Top DO schools in terms of curriculum?

[AlteredScale]

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When you talk like that, you come off a little like a pirate.


Maybe it was intentional?

I like Spongebob Squarepants still hahaha. Im a child and think its funny to talk like mr krabs sometimes.

 

[AlteredScale]

Ah gotcha! I will truthfully say I don't have experience enough for that angle. But yes there are schools that probably prepare you better for USMLE than others. @AlteredScale what would your answer me for this?

Hard to say, if you go to a DO school i would say they prepare you for the COMLEX as a priority because you must pass those, USMLE prep is more than likelye supplemental. Then again, you learn everything you need for USMLE. I know that there are like one or two DO schools that require you to take the USMLE.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Just to add on, I think the chances of the USMLE replacing the COMLEX are incredibly small and will only occur when the AOA is entirely powerless as they know the COMLEX makes them way too much money for them to just give up.

 

[asdf123g]

Absolutely not.

1) absolutely not as in they do not have to take the USMLE to be competitive
or
2) thats absolutely not true

If #1, it just comes to show the differences in opinion ugh some say yes, some say no.

 

[drsmpc]

I always see people write that RVU had the highest board scores, but the last time I saw their USMLE avg, it was in the low 220's. This is a respectable avg, but its not the highest among DO schools, let alone the nation.

In 2014, RVU did have the highest COMLEX pass rate, but NOT the highest COMLEX avg.

 

[67552931811]

1) absolutely not as in they do not have to take the USMLE to be competitive
or
2) thats absolutely not true

If #1, it just comes to show the differences in opinion ugh some say yes, some say no.

#1. And, It's not an opinion. Those who say you need to take the usmle don't understand how the military system works

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

In 2014, RVU did have the highest COMLEX pass rate, but NOT the highest COMLEX avg.

What school(s) have had the highest COMLEX average in the past few years? Is there a document that would give this info?
(I'm guessing it's either LECOM-Bradenton or University of North Texas.)

 

[drsmpc]

What school(s) have had the highest COMLEX average in the past few years? Is there a document that would give this info?
(I'm guessing it's either LECOM-Bradenton or University of North Texas.)

To my understanding, the data is not directly published.

 

[hallowmann]

To my understanding, the data is not directly published.

This. You're not going to find it because its not well published, and many schools claim they are "among the top" or first for board averages.

Pass rates are required to be posted on the school's website. Example: LECOM - http://lecom.edu/about-lecom/lecom-accreditation/lecom-comlex-pass-rates/

 

[Harker Heights]

TCOM was #1 for five years in a row according to this email from Dr. Dubin
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/way-to-go-tcom.658860/
TCOM was already #1 when he took the job. It lost the #1 spot after he left, primarily because students started to focus on the USMLE instead.

 

[costales]

Good point - TCOM's success long preceded his brief deanship. His replacement did deemphasize the COMLEX and encourage every student to take the USMLE, and I'd say many current students just aim to pass the COMLEX with a margin (most skip the AOA match anyway).

 

[Mad Jack]

systems based but with a lot more added into it. you do all the systems in one year with the attached clinical training within it (heart and breath sounds during cardio pulm, a lot of omm during musckuloskeletal). on top of that you have exams and competencies for the other classes you are required to take (in one week we had two competency check offs and two exams). first yearnsystems focuses on embryo, physio, anatomy, biochem, immuno. second year is the systems repeated with pharm and path focused. You cannot survive second year using first aid or pathoma as the pathologists who teach the course oull material from big robbins.

Sounds very similar to UNECOM. Except much of our material is more Harrison's focused.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Sounds very similar to UNECOM. Except much of our material is more Harrison's focused.

Harrison's?

They make you read Harrison's??

That's like teaching history using an encyclopedia.

 

[Mad Jack]

Harrison's?

They make you read Harrison's??

That's like teaching history using an encyclopedia.

They don't make us, but that's where all of the suggested reading is. Last year was Robbins for days. We try to get by with other resources, but frequently they'll pull questions that you'd only know from the reading (stuff that isn't covered in lectures, FA, Pathoma, or Kaplan) which is incredibly frustrating because it is often low yield and there is no way to know it all. Up until this last test, things were pretty consistent, so you had a good idea of what alternate resources to use and how, but now it's just gotten insane.

Maybe next test well be better, who knows. But last test was over 100 chapters of recommended reading covered over six weeks, which is just impossible.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I always see people write that RVU had the highest board scores, but the last time I saw their USMLE avg, it was in the low 220's. This is a respectable avg, but its not the highest among DO schools, let alone the nation.

In 2014, RVU did have the highest COMLEX pass rate, but NOT the highest COMLEX avg.

View attachment 197126

Can we talk about how multiple schools have an under 85% first time pass rate on the comlex? How about one school having under an 80?

 

[ninjaman22]

No matter which curriculum...Neuro will always kick your butt

 

[asdf123g]

Can we talk about how multiple schools have an under 85% first time pass rate on the comlex? How about one school having under an 80?

what schools?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

what schools?

Idk, RVU's bar graph doesn't specifically indicate the schools at the bottom of that graph. That being said, and this is another one of my anti-coca stances, but a school with under a 80% first time pass rate should have been placed on prohibition.

 

[drsmpc]

Idk, RVU's bar graph doesn't specifically indicate the schools at the bottom of that graph. That being said, and this is another one of my anti-coca stances, but a school with under a 80% first time pass rate should have been placed on prohibition.

I blame COCA. A direct result of AOA's malignant growth of DO schools - the first classes of new DO schools tend to perform poorly due to disorganization, inexperienced faculty, etc.
Of course there are also schools that run their operations like the island schools, money printing mills. So, they don't really care if a good portion of their students graduate in 5 years instead of 4.

It gives us all a bad rep.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I blame COCA. A direct result of AOA's malignant growth of DO schools - the first classes of new DO schools tend to perform poorly due to disorganization, inexperienced faculty, etc.
Of course there are also schools that run their operations like the island schools, money printing mills. So, they don't really care if a good portion of their students graduate in 5 years instead of 4.

It gives us all a bad rep.

Which is why I believe strongly in LCME accreditation of DO schools.

 

[drsmpc]

Which is why I believe strongly in LCME accreditation of DO schools.

100% agree.

One would think that if one accrediting body for postgraduate training makes sense, then one accrediting body for medical schools is a no brainer... but then the AOA would lose out on its largest revenue streams.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

TCOM was #1 for five years in a row according to this email from Dr. Dubin
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/way-to-go-tcom.658860/
TCOM was already #1 when he took the job. It lost the #1 spot after he left, primarily because students started to focus on the USMLE instead.

Okay, so, I just checked and LECOM-Bradenton average COMLEX score was 572 this year (with 100% first time pass rate)...and they don't even have a "curriculum" per se. It's just self-study through PBL.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Okay, so, I just checked and LECOM-Bradenton average COMLEX score was 572 this year (with 100% first time pass rate)...and they don't even have a "curriculum" per se. It's just self-study through PBL.

I'm not familiar with PBL so I could be wrong but they probably had more freedom to nurture their strengths when studying.

When you're learning from a professor you're pretty much learning what they think is important and how they approach the material. Learning from a book is a standardized method.

In clerkships they probably know how to obtain the information better than people who were spoon fed powerpoints.

Our curriculum is in the middle. A bunch of the lectures are taught really well by professors but sometimes you HAVE to do the reading. By being forced to do the readings I've learned I can look up and absorb information better.

 

[Stagg737]

This is what a 3rd year told me as well. He said a good number of the class was over 600. And I saw a post on here that said KCU had a USMLE average of about 220. I can't find it though so take that for what it is worth. I believe it was Serenade who said that.

We were told in a presentation by an assistant dean that the most recent class had 12 people score above 700 on COMLEX level 1. Their average was around a 537.55 (national was 520.77) and the pass rate was 96.5%, which considering the class size was around 260 people I think that's a pretty solid number. KCU's average for Step 1 (USMLE) was a 224.22, pass rate was 97.5% and 158 people in the class took it. The previous year our average was actually higher. Considering KCU was only a few points below the national average, I don't think it's something most schools would be upset about.

Note: Found an e-mail sent to us, edited for more accurate scores.

I blame COCA. A direct result of AOA's malignant growth of DO schools - the first classes of new DO schools tend to perform poorly due to disorganization, inexperienced faculty, etc.
Of course there are also schools that run their operations like the island schools, money printing mills. So, they don't really care if a good portion of their students graduate in 5 years instead of 4.

It gives us all a bad rep.

I know of 1 or 2 schools that are not new schools that had first time pass rates below 85% when I was applying. Idk if they've improved, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out if they hadn't.

Okay, so, I just checked and LECOM-Bradenton average COMLEX score was 572 this year (with 100% first time pass rate)...and they don't even have a "curriculum" per se. It's just self-study through PBL.

No. None of the LECOMs have had a 100% pass rate in the past 2 years. Bradenton did it twice in the past, but none of them had more than a 98% pass rate on any level this past year. Here's the first time pass rates straight from their website:

http://lecom.edu/about-lecom/lecom-accreditation/lecom-comlex-pass-rates/

Also, idk what their average scores were, but I'd be shocked if it was that high. The highest average score I know of for sure is a 563. I've never heard of a school having an average anywhere close to a 570, or even above a 565. Not saying they don't have strong scores, as I've heard they do very well. I just don't believe their average is a 572 unless I can see it in an administrative email or on their website.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

They mentioned some of the students this past year scored 800+ on COMLEX level 1, which is pretty absurd. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those are outliers, but their average is still pretty high relatively ~572 for c/o 2016

^^

Also, idk what their average scores were, but I'd be shocked if it was that high. The highest average score I know of for sure is a 563. I've never heard of a school having an average anywhere close to a 570, or even above a 565. Not saying they don't have strong scores, as I've heard they do very well. I just don't believe their average is a 572 unless I can see it in an administrative email or on their website.

 

[Stagg737]

^^

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but you already posted one incorrect stat and got your average score from another random pre-med post on the class thread. In that same thread, people were posting that their friends were trying to transfer out of the school due to recent administrative changes and someone else posted this:

How can a school that has a Step 1 average of 570+ w/ 100% pass on first attempt have a 15% failure rate for Step 2? That's a little concerning.

None of which in the above is likely true. Like I said, I believe what LECOM has on their website, and I'll believe their average if I can see a screen shot of an e-mail from an admin or if LECOM posts it on their website.

 

[Mad Jack]

Can we talk about how multiple schools have an under 85% first time pass rate on the comlex? How about one school having under an 80?

http://www.une.edu/com/admissions/information/graduate-medical-education-and-comlex-results

We're over the national average.

 

[drsmpc]

Every school thinks they're Neo from The Matrix.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but you already posted one incorrect stat and got your average score from another random pre-med post on the class thread. In that same thread, people were posting that their friends were trying to transfer out of the school due to recent administrative changes and someone else posted this:

Fair. If I decide to attend the interview and they discuss it, I promise to quickly take out my iPhone, take a picture of the powerpoint slide, and add it to this discussion when I get back home.
As a current student, how important do you think these figures are (average first time pass rate, median score, etc.)?

 

[ClassicJandT]

Do HPSP students have to worry about taking the USMLE since they are doing military match (most are doing milmatch)?

Yes

What makes you say yes?

 

[Oh_Gee]

What makes you say yes?

a quick google search led to some sdn posts about people asking about that

 

[Dohnut]

Ain't that the goddamn truth

You'll experience the same thing anywhere you go. We all learn the same material in the same time frame

 

[Dohnut]

Great idea there! It might as well happen before merger time.

Which is why I believe strongly in LCME accreditation of DO schools.

 

[Stagg737]

Fair. If I decide to attend the interview and they discuss it, I promise to quickly take out my iPhone, take a picture of the powerpoint slide, and add it to this discussion when I get back home.
As a current student, how important do you think these figures are (average first time pass rate, median score, etc.)?

This is what I did: I looked for schools that had first time pass rates above 95% (consistently if I could find the data for multiple years). IMO, pass rates above 95% tells me that it is not the curriculum that's the problem, but rather a few outliers that didn't work hard enough. Especially if I also knew they were at or above the national average for boards. I did not apply to any schools that had a pass rate below 90%. Below 90% tells me that the school either accepts a large number of students that can't handle medical school or that their curriculum is not sufficient for many students to pass boards.

To me, it was important to know that the vast majority of their students passed the boards (preferably first time), and that the school's average wasn't far below the national average. As long as both of those were true, I think it becomes all about the individual in terms of how well they do. In terms of long-run, I also looked at a few match lists. I considered how many people went into non-competitive fields vs. more competitive fields, how many people went ACGME vs. AOA (probably won't matter/be reported in the future), and what the quality of the programs matched were. That's how I ended up where I am, and so far I'm very happy with where I'm at.

 

[arc5005]

This is what I did: I looked for schools that had first time pass rates above 95% (consistently if I could find the data for multiple years). IMO, pass rates above 95% tells me that it is not the curriculum that's the problem, but rather a few outliers that didn't work hard enough. Especially if I also knew they were at or above the national average for boards. I did not apply to any schools that had a pass rate below 90%. Below 90% tells me that the school either accepts a large number of students that can't handle medical school or that their curriculum is not sufficient for many students to pass boards.

To me, it was important to know that the vast majority of their students passed the boards (preferably first time), and that the school's average wasn't far below the national average. As long as both of those were true, I think it becomes all about the individual in terms of how well they do. In terms of long-run, I also looked at a few match lists. I considered how many people went into non-competitive fields vs. more competitive fields, how many people went ACGME vs. AOA (probably won't matter/be reported in the future), and what the quality of the programs matched were. That's how I ended up where I am, and so far I'm very happy with where I'm at.

Do you have a list of those schools that had above a 90% pass rate?

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

This is what I did: I looked for schools that had first time pass rates above 95% (consistently if I could find the data for multiple years). IMO, pass rates above 95% tells me that it is not the curriculum that's the problem, but rather a few outliers that didn't work hard enough. Especially if I also knew they were at or above the national average for boards. I did not apply to any schools that had a pass rate below 90%. Below 90% tells me that the school either accepts a large number of students that can't handle medical school or that their curriculum is not sufficient for many students to pass boards.

To me, it was important to know that the vast majority of their students passed the boards (preferably first time), and that the school's average wasn't far below the national average. As long as both of those were true, I think it becomes all about the individual in terms of how well they do. In terms of long-run, I also looked at a few match lists. I considered how many people went into non-competitive fields vs. more competitive fields, how many people went ACGME vs. AOA (probably won't matter/be reported in the future), and what the quality of the programs matched were. That's how I ended up where I am, and so far I'm very happy with where I'm at.

Cool. Thank you for walking us through that. I appreciate it.

 

[simbad8]

Keep in mind that you can't really rely on first time pass rates being indicative of anything when the school can stop you from taking boards until you're ready if they think you're going to fail. Some schools do that and some schools don't, so FTPR isn't really a fair comparison.

 

[Stagg737]

Do you have a list of those schools that had above a 90% pass rate?

I don't. But you're pretty safe with any of the 'top tier'/better DO schools. Some searches on here should give you an idea of 10-12 that are solid schools.

 

[AzizImSorry]

We were told in a presentation by an assistant dean that the most recent class had 12 people score above 700 on COMLEX level 1. Their average was around a 537.55 (national was 520.77) and the pass rate was 96.5%, which considering the class size was around 260 people I think that's a pretty solid number. KCU's average for Step 1 (USMLE) was a 224.22, pass rate was 97.5% and 158 people in the class took it. The previous year our average was actually higher. Considering KCU was only a few points below the national average, I don't think it's something most schools would be upset about.

Note: Found an e-mail sent to us, edited for more accurate scores.



I know of 1 or 2 schools that are not new schools that had first time pass rates below 85% when I was applying. Idk if they've improved, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out if they hadn't.



No. None of the LECOMs have had a 100% pass rate in the past 2 years. Bradenton did it twice in the past, but none of them had more than a 98% pass rate on any level this past year. Here's the first time pass rates straight from their website:

http://lecom.edu/about-lecom/lecom-accreditation/lecom-comlex-pass-rates/

Also, idk what their average scores were, but I'd be shocked if it was that high. The highest average score I know of for sure is a 563. I've never heard of a school having an average anywhere close to a 570, or even above a 565. Not saying they don't have strong scores, as I've heard they do very well. I just don't believe their average is a 572 unless I can see it in an administrative email or on their website.

I took this pic directly from the information packet LECOM-B handed out on interview day:

 

[Stagg737]

I took this pic directly from the information packet LECOM-B handed out on interview day:

View attachment 197299

I'd like to know how many people they had take the exam, as well as how many people in that class weren't allowed to take it that year due to insufficient grades/not being ready to take it. Either way, that's still a very impressive score. Their average is competitive for pretty much any specialty.

 

[Henry101]

I'd like to know how many people they had take the exam, as well as how many people in that class weren't allowed to take it that year due to insufficient grades/not being ready to take it. Either way, that's still a very impressive score. Their average is competitive for pretty much any specialty.

Honestly though, I wonder how much longer the school can pull off a score higher than 550. 572 is so high that it's almost impossible to sustain.
Very impressive nonetheless. It's even more impressive when you consider how "minimal" their curriculum is, especially in the second year.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

I'd like to know how many people they had take the exam, as well as how many people in that class weren't allowed to take it that year due to insufficient grades/not being ready to take it. Either way, that's still a very impressive score. Their average is competitive for pretty much any specialty.

So is this the highest average you've heard of now of any DO school?

 

[Stagg737]

So is this the highest average you've heard of now of any DO school?

For COMLEX, yes. There may have been higher in the past, but I haven't seen it. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they achieved that score while letting all of their students take the exam.

Honestly though, I wonder how much longer the school can pull off a score higher than 550. 572 is so high that it's almost impossible to sustain.
Very impressive nonetheless. It's even more impressive when you consider how "minimal" their curriculum is, especially in the second year.

True, I know that I personally would not have done well there because their curriculum does not fit my learning style in the least. I'm guessing they probably won't have a problem staying over 550. There's several schools that have done it pretty consistently for a few years now (TCOM and RVU were both 560+ for a few years in a row). I'd be interested to see if it's really the curriculum though or if the two classes on there with high averages were just outliers or if it will be a continuing trend. Especially since it is such a minimalist and unstructured curriculum, as you said.

Clearly it's working for many of their students though. Even if those scores were severely inflated, ten points less for an average would still be very impressive.

 

[AzizImSorry]

For COMLEX, yes. There may have been higher in the past, but I haven't seen it. Frankly, I'd be shocked if they achieved that score while letting all of their students take the exam.



True, I know that I personally would not have done well there because their curriculum does not fit my learning style in the least. I'm guessing they probably won't have a problem staying over 550. There's several schools that have done it pretty consistently for a few years now (TCOM and RVU were both 560+ for a few years in a row). I'd be interested to see if it's really the curriculum though or if the two classes on there with high averages were just outliers or if it will be a continuing trend. Especially since it is such a minimalist and unstructured curriculum, as you said.

Clearly it's working for many of their students though. Even if those scores were severely inflated, ten points less for an average would still be very impressive.

I'm curious about whether it's the curriculum or the students too. I also wonder about how many of their students actually take the exam, but if they did keep certain students from taking it, that would most likely also account for the high first-time pass rate (now and in the past).