found that is not based solely on student's preferences.

According to the US News and World Report, rankings for the best medical schools leading to primary care:
1. University of Washington

2. University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill

3. Oregon Health and Science University

4. Mich. State U. Coll. of Osteopathic Medicine

4. University of Massachusetts–Worcester

6. Duke University (NC)

6. East Carolina University (Brody) (NC)

6. University of Colorado–Denver and Health Sciences Center

6. University of Wisconsin–Madison

10. University of California–San Francisco

11. Baylor College of Medicine (TX)

11. University of Iowa (Carver)

11. University of Nebraska College of Medicine

14. Michigan State University

14. University of Vermont

16. Brown University (RI)

16. University of Minnesota Medical School

16. University of Missouri–Columbia

16. University of Pennsylvania

20. U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center–Dallas

21. Case Western Reserve University (OH)

21. Dartmouth Medical School (NH)

21. University of California–Davis

21. University of Rochester (NY)

25. Harvard University (MA)

25. University of New Mexico

25. Wake Forest University (NC)

28. University of Alabama–Birmingham

28. University of Michigan–Ann Arbor

28. U. of N. Texas Health Sci. Center (Texas Col. of Osteopathic Medicine)

31. University of Virginia

31. Yeshiva University (Einstein) (NY)

33. Indiana University–Indianapolis

33. Ohio State University

33. University of California–San Diego

33. University of Maryland

33. University of Pittsburgh

38. University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences

38. University of California–Los Angeles (Geffen)

38. University of Connecticut

41. East Tennessee State Univ. (Quillen)

41. Emory University (GA)

41. Johns Hopkins University (MD)

41. Medical College of Wisconsin

45. Medical College of Georgia

45. Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL)

45. Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences

45. University of Utah

49. Cornell University (Weill) (NY)

49. University of Chicago (Pritzker)

49. West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine

 

[Dr JPH]

I know that you don't have to go into primary care as DO student, but here is an "official" ranking that can be found that is not based solely on student's preferences.

According to the US News and World Report, rankings for the best medical schools leading to primary care:

So if you want to be a family doc, go to MSUCOM. Thats all those rankings tell me...and thats all those rankings are meant to tell.

 

[Dr JPH]

I think I upset you. If I have then I apologize.

Do keep in mind that I said that "These 5 schools put a lot of allopathic schools to shame"


Nevertheless, I'd like to see why you think PCOM is better than Jefferson.

I never said PCOM was better...those werent my words.

But I dont know how you can tell me that its NOT...from what I know you arent even a medical student, yet you seem to know so much.

 

[michaels]

So if you want to be a family doc, go to MSUCOM. Thats all those rankings tell me...and thats all those rankings are meant to tell.

Exactly. That's why I wrote:

I know that you don't have to go into primary care as DO student, but here is an "official" ranking that can be found that is not based solely on student's preferences.

Simply meant to provide an actual rating - as opposed to opinions based on what people think about the schools that accepted or rejected them.

I realize it's only for primary care and there are tons of other possiblities.

 

[Dr JPH]

When youre talking about the "best" schools or "strongest" schools, rankings for primary care dont mean a whole lot. Neither do rankings for research.

Show me rankings for students entering NON primary care specialties.
Show me rankings for students getting their top 3 residency choices.


If you look at the schools who send students into competitive, non primary care specialties: (%)

PCOM 67%
Hopkins 67%
UPENN 67%
Yale 70%
Washington (St Louis) 70%

Look at the DO schools who send most of their grads into specialty fields and PCOM is at the top along with NYCOM and UMNJSOM.

The DO schools with the most into primary care?
WVSOM, MSUCOM, Pikeville, LECOM, TCOM, NOVA, UNECOM, Touro

 

[Ifellinapothole]

i'm at nycom (2nd year) and have to say at this point in the game: medical school like undergrad is a racket. Sure, you learn some stuff, but the banks and the government have you by the balls w/ these outrageous loans. I would go to UMDNJ or any other school that can offer you in state tuition.

You will learn the same crap everywhere, cut a cadaver w/ the same damn muscles and organs. The Krebs cycle is oxaloacetate to citrate to isocitrate to..... at any of these schools so

JUST GO WHERE IT IS CHEAPEST!!!!!!

 

[koshka]

When youre talking about the "best" schools or "strongest" schools, rankings for primary care dont mean a whole lot. Neither do rankings for research.

Show me rankings for students entering NON primary care specialties.
Show me rankings for students getting their top 3 residency choices.


If you look at the schools who send students into competitive, non primary care specialties: (%)

PCOM 67%
Hopkins 67%
UPENN 67%
Yale 70%
Washington (St Louis) 70%

Look at the DO schools who send most of their grads into specialty fields and PCOM is at the top along with NYCOM and UMNJSOM.

The DO schools with the most into primary care?
WVSOM, MSUCOM, Pikeville, LECOM, TCOM, NOVA, UNECOM, Touro

What is your opinion on why so many umdnj-som faculty are pcom grads?

 

[Dr JPH]

What is your opinion on why so many umdnj-som faculty are pcom grads?

The schools are 15 miles apart.

I suspect if UMDNJ was older and had a larger class size then most of their profs would be homegrown.

UMDNJ opened in 1976, first graduating class in 1980 and the first people finishing residency 1983-1990 depending on specialty.

Where was the faculty supposed to come from? You needed established osteopathic physicians to come in and teach, precept and run the departments. What better place to get them from than one of the largest and oldest DO schools in the country...and it just happens to be right across the bridge.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

JP,

As a potential applicant to both NYCOM and PCOM, can you elaborate on your earlier comment regarding their potential announcement from these two institutions. Your comment really sparked my curiosity. thanks

 

[JonnyG]

What is your opinion on why so many umdnj-som faculty are pcom grads?

PCOM has probably also produced the most osteopathic physicians of any school (old and large class size)

 

[czanetti]

For the record I wasn't trying to push TCOM. I was just correcting some info that was out there. Yes thousands of people apply to DO schools, how many of those people are applying to these schools as a safety school because they are afraid that they aren't going to get into MD. It makes sense that the number of applicants increases because MD gets more competitive each year (as does DO but at a slightly slower rate). TCOM is a good school, as is every other school. I think the only thing that can make a school better is how established it is. It could take a hundred years or 20 to get established, it is really to subjective to determine. Enough with the pathetic comparisons that are based off of word of mouth remarks when it comes down to it you get into residencies by your Board scores/grades not by the name of your school. Their might be a CORRELATION between kids from Harvard getting into the "best residencies" but that is because of the CORRELATION between grades on the MCAT but I guarantee that not every one from Harvard will beat every DO out of a residency spot. And no offence but being a good primarycare school isn't anything to be ashamed of weather pompous pricks think that it is inferior to there expertise is there prerogative, primary care physicians are a big part of our healthcare system and a vital aspect of the bridge between the specialists and the patients.

 

[Dr JPH]

JP,

As a potential applicant to both NYCOM and PCOM, can you elaborate on your earlier comment regarding their potential announcement from these two institutions. Your comment really sparked my curiosity. thanks

Possible increase in research funding.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So if you want to be a family doc, go to MSUCOM. Thats all those rankings tell me...and thats all those rankings are meant to tell.

Exactly. OSU is the #1 ranked school in Oklahoma (in producing primary care physicians) -- they don't share the latter part on their billboards. Not knocking OSU, but the primary care rankings only say so much.

 

[CatsandCradles]

I never said PCOM was better...those werent my words.

But I dont know how you can tell me that its NOT...from what I know you arent even a medical student, yet you seem to know so much.

Then clearly I have offended you. And therefore it was wrong to have written so poorly.

 

[imari]

TOP 20 (no particular order)
DMUCOM, LECOM, AZCOM, PSCOM, WVSOM, UNECOM, COMP, TOURO, KCOM.

Can I ask you what it is about COMP makes you rate it in the "top 20"? I'm considering attending there and I just want to get some more information, that's why I ask. 🙂 You can PM me if that's better. Thanks.

 

[Kuba]

I think I agree with catsandcradels top 5 more than any top 5 I have seen on SDN before.

 

[MaximusD]

I think I agree with catsandcradels top 5 more than any top 5 I have seen on SDN before.

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that UMDNJ-SOM and NSUCOM are in it?

I'd honestly like you to make the case of why NSU is better than CCOM. I think tuition is a big factor, so I might be willing to grant that UMDNJ-SOM is a better value...

I know that NSU is actively trying to build a hospital, but the fact is that it hasn't yet. Can its clinical roatation sites, as it currently stands, really beat out CCOM's?

I had a friend up here who just got into SOM... she's really excited.

[KUBA, i'm trying to have friendly debate... I in no way think that Nova isn't a great school, and I don't necessarily disagree with it being in the top five]

 

[Dr JPH]

No more PMs

Thanks

👍

 

[MaximusD]

All right, so you want our love notes in the public forum instead?

 

[koennen]

How many Jefferson students have you rotated with? How many lectures have you given at Jefferson? How many Jefferson residents have you worked with?

I never said PCOM was better...those werent my words.

But I dont know how you can tell me that its NOT...from what I know you arent even a medical student, yet you seem to know so much.

You're right. We can't tell you that PCOM is NOT better than Jefferson. But since you have rotated with Jefferson students, worked with Jefferson residents, etc., what is your opinion? Just curious.

 

[Dr JPH]

All right, so you want our love notes in the public forum instead?

Yes

You can PM me drmax...Thats not a problem.

But getting PMs from random people needs to stop.

 

[toothless rufus]

No more PMs

Thanks

👍

LOL! You rock! And I'm happy that your Grizzled-Nick-Nolte-Doctor-Guy finally got himself a Santa Hat!! 🙂

 

[CatsandCradles]

Originally Posted by snowkhat
TCOM is way up there since they are ranked by US News in Primary Care #27 (out of over 200 medical schools in the country). MSU-COM is #4.

So you train good family docs. Thats what that means.

When you've worked with attendings who graduated from every DO school out there you get a pretty clear idea of who THEY think are the best.

Ok then,

These are PCOM's Residency Programs that are in the PCOMednet OPTI:

PCOM/Abington Memorial Hospital - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Abington PA

St Lukes Hospital - Emergency Medicine Residency Emergency Medicine Allentown PA

St Lukes Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Allentown PA

St Lukes Hospital - Obstetrics & Gynecology Residency Obstetrics & Gynecology Allentown PA

PCOM/Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Allentown PA

Altoona Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Altoona PA

PCOM/The Medical Center Beaver PA - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Beaver Falls PA

PCOM/St. Luke's Hospital - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Bethlehem PA

PCOM/Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medicine Residency Emergency Medicine Bethlehem PA

PCOM/Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - General Vascular Surgery Residency General Vascular Surgery Bethlehem PA

PCOM/St. Luke's Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Bethlehem PA

PCOM/Lehigh Valley Hosp/Muhlenberg - Emergency Medical Services Residency Emergency Medical Services Bethlehem PA

Crozer-Chester Medical Center - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Chester PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Danville PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Pediatrics Residency Pediatrics Danville PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Internal Med-Pediatrics Residency Internal Med-Pediatrics Danville PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Obstetrics & Gynecology Residency Obstetrics & Gynecology Danville PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Danville PA

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Reproductive Endocrinology Residency

PCOM/Geisinger Health System - Maternal & Fetal Medicine Residency Maternal & Fetal Medicine Danville PA

PCOM/Easton Hospital - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Easton PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hosp - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hosp - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency Orthopedic Surgery Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hosp - Surgery-General Residency Surgery-General Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hosp - Sports Medicine Residency Sports Medicine Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hospital - Maternal & Fetal Maternal & Fetal Medicine Harrisburg PA

PCOM/Nesbitt Memorial Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Kingston PA

PCOM/Latrobe Area Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Latrobe PA

Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center - Anesthesiology Residency Anesthesiology Lititz PA

Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Lititz PA

Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Lititz PA

Heart of Lancaster Regional Medical Center - Obstetrics & Gynecology Residency Obstetrics & Gynecology Lititz PA

Mercy Suburban Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Norristown PA

Mercy Suburban Hospital - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Norristown PA

Mercy Suburban Hospital - Obstetrics & Gynecology Residency Obstetrics & Gynecology Norristown PA

Mercy Suburban Hospital - Surgery-General Residency Surgery-General Norristown PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Geriatric Medicine-FP Residency Geriatric Medicine-FP Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Neurological Surgery Residency Neurological Surgery Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Obstetrics & Gynecology Residency Obstetrics & Gynecology Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Otolaryn & Facial Plastic Surg Residency Otolaryn & Facial Plastic Surg Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Ophthalmology Residency Ophthalmology Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Orthopedic Surgery Residency Orthopedic Surgery Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Plastic & Reconstructive Surg Residency Plastic & Reconstructive Surg Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Surgery-General Residency Surgery-General Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Urological Surgery Residency Urological Surgery Philadelphia PA

St Joseph's Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medicine Residency Emergency Medicine Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Albert Einstein Med Ctr - Emergency Medical Services Residency Emergency Medical Services Philadelphia PA

Frankford Hospitals - Emergency Medicine Residency Emergency Medicine Philadelphia PA

Frankford Hospitals - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Philadelphia PA

Frankford Hospitals - Internal Med-Emergency Med Residency Internal Med-Emergency Med Philadelphia PA

Frankford Hospitals - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Graduate Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Philadelphia PA

Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Neuromusculoskeletal Med + 1 Residency Neuromusculoskeletal Med + 1 Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Frankford Hospitals - Family Practice/Emergency Med Residency Family Practice/Emergency Med Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Frankford Hospitals - Cardiology Residency Cardiology Philadelphia PA

PCOM/Frankford Hospitals - Dermatology Residency Dermatology Philadelphia PA

PCOM/UPMC/Shadyside Hospital - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Pittsburgh PA

PCOM/St Joseph Medical Center - Family Practice Residency Family Practice Reading PA

PCOM/St Joseph Medical Center - Sports Medicine Residency Sports Medicine Reading PA

PCOM/Reading Hospital and Med Ctr - Internal Medicine Residency Internal Medicine Reading PA


As for MSU-COM... multiply PCOM's list by....like... 4 and add more specialties.

So there's a very good reason why MSU is rated highly by USNews & World Report

That's why I ranked the schools as I did. I went with residency programs. More residency programs means the school is stronger politically and financially.

To make a military anaology, PCOM, NSU, and UMDNJ are like your standard 105mm hotwitzer, but MSU and Ohio are like 155 mm "Long Toms"

UMDNJ
Ohio
MSU
PCOM
NSU

Bad news is MSU is expensive, and Ohio has it's 5 year communist program. It can be a burden going to those schools. So to revist our military anaology...the US military doesn't use 155mm howitzers anymore because while they provide great firepower they are too expensive and too inflexible for mobile warfare.

Hence that's why I put UMDNJ ontop. UMDNJ doesn't have an all mighty residency OPTI program, however let's be honest, this is one of the few school that actively works to get out of state students - instate tutition - and that just says a lot about the school.



...however being a public school can also make you politically corrupted... schools....

Shall we talk about UMDNJ's little Medicare scandal?

 

[Dr JPH]

Well, if a premed who can master the Cut-and-Paste function thinks UMDNJSOM is the best DO school, then thats good enough for me.

🙄

 

[Kuba]

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that UMDNJ-SOM and NSUCOM are in it?

I'd honestly like you to make the case of why NSU is better than CCOM. I think tuition is a big factor, so I might be willing to grant that UMDNJ-SOM is a better value...

I know that NSU is actively trying to build a hospital, but the fact is that it hasn't yet. Can its clinical roatation sites, as it currently stands, really beat out CCOM's?

I had a friend up here who just got into SOM... she's really excited.

[KUBA, i'm trying to have friendly debate... I in no way think that Nova isn't a great school, and I don't necessarily disagree with it being in the top five]

Stop being polite, and start throwing fists! haha, no, im not sure if NSU is in the top 5, probably not, but I liked that list and the reasons behind it. and CCOM.. its a great school with a great rep and some solid chicagoland rotations, but you can make a case for so many schools for reasons like that. Catsandcradles just chose NSU to fill that spot.

 

[WALKE219]

someone was asking about MSUCOM and their reputation outside of the PRIMARY care, where they are "ranked" 4th.. (whatever USNEWS is worth)

They do have a 99.8% first choice match rate which is nice..

Here is some data that might be useful. For affiliated residencies

http://www.com.msu.edu/scs/downloads/doc/Residency Grid - AOA Approved - 04-05.pdf

Just for people interested in MSUCOM and whatnot

 

[toothless rufus]

Do out-of-staters actually apply to MSU? That tuition is real scary!

 

[CatsandCradles]

Well, if a premed who can master the Cut-and-Paste function thinks UMDNJSOM is the best DO school, then thats good enough for me.

🙄

You stated about MSU that...

"So you train good family docs. Thats what that means."

Well let's all go ahead and click:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

Then click Pennsylvannia, then residencies. 94 result. Not all of those are under PCOM's OPTI program. Some are with LECOM some are independent of any OPTI.

Then do that with Michigan. 168 results. Almost everything belongs to Michigan State Osteopathic. Sure KCUMB has a few in Michigan too, but they are few.

JP I recall that you are seeking an AOA surgical residency correct? So I'm pretty sure you have been searching the AOA "opportunities" website up and down looking for those almighty dual AOA/ACGME programs. You should have known better than to claim that MSU just makes "good family docs." That is somewhat misleading for pre-meds to read.

It's not that I don't like PCOM or something, but it's just what the numbers says is available. PCOM brings a lot of things to the table, but looking at it OPTI wise shows that MSU has a lot more numbers. It takes a lot of politcal warmongering and finance to fund all those residency programs.

Judging from PCOM's OPTI/residency they have done a fairly good job at that. But it isn't fair to compare it to MSU. MSU simply has a lot more. And while I have not counted the number of specialties offered by MSU, just scrolling down the list and appears to be a lot.

However MSU has a very steep tutition price. That's why I placed UMDNJ ontop.

Would you like to have to pay $205,000+ in just tution alone? That's not taking into account student living and accruing interest or potential undergrad loans. You might be well over $500,000 in debt by the time you finnish your residency program. Unless you are in a military scholarship, you would be paying off your student loans for a very long time.

Why did I place UMDNJ over Ohio?

Because Ohio makes you sign an additional five year contract with them to stay in Ohio. Don't get me wrong, Ohio is a great state with some very good osteopathic hospitals - but five years is something we all have to consider.

Ontop of all this, UMDNJ is in New Jersey - where there are many DOs and New Jersey is not one of the five mean states that require you to get Resolution 42 or else the AOA ostracizes you. Michigan, Pennsylvannia, and Florida are unfortenantely among those five states. Granted this isn't a big issue, but if you are a student looking to specialize and looking at ACGME residencies... this might be a problem.

On the other hand you could argue that UMDNJ is politcally corrupted, and you'd be correct. Take into acount the latest Medicare scandal at that school - pretty serious.


That being said, I still like PCOM. You don't have to freeze your tail off during the winter like MSU. You guys have opthamology and and ENT residencies. You can head over to Villanova and St. Joe's for a good basketball game. Bala Cynwyd, Bryn Mar and Springfield townships are great places....well Springfield is...

And Narberth is a facinating little town. Speed Limit 25.

 

[WALKE219]

I agree, the tuition for out of state is very very scary... That is because unlike many osteo schools, MSU is a publicly funded major state university.. this probably is a reason why.. Still kind of crazy, although they dofill a class of 205 and growing every year with 95% in state, so I guess it all works out...

Cats, I know I am a bit partial to MSU because I am going there but you are very right, MSU has a HIGHLY impressive list of specialties under their belt, and a WHOLE lot of them at that. So even though US News isn't worth too much, I agree that there is really good reason that they be ranked highly, and against allopathic counterparts. Whether or not it is #4 is always debatable.. and always will be debated. However, if you are interested in osteopathic and want to specialize, I would say it is a VERY, VERY good choice. If not the best choice.. That's why I included the link above, it lists them as of 2005, and that has grown in 2006 by 35% which is a lot...

again http://www.com.msu.edu/scs/downloads...0- 04-05.pdf


Plus MSU has clinical affiliation with 25 hospitals state wide, Many of which are huge trauma hospitals... not simply rural places.. So your clinical options here are many.

 

[WALKE219]

and not to nit pick to whoever said "You train good family docs" but primary care includes internal medicine, OB/GYN and peds, not necessarily "family docs"

 

[MaximusD]

You stated about MSU that...



Well let's all go ahead and click:

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

Then click Pennsylvannia, then residencies. 94 result. Not all of those are under PCOM's OPTI program. Some are with LECOM some are independent of any OPTI.

Then do that with Michigan. 168 results. Almost everything belongs to Michigan State Osteopathic. Sure KCUMB has a few in Michigan too, but they are few.

JP I recall that you are seeking an AOA surgical residency correct? So I'm pretty sure you have been searching the AOA "opportunities" website up and down looking for those almighty dual AOA/ACGME programs. You should have known better than to claim that MSU just makes "good family docs." That is somewhat misleading for pre-meds to read.

It's not that I don't like PCOM or something, but it's just what the numbers says is available. PCOM brings a lot of things to the table, but looking at it OPTI wise shows that MSU has a lot more numbers. It takes a lot of politcal warmongering and finance to fund all those residency programs.

Judging from PCOM's OPTI/residency they have done a fairly good job at that. But it isn't fair to compare it to MSU. MSU simply has a lot more. And while I have not counted the number of specialties offered by MSU, just scrolling down the list and appears to be a lot.

However MSU has a very steep tutition price. That's why I placed UMDNJ ontop.

Would you like to have to pay $205,000+ in just tution alone? That's not taking into account student living and accruing interest or potential undergrad loans. You might be well over $500,000 in debt by the time you finnish your residency program. Unless you are in a military scholarship, you would be paying off your student loans for a very long time.

Why did I place UMDNJ over Ohio?

Because Ohio makes you sign an additional five year contract with them to stay in Ohio. Don't get me wrong, Ohio is a great state with some very good osteopathic hospitals - but five years is something we all have to consider.

Ontop of all this, UMDNJ is in New Jersey - where there are many DOs and New Jersey is not one of the five mean states that require you to get Resolution 42 or else the AOA ostracizes you. Michigan, Pennsylvannia, and Florida are unfortenantely among those five states. Granted this isn't a big issue, but if you are a student looking to specialize and looking at ACGME residencies... this might be a problem.

On the other hand you could argue that UMDNJ is politcally corrupted, and you'd be correct. Take into acount the latest Medicare scandal at that school - pretty serious.


That being said, I still like PCOM. You don't have to freeze your tail off during the winter like MSU. You guys have opthamology and and ENT residencies. You can head over to Villanova and St. Joe's for a good basketball game. Bala Cynwyd, Bryn Mar and Springfield townships are great places....well Springfield is...

And Narberth is a facinating little town. Speed Limit 25.

You still haven't made a case for excluding other schools. AND aren't you a first-year med student? I forget to be honest...

 

[Hernandez]

Exactly. OSU is the #1 ranked school in Oklahoma (in producing primary care physicians) -- they don't share the latter part on their billboards. Not knocking OSU, but the primary care rankings only say so much.

Then what are they waying when both schools produce pretty close to the same percentage-wise primary care docs?

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Then what are they waying when both schools produce pretty close to the same percentage-wise primary care docs?

Don't know and actually the numbers are far enough to make a difference in the rankings. Last I looked, more than 60% of OSU grads do primary care and less than 50% of OU grads do. Again, though, you're ranked the number 1 school in the state in primary care, not the #1 school in the state (there's no ranking for that). The rude a&& billboard in OKC right before the OUHSC center fails to announce that -- I wonder why. 🙄

Actually, from looking at USnews, the # of grads entering primary care is the primary distinction. Your peer assessment score is 2.7, as is OU's. Your assessment score by residency directors is 2.9 and ours is 3.2 However, 67% of your grads go into primary care, and 47% of OU's grads do. So yeah, you tell me why you're ranked higher than us aside from the greater number of docs who go into primary care.

 

[Nate]

This is an example of the kind of PMs I have been getting since I first posted.

You dont like my list then dont bitch to me.

I gave my opinions based on 5 years of seeing, hearing and doing.

Everyone needs to get over their own securities and spend more time studying Netter.

Everyone thinks there school is the best and everyone will stand up for their school to the end. Fine.

But until you have been around, worked at other schools & their hospitals & with their students, worked with their residents and extensively researched what they have to offer what you say is just your opinion...and in the end that means nothing.

Sure, my feelings above are just my opinion but at least they are backed up with information.

Where do the grads go for residency?
What is the quality of the hospitals they rotate through?
Where do their residency programs rank?

You can sit here all day and yap about research money and tuition, but in the end that doesnt get you the top residency.

hah JP, in what world was my comment directed to you? It was directed at this whole thread. Like I have said before, I could care less where you place my school on your list. I am much more interested in where I will do my residency; any US medical school is just a stepping stone to that all important goal. You can formulate as many lists as you want and my reaction to these threads will always be 1) laugh 2)shake my head and 3) mutter "oh ffs"

 

[Orthodoc40]

Do out-of-staters actually apply to MSU? That tuition is real scary!

I applied to the MD program there before realizing the OOS tuition. Mainly b/c I was looking at schools avg MCAT scores and thought their focuses might make me an appealing candidate. Much to my surprise, they have invited me to interview...

And now back to our program....

 

[bravotwozero]

is ffs supposed to be an abbreviation for something, or simply a sound that comes out of your mouth?

 

[CatsandCradles]

You still haven't made a case for excluding other schools. AND aren't you a first-year med student? I forget to be honest...

Well I certaitnly excluded my own school.

But as for NSU being on my list, check this out

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search_results.cfm?CFID=532834&CFTOKEN=ee3b1a235e3e280f-A14F0EFB-F953-C846-E78A55FD88820A17

It's a pretty nice list. Not as big as PCOMs, but still a nice list.

 

[Nate]

when I say it, it means "for funky salamanders"

but
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FFS

BTW,
PCOM stinks and UMDNJ rules because I say so! WOOHOOO now the debate is over (I kid of course, this debate is never over)

and if you're interested
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BTW

 

[Hernandez]

Don't know and actually the numbers are far enough to make a difference in the rankings. Last I looked, more than 60% of OSU grads do primary care and less than 50% of OU grads do.

that's odd considering the last 3 to 4 year match lists put both schools in the 75 to 80% range of primary care. I wonder what I'm considering primary care that they're not.

The rude a&& billboard in OKC right before the OUHSC center fails to announce that -- I wonder why. 🙄

I can tell you why. Money, OSU gets the shaft when it comes to money and there were enough OU supporters and OU people who were (purportedly) pitching a hissy (especially OU-Tulsa) over the TRMC/OSU residency money that OSU began a huge push to promote the school and what they've done in an attempt to get the money they needed to secure our residencies. Don't even get me started on the multi-million dollar expansion that OU is doing and spending money on and then asking for money for it when the discrepancy between how much funding OU vs. OSU medical schools gets. don't take this as a dig to you or the students.

and just to be upfront, I do not like OU. I've had nothing but crappy dealings with the school from undergrad up, with the admin, the staff. I have no need for people who feel superior to me who do not decide to become pleasent until they decide to "extend a great honor to attend" their school especially after calling me a liar to my face (along with other digs) in the interview? I don't know about you, as my old man use to say, that dog don't hunt. I've never understood why OU is so hoity-toity, they're just another state school.

 

[Dr JPH]

It takes a lot of politcal warmongering and finance to fund all those residency programs.

While I agree with a lot of what you said, I think the fact that MSUCOM is a state school helps considerably to grease the wheels of the political process. If a state invests money to train doctors, you bet your ass they are going to do whatever they can to keep those people in state.

Other state schools spread their OPTI all over the place (OUCOM), but they have a means of pulling their people back to practice at home.

Now, the MSUCOM OPTI is nearly twice as large as the PCOM MedNet as far as number of programs (65 to 115), but the difference in funded positions is very close. PCOM with about 645 and MSUCOM with 705. So simply counting the number of programs that are affiliated with each school doesnt give an accurate picture to the number of residents that it represents.

 

[JonnyG]

I disagree with those who say primary care doc rankings don't mean anything. Primary care encompasses FP, IM, Peds .... Just because someone isn't interested in specializing because they want to practice general care and doesn't care about money doesn't mean a whole lot. You can't discount them based on that.

And just because certain schools produce a percentage more Primary care docs vs specialized is honestly crap for me. Yes, match lists are a component but otherwise its a list of things that you need to examine for the school that is best for you.


The pissing contest is getting old ...

Considering more and more medical students do not want to do primary care.............it matters alot

 

[Dr JPH]

Considering more and more medical students do not want to do primary care.............it matters alot

I figured when he mentioned primary care and "doesnt care about money" that he wasnt well versed on the topic...so I let it go.

 

[Dr JPH]

Obviously everyone wants to specialize for the money which is why I brought up THAT point.

I disagree again.

 

[Dr JPH]

And I'd expect that because that was a generalization which isn't ultimately true ... same as the generalizations which some make about "primary care" schools ... seeing the trend?

Oh...so you said it to prove a point.

Well then...

 

[toothless rufus]

I applied to the MD program there before realizing the OOS tuition. Mainly b/c I was looking at schools avg MCAT scores and thought their focuses might make me an appealing candidate. Much to my surprise, they have invited me to interview...

And now back to our program....

Whoa! Now what? Are you going to interview there? Its gotta be hard to not explore all your options! Or does the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ totally preclude consideration?

 

[Orthodoc40]

Whoa! Now what? Are you going to interview there? Its gotta be hard to not explore all your options! Or does the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ totally preclude consideration?

You're right - I have to explore all my options, so I'm going to interview. But I would have to really love it to justify paying that tuition over UMDNJ's!!! Or they'd have to give me some serious scholarship money! Or - I dunno!

 

[toothless rufus]

You're right - I have to explore all my options, so I'm going to interview. But I would have to really love it to justify paying that tuition over UMDNJ's!!! Or they'd have to give me some serious scholarship money! Or - I dunno!

Good luck! Post your impression of the school. I wonder why they have both MD and DO? Interesting!