Top Residency For Carribean Students

[hallowmann]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Hi Guys,

I'm a future first year medical student that will be attending Ross University in Dominica. I had a few questions in regards to residency and my chances at top residencies.

I know it's very competitive for foreign medical students to obtain residency in the states but I know its also possible. Some things about me include MCAT score of 515 and a 2.8 GPA. I was going through a lot of personal issues during undergrad which really took a toll on me mentally and had a detrimental effect on my academics. I however did have some time to thoroughly grind out some time to study for my MCAT and scored pretty well, so do know I have the capability to become a successful medical student when I can truly apply myself. Like I said I know it's very competitive for top-tier residences such as derm, gen surg, and neuro, but I have no other intention in these upcoming 4 years besides to pledge my absolute and complete effort into at the minimum being competitive for top tier residencies at at least mid-level programs. Realistically I know I would at least need a step score of at least 250 to even take a peak at my application. I'm wondering what else I would need to focus on and how I should plan out my summers in regards to research and other parts of my application that would allow me to stand out? Thanks again for reading this and all your input!

If you truly want to be successful and accomplish something like Ortho, you need to stop. Take a step back. Reassess your situation. You will be much more likely to accomplish that goal as a US MD graduate. You need to know this.

Honestly, a post-bacc or SMP.

This is what you need to do. OP, your issue is only your GPA. That will take time, but if you go to a program with linkage, you actually have a shot of going US MD.

Actually with the new merger it would make it an opening playing field for all residencies, meaning DO's wont get the residencies that are only allocated to them.

To be honest I don't want to wait another year and do a post-bacc I just want to start over with my life and far away from my current situation as possible, I don't have the mental capacitance to deal with it anymore and I know if I stay I will eventually end up burning out and losing my mind. I know a good amount of Caribbean students that matched into mid-upper residencies just not at top tier programs. I also have a few friends in the states that have research lined up for me. I really want to go into orthopedic surgery and one of my friends told me he would get in contact with one of the research directors who put him on almost 8 different publications, so I feel pretty confident in regards to connections. Just looking for other small tips and tricks I can implement.

I can't post links here but the residency match list for AUC and Ross are pretty decent.
Obviously they have accredited hospitals which allow some residencies to be much easier to qualify for but not to sound arrogant I have absolutely no intention on being mediocre or being complacent

Said everyone who ever entered medical school, yet the majority will be in that boat by the end of it.

You're making a mistake. You will NOT be saving time going to the Caribbean. You will have setbacks, you will have delays in starting rotations, you will have dropped rotations, and you'll even have natural disasters. I know a number of successful Carib IMGs that finished off-cycle, 4.5 yrs (which really means 5 yrs because the match runs annually), 5 yrs, or 6yrs later. Let alone the issues with ECFMG certification delays. Again, this is a mistake.

If you cannot muster enough mental capacity to put in more work on the front end to have a much better (read: >0.5%, if that) chance of accomplishing what you want, what honestly makes you think adjusting to life on an island, cutoff from the mainland, while simultaneously starting at a school, which like all med schools, has a grueling curriculum is something you can really handle right now?

The Carib will be there for 1-2 yrs, you don't need to rush this. Its worth it to try to get into a linkage SMP/post-bac and actually attempt becoming a US MD. It'll be hard enough applying Ortho as a US MD, but at least you'll be maximizing your chances. If you really just want to distance yourself from your current baggage, find a program in another state.

Lawper is not an IMG apologist. If you look at the PD survey, there are PDs that do prefer IMGs over DO... these tend to be in some of the more competitive specialties. But overall, the most IMG friendly residencies are in:
Neurology
Psychiatry
Pathology
Family Medicine
Internal Medicine

Gee, just like for DOs!

But overall, the environment is far better for DOs than MDs.

DOs do pretty well in EM, PM&R, Anesthesia, and Peds also, which, minus maybe EM, are not competitive fields and relatively IMG friendly.

... It seems like the AACOM was able to convince the AGME to merge all the residencies putting DOs and MDs closer and closer...

Its actually the ACGME that initially pushed the merger, not AACOM or the DO associations. There was a pretty big subset of DOs opposing this, and it resulted in it being initially withdrawn, but then with some edits was subsequently agreed upon, to many of the establishment DOs' chagrin.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

Its actually the ACGME that initially pushed the merger, not AACOM or the DO associations.

Haha! The MDs opened the door for the DOs... Kill that Caribbean horse!

 

[Dwan]

The wikipedia article for "international medical graduate" makes it sound like they are trying to get rid of the term "FMG", so maybe you are grammatically correct here. But in this context it's extremely misleading to lump non-US-IMG's (what most of the Hopkins cardiology fellows are) in with US-IMG's (what OP from this thread would be).

It's not misleading when I shared the link clearly showing majority non-US IMGs (which by the way does have 1 Ross graduate). Did you not read the posts above discussing US IMG vs non-US IMG vs DO? My post stated that one major reason for this was research which is not realistically attainable by most normal students. Hence, going to Ross and expecting to match like the foreign IMGs is not realistic.

 

[Gurby]

There are a lot of IMGs at the top IM programs that don't take DOs, particularly among the fellowships. I think a big reason for this is they tend to have insane amounts of research (compared to typical US graduates).
Cardiology Fellows

It's not misleading when I shared the link clearly showing majority non-US IMGs (which by the way does have 1 Ross graduate). Did you not read the posts above discussing US IMG vs non-US IMG vs DO? My post stated that one major reason for this was research which is not realistically attainable by most normal students. Hence, going to Ross and expecting to match like the foreign IMGs is not realistic.

It's unreasonable to expect anyone to dedicate minutes of their life to click that link and scroll through 50 profiles to see whether you're talking about US-IMG's or non-US-IMG's, especially when most people would just use the term FMG ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Dwan]

It's unreasonable to expect anyone to dedicate minutes of their life to click that link and scroll through 50 profiles to see whether you're talking about US-IMG's or non-US-IMG's, especially when most people would just use the term FMG ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This whole thread has been using the term IMG. Read the posts above mine.

 

[Gurby]

This whole thread has been using the term IMG. Read the posts above mine.

 

[DokterMom]

Matching into ortho is like trying to win a marathon.

There's a marathon starting in five minutes. You can join right in and take your shot.

Or you can wait. Train. Get yourself some good running shoes. Build some endurance. Manage your diet. THEN choose your race and give it your best shot with a decent chance of winning.


STARTING sooner does not, in this case, mean finishing sooner. And it almost certainly means torpedoing your chances of reaching your goal.

 

[Lawpy]

This thread needs more @OrthoTraumaMD

 

[Med Ed]

This thread needs more @OrthoTraumaMD

That may be who you want, but at best you'll get FM+SportsMedicineMD or PM&RMD.

 

[libertyyne]

That may be who you want, but at best you'll get FM+SportsMedicineMD or PM&RMD.

lol, even getting advice as a Caribbean student is subpar.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Going to the carib for an MD is a risk. Ross is a decent school, so the risk is less. But somewhere between 20-30% of students fail out, and you don't get your tuition back.

Going to the carib for ortho is an enormous risk. Very, very few people get spots. And getting a spot might require several years of research (along with a top performance), which (somewhat) negates your comment that you're not willing to wait and just want to get started. Also, remember that if you do 7 ortho projects and then apply to ortho and something else for backup, the backup field might see your 7 ortho projects and decide to pass on your application figuring you're not really interested.

You mentioned somewhere in the thread the idea of doing a TY to make you more competitive. That's a terrible idea. First of all, I'm not convinced that ortho programs will see a TY as a plus. Second, you'd be applying for ortho spots in the middle of your TY year -- it's a job, do you think they are just going to give you days off to travel and interview? And if your answer is "I'll use vacation", good luck getting your interviews to all line up in 2 or 3 weeks, and who says you'll even get a rotation that allows vacation during interview season? Third, when you apply to ortho in Sept of your TY year, the best LOR you're going to get is that SportsMed23 seems like a good early intern.

If you go to the Carib, you need to do so with the mind set that you're going to be in IM, FM, Psych, or Neurology. Do well, and EM, Rads, Anesthesia, and GS become possibilities. Any stumbles on the way and community IM and FM are going to be your only options. Ortho, ENT, Derm are all like winning the lottery -- plan for those and you're very likely to be disappointed.

I don't usually suggest the Mil $ mistake blog to carib applicants, but it's a perfect read for you because he ended up miserable following this same path - "If I do well enough, I'm sure some Ortho program will consider me". And then none did, and no good IM program would consider him either because his application was so ortho focused.

 

[atomi]

He won't get a TY year. I was a grad from a top US MD school and I couldn't even get a TY interview. Those programs go to kids with 250+ step 1 scores from top schools going into derm. Literally everyone applying to a competitive specialty that requires a preliminary year applies to them. Why in the world would they rank a Caribbean grad when they've got a list a mile long of top US MD students?

 

[raiderette]

OP, please find a way to show excellence before medical school. With your MCAT, you should be able to get into an SMP program, possibly with linkeage option. You have had family issues, and you now have a track record that shows you don't react well to outside pressure. SMP would show that you have matured.

 

[Robin-jay]

Hi Guys,

I'm a future first year medical student that will be attending Ross University in Dominica. I had a few questions in regards to residency and my chances at top residencies.

I know it's very competitive for foreign medical students to obtain residency in the states but I know its also possible. Some things about me include MCAT score of 515 and a 2.8 GPA. I was going through a lot of personal issues during undergrad which really took a toll on me mentally and had a detrimental effect on my academics. I however did have some time to thoroughly grind out some time to study for my MCAT and scored pretty well, so do know I have the capability to become a successful medical student when I can truly apply myself. Like I said I know it's very competitive for top-tier residences such as derm, gen surg, and neuro, but I have no other intention in these upcoming 4 years besides to pledge my absolute and complete effort into at the minimum being competitive for top tier residencies at at least mid-level programs. Realistically I know I would at least need a step score of at least 250 to even take a peak at my application. I'm wondering what else I would need to focus on and how I should plan out my summers in regards to research and other parts of my application that would allow me to stand out? Thanks again for reading this and all your input!

OP seems interested in working as a foot and ankle surgeon. Go DPM, as you have a 99-100% chance at matching, and a high chance of doing well enough for surgery at a podiatry school with a 515 MCAT.

As a caribbean grad., your chances are infinitely less of being able to do lower extremity surgeries than if you went to podiatry school.

But those MD symbols are way better than DO or DPM symbols right?

 

[raiderette]

OP seems interested in working as a foot and ankle surgeon. Go DPM, as you have a 99-100% chance at matching, and a high chance of doing well enough for surgery at a podiatry school with a 515 MCAT.

As a caribbean grad., your chances are infinitely less of being able to do lower extremity surgeries than if you went to podiatry school.

But those MD symbols are way better than DO or DPM symbols right?

DPM would be perfect.

 

[de Ribas]

But somewhere between 20-30% of students fail out, and you don't get your tuition back.

Do they at least cover your return flight ticket?

 

[QueenJames]

Jesus christ.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That may be who you want, but at best you'll get FM+SportsMedicineMD or PM&RMD.

Quality burn.

 

[SportsMed23]

An undergrad GPA of 2.8 combined with your demonstrated attitude to want to do things the quick and easy way suggest that you do not have the study skills and willpower to succeed in medical school. You are at a very high risk for failing out, let alone passing the USMLE, again let alone matching to residency, and again let alone a competitive residency. Caribbean medical schools have a tendancy to string students along who have little chance of obtaining residency or even passing the USMLE, making them repeat classes/years, etc. to suck more tuition money out of them. You may spend a few years though before they dismiss you and you find yourself back in the states with no degree, no residency, a ruined educational record (i.e., no chance to ever try again properly in the US when you are older and smarter), and owing $200k or more than will accrue interest for the rest of your life that you will never be able to pay back.

If mom and dad are paying for it all and you don't care about setting their money on fire, sure go nuts.
If you're borrowing, please bookmark this thread and come back and post in 4 years and let us know how it worked out.

AUC has had 2 Optho, 2 Derm, and 1 Vascular surgery residency matches in the past 2 years. Granted they're not the most amazing programs and it was out of a total of almost 550 students that matched but this general myth of not getting residency from Caribbean schools is totally false. 85% of students from the top 3 schools (SGU, ROSS, AUC) match, even though about 75% is IM/FM, they still match. AUC in particular is slowly starting to get recognition and starting to have students match into higher specialties. I don't care if where I match into, I'm just shooting for Ortho and I know what it will take to achieve that and that's something I am willing to fight for. Like I said I already have research/publications lined up and I know there was study done between MCAT and STEP 1 scores which showed a positive correlation between the two and I don't doubt my test taking or cognitive abilities at all. I know I'll need some luck but like I said I'm confident that this something I am capable of achieving, I'll update you guys in 4 years, thanks for all your input though.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

AUC has had 2 Optho, 2 Derm, and 1 Vascular surgery residency matches in the past 2 years. Granted they're not the most amazing programs and it was out of a total of almost 550 students that matched but this general myth of not getting residency from Caribbean schools is totally false. 85% of students from the top 3 schools (SGU, ROSS, AUC) match, even though about 75% is IM/FM, they still match. AUC in particular is slowly starting to get recognition and starting to have students match into higher specialties. I don't care if where I match into, I'm just shooting for Ortho and I know what it will take to achieve that and that's something I am willing to fight for. Like I said I already have research/publications lined up and I know there was study done between MCAT and STEP 1 scores which showed a positive correlation between the two and I don't doubt my test taking or cognitive abilities at all. I know I'll need some luck but like I said I'm confident that this something I am capable of achieving, I'll update you guys in 4 years, thanks for all your input though.

So basically, you came to this forum hoping for some confirmation bias, and when you didn't get it, you said **** y'all, I do what I want and are going to peace out to the islands.

The numbers you gave for those specialties out of that number of students completely contradicts your claim that the "myth" of not matching is false. How many people applied to those specialties who didn't match? How many applied and didn't even get interviews, so they had to enter the match under a different specialty? How many didn't even make it to the match because they were failed out for not passing the mock step exams? Etc. etc. This idea that 85% of students from the Carib match is ludicrous. Out of 550 students, that means 0.18% of students matched into vascular surgery. What makes you think that you're going to be that one person (substitute ortho for vascular if that's your flavor, because I'm sure the numbers are similar)? Here's a hint: you're probably not.

Here's another tip. You got a 515. That's an excellent MCAT score. You clearly have what it takes to rock an SMP or a 1-year postbacc and get into an actual USMD or a DO school and have a significantly higher chance of matching into whatever specialty you want. That takes maturity and humility to admit that maybe you're not quite ready yet and need to prove yourself a little more. Are you mature enough to admit that? Based on this post, that's a no.

So good luck in the carib. I really hope you get all the way through, defy the odds, and come back here in four years to tell us all that you were right and matched into ortho. Unfortunately, I think it's more likely that you'll be posting in a year or two asking for help because your school is either kicking you out or ****ing you over in some way, and then in a few years after that you'll be posting asking for help because you realize your chances of matching ortho are pretty much zilch. I pray I'm wrong.

 

[Med Ed]

I'll update you guys in 4 years, thanks for all your input though.

Please don't wait that long. Do annual updates, at least.

 

[SportsMed23]

So basically, you came to this forum hoping for some confirmation bias, and when you didn't get it, you said **** y'all, I do what I want and are going to peace out to the islands.

The numbers you gave for those specialties out of that number of students completely contradicts your claim that the "myth" of not matching is false. How many people applied to those specialties who didn't match? How many applied and didn't even get interviews, so they had to enter the match under a different specialty? How many didn't even make it to the match because they were failed out for not passing the mock step exams? Etc. etc. This idea that 85% of students from the Carib match is ludicrous. Out of 550 students, that means 0.18% of students matched into vascular surgery. What makes you think that you're going to be that one person (substitute ortho for vascular if that's your flavor, because I'm sure the numbers are similar)? Here's a hint: you're probably not.

Here's another tip. You got a 515. That's an excellent MCAT score. You clearly have what it takes to rock an SMP or a 1-year postbacc and get into an actual USMD or a DO school and have a significantly higher chance of matching into whatever specialty you want. That takes maturity and humility to admit that maybe you're not quite ready yet and need to prove yourself a little more. Are you mature enough to admit that? Based on this post, that's a no.

So good luck in the carib. I really hope you get all the way through, defy the odds, and come back here in four years to tell us all that you were right and matched into ortho. Unfortunately, I think it's more likely that you'll be posting in a year or two asking for help because your school is either kicking you out or ****ing you over in some way, and then in a few years after that you'll be posting asking for help because you realize your chances of matching ortho are pretty much zilch. I pray I'm wrong.

I was talking about the myth of not getting residency in general by going to a Caribbean school. You're so caught up in being condescending that you couldn't even pick up on that because I did state my chances are slim right after that statement. You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

 

[SportsMed23]

Please don't wait that long. Do annual updates, at least.

Well here's one, I already started going over the microbio section in First Aide and already downloaded firecracker. One of my friends who recently took it is going to sit down with me and construct a plan beginning when I start M1. I'm trying to make a study plan that will go along with my classes.

 

[rg2o3]

I was talking about the myth of not getting residency in general by going to a Caribbean school. You're so caught up in being condescending that you couldn't even pick up on that because I did state my chances are slim right after that statement. You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

I’m going into first year at a DO school becuse I’m 26 turning 27 and didn’t want to wait to apply a cycle of MD. However, that’s because I’m okay with being FM if need be. With that, I would choose an entirely different career before risking 300K at a Carib school. I think you should strongly reconsider. One more year won’t change your life that much, trust me.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

OMG this pic! Why have I not seen this O.O it's beautiful.

 

[kelminak]

I was talking about the myth of not getting residency in general by going to a Caribbean school. You're so caught up in being condescending that you couldn't even pick up on that because I did state my chances are slim right after that statement. You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

I had a <3.0 GPA at 26, just finished my post-bacc and will matriculate to a DO school at a month before 27. Did I waste my time and should have gone Carib MD instead? Radiology (my goal) might have enough spots now for Carib students (Carib students are only at ~2-3% disadvantage atm), but what happens post-merger when all of the AOA applicants now are in the pool too? Or the competition continues to heat up and more and more start applying? I would kick myself for lowering my chances at my goal.

1 year post-bacc to stay stateside vs. years of research at an institution to prove that the Carib MD is a fluke and you really belong in the ortho club. You're not looking at the big picture at all. Your MCAT is so good too, it's painful to see you blow it away by going Carib. Then again, that's exactly who they prey on: people who have one redeeming aspect and won't wait any longer.

I don't have any doubt you could become a physician at Ross. I have the strongest doubts you could get an ortho residency. I'd hate to see you shoot your dreams down before you even get in the door.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don't care if where I match into, I'm just shooting for Ortho and I know what it will take to achieve that and that's something I am willing to fight for.

No you don’t. You haven’t the slightest clue. The last post I am going to quote is going to show that. You are going to need multiple research years just to even get the chance to interview at 1 ortho program, ultimately you won’t match ortho.

I know I'll need some luck but like I said I'm confident that this something I am capable of achieving, I'll update you guys in 4 years, thanks for all your input though.

Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

You are in for a rather rude awakening. Like the life shattering kind of awakening. Your immaturity shown in this thread is proof you are going to fail miserably at this endeavor.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Just curious OP, did you read the million dollar mistake in my previous post?

Do you realize that you’re going to be literally living in a third world country for two years and there is a significant lack of transparency with Carib schools? It’s not against the law for them to lie about your chances for success, the actual amount of debt you’ll go into, the living conditions, etc.

It’s terribly expensive. Even with the added cost of an smp, you’d still have less debt than Carib by attending most US MD/DO schools. There is an argument to be made about losing a year of physician salary, but does that matter when you’re not doing what you want?

You’re pointing out a handful of matches as evidence for your argument that you can do it, too. Everyone thinks they’ll be the exception that proves the rule when they’re young and naive. It takes maturity to admit to oneself that they most likely are the rule. You’re inability to see this coupled with you’re impulsiveness demonstrates a lack of maturity. You have a clear path to success that doesn’t involve more debt or living in a third world country but you’re too impatient.

If you’re just definitely gonna rock med school so hard then you should absolutely be able to crush an smp? Are you afraid you won’t succeed?

I don’t mean this as an attack and I’m sorry if it’s coming off that way. I’m just trying to point out that this impulsive behavior is what these schools prey on. You have the potential to do this correctly with great results, but you’re getting in your own way.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Literally this OP is the Million Dollar Mistake guy all over again. OP that guy had a 260+ and lots of research and he didn’t even get a handful of interviews. That guy was perfect for ortho on paper and he didn’t get it. You won’t be doing anything like ortho if you go to the islands.

 

[Dwan]

Literally this OP is the Million Dollar Mistake guy all over again. OP that guy had a 260+ and lots of research and he didn’t even get a handful of interviews. That guy was perfect for ortho on paper and he didn’t get it. You won’t be doing anything like ortho if you go to the islands.

Plus, the odds are extremely low the OP would get a 260+, or even 250+, even based solely off the 515 MCAT... The OP can hope they do a lot better on the Step than the MCAT (it happens), but I don't see how their past performance is any indication of being capable of matching ortho from the carrib (as OP seems to believe).

 

[Snoopy2006]

Not worth arguing. I've seen enough of these posts. The lure of the Caribbean is really hard to overcome for a lot of people.

Please do update us every couple years or so. Most of these posters ignore the forum's advice and then are never heard from again. If you do well, I'm sure you'll want to let everyone know. But if you do poorly, I hope you'll consider posting as a future warning to prevent others from making the same mistake. It would also be helpful to hear about details occasionally - for e.g., how many in your class made it to clinical rotations, what % of your class was allowed to sit for Step 1, anything you wish you'd known in advance. Best of luck friend.

 

[Goro]

AUC has had 2 Optho, 2 Derm, and 1 Vascular surgery residency matches in the past 2 years. Granted they're not the most amazing programs and it was out of a total of almost 550 students that matched but this general myth of not getting residency from Caribbean schools is totally false. 85% of students from the top 3 schools (SGU, ROSS, AUC) match, even though about 75% is IM/FM, they still match. AUC in particular is slowly starting to get recognition and starting to have students match into higher specialties. I don't care if where I match into, I'm just shooting for Ortho and I know what it will take to achieve that and that's something I am willing to fight for. Like I said I already have research/publications lined up and I know there was study done between MCAT and STEP 1 scores which showed a positive correlation between the two and I don't doubt my test taking or cognitive abilities at all. I know I'll need some luck but like I said I'm confident that this something I am capable of achieving, I'll update you guys in 4 years, thanks for all your input though.

Magic thinking in action, folks

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I was talking about the myth of not getting residency in general by going to a Caribbean school. You're so caught up in being condescending that you couldn't even pick up on that because I did state my chances are slim right after that statement. You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

It is not condescending to point out the facts that you are too blinded by your impatience to see. And FYI, all the attendings that are being pointed out on this thread graduated from Carib schools many moons ago. Things are different now and will be worse for IMGs very soon.

 

[Med Ed]

Visit any of the hospital websites in Miami, Physician directory pages, and click on names of physicians. Many graduated from lesser schools than Ross.

• Mt Sinai Medical Center, Miami Beach
• Jackson Memorial Hospital, Miami
• Baptist Health, Miami
• Florida International University SOM
• Mercy Hospital, Miami

too many board certified physicians to list who graduated from Carib medical schools, but Dr Pedro Greer (to name one) is a great role model to keep in mind. He is a great guy, and President Obama agreed as well (Medal of Freedom

Dr. Greer attended a private Roman Catholic university in the Dominican Republic. When people talk about Carib medical schools in this context they are referring to a collection of for-profit entities designed largely to suck money out of the US financial aid system.

So I took your challenge and started with Mt. Sinai's orthopedic docs. Here are their medical schools: Cincinnati, Columbia, UT-San Antonio, SUNY Stony Brook, Stanford, NYMC, Miami, Cornell, USC.

When do I get to the ones below Ross?

 

[DokterMom]

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

I think you've got what it takes to do well in medical school - even in the Caribbean. So let's just say you're unlikely to be one of the [many] matriculants that gets weeded out for poor academics. And let's further stipulate that with the research connections you've already got lined up, you are able to defy the odds and get ortho research projects and even a publication or two. And let's even go so far as to say that since you're a good test-taker, you do well enough on your STEPs to be 'above average' for ortho applicants.

If you were to do all that at a USMD school (any of them), your odds of matching into ortho would be really strong -- >85%.

The trouble with your plan is that even if YOU succeed in all of the above measures, things that are outside your control can torpedo your chances, and the only time you find that out will be 3.5 years and $250,000.00 into it and your backup options at that point will be really limited and sub-par and involve waiting another year (the whole point of going Caribbean - right?) and/or matching into a specialty you don't want.

It's not like you'll be able to just transfer to another medical school...

Also gotta say -- do you know how young 25 is?! 27 even? You won't be the oldest in your class by a long shot.

 

[mimelim]

USMD >>> FMG >> DO >>>>> IMG

All other things being equal, this is approximately how I would look at the schools that people went to. I don't have anything against DO candidates, but purely from a statistical perspective, they are not going to be as strong as USMD. The problem with FMG/DO is that there is a huge range of what you can potentially get in terms of applicant. High scores don't mean a ton because there are plenty of people with high scores that you would never want anywhere near your program or to waste an interview spot on. If someone is FMG/DO/IMG and they want a shot at our program, they should be doing an away with us. You demonstrate that you are a rockstar in person, excluding some coastal 'prestige matters more than substance' programs, the biases will disappear.

I have, like many, my own biases. In particular, I have a very negative impression of the graduates of the Caribbean medical schools. I have met a couple that I would say were fine, but they are the exception, not the rule. *shrug*

 

[deleted87051]

OP needs to ask the medical school for a list of all alumni who are practicing orthopedic surgeons in the United States. It will be a very short list.

 

[Goro]

OP needs to ask the medical school for a list of all alumni who are practicing orthopedic surgeons in the United States. It will be a very short list.

That will still have ZERO impression on the the OP.

 

[mwsapphire]

USMD >>> FMG >> DO >>>>> IMG

All other things being equal, this is approximately how I would look at the schools that people went to. I don't have anything against DO candidates, but purely from a statistical perspective, they are not going to be as strong as USMD. The problem with FMG/DO is that there is a huge range of what you can potentially get in terms of applicant. High scores don't mean a ton because there are plenty of people with high scores that you would never want anywhere near your program or to waste an interview spot on. If someone is FMG/DO/IMG and they want a shot at our program, they should be doing an away with us. You demonstrate that you are a rockstar in person, excluding some coastal 'prestige matters more than substance' programs, the biases will disappear.

I have, like many, my own biases. In particular, I have a very negative impression of the graduates of the Caribbean medical schools. I have met a couple that I would say were fine, but they are the exception, not the rule. *shrug*

Shouldn't DO be about the same as FMG? Is there any reason you prefer FMG to DO?

 

[Rekt]

Shouldn't DO be about the same as FMG? Is there any reason you prefer FMG to DO?

Because they've already gone through residencies/training in their own country. The FMGs would theoretically be better than MDs as well, but it's just more pretentious circle jerking, so they're not as good because "MD" is the superior race.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Because they've already gone through residencies/training in their own country. The FMGs would theoretically be better than MDs as well, but it's just more pretentious circle jerking, so they're not as good because "MD" is the superior race.

Or maybe it’s because FMGs can be hit or miss since it accounts for pretty much any med school outside of the us and the Carib, meaning that many come from crap schools, while USMD schools are more or less standardized. It could also be because USMD schools provide the best education to practice in the US and going school somewhere else does not. Or you know, any of the reasons why it is preferable to go to school at an MD school in the US if you want to practice here.

 

[Rekt]

Or maybe it’s because FMGs can be hit or miss since it accounts for pretty much any med school outside of the us and the Carib, meaning that many come from crap schools, while USMD schools are more or less standardized. It could also be because USMD schools provide the best education to practice in the US and going school somewhere else does not. Or you know, any of the reasons why it is preferable to go to school at an MD school in the US if you want to practice here.

Did you even read it? We're talking about FMG vs. DO. Please tell me more about medical school pre-med.

 

[libertyyne]

Because they've already gone through residencies/training in their own country. The FMGs would theoretically be better than MDs as well, but it's just more pretentious circle jerking, so they're not as good because "MD" is the superior race.

I believe a large portion of FMGs are taken straight from medical school, IIRC the likelihood of match goes down drastically for every year since graduation.

The reason is that there are 6 billion people outside of the US, there is a chance you are going to find someone who is an excellent candidate from those schools, just by chance alone there are rockstars in that population. Now obviously there are other hurdles, visa's , cultural impediments etc.

 

[de Ribas]

I believe a large portion of FMGs are taken straight from medical school, IIRC the likelihood of match goes down drastically for every year since graduation.

The reason is that there are 6 billion people outside of the US, there is a chance you are going to find someone who is an excellent candidate from those schools, just by chance alone there are rockstars in that population. Now obviously there are other hurdles, visa's , cultural impediments etc.

7

 

[mimelim]

Shouldn't DO be about the same as FMG? Is there any reason you prefer FMG to DO?

No, and it isn't very close. I think the explanation is simple and logical to be honest.

The title 'FMG' encompasses a huge number of students. After all, it covers every non-US citizen grad of every medical school in the world. But, the reality is that while the number of students is extremely high, the number that apply to the US is relatively small. On average, they are the stronger students from those schools outside the US. Contrary to popular belief among US medical students and Americans in general, there are a lot of smart, extremely capable people living and training outside of the US. The top students oversees can go toe to toe with American students. Thus, within the pool of 'FMGs', there are a lot of extremely good applicants. You can not say that about DO. Yes, those that apply to the competitive residencies are likewise self selective, but it simply is not the same as the USMD pool that you are pulling from.

Now, there are two large caveats. #1 Training outside of the US is not nearly as uniform or strong. Thus, the further people get, the more you have to be wary about their credentials. I've seen 'fully trained' surgeons that do not have the basics of operating (never mind being a resident) covered, mostly a product of their 'full' prior training being essentially shadowing for 4-6 years. That isn't to say that there isn't good training outside of the US, there most certainly is. But, you have to be careful. #2 You can not underestimate cultural and language competence. This also very clearly applies to US MD grads as well, but is far more commonly an issue with FMGs for obvious reasons. Being a physician is more than knowing and applying medicine. You have to interact with people. TONS of people. If you can't do that effectively, you can not be an effective doctor. Part of being a good resident is learning to be efficient, one day at a time. Sometimes the barriers to efficiency aren't easy to overcome, especially if they are language based. A good example? Sarcasm. I've seen the lack of ability to understand sarcasm in English completely tank a young physician trying to work both with colleagues and separately, with patients. You can get a 270 on your steps, but if you lose the respect and confidence of your patients, you are done.

 

[SippyLord]

You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

I was in a similar position as you a while back. I had been out of college for a couple years and I was getting anxious about wasting time. I had a great GPA/MCAT but the rest of my application wasn't quite up to par. I was strongly considering going Caribbean rather than enhancing my application and applying to US schools the next cycle. I convinced myself it would be better to go Caribbean rather than waiting another year. Of course I would beat the odds and obtain a great residency. I am so smart and so much more dedicated to my dream than my future loser classmates...

I'm so glad I got some sense knocked into me. I found SDN and had some frank conversations with physicians. I didn't want to take the advice at first, but I ultimately humbled myself and backed off the ledge. I ended up spending two more years before applying. Along the way I developed a passion for research and finished some work I could really be proud of. I started MD/PhD at 28 and god knows how long I'll be training, but I'm so happy I didn't take the Caribbean route.

To me, maturity in this case means delaying gratification, not rolling the dice on your future just to save a year. Either way, I wish you the best.

 

[Rekt]

No, and it isn't very close. I think the explanation is simple and logical to be honest.

The title 'FMG' encompasses a huge number of students. After all, it covers every non-US citizen grad of every medical school in the world. But, the reality is that while the number of students is extremely high, the number that apply to the US is relatively small. On average, they are the stronger students from those schools outside the US. Contrary to popular belief among US medical students and Americans in general, there are a lot of smart, extremely capable people living and training outside of the US. The top students oversees can go toe to toe with American students. Thus, within the pool of 'FMGs', there are a lot of extremely good applicants. You can not say that about DO. Yes, those that apply to the competitive residencies are likewise self selective, but it simply is not the same as the USMD pool that you are pulling from.

Maybe the view is skewed up on your vascular surgery tower, but the difference I've seen between MDs and DOs is vastly overblown. I just started my third historically ACGME away and there has been almost no difference between the MD students and the small amount of DOs on each. There's the same spectrum I've seen with my DO colleagues. Some MDs can't even answer basic pimp questions and have horrible presentations and some are very good. As far as DOs go, from what I've seen of my colleagues, their board scores at least correlate pretty well with their clinical acumen. As far as patient interaction and personality, I'm not sure how going to an MD school automatically makes you better at that, but okay. Sure, MDs from Harvard, Hopkins, Columbia, whatever, are going to be better than DO students, but they're also going to be better than most MDs too.

But hey, someone has to take MTs place.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I was talking about the myth of not getting residency in general by going to a Caribbean school. You're so caught up in being condescending that you couldn't even pick up on that because I did state my chances are slim right after that statement. You're opinion on my maturity is actually comical because the reason I don't want to do one of those program is because I'm turning 25 and I don't want to waste more time. Hypothetically if I did enroll in those programs I would me a 27 year old M1. I love medicine and I want it to be apart of my life but I don't want it to consume my life entirely not because I'm immature or don't want to prove myself. That MCAT score could get me into majority of medical schools so I do know what I am capable of.

Anyways like I said thank you to everyone for your input I will really take time to digest everything and put out a feasible game plan with backups in mind.

I turn 27 in a week and am starting school next month.. I figure I will be 34 or 35 when I become an attending and will have 30ish years to practice... 2 years is chump change when youre in your 40s or 50s, especially if you do end up doing ortho or a specialty you enjoy because you invested more time into repairing your GPA.

 

[UnoMas]

No, and it isn't very close. I think the explanation is simple and logical to be honest.

The title 'FMG' encompasses a huge number of students. After all, it covers every non-US citizen grad of every medical school in the world. But, the reality is that while the number of students is extremely high, the number that apply to the US is relatively small. On average, they are the stronger students from those schools outside the US. Contrary to popular belief among US medical students and Americans in general, there are a lot of smart, extremely capable people living and training outside of the US. The top students oversees can go toe to toe with American students. Thus, within the pool of 'FMGs', there are a lot of extremely good applicants. You can not say that about DO. Yes, those that apply to the competitive residencies are likewise self selective, but it simply is not the same as the USMD pool that you are pulling from.

Now, there are two large caveats. #1 Training outside of the US is not nearly as uniform or strong. Thus, the further people get, the more you have to be wary about their credentials. I've seen 'fully trained' surgeons that do not have the basics of operating (never mind being a resident) covered, mostly a product of their 'full' prior training being essentially shadowing for 4-6 years. That isn't to say that there isn't good training outside of the US, there most certainly is. But, you have to be careful. #2 You can not underestimate cultural and language competence. This also very clearly applies to US MD grads as well, but is far more commonly an issue with FMGs for obvious reasons. Being a physician is more than knowing and applying medicine. You have to interact with people. TONS of people. If you can't do that effectively, you can not be an effective doctor. Part of being a good resident is learning to be efficient, one day at a time. Sometimes the barriers to efficiency aren't easy to overcome, especially if they are language based. A good example? Sarcasm. I've seen the lack of ability to understand sarcasm in English completely tank a young physician trying to work both with colleagues and separately, with patients. You can get a 270 on your steps, but if you lose the respect and confidence of your patients, you are done.

I would argue the pool for the FMG is about the same if not worse, the good ones that apply to competitive specialties are self-selective, you conveniently left out hundreds if not thousands borderline FMGs that fill community FM, IM, Neurology programs every year. In addition, the FMGs that apply to competitive programs, they usually spend years serving as research slaves at the ivory towers for letters, connections with no student loans to worry about. So yeah 1 year to study for step 1, 2-3 years to do research and publish, of course they would look pretty good on papers.

I have seen 4th year MD/DO students do a better job at presenting and coming up with management plans than a few of my FMG medicine/surgery interns. I am sure they will make fine physicians with all the appropriate training but the students that are trained here in the US get 'with the system' a lot faster than a foreign trained ones who are not familiar with the clinical environment here at all

USMDs are top dogs, we get it but your post sounds a lot like 'not only that my kind is the best, the other must also be the absolute worst'

 

[mimelim]

Maybe the view is skewed up on your vascular surgery tower, but the difference I've seen between MDs and DOs is vastly overblown. I just started my third historically ACGME away and there has been almost no difference between the MD students and the small amount of DOs on each. There's the same spectrum I've seen with my DO colleagues. Some MDs can't even answer basic pimp questions and have horrible presentations and some are very good. As far as DOs go, from what I've seen of my colleagues, their board scores at least correlate pretty well with their clinical acumen. As far as patient interaction and personality, I'm not sure how going to an MD school automatically makes you better at that, but okay. Sure, MDs from Harvard, Hopkins, Columbia, whatever, are going to be better than DO students, but they're also going to be better than most MDs too.

But hey, someone has to take MTs place.

I would argue the pool for the FMG is about the same if not worse, the good ones that apply to competitive specialties are self-selective, you conveniently left out hundreds if not thousands borderline FMGs that fill community FM, IM, Neurology programs every year. In addition, the FMGs that apply to competitive programs, they usually spend years serving as research slaves at the ivory towers for letters, connections with no student loans to worry about. So yeah 1 year to study for step 1, 2-3 years to do research and publish, of course they would look pretty good on papers.

I have seen 4th year MD/DO students do a better job at presenting and coming up with management plans than a few of my FMG medicine/surgery interns. I am sure they will make fine physicians with all the appropriate training but the students that are trained here in the US get 'with the system' a lot faster than a foreign trained ones who are not familiar with the clinical environment here at all

USMDs are top dogs, we get it but your post sounds a lot like 'not only that my kind is the best, the other must also be the absolute worst'

The only thing that USMD over USDO means is that you were a stronger applicant for medical school. On average, it means that your grades were better, your standardized scores were better and your ECs were better. I don't think that that is really disputable. It really says nothing else about the other factors that come into play as far as becoming a good resident or a good physician.

While I certainly don't know the clinical training at all schools across the country, I don't think that most would dispute that the quality of medical education is different, especially in the clinical years. No school is perfect and certainly every school has it's fair share of dud rotations, but there is a gap. Certainly not as large as the IMG to everyone else gap, but it is still there.

I only know applications to a very competitive specialty at one of the larger, more competitive programs. So yes, my commentary should only be applied to discussion of students applying to similar programs. But, I do now have about 5 years worth of experience looking at USMD, USDO, FMG and IMG applications. Given that the bulk of people applying vascular apply to our program, I think that I see a fairly good cross section of those applying to vascular. I didn't 'conveniently' leave anything out. This thread is about "Top residency". I think it is a stupidly inexact term, but given that most people in this thread are treating it as, "competitive programs" or "competitive specialties", I don't think it is particularly relevant how the least competitive programs in the least competitive specialties are filling.