Trouble at KansasCom

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Starr_key said:
When students file a complaint to COCA, is it anonymous? I know for LCME it is not.

Admin is always going to admin. I think I've seen only a few schools where admin truly cares about its students. Kansas COM was just stupidly even more incompetent than your typical admin.
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No, it is not anonymous. Complaints must have the person's full name, and they must be currently affiliated with the school in some way, iirc.

ToKingdomCome said:
Is this going to shut the school down if COCA deems the complaints to be unfixable ?
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So, looking at the COCA policies under Commission Actions... (https://osteopathic.org/index.php?aam-media=/wp-content/uploads/Commission-Actions-Policy.pdf)

In the case of a pre-accreditated school advancing to accreditation, they can award accreditation but with certain comments on the degree with which the COM might not be meeting the standards:
  • Accreditation: This status indicates that a COM is compliant with all standards. However, there may be unmet non-core elements that must be addressed through progress reports. Initial Accreditation is granted for six years. Monitoring is conducted through submission of the COCA annual report; a mid-cycle report is due in the third year of accreditation.
  • Accreditation With Finding: This status indicates that a COM is non-compliant with one standard, including non-compliance with one or more core elements within a standard, requiring ongoing monitoring through progress reports, annual reports, and other activities that the Commission deems appropriate. For COMs with this status, accreditation will be granted for five years. Monitoring is conducted through submission of the COCA annual report; a mid-cycle report is due in the third year of accreditation.
  • Accreditation With Monitoring: This status indicates that a COM is non-compliant with two standards, including non-compliance with one or more core elements within each standard, requiring ongoing monitoring through progress reports, annual reports, and other activities the Commission deems appropriate. For COMs with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years. Monitoring is conducted through submission of the COCA annual report; a mid-cycle report is due in the second year of accreditation.
  • Accreditation With Warning: This status indicates that a COM is non-compliant with more than three but no more than five standards, including non-compliance with one or more core elements within each standard, and that the COM exhibits weaknesses that threaten the program’s quality. Ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reports and any other monitoring the Commission deems appropriate. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for two years. The mid-cycle report will be submitted with the annual report. The Commission will specify the unmet accreditation standard(s) and specify the procedures for monitoring compliance.
  • Accreditation With Probation: This status is granted when a COM is non-compliant with more than five standards, including non-compliance with one or more core elements within each standard, which exhibits serious weaknesses such that the quality of the program is jeopardized. The COCA will specify the unmet accreditation standard(s) and the procedures for monitoring compliance.
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While shutting a COM down is not outside the realm of possibility, I feel like a likely outcome after graduating 2026 is that we will land in either the fourth or fifth category if no changes are made before then, which would make the amount of time accredited before needing needing to renew much shorter, and the school would be more tightly monitored.
 
LSTR said:
No, it is not anonymous. Complaints must have the person's full name, and they must be currently affiliated with the school in some way, iirc.


So, looking at the COCA policies under Commission Actions... (https://osteopathic.org/index.php?aam-media=/wp-content/uploads/Commission-Actions-Policy.pdf)

In the case of a pre-accreditated school advancing to accreditation, they can award accreditation but with certain comments on the degree with which the COM might not be meeting the standards:


While shutting a COM down is not outside the realm of possibility, I feel like a likely outcome after graduating 2026 is that we will land in either the fourth or fifth category if no changes are made before then, which would make the amount of time accredited before needing needing to renew much shorter, and the school would be more tightly monitored.
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COCA low standards are low bar
 
ToKingdomCome said:
Is this going to shut the school down if COCA deems the complaints to be unfixable ?
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They have that power, but I've never seen it applied in my lifetime, for MD or DO schools. Schools would have to be extremely malignant to the point of criminal activity for a school to be shut down.

Receiving the the worst form of accreditation status, that of accreditation with probation, should scare off enough pre-meds who would be willing to apply to the school, that would make the school's Administration or rather the Board of Regents think twice about maintaining the status quo.
 
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LSTR said:
No, it is not anonymous. Complaints must have the person's full name, and they must be currently affiliated with the school in some way, iirc.


So, looking at the COCA policies under Commission Actions... (https://osteopathic.org/index.php?aam-media=/wp-content/uploads/Commission-Actions-Policy.pdf)

In the case of a pre-accreditated school advancing to accreditation, they can award accreditation but with certain comments on the degree with which the COM might not be meeting the standards:


While shutting a COM down is not outside the realm of possibility, I feel like a likely outcome after graduating 2026 is that we will land in either the fourth or fifth category if no changes are made before then, which would make the amount of time accredited before needing needing to renew much shorter, and the school would be more tightly monitored.
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That's what I thought! How likely is it that COCA and/or LCME shares the student's info with the school?

Because I wonder if admin is bitter enough to retaliate against those students.
 
@Goro have you ever seen any lawyer, governing body ever really sanction a school, or it's always just talk that never comes to fruition? Also, at that level, how exactly does a lawyer/governing body override the school; is it a power struggle, shouting match, etc?
 
Dorsey DO said:
@Goro have you ever seen any lawyer, governing body ever really sanction a school, or it's always just talk that never comes to fruition? Also, at that level, how exactly does a lawyer/governing body override the school; is it a power struggle, shouting match, etc?
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A school would sue to keep itself in business rather than get shut down.

In another forum, we're chatting about
news.vin.com

Lincoln Memorial sues AVMA over accreditation

Veterinary school on probation claims conspiracy to reduce competition
news.vin.com news.vin.com
 
Dorsey DO said:
@Goro have you ever seen any lawyer, governing body ever really sanction a school, or it's always just talk that never comes to fruition? Also, at that level, how exactly does a lawyer/governing body override the school; is it a power struggle, shouting match, etc?
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Pharmacy schools have been shut down by accreditors recently, and I remember hearing about a new school that opened some years ago, that was having such troubles with accreditation standards that their accreditors made them stop accepting students for 1-2 years so they could clean up their act.

CNU prepared a teach-out plan in case LCME shut them down.
 
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Starr_key said:
That's what I thought! How likely is it that COCA and/or LCME shares the student's info with the school?

Because I wonder if admin is bitter enough to retaliate against those students.
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The complaints get de-identified. According to the complaint policy (https://osteopathic.org/index.php?aam-media=/wp-content/uploads/Complaint-Policy.pdf):
Names of all individuals identified in the complaint will be redacted prior to
submission to the COM for its response.
Click to expand...

Just like with anything, there's probably some risk in filing a complaint. What's done is done, though.
 
Goro said:
Pharmacy schools have been shut down be accreditors recently, and I remember hearing about a new one that opened some years ago, that was having such troubles with accreditation standards that their accreditors made them stop accepting students for 1-2 years so they could clean up their act.

CNU prepared a teach-out plan in case LCME shut them down.
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They didn’t plan to just hard switch to DO ??? 🤭
 
Welp, the sucking at KansasCOM continues. Mishandling of financial aid disbursements where it’ll be the 2nd or 3rd week before students receive them, being told to forgive ourselves for repeating, and for something all new: being pulled out of second year courses and being placed in courses “we struggled in” based on COMSAEs and some other nebulous parameters, meaning that we’re retaking classes we’ve already passed. Most of us are mad about repeating the year but were starting to make peace with repeating and our letters literally said that we’re going to repeat the second year curriculum. I feel stupid for attending this school.
 
Heard that the school is trying to fudge the COCA visit by only having certain students talk to COCA officials? Any students have any thoughts? Also @Goro?
 
saltysol said:
Welp, the sucking at KansasCOM continues. Mishandling of financial aid disbursements where it’ll be the 2nd or 3rd week before students receive them, being told to forgive ourselves for repeating, and for something all new: being pulled out of second year courses and being placed in courses “we struggled in” based on COMSAEs and some other nebulous parameters, meaning that we’re retaking classes we’ve already passed. Most of us are mad about repeating the year but were starting to make peace with repeating and our letters literally said that we’re going to repeat the second year curriculum. I feel stupid for attending this school.
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So again, they are making up policies on the fly, and violating the student handbook
 
The downfall of American education continues its rot now at medical institutions..

The acting president has a pseudo-psychology degree from Capella?? Yuk.. You can't run a medical school like a for-profit online scheme
 
The thing that continues to bug me about what I've read about the KSCOM school, is how have the board of regents, or the rest of the 'deans' stand for having a head dean that isn't there day in and day out in the thick of it, especially as a new school? And who in their right mind thought someone with those credentials would be appropriate as a med school dean? Is this all just nepotism or under the table deals? It makes me embarrassed to be a DO and have to associate myself with these clowns.
 
Powdermonkey said:
The thing that continues to bug me about what I've read about the KSCOM school, is how have the board of regents, or the rest of the 'deans' stand for having a head dean that isn't there day in and day out in the thick of it, especially as a new school? And who in their right mind thought someone with those credentials would be appropriate as a med school dean? Is this all just nepotism or under the table deals? It makes me embarrassed to be a DO and have to associate myself with these clowns.
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I know for a fact my professors would be rioting out front of the hospital if some MBA a-hole tried this here. It speaks really poorly of the rest of the faculty and leadership that they let this happen and seem to be fine with it.
 
Powdermonkey said:
The thing that continues to bug me about what I've read about the KSCOM school, is how have the board of regents, or the rest of the 'deans' stand for having a head dean that isn't there day in and day out in the thick of it, especially as a new school? And who in their right mind thought someone with those credentials would be appropriate as a med school dean?
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You and me both!
 
Nontrad_FL_LGBT said:
I know for a fact my professors would be rioting out front of the hospital if some MBA a-hole tried this here. It speaks really poorly of the rest of the faculty and leadership that they let this happen and seem to be fine with it.
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Most of the faculty who were there from the start have left.
 
Goro said:
Color me unsurprised. When is the next COCA visit???
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August 18-21th. Representatives from the parent organization, TCS Education System, including CEO Michael Horowitz, have been on campus over the past several days.
 
baby_shark said:
August 18-21th. Representatives from the parent organization, TCS Education System, including CEO Michael Horowitz, have been on campus over the past several days.
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Hopefully you've been giving them an earful!
By the way, TCS is the same organization that decided Chicago needed yet another DO School.
 
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Hi, just some updates. I’ve been busy, so it took me a while to get back to writing this. I was also waiting for more developments to unfold. We were given the option to apply for a research LOA and return for the clinical on-ramp course next spring. Dean Ninan also sent out an email stating that our F from the on-ramp course has been changed to “In Progress.” Once we pass it next time, it will be recorded simply as “Pass” rather than “Pass with Remediation.”

Some students were also able to take the COMLEX, they had to complete it by early September (I believe September 2nd, though I’m not certain on the exact date) and they will rejoin the cohort. The school has created a model where we would essentially give up all our flex days in 4th year to graduate on time. We would walk with the class but not finish rotations until two weeks after graduation. If we fail any shelf exams along the way, there will be no room for remediation, and we will automatically have to repeat the year. Based on estimates, I think about 8 students are pursuing the option to take COMLEX to rejoin the cohort, 15–20 are on a research LOA, and roughly 20 are repeating the year.

We also have a COCA on-site visit next week from the 18th to the 21st. It seems a lot of these changes happened due to pressure from Reddit and lawyers. I’m glad we were given options, but it would have been nice if the school had allowed students to delay rotations from the very beginning, so we wouldn’t have had to spend the past few months stressed and depressed about the whole situation.
 
Goro said:
I concur with your hypothesis that the changes in policy were made due to outside pressures.

Just keep in mind that Administration blamed the students 100%, and saw no fault in their own actions.
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That's the part that still boggles my mind. I can imagine if it's 5-10 students, you could say it was just a fault of their own. But with 50ish student, 1/3-1/2 of the class?! Something bad happened. Good luck to you guys! Study hard and just keep after it. You've got a long road ahead still, but you can do it!
 
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Seems like there’s also movement as far the general public finding out. Apparently a journalist is looking into things. This could get incredibly embarrassing for Goro’s verbal punching bag and the school as a whole. People were already unlikely to go to this school between it being in Wichita and being new. Now loans are capped at 150k and the school continues to be adversarial to students. Who would want to go to a place where the school became even ****tier to students after a student committed suicide? They definitely didn’t get the 200 students they were looking for class of 29 and they’ll be lucky to get half of that in class of 30.
 
RandomPerson19 said:
Hi, just some updates. I’ve been busy, so it took me a while to get back to writing this. I was also waiting for more developments to unfold. We were given the option to apply for a research LOA and return for the clinical on-ramp course next spring. Dean Ninan also sent out an email stating that our F from the on-ramp course has been changed to “In Progress.” Once we pass it next time, it will be recorded simply as “Pass” rather than “Pass with Remediation.”

Some students were also able to take the COMLEX, they had to complete it by early September (I believe September 2nd, though I’m not certain on the exact date) and they will rejoin the cohort. The school has created a model where we would essentially give up all our flex days in 4th year to graduate on time. We would walk with the class but not finish rotations until two weeks after graduation. If we fail any shelf exams along the way, there will be no room for remediation, and we will automatically have to repeat the year. Based on estimates, I think about 8 students are pursuing the option to take COMLEX to rejoin the cohort, 15–20 are on a research LOA, and roughly 20 are repeating the year.

We also have a COCA on-site visit next week from the 18th to the 21st. It seems a lot of these changes happened due to pressure from Reddit and lawyers. I’m glad we were given options, but it would have been nice if the school had allowed students to delay rotations from the very beginning, so we wouldn’t have had to spend the past few months stressed and depressed about the whole situation.
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That's awesome!

But also wait a second-Let's say a student applies and matches, walks across the stage but they fail the shelf exam after graduating? Do they have to repeat or would school just let them re-take shelf so that they can go onto residency?
 
You should finish all your shelves third year? Maybe I'm missing something in your question?
Starr_key said:
That's awesome!

But also wait a second-Let's say a student applies and matches, walks across the stage but they fail the shelf exam after graduating? Do they have to repeat or would school just let them re-take shelf so that they can go onto residency?
Click to expand...
 
Starr_key said:
That's awesome!

But also wait a second-Let's say a student applies and matches, walks across the stage but they fail the shelf exam after graduating? Do they have to repeat or would school just let them re-take shelf so that they can go onto residency?
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There is no Shelf exam for rotations in their fourth year. I assumed that passing all their Elective Rotations would lead to graduation. However, failing any rotation in their third year could leave no room for remediation due to the delayed schedule, potentially requiring an LOA and restarting the third year with the next class.
 
baby_shark said:
There is no Shelf exam for rotations in their fourth year. I assumed that passing all their Elective Rotations would lead to graduation. However, failing any rotation in their third year could leave no room for remediation due to the delayed schedule, potentially requiring an LOA and restarting the third year with the next class.
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Oh, elective rotations makes more sense. I was thinking like core rotations.
 
We just received news that our current dean, Dr. Ninan, will be transitioning out of his role, and Dr. Ronnie B. Martin, DO, will become the new dean.
 
One of your fellow students just DM'd me about this. Dr Martin is the real deal. Founding Dean of two DO schools, and interim at a third. He knows medical education.

I was also told that Dr Winslow left.

These are great steps forward for KSCOM. Fingers crossed for your success!
 
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Really good for current/future students! Anything that can be done for those that already took the hit? Hope the new leadership or COCA can figure out something.
 
Goro said:
One of your fellow students just DM'd me about this. Dr Martin is the real deal. Founding Dean of two DO schools, and interim at a third. He know medical education.

I was also told that the maggot Dr Winslow left.

These are great steps forward for KSCOM. Fingers crossed for your success!
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Dr. Winslows gone? I haven't heard of this yet.
 
Goro said:
One of your fellow students just DM'd me about this. Dr Martin is the real deal. Founding Dean of two DO schools, and interim at a third. He knows medical education.

I was also told that Dr Winslow left.

These are great steps forward for KSCOM. Fingers crossed for your success!
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So should we still avoid sending an application to this school?
 
Goro said:
As a new school that has yet to graduate a Class, I still can't recommend them, but with the changes that they've made, once they've gotten to a graduation, then they'll be off my Bay Boy list.
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The biggest measuring stick for me is how they handle students who aren’t ready for boards this upcoming year. I hope they won’t screw students over again and instead will be transparent from the very beginning about the option of a research year or extra time.
 
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