Top Residency For Carribean Students

[libertyyne]

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since we have taken this side turn here is some NRMP provided data on the differences between FMGs and DO applicants.

So it seems like FMGs that matched had higher Step I Scores, More research, publications, percentage PHDs, work experience, grad degrees and lower number of volunteer experiences.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

since we have taken this side turn here is some NRMP provided data on the differences between FMGs and DO applicants.
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So it seems like FMGs that matched had higher Step I Scores, More research, publications, percentage PHDs, work experience, grad degrees and lower number of volunteer experiences.

Unfortunately a head to head comprisipn still can’t be made because the majority of the best DO applicants are not found in that report as they still mostly matched AOA. However I think people often forget that FMG =\= IMG and many of these FMGs are pretty baller applicants.

 

[libertyyne]

Unfortunately a head to head comprisipn still can’t be made because the majority of the best DO applicants are not found in that report as they still mostly matched AOA. However I think people often forget that FMG =\= IMG and many of these FMGs are pretty baller applicants.

I agree, you are also excluding the bottom end of the DO pool that rely upon the non competitive FM and TRI positions.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Just want to clarify that the thread I linked and the NRMP PD report actually show that some programs in some specialties (I think ENT and neurosurg) apparently favor US IMG over DO (granted US IMG isn't the same as Carib since people can go to Duke-NUS and other programs).

See pg 94 for ENT and look for "Percentage of Programs that Typically Interview and Rank Each Applicant Type": http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

I can understand the frustration since the data don't agree with what we think happens, and personally for me, this is upsetting since I didn't expect programs to be so strongly influenced by letters after someone's name that they would consider a US IMG over DO. It's irritating but life isn't fair and PDs are subject to biases and elitism. That's why as much as I want to agree with the claim that programs never favor IMGs over DOs, the reality sadly disagrees.

Not sure why you linked the 2016 survey when the 2018 has been released, and shows a somewhat more favorable attitude toward DOs relative to US and Foreign IMGs. That being said, there still seems to be some bias against DOs relative to US IMGs for neurosurgery, neurology (!?), plastic surgery, general surgery and vascular surgery. I would not have expected any specialty to prefer US IMGs to DOs, so I am surprised. DO is certainly the better choice if you want to practice medicine in the US (family medicine programs and most IM programs regard DOs similarly to MDs, and there still many available spots for US graduates). But DO doesn't seem to offer much of an advantage, relative to US IMG, for competitive residences, into which both DOs and US IMGs are still very unlikely to match.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not sure why you linked the 2016 survey when the 2018 has been released, and shows a somewhat more favorable attitude toward DOs relative to US and Foreign IMGs. That being said, there still seems to be some bias against DOs relative to US IMGs for neurosurgery, neurology (!?), plastic surgery, general surgery and vascular surgery. I would not have expected any specialty to prefer US IMGs to DOs, so I am surprised. DO is certainly the better choice if you want to practice medicine in the US (family medicine programs and most IM programs regard DOs similarly to MDs, and there still many available spots for US graduates). But DO doesn't seem to offer much of an advantage, relative to US IMG, for competitive residences, into which both DOs and US IMGs are still very unlikely to match.

You forget all the former AOA programs. Even with the merger a DO has better chances at these fields than IMGs.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

AUC has had 2 Optho, 2 Derm, and 1 Vascular surgery residency matches in the past 2 years.

I looked at AUC's match list. In fact, in 2018, they had an Ortho match!

But it's very important to look at the pathway that person took. The AUC grad matched at SUNY Downstate, a quick look at their website will give you that resident's name. Searching their LinkedIn profile (and research productivity) demonstrates that they graduated in 2013, then worked in multiple research jobs for 5+ years, generating 70+ publications, before matching.

If your plan is to go to AUC and go into one of the lower or mid competitive fields, then that's a reasonable plan (although has some risk). If you would be happy with IM --> Sports Medicine, then fine. If you're really gung ho about Ortho, this is a really bad plan. But I wish you the best of lcuk whatever you choose.

 

[Ho0v-man]

^^^Hey but at least they didn’t waste a year doing a post-bac...

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

This thread needs more @OrthoTraumaMD

For some reason, my phone stopped notifying me when my name is mentioned. But here I am LOL…

OK, OP.... I personally know only one human being who graduated from an international school who became an orthopedic resident. One. Exceptions are called exceptions because of the rules that they are exceptions to. Chances are, you will fall in with the 99% of people who do not match. Think of it this way… We have 600 applicants for five spots on average. Basically all of them are from American medical schools, with stellar board scores, 10 publications or more, etc. Some are Olympic level athletes, marines, even navy seals, or the sons (and sometimes daughters) of program directors who make a phone call, and there goes your application, down the toilet, in favor of Junior. You honestly think some schlub from the Caribbean will even make it to the list when put against those people? You’re dealing with not only what’s on your application, but personal connections. Ortho is a very old club, with many members. I’ve been on the receiving end of both the good and the bad sides of that (lost a fellowship spot to a “junior” despite having a better application, and also gained some favors through people I knew later on as an attending). Your thoughts about being “put on a project” by some guy you don’t know and who owes you nothing is not going to land you a spot, maybe a courtesy interview but that’s about it. And even that’s a stretch.

And the fact that you’re not willing to look into alternative routes, and relying on a miracle, does not bode well for you. Please rethink your strategy.


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[OrthoTraumaMD]

But it's very important to look at the pathway that person took. The AUC grad matched at SUNY Downstate, a quick look at their website will give you that resident's name. Searching their LinkedIn profile (and research productivity) demonstrates that they graduated in 2013, then worked in multiple research jobs for 5+ years, generating 70+ publications, before matching.

OP should read this paragraph several times. Downstate is a **** hole. And to land the spot even there took five or more years of work. If OP is not willing to even wait an extra year to do a post bacc, how does five years of research sound and still no match?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

The only thing that USMD over USDO means is that you were a stronger applicant for medical school. On average, it means that your grades were better, your standardized scores were better and your ECs were better. I don't think that that is really disputable. It really says nothing else about the other factors that come into play as far as becoming a good resident or a good physician.

While I certainly don't know the clinical training at all schools across the country, I don't think that most would dispute that the quality of medical education is different, especially in the clinical years. No school is perfect and certainly every school has it's fair share of dud rotations, but there is a gap. Certainly not as large as the IMG to everyone else gap, but it is still there.

I only know applications to a very competitive specialty at one of the larger, more competitive programs. So yes, my commentary should only be applied to discussion of students applying to similar programs. But, I do now have about 5 years worth of experience looking at USMD, USDO, FMG and IMG applications. Given that the bulk of people applying vascular apply to our program, I think that I see a fairly good cross section of those applying to vascular. I didn't 'conveniently' leave anything out. This thread is about "Top residency". I think it is a stupidly inexact term, but given that most people in this thread are treating it as, "competitive programs" or "competitive specialties", I don't think it is particularly relevant how the least competitive programs in the least competitive specialties are filling.

Not always true. There are students who are accepted at both US MD & DO institutions but chose DO bc of location, cost ,etc. Maybe a few who really love OMM or they had a DO in the family. This is not the majority but one could probably glimpse at one's CV to see what their past was like. I do believe that the merger will help with the discrimination/bias in the long run. Hopefully the thousands of threads and blog posts on MD vs DO will one day be history.

 

[libertyyne]

Not always true. There are students who are accepted at both US MD & DO institutions but chose DO bc of location, cost ,etc. Maybe a few who really love OMM or they had a DO in the family. This is not the majority but one could probably glimpse at one's CV to see what their past was like. I do believe that the merger will help with the discrimination/bias in the long run. Hopefully the thousands of threads and blog posts on MD vs DO will one day be history.

Or it might enhance the bias if the data does show clear differences in Step and research productivity.

 

[Donald Juan]

OP, I've known two people over the last ~7 years that matched into urology from the Caribbean, both were all around rock stars and had to do multiple years of research. Both of them would tell you not to do what you are doing and that it will be a completely uphill, near impossible battle and they both lamented going to a Caribbean school.

I know you really want to prove everyone wrong, and that everybody here who tells you not to do it only makes you want to do it more and show them up. Realize this: on the off chance that in 6-7 years you are matriculating into ortho at a low tier school when you have 50+ publications and a 270, you will still come back here and say going to the caribbean was a mistake and you should have taken a year to reapply to USMD. There will be no validation for your decision.

 

[Med Ed]

When people talk about Carib medical schools they are referring to medical schools in the Caribbean.

In this context "Carib med school" means Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, or one of the lesser known schools that exists specifically to cater to American and Canadian students. They are quite different from the majority of medical schools in the Caribbean. If you do not understand the distinction then you should not be participating in this discussion.

In the end, OP, if you want to be a physician, specialist or generalist, it really is on you.

OP wants to be an orthopedic surgeon, which is why finding the names of random physicians who graduated from schools that aren't Ross, SGU, AUC, Saba, etc. is unhelpful.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What tipped you off he attended a private Roman Catholic university?

La Universidad Católica Madre y Maestra, Dominican Republic​

All Catholic academic institutions are private. Additionally, Madre y Maestra isn't just a Catholic university but a Pontifical university. You do the clicking to investigate the difference but given your animus I know where this is going



When people talk about Carib medical schools they are referring to medical schools in the Caribbean. Given your animus in your comment, I was loathe to respond because only on SDN are IMGs and Step scores considered the mother of all things in medicine. Some of you really need to unplug from SDN and interact with people

I was born, bred and lived in the Caribbean before moving to the USA. I have visited roughly half of the Caribbean islands, have family living in the Caribbean and South America, and I have visited Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, most of Central America and others. I have seen some of the medical schools in Caribbean and Latin America, and they are all pretty much the same as to living conditions and resources, hospital caliber, etc. Unlike in America, the medical students in the Caribbean and the Americas overcome great adversity to graduate, e.g. impoverished countries, mediocre faculty, poor technological resources, antiquated diagnostic and treatment paradigms, etc. Thus to graduate from the Caribbean and anywhere Latin America is a herculean feat compared to the USA/Canadian LCME Programs. Given my unique vantage point, many American LCME students couldn't survive in Caribbean/ L.A. (Latin American) medical schools. Most of you are so damned spoiled its sickening. But that's America in general.

The student makes a physician, not a medical school. It's up to the student to be the best physician in training they can be, not the school. In America, students brag about skipping lectures, memorizing USAP, and fumbling through clinical rotations. From my perspectives it's sickening to read the many SDN posts starting with "Help", "What are my chances", "What do I do", etc. These kids wouldn't survive in Latin America.

IMG & FMG graduates have a quality that many USA LCME students lack: gravitas

Thre



the response was to OP, not you, so it's instructive you would feel the need "need" to engage this line of "thought"




Ignacio Cendan, Rafael Yanes, Larissa Hernandez-Cabarga, Maykel Rodriguez Trotter, Edgar Sandoval, and these are just physicians I found in 10 minutes on MSMC. In fairness, I know many physicians in Miami and worked with them as a clinician and then industry sales rep. When you meet physicians in Miami, chances are pretty high they graduated from the Caribbean or Latin America as an IMG or FMG.

In the end, OP, if you want to be a physician, specialist or generalist, it really is on you. It would be easier, far easier, to do it in America. My medical school is a palace made of marble compared to Cuba or Dominican Republic, and many of the kids are really spoiled brats. However, you can become a physician if you have the ganas.

Ganas is where it's at

best wishes

You have completely missed the point, and aren’t really even talking about the same thing.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

What tipped you off he attended a private Roman Catholic university?

La Universidad Católica Madre y Maestra, Dominican Republic​

All Catholic academic institutions are private. Additionally, Madre y Maestra isn't just a Catholic university but a Pontifical university. You do the clicking to investigate the difference but given your animus I know where this is going



When people talk about Carib medical schools they are referring to medical schools in the Caribbean. Given your animus in your comment, I was loathe to respond because only on SDN are IMGs and Step scores considered the mother of all things in medicine. Some of you really need to unplug from SDN and interact with people

I was born, bred and lived in the Caribbean before moving to the USA. I have visited roughly half of the Caribbean islands, have family living in the Caribbean and South America, and I have visited Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, most of Central America and others. I have seen some of the medical schools in Caribbean and Latin America, and they are all pretty much the same as to living conditions and resources, hospital caliber, etc. Unlike in America, the medical students in the Caribbean and the Americas overcome great adversity to graduate, e.g. impoverished countries, mediocre faculty, poor technological resources, antiquated diagnostic and treatment paradigms, etc. Thus to graduate from the Caribbean and anywhere Latin America is a herculean feat compared to the USA/Canadian LCME Programs. Given my unique vantage point, many American LCME students couldn't survive in Caribbean/ L.A. (Latin American) medical schools. Most of you are so damned spoiled its sickening. But that's America in general.

The student makes a physician, not a medical school. It's up to the student to be the best physician in training they can be, not the school. In America, students brag about skipping lectures, memorizing USAP, and fumbling through clinical rotations. From my perspectives it's sickening to read the many SDN posts starting with "Help", "What are my chances", "What do I do", etc. These kids wouldn't survive in Latin America.

IMG & FMG graduates have a quality that many USA LCME students lack: gravitas

Thre



the response was to OP, not you, so it's instructive you would feel the need "need" to engage this line of "thought"




Ignacio Cendan, Rafael Yanes, Larissa Hernandez-Cabarga, Maykel Rodriguez Trotter, Edgar Sandoval, and these are just physicians I found in 10 minutes on MSMC. In fairness, I know many physicians in Miami and worked with them as a clinician and then industry sales rep. When you meet physicians in Miami, chances are pretty high they graduated from the Caribbean or Latin America as an IMG or FMG.

In the end, OP, if you want to be a physician, specialist or generalist, it really is on you. It would be easier, far easier, to do it in America. My medical school is a palace made of marble compared to Cuba or Dominican Republic, and many of the kids are really spoiled brats. However, you can become a physician if you have the ganas.

Ganas is where it's at

best wishes

You basically reiterated what everyone has been saying about it being so much harder... You just took it from a "woe is me" viewpoint

 

[Dwan]

mediocre faculty, poor technological resources, antiquated diagnostic and treatment paradigms, etc. Thus to graduate from the Caribbean and anywhere Latin America is a herculean feat compared to the USA/Canadian LCME Programs.

Why are you proud to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for this? Not sure how they brainwashed you to somehow transform this into a positive.

 

[rg2o3]

Spend a few days in medical schools in the Caribbean and Latin America
Visit Pan American Hospital, Hialeah Hospital, Palmetto Hospital, Coral Gables Hospital, Jackson Memorial Hospital, etc, and get back to us with your findings

first you need to find Miami. Google maps might help you

For any IMG seeking to be a licensed and board certified physician in America, you can do it. SDN is not reality.

cheers

Not being rude, just talking, but what’s your explanation of the charting outcomes and poor match rates for IMG?

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

One of the more insightful laws we had to memorize in Physics was:
Work = Force x Distance

thats it. there is nothing really magical about this scenario.

Just do the work. And if you messed up college because you did not take it seriously, then work hard therafter to achieve your goal of being an MD. Where ever you are, there you start. thats pretty basic

If I had to choose between two medical school graduates, one who worked their arses off in San Pedro de Marcoris or Madre y Maestra in DR (two inferior schools to Ross) versus an MD grad from LCME school who skipped classes, memorized UFAP, whined and complained through rotations (like in my school), I would pick the DR grads without batting an eye. They know hard work and sacrifice.

Pedro Greer was my first example. I provided others.
All shot down of course, but this is expected since this is SDN

vaya con Dios

That’s great that you would pick that student; most would pick the student who was required to pass a standardized curriculum, who didn’t have to contend with living conditions in a developing nation during their pre-clinical years, and who were actually required to pass their boards in a timely manner in order to graduate (there are definitely Caribbean schools who don’t require this). Don’t get me wrong, one of the most solid students I’ve ever met was from a Caribbean school, and I have little doubt that he’ll be one of the handful that actually matches into what he’s aiming for. But seriously, your posts have me wondering, do you have investments tied up in a Caribbean school or something? Because that’s the only reason that I can think of for your advice other than just a complete lack of common sense.

 

[raiderette]

One of the more insightful laws we had to memorize in Physics was:
Work = Force x Distance

thats it. there is nothing really magical about this scenario.

Just do the work. And if you messed up college because you did not take it seriously, then work hard therafter to achieve your goal of being an MD. Where ever you are, there you start. thats pretty basic

If I had to choose between two medical school graduates, one who worked their arses off in San Pedro de Marcoris or Madre y Maestra in DR (two inferior schools to Ross) versus an MD grad from LCME school who skipped classes, memorized UFAP, whined and complained through rotations (like in my school), I would pick the DR grads without batting an eye. They know hard work and sacrifice.

Pedro Greer was my first example. I provided others.
All shot down of course, but this is expected since this is SDN

vaya con Dios

Those grads have an uphill battle even getting a residency so that they can become attendings. Truthfully, I will take an FMG over an IMG, but that is because I was raised in the sticks where nobody wants to train or work. Still, I check the ages and photos of these FMGs that are so amazing, and they are older, when DO schools weren't on every block. Good or bad doctor, residencies don't really want to hire foreign workers with extra paperwork. Hire USMD because of the consistent standards. Hire DO for the test score, consistent pre-clinical standards. Hire IMG and FMG if you can't attract the first two.

 

[Snoopy2006]

One of the more insightful laws we had to memorize in Physics was:
Work = Force x Distance

thats it. there is nothing really magical about this scenario.

So if Caribbean grads have objectively lower match rates than USMDs, and your explanation for that is "just do the work," are you implying less Caribbean students are willing to do the work compared to US grads? It seems like you're arguing against yourself.

You're painting with a broad brush here. Those US students who "skipped classes, memorized UFAP, whined and complained through rotations" also displayed the ability to work hard enough to maintain a strong undergrad GPA and score well on their MCAT. The same cannot be said about most US grads who go to the Caribbean out of necessity.

You're ignoring the darker side of these schools: by often misrepresenting their Match success, they entice unwitting college students to take out disastrous amounts of student loans when their intention is to never pass all of them, deserving or not. These schools accept more pre-clinical students than the amount of M3/M4 clinical rotation slots they have available in the US. They intend for a significant portion of these students to fail out. If you don't see that as a huge ethical dilemma, I don't know what to tell you.

It's why I'll never place true foreign grads in the same boat as Americans who try to backdoor their way through the Caribbean. I have great respect for FMGs that train in their own country and are willing to come here and re-do their training. I can't support the Caribbean schools predatory model.

 

[rg2o3]

One of the more insightful laws we had to memorize in Physics was:
Work = Force x Distance

thats it. there is nothing really magical about this scenario.

Just do the work. And if you messed up college because you did not take it seriously, then work hard therafter to achieve your goal of being an MD. Where ever you are, there you start. thats pretty basic

If I had to choose between two medical school graduates, one who worked their arses off in San Pedro de Marcoris or Madre y Maestra in DR (two inferior schools to Ross) versus an MD grad from LCME school who skipped classes, memorized UFAP, whined and complained through rotations (like in my school), I would pick the DR grads without batting an eye. They know hard work and sacrifice.

Pedro Greer was my first example. I provided others.
All shot down of course, but this is expected since this is SDN

vaya con Dios

This doesn’t even answer my question..

 

[Instatewaiter]

I have seen some of the medical schools in Caribbean and Latin America, and they are all pretty much the same as to living conditions and resources, hospital caliber, etc. Unlike in America, the medical students in the Caribbean and the Americas overcome great adversity to graduate, e.g. impoverished countries, mediocre faculty, poor technological resources, antiquated diagnostic and treatment paradigms, etc.

The student makes a physician, not a medical school.

Actually it is the training that makes a physician. That is why people coming from crappy medical schools and more importantly crappy residencies tend to be crappy physicians. When the people training you how to be a doctor are using antiquated diagnostics and antiquated treatment paradigms you are not going to be a good doctor. When the people training you are "mediocre" you're not going to be the next Osler. Having followed this trainwreck of a thread, I don't really know what the point of your 60 page rambling was but I think you are way off base about the bolded. This is why choosing the appropriate medical training is a good idea. All schools don't produce a uniform quality of physicians.

OP, spend an extra year doing an SMP or post-bac and don't look back. You're a fool if you opt to go to the carribean when you have other options.

 

[IMreshopeful]

It is exceedingly rare for anyone to match into Ortho coming from a Caribbean school. One of the dudes rotating with me as a medical student (my USMD school shared a hospital we rotated at with some Caribbean school students) was the top of his class at his Caribbean school. He was applying for Ortho. His board scores were well above 250-260, was the top ranked student, had research... and still didn't match Ortho. He ultimately ended up going to a good general surgery program as a categorical resident and not a prelim (which in and of itself is a huge feat as a Carib student). All I can say is, that guy was one of the best medical students I had ever seen, and had a near perfect application, but got immediately weeded out because of his school of origin. This is the reality, I think.

Sometimes people get lucky. I know of a Caribbean student who matched at a low-tier University program, became chief resident, and is now doing a subspecialty. That student was NOT a top student by any means, but sometimes luck has a funny way of doing things.

 

[IMreshopeful]

Actually it is the training that makes a physician. That is why people coming from crappy medical schools and more importantly crappy residencies tend to be crappy physicians. When the people training you how to be a doctor are using antiquated diagnostics and antiquated treatment paradigms you are not going to be a good doctor. When the people training you are "mediocre" you're not going to be the next Osler. Having followed this trainwreck of a thread, I don't really know what the point of your 60 page rambling was but I think you are way off base about the bolded. This is why choosing the appropriate medical training is a good idea. All schools don't produce a uniform quality of physicians.

OP, spend an extra year doing an SMP or post-bac and don't look back. You're a fool if you opt to go to the carribean when you have other options.

Osler... hmm... wonder what residency YOU attended

I agree though with the gist of this - residency by and far is what makes you a good doctor. Medical school taught me how to do well on tests and gain some basics that will allow me to not kill a patient.

 

[Raney Schauer]

...sometimes luck has a funny way of doing things.

Luck or hard work? The latter methinks.

 

[IMreshopeful]

Luck or hard work? The latter methinks.

No, they got lucky. I won’t go into details here. That person’s scores and grades should not have landed them an academic residency.

 

[BidingMyTime]

I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself.

And you want Ortho as your specialty? Ortho is one of the more time-consuming specialties. People who want a balanced lifestyle do NOT go into ortho. I think you really need to research specialties some more, and the lifestyles they have. Or are you saying you want to go ortho, just because they make the most money, and not because you actually know anything about ortho?

 

[Raney Schauer]

I think you really need to research specialties some more, and the lifestyles they have.

Point the poster towards some quality resources so that they can accomplish said nebulous research. That's probably what brings 99% of new users here to begin with.

 

[whoknows2012]

I have a friend who went to one of the Caribbean schools (forget which one) worked his ass off, killed step 1/2 (>250) several years ago, and wanted ortho. Ended up doing research for I believe 2 years at one of the best joint disease hospitals in the country and eventually matched (at a community program) and is now starting his 3rd year. This is not a success story as much as it is a cautionary tale. If everything lines up could you match ortho? Sure I think it’s POSSIBLE. But if ortho is actually your goal and to do it as quickly as possible an smp or post bacc are your best options with reapplication to us MD/DO as others have mentioned. This person above spent the 4 years of med school, and 2-3 years of research just readying himself for a 5 year residency. That’s 12 years! If you do end up staying in the Caribbean all you can do is understand the uphill battle you have and work your butt off, even if many of us completely recommend against this decision, ultimately it’s yours to make.

 

[Med Ed]

Was reminded of this thread when I came across the following in General Residency:

US IMG Graduate Didn't Match in 2018 Repeat Applicant Need Residency Advice

What's eerie is seeing the poster's situation in 2012: cGPA 3.2, sGPA 2.9, MCAT 26.

 

[QueenJames]

OP should read this paragraph several times. Downstate is a **** hole. And to land the spot even there took five or more years of work. If OP is not willing to even wait an extra year to do a post bacc, how does five years of research sound and still no match?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

5 years....

Even if dude did FM/IM in some backwater town making anywhere from $220-300K...

That's more than $1 million in potential salary (before taxes and cost of living of course) gone.

Dude could have paid off his loans in that time with some hard work, very very verrryyy frugal spending, etc.

I personally know a FEW residents that did exactly this.

JESUS.

Opportunity cost is a bitch.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I’m surprised nobody mentioned this sooner.

Even the smaller DPM schools will salivate over that MCAT score, even with a 2.8 GPA. This gives the OP a chance to do surgery on the foot and ankle. Prolly the closest thing to an Ortho surgeon he will get. National pod match rates this year were close to 100%, so much less risky then Caribbean.

DPM would be perfect.

 

[Robin-jay]

I’m surprised nobody mentioned this sooner.

Even the smaller DPM schools will salivate over that MCAT score, even with a 2.8 GPA. This gives the OP a chance to do surgery on the foot and ankle. Prolly the closest thing to an Ortho surgeon he will get. National pod match rates this year were close to 100%, so much less risky then Caribbean.

After reading these forums, I'm convinced people care about prestige 80+% of time. I have a friend right now that only applied MD, and while she is amazing at her EC's (she is a successful hospital chemist), her stats tell me she has about a 1% of chance of being accepted. She won't even consider DO, where I think her chance is actually ok. People are crazy.

I'll tell you one thing.

I bet its a lot easier to be a podiatric foot and ankle surgeon working with orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons doing similar things, than it is for someone to trust the islands to get them there. I would say its even a lot safer than the DO route to orthopedic surgery if foot and ankle surgery is really one's goal.

It would be understandable if the OP simply hated foot and ankle surgery and wanted to apply else where, but he actually likes it, and still doesn't consider DPM.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

After reading these forums, I'm convinced people care about prestige 80+% of time. I have a friend right now that only applied MD, and while she is amazing at her EC's (she is a successful hospital chemist), her stats tell me she has about a 1% of chance of being accepted. She won't even consider DO, where I think her chance is actually ok. People are crazy.

I'll tell you one thing.

I bet its a lot easier to be a podiatric foot and ankle surgeon working with orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons doing similar things, than it is for someone to trust the islands to get them there. I would say its even a lot safer than the DO route to orthopedic surgery if foot and ankle surgery is really one's goal.

It would be understandable if the OP simply hated foot and ankle surgery and wanted to apply else where, but he actually likes it, and still doesn't consider DPM.

Podiatry tops out 200k by working like a dog while an ortho doc tops out at 1 mil working like a doc.

I know of a ortho doc in town that brings home 1 mil after taxes and deduction. The guy works like crazy though.

Most of the bs salaries in medscape are really on the low end. The more probable number is 2x of Medscape number.

 

[Robin-jay]

Podiatry tops out 200k by working like a dog while an ortho doc tops out at 1 mil working like a doc.

Pods don't top out at 200k.

20% of Pods make more than 250k. (officially AACPM stats from 2016), so about 30-35% make more than 200k.

considering 60% or so DO students go into primary care, the amount of pods doing better than those in primary care is more than you think.

The bottom hurts though for pods, 30% full time pods or so make less than 200k.

No one is saying orthopods don't do better.

 

[VincentAdultman]

I really want to go into orthopedic surgery and one of my friends told me he would get in contact with one of the research directors who put him on almost 8 different publications, so I feel pretty confident in regards to connections.

Classic.

 

[bizdr]

Hi Guys,

I'm a future first year medical student that will be attending Ross University in Dominica. I had a few questions in regards to residency and my chances at top residencies.

I know it's very competitive for foreign medical students to obtain residency in the states but I know its also possible. Some things about me include MCAT score of 515 and a 2.8 GPA. I was going through a lot of personal issues during undergrad which really took a toll on me mentally and had a detrimental effect on my academics. I however did have some time to thoroughly grind out some time to study for my MCAT and scored pretty well, so do know I have the capability to become a successful medical student when I can truly apply myself. Like I said I know it's very competitive for top-tier residences such as derm, gen surg, and neuro, but I have no other intention in these upcoming 4 years besides to pledge my absolute and complete effort into at the minimum being competitive for top tier residencies at at least mid-level programs. Realistically I know I would at least need a step score of at least 250 to even take a peak at my application. I'm wondering what else I would need to focus on and how I should plan out my summers in regards to research and other parts of my application that would allow me to stand out? Thanks again for reading this and all your input!

This was a few years ago, but all my friends (myself included) who went to Caribbean schools got residencies. Some had to do a prelim Surg PGY-1, some had to go to a rural location for IM or FM, or a prelim IM or Transitional spot. But it worked out for all of us who did well enough in school, rotations and the boards (220+). Just work hard, make connections during your rotations in the US and don't stress out too much about not matching.

 

[VincentAdultman]

This was a few years ago, but all my friends (myself included) who went to Caribbean schools got residencies. Some had to do a prelim Surg PGY-1, some had to go to a rural location for IM or FM, or a prelim IM or Transitional spot. But it worked out for all of us who did well enough in school, rotations and the boards (220+). Just work hard, make connections during your rotations in the US and don't stress out too much about not matching.

I'm actually more concerned about his insight and maturity.

He's afraid of burnout if he tries to go for an SMP but he's ready to begin the most rigorous academic years of his life in another country followed by arranging for rotations stateside that may or may not fall through at the last minute followed by at least one but proabably more years of clinical research without being assure that there will be a residency spot at the end of the tunnel.

He doesn't want medicine to dominate his life. But hes sure he wants to go into a surgical specialty where 12 plus hour days and weekend call are the norm.

He talks about his "connections" for research when EVERYONE who wants to go into ortho (US and IMG) has a connection that they know they can leverage into a spot.

I mean...good luck?

 

[Weirdy]

I’m surprised nobody mentioned this sooner.

Even the smaller DPM schools will salivate over that MCAT score, even with a 2.8 GPA. This gives the OP a chance to do surgery on the foot and ankle. Prolly the closest thing to an Ortho surgeon he will get. National pod match rates this year were close to 100%, so much less risky then Caribbean.

OP won't make it through the curriculum.

Standardized testing might not be a problem.

Ego and motivation will.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

20% of Pods make more than 250k. (officially AACPM stats from 2016), so about 30-35% make more than 200k.

considering 60% or so DO students go into primary care, the amount of pods doing better than those in primary care is more than you think.

The second statement is very misleading. 250k is extremely doable in FM. I literally had dinner the other night with an IM resident going into hospitalist work (possible from essentially any IM residency) and is fielding multiple job offers for 300+.

Podiatry is cool if you like feet and want a guaranteed job doing some form of bone surgery, but it’s very misleading to say that there is a high number of pods making more than PC docs. It’s definitely possible to make about the same as a PC doc, but it’s pretty rare for a pod to make more than that.

 

[rg2o3]

Delete

 

[Robin-jay]

The second statement is very misleading. 250k is extremely doable in FM. I literally had dinner the other night with an IM resident going into hospitalist work (possible from essentially any IM residency) and is fielding multiple job offers for 300+.

It's not misleading. Primary care physicians make more than podiatrists on average. However, here are the stats using AACPM data from 2016.

10% of podiatrists make over 325,000
23% of podiatrists make 250k+
~35% pf podiatrists make 200k+
50% of full time podiatrists make 175k+

My major point is that DPM doesn't lack compensation, but that people still rather choose prestige over other superficial things like money. (obviously patients should really be the backbone of why people are physicians.)

I'd say OP has a higher chance of making 300k as a podiatrist working in foot and ankle surgery, than even coming close to becoming an orthopod by attending the islands.

It’s definitely possible to make about the same as a PC doc, but it’s pretty rare for a pod to make more than that.

25-33% isn't too bad.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

It's not misleading. Primary care physicians on aver make more than podiatrists on average. However, here are the stats using AACPM data from 2016.

10% of podiatrists make over 325,000
23% of podiatrists make 250k+
~35% pf podiatrists make 200k+
50% of full time podiatrists make 175k+

My major point is that DPM doesn't lack compensation, but that people still rather choose prestige over other superficial things like money. (obviously patients should really be the backbone of why people are physicians.)

I'd say OP has a higher chance of making 300k as a podiatrist working in foot and ankle surgery, than even coming close to becoming an orthopod by attending the islands.

Your point is wrong. It’s not a matter of prestige when a MD surgical specialist makes about 3x the money of the podiatrist. It’s called common sense. Sure, there are probably podiatrists cracking 300k a year. But, that person works like a dog. If the same person w/ the same work ethic and lifestyle is a MD specialist, he or she will be bringing home 1 mil.

I’ve talked to a lot of physicians. The numbers that I get off the street are drastically higher than some of the posted numbers on the Internet, which makes sense bc I have been advised to shut my mouth especially on social media, do my thing, and enjoy life. If anything, PCP real wages are the closest to the posted Internet numbers, with many of them still 10-15% higher in real life.

 

[Robin-jay]

Your point is wrong. It’s not a matter of prestige when a MD surgical specialist makes about 3x the money of the podiatrist. It’s called common sense

I just shared some stats with you. I also wasn't looking at a comparison of US MD students vs. Podiatry students. On average, US MD students should make much more, as 2/3rd of MD students specialize past PC.

I was mostly making a comparison relating to the OP's situation.

1. OP says he loves foot and ankle health care
2. OP is thinking about Caribbeans to pursue orthopod
3. OP should consider options other than Caribbeans, because he has <1% chance of orthopod.
4. I gave OP alternatives like DO or in this specific situation, DPM due to his enjoyment of foot/ankle care.
5. I mentioned that roughly 35% of DPMs make 200k+, with top 10% of earners making 325k+.

I've talked to a lot of physicians too. I've also shadowed primary care physicians (both MD and DO), specialties (both MD and DO), and even podiatrists (DPM). Not to mention I also was a medical scribe for various physicians before being accepted.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Typical should I go to the Carribean thread..

1-should I go to the Carribean?
2-DO vs Carribean
3- I know a friend of a friend of a friend of a cousin who matched TP 20 from Carribean
4-reference to charting outcomes
5-reference to Harvard, Brigham, etc
6-no those are FMGs not IMGs
7-MD>>DO man, who are you fooling?
8-should I go to podiatry school?
9- OP still goes to Carribean

 

[Osminog]

Typical should I go to the Carribean thread..

1-should I go to the Carribean?
2-DO vs Carribean
3- I know a friend of a friend of a friend of a cousin who matched TP 20 from Carribean
4-reference to charting outcomes
5-reference to Harvard, Brigham, etc
6-no those are FMGs not IMGs
7-MD>>DO man, who are you fooling?
8-should I go to podiatry school?
9- OP still goes to Carribean

You forgot the part where there’s a circle-jerk of people bashing the Caribbean ad nauseum, trying to one-up each other:

“Why would you even consider the Caribbean, OP? I’d rather go to podiatry school than be a student at SGU!”

“Oh yeah? I’d rather be thrown off of a ten-story building into a pit of starving, rabid hyenas than step foot onto SGU’s campus!”

“Pshhh, it sounds like you guys love the Caribbean. Personally, I’d rather be force-fed my own genitals and buried alive than visit SGU’s admissions website!”

 

[VincentAdultman]

You forgot the part where there’s a circle-jerk of people bashing the Caribbean ad nauseum, trying to one-up each other:

“Why would you even consider the Caribbean, OP? I’d rather go to podiatry school than be a student at SGU!”

“Oh yeah? I’d rather be thrown off of a ten-story building into a pit of starving, rabid hyenas than step foot onto SGU’s campus!”

“Pshhh, it sounds like you guys love the Caribbean. Personally, I’d rather be force-fed my own genitals and buried alive than visit SGU’s admissions website!”

I mean I’m not going to mutilate myself but yeah I would probably think about maybe switching careers, go into accounting, maybe wait tables at Olive Garden before going to St George.

 

[Goro]

Typical should I go to the Carribean thread..

1-should I go to the Carribean?
2-DO vs Carribean
3- I know a friend of a friend of a friend of a cousin who matched TP 20 from Carribean
4-reference to charting outcomes
5-reference to Harvard, Brigham, etc
6-no those are FMGs not IMGs
7-MD>>DO man, who are you fooling?
8-should I go to podiatry school?
9- OP still goes to Carribean

You left out:
10) OP posts a year later: "Help! Failing out of Caribbean school X; should I transfer to Caribbean school Y?"
Variant of 10 but four years later: "Help! Failed to match! What are my next steps?"

Yeah, I know, fish in a barrel.

 

[GypsyHummus]

And then the finish, “ carribean grad and took me 7 tries to match into South Dakota Family Med. Hard road but sooooo worth it. If I can do it, you can too!!”

And then more people sign up for the islands thinking they can live the life too.

You left out:
10) OP posts a year later: "Help! Failing out of Caribbean school X; should I transfer to Caribbean school Y?"
Variant of 10 but four years later: "Help! Failed to match! What are my next steps?"

Yeah, I know, fish in a barrel.

 

[altblue]

You forgot the part where there’s a circle-jerk of people bashing the Caribbean ad nauseum, trying to one-up each other:

“Why would you even consider the Caribbean, OP? I’d rather go to podiatry school than be a student at SGU!”

“Oh yeah? I’d rather be thrown off of a ten-story building into a pit of starving, rabid hyenas than step foot onto SGU’s campus!”

“Pshhh, it sounds like you guys love the Caribbean. Personally, I’d rather be force-fed my own genitals and buried alive than visit SGU’s admissions website!”

I don't see the problem here