trouble with embryology

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BoxingTheStars

BoxingTheStars

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The textbook that we use is just not working for me. I was thinking of getting an embryo review book to learn from instead, but wasn't sure if High-Yield and/or BRS were good for embryo or not. Or if anyone has suggestions for animations, some kind of computer tutorial program, or even a stellar textbook (one with good pictures!) I would appreciate it!
 
BoxingTheStars said:
The textbook that we use is just not working for me. I was thinking of getting an embryo review book to learn from instead, but wasn't sure if High-Yield and/or BRS were good for embryo or not. Or if anyone has suggestions for animations, some kind of computer tutorial program, or even a stellar textbook (one with good pictures!) I would appreciate it!
Click to expand...

I found BRS embryo pretty helpful.
 
I've been working with the developing human clinically oriented by keith l moore.
 
When you start on embryology of specific organs, definitely refer to this University of Indiana website. The animations are really helpful (especially the development of the heart): http://www.indiana.edu/~anat550/embryo_main/

If you need help with the beginning aspects of embryology, most animations are about the same. One thing that helped me was learning the Latin/Greek definitions behind each term and trying to explain to myself why each area is named as such. For example, somatopleuric mesoderm vs. splanchnopleuric mesoderm. If you figure out the meaning behind "soma-" and "splanchnic," it'll help you remember what is relative to what (splanchnic means "entrails," so it's referring to the internal).
 
I recommend you to buy Embryology by Langman....easy to read...finished it in 5 days. It comes with an awesome CD called simbryo (you can do a search online to order the CD separately). Embryo's all about visualization and it's more like a story. Drawing about the process or making flow charts really helps in understanding this boring subject. Good luck!!!
 
shreypete said:
I recommend you to buy Embryology by Langman....easy to read...finished it in 5 days. It comes with an awesome CD called simbryo (you can do a search online to order the CD separately). Embryo's all about visualization and it's more like a story. Drawing about the process or making flow charts really helps in understanding this boring subject. Good luck!!!
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i have this book too. it's good, but was too much detail for my class.

urg! i hated embryo with a passion - i almost enjoyed cadaver lab more than i enjoyed sitting through and studying embryo. you just sort of have to put your head down and take a bulldozer approach to it, imo. from what i understand, the amount on boards is fairly small and first aid is sufficient... but it may not cut it for your class.
 
shreypete said:
I recommend you to buy Embryology by Langman....easy to read...finished it in 5 days. It comes with an awesome CD called simbryo (you can do a search online to order the CD separately). Embryo's all about visualization and it's more like a story. Drawing about the process or making flow charts really helps in understanding this boring subject. Good luck!!!
Click to expand...

I have this book and think it's garbage. BRS embryo definitely helped, though.
 
xanthomondo said:
I have this book and think it's garbage. BRS embryo definitely helped, though.
Click to expand...

thanks for the responses. I agree with xantho; we use langman's and I hate it.... making it worse is that our lecturer uses pictures from every textbook BUT ours. I think I'll check out BRS and HY at the bookstore and pick up one or the other.
 
albe said:
When you start on embryology of specific organs, definitely refer to this University of Indiana website. The animations are really helpful (especially the development of the heart): http://www.indiana.edu/~anat550/embryo_main/

If you need help with the beginning aspects of embryology, most animations are about the same. One thing that helped me was learning the Latin/Greek definitions behind each term and trying to explain to myself why each area is named as such. For example, somatopleuric mesoderm vs. splanchnopleuric mesoderm. If you figure out the meaning behind "soma-" and "splanchnic," it'll help you remember what is relative to what (splanchnic means "entrails," so it's referring to the internal).
Click to expand...
I second a recommendation of this site. It was great.
 
+1 for the indiana website mentioned above. it's always helpful to see the actual folding and rotations. Sticks a lot better plus provides you a base for further reading 👍
 
shreypete said:
I recommend you to buy Embryology by Langman....easy to read...finished it in 5 days. It comes with an awesome CD called simbryo (you can do a search online to order the CD separately). Embryo's all about visualization and it's more like a story. Drawing about the process or making flow charts really helps in understanding this boring subject. Good luck!!!
Click to expand...

I like it too. And simbryo is cool.
 
BRS is a good supplement. I've found that almost all embryo books follow the same format, so getting a couple is a great idea. I also say that Langman's is a poor choice. It does have good clinical correlations. However, the actual info is too dense and frequently illustrated several pages away from the actual text, making it difficult to reference while studying.
 
bump

does everyone still think that BRS is the way to go?

Our text is larsen's human embryo, and I have never seen a textbook written this bad (or maybe it's just me).

I am just not getting embryo 🙁
 
phospho said:
bump

does everyone still think that BRS is the way to go?

Our text is larsen's human embryo, and I have never seen a textbook written this bad (or maybe it's just me).

I am just not getting embryo 🙁
Click to expand...
The Developing Human is by far the best embryo textbook I have used. To answer your question yes BRS is still pretty good and can almost be used as a stand alone. If you are going to give the text book a try then HY Embryo will be all you need to supplement it.
 
My school used Langman's. I think it has pretty good illustrations and covered the depth that we did.

However, I don't think I would've made it through without the awesome embryo professor that we have. She simplified everything into easy to remember points and being a pediatric surgeon inserted pictures of patients with the defects when it was possible.
 
I found HY Embryo good enough to get a mid-C to low B on our tests. That's really all I wanted, so it was perfect. Each chapter is about 4-6 pages long, so it's easy to hit all the high points. Langman's sucks nuts and is horrendously detailed. I would get HY for Step 1 and the BRS for class.
 
When I took embryology last year I used The Developing Human by Keith Moore and it was a great book. I highly recommend it .. !!
 
HY wasn't/isn't nearly detailed enough for embryo class. We use Langman's Embryology and I think its great, minus the absolutely useless molecular/genetic induction information of each system.
 
We used Langman's and I loved it. It had very good descriptions and the pictures are great. It also helped that we had Dr. Sadler (the author of Langman's) as our lecturer for the entirety of embryo, and his lectures followed the text and he used the same pics so that made it even better.
 
I think the same guy wrote BRS and High-Yield Embryo. You'll find many outlines in those that are near identical.
 
Wow I hate embryo... Was wondering if anyone could explain what happens to the secondary/definitive yolk sac once gastrulation starts to occur...

I know the 2ndry yolk sac is lined in the inside by extraembryonic endoderm and outside by splanchopleuric mesoderm before gastrulation... What I don't understand is when gastrulation occurs and the epiblast migrates to displace the hypoblast to become the embryonic endoderm, what happens to the yolk sac?

I can't seem to find anything on this in the book... In later diagrams of the embryo such as in lateral folding it seems like the yolk sac is lined by splanchopleure (embryonic endoderm and mesoderm). Is this correct? If so do the extraembryonic layers get displaced or something?

ARGH! This should be simple but I can't seem to find information on this... 😱
 
As I look back, I went through the entire embryo course thinking "maybe I'll have an easier time understanding once I get to the end (like immuno) or once I finish gross anatomy".

I can safely say that isn't the case, and after a year I really. really don't understand anything about embryology.

The course contained the highest number of awful lecturers (who probably didn't really understand it themselves) and the highest number of awful books.
 
Guile said:
Definitely check out this site for some great embryology animations: http://www.indiana.edu/~anat550/embryo_main/

Really helped me create some mental images of some difficult processes.
Click to expand...

This site is awesome if you are a visual learner like me and need to see the process unfold before your eyes. It helps take a 2D picture and turn it into 3D so you can spatially see how everything happens. It's much much much better than Simbryo, which comes with Langman's. I would never have understood the cardiovascular and GI formation without the site
 
dude1344 said:
Wow I hate embryo... Was wondering if anyone could explain what happens to the secondary/definitive yolk sac once gastrulation starts to occur...

I know the 2ndry yolk sac is lined in the inside by extraembryonic endoderm and outside by splanchopleuric mesoderm before gastrulation... What I don't understand is when gastrulation occurs and the epiblast migrates to displace the hypoblast to become the embryonic endoderm, what happens to the yolk sac?

I can't seem to find anything on this in the book... In later diagrams of the embryo such as in lateral folding it seems like the yolk sac is lined by splanchopleure (embryonic endoderm and mesoderm). Is this correct? If so do the extraembryonic layers get displaced or something?

ARGH! This should be simple but I can't seem to find information on this... 😱
Click to expand...

Yes. In lateral folding the yolk sac is pinched off and the midgut is formed which is lined by endoderm. So the remnant of the yolk sac that was pinched off becomes the vitelline duct (aka omphaloenteric duct) whic is obliterated in the 7th week of the embryonic period. So basically the embryo will fold in such a way to pinch of the part that was initially lined by the extramebryonic membrane.
 
The only reason embryo seems to suck cow pudendals, is because they skim it so lightly and expect you to know sorry ass details that would be better known if you actually studied and understood the material. With anatomy and histo tagged along, you barely have time to scratch your junk let alone dig deep into embryo, so it becomes a game of memorizing the slides five minutes before your exam and forgetting it 10 minutes into the test.
 
Am I the only one who doesn't hate embryology? I think its awesome. When I start reading the textbook I just wanna keep going cause its interesting. The only problem is, like Bad Virus said, it pulls time away from anatomy which you really can't afford.
 
albe said:
When you start on embryology of specific organs, definitely refer to this University of Indiana website. The animations are really helpful (especially the development of the heart): http://www.indiana.edu/~anat550/embryo_main/

If you need help with the beginning aspects of embryology, most animations are about the same. One thing that helped me was learning the Latin/Greek definitions behind each term and trying to explain to myself why each area is named as such. For example, somatopleuric mesoderm vs. splanchnopleuric mesoderm. If you figure out the meaning behind "soma-" and "splanchnic," it'll help you remember what is relative to what (splanchnic means "entrails," so it's referring to the internal).
Click to expand...

That website is awesome. Thanks.
 
The only reason embryo seems to suck cow pudendals, is because they skim it so lightly and expect you to know sorry ass details that would be better known if you actually studied and understood the material.
Click to expand...
Well, that's not the only reason. For example, one other reason is that the details of it are completely useless clinically. There's a reason the High Yield Embryo is 40 pages long.
 
MilkmanAl said:
Well, that's not the only reason. For example, one other reason is that the details of it are completely useless clinically. There's a reason the High Yield Embryo is 40 pages long.
Click to expand...

touche` salesman . . . touche`

I still find the material cool as heck and wish I could learn it more thoroughly, but it seems like an impossible task with all of the other materials they are throwing our way.
 
One of my biggest problems with the subject I think was vocabulary and timelime. The vocabulary built upon itself over and over so I constantly had to go back to remember what xxx was. It didn't help that Langman's book seemed to jump around timewise (fertilization -> placenta, etc) so I really never understood what came after what.
 
So in light of this subject being so crapily taught; What should I drill into my head from it for the boards while its still kinda fresh?

I am pretty good at remembering specifics if I am advised to do so in advance.

I thank you in advance my elder brethern/sisterens . . .
 
bad virus said:
So in light of this subject being so crapily taught; What should I drill into my head from it for the boards while its still kinda fresh?

I am pretty good at remembering specifics if I am advised to do so in advance.

I thank you in advance my elder brethern/sisterens . . .
Click to expand...

The embryo in First Aid was all I really needed for Step I. Most of it's escaping me at the moment, but your major high yield stuff includes:

-Aortic Arches-> Derivatives
-Branchial Clefts/Pouches/Etc-> Derivatives
-The embryo of the gut and what can go wrong with it
-Tracheoesophageal fistual (This is a big one)
-Congenital heart defects (know the big ones)
-male/female genital homologs
-epispadias/hypospadias
-Renal Embryo (stuff like potter syndrome)
-Hox Genes
-critical stages of development (interrupt x here, this happens)

(this list is in no way comprehensive, I'm just pulling things off the top of my head that you ABSOLUTELY must know for boards)

Basically, Step I likes clinical embryo. The early minutia is pretty low yield unless you can find some way it gives you a clinical effect.
 
Depakote said:
The embryo in First Aid was all I really needed for Step I. Most of it's escaping me at the moment, but your major high yield stuff includes:

-Aortic Arches-> Derivatives
-Branchial Clefts/Pouches/Etc-> Derivatives
-The embryo of the gut and what can go wrong with it
-Tracheoesophageal fistual (This is a big one)
-Congenital heart defects (know the big ones)
-male/female genital homologs
-epispadias/hypospadias
-Renal Embryo (stuff like potter syndrome)
-Hox Genes
-critical stages of development (interrupt x here, this happens)

(this list is in no way comprehensive, I'm just pulling things off the top of my head that you ABSOLUTELY must know for boards)

Basically, Step I likes clinical embryo. The early minutia is pretty low yield unless you can find some way it gives you a clinical effect.
Click to expand...

Thanks brother, I really truly appreciate it.
 
Depakote said:
-male/female genital homologs
Click to expand...

Been looking for a good comprehensive list of these, and can't seem to find any. This is the closest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homologues_of_the_human_reproductive_system

Would you say this is comprehensive?

Also, random question, but can anyone tell me if guys have an umbilical artery? The artery seems to give off a branch to the ductus deferens, so does that mean they have one or maybe it's called something else there?

thanks!
 
phospho said:
Also, random question, but can anyone tell me if guys have an umbilical artery? The artery seems to give off a branch to the ductus deferens, so does that mean they have one or maybe it's called something else there?
Click to expand...

Well, I used to have one, but now its probably just a piece of dried meat called the medial umbillical ligament. Its usually the first or second branch off the anterior division of the internal illiac artery (there was quite a bit of variation in our lab). The still functioning part of it gave off the superior viscle artery which supplied the top part of the bladder in males. Check out Plates 402 and 403 in netters 4th edition.


Hey, I have seen that picture before (your avi), I am not sure but I think it was a psych experiment or something like that . . . Somthing about being unisex. . .
 
Last edited:
bad virus said:
Well, I used to have one, but now its probably just a piece of dried meat called the medial umbillical ligament. Its usually the first or second branch off the anterior division of the internal illiac artery (there was quite a bit of variation in our lab). The still functioning part of it gave off the superior viscle artery which supplied the top part of the bladder in males. Check out Plates 402 and 403 in netters 4th edition.


Hey, I have seen that picture before (your avi), I am not sure but I think it was a psych experiment or something like that . . . Somthing about being unisex. . .
Click to expand...

yes, it's a picture from one of my social psychology classes, nice catch! It's supposed to be an "average" face.

http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakult...hschnittsgesichter/durchschnittsgesichter.htm

Anyways, I checked netters, and it's still confusing me. Notice how on plate 402, the umbilical artery is giving off 4 branches. One of them is the dried up medial umbilical ligament, two of them are the superior vesical arteries, and the 4th one is unlabeled. Does that mean it's the vas deferens artery?

If you see this wiki page, it says that the vas deferens artery comes from the umbilical:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_artery

Wikipedia calls it the "artery of ductus deferens".

As for the functioning part of it giving off the sup. vesicals, does that mean we still call it the umbilical artery in men since the proximal portion of it is still technically patent?

thanks for your help! 🙂
 
I'm thinking wikipedia is wrong. I just looked at plate 264, and it seems that the deferens art. is coming off the inf. vesical art. Unless this is one of those arteries that varies. This whole variation and anastomosis crap in the lower extremity is really a pain in the ass 😡
 
phospho said:
I'm thinking wikipedia is wrong. I just looked at plate 264, and it seems that the deferens art. is coming off the inf. vesical art. Unless this is one of those arteries that varies. This whole variation and anastomosis crap in the lower extremity is really a pain in the ass 😡
Click to expand...

Are you studying this for your test, because if so, they almost never label the superior vesicle aretery because of all the variation. Your right, netters has a bunch of junk coming off of it, and I didn't even notice them before you mentioned them, I only knew of three and used to call them all superior vesicle arteries (lol) . . . Anyway, if you can go into lab today, you will be enthralled by all the variation when you see it. The ones that they usually do label are Internal Pudendal, uterine, Vaginal (remember that the ureter goes between those two), superior gluteal, inferior gluteal, obturator. They still call it umbillical before it bifrucates, so if it is labled before it turns all dry and crusty (aka the medial umbillical ligament) call it the umbilical artery, or superior vesicle if its after the bi-tri-tetra-frucation.

Good luck on it, and i hope I am making sense. Also don't forget to be able to identify the PILS = Posterior branch internal illaic, Illiolumbar, Lateral sacral, Superior gluteal.

God the pelvis sucks, but there is only so much they can label.
 
bad virus said:
Are you studying this for your test, because if so, they almost never label the superior vesicle aretery because of all the variation. Your right, netters has a bunch of junk coming off of it, and I didn't even notice them before you mentioned them, I only knew of three and used to call them all superior vesicle arteries (lol) . . . Anyway, if you can go into lab today, you will be enthralled by all the variation when you see it. The ones that they usually do label are Internal Pudendal, uterine, Vaginal (remember that the ureter goes between those two), superior gluteal, inferior gluteal, obturator. They still call it umbillical before it bifrucates, so if it is labled before it turns all dry and crusty (aka the medial umbillical ligament) call it the umbilical artery, or superior vesicle if its after the bi-tri-tetra-frucation.

Good luck on it, and i hope I am making sense. Also don't forget to be able to identify the PILS = Posterior branch internal illaic, Illiolumbar, Lateral sacral, Superior gluteal.

God the pelvis sucks, but there is only so much they can label.
Click to expand...

You're making perfect sense!

As for the internal iliac branches, I came up with this last night:

I Luv Opium

iliolumbar
lateral sacral
umbilical
vesical (inferior)
obturator
pudendal (internal)
inferior and superior gluteals
uterine
middle rectal

I'm glad you told me about your PILS mneumonic because it goes very well with mine. Oh, and just for the record, the closest to opium I've ever been was when I had my wisdom teeth removed and they prescribed me oxycodone!😀

My test is in about 10 days. I didn't do so hot on the head and neck block, so I really need to nail this one. PLEASE feel free to send me a PM or post to this thread if you're bored and can think of any other tips/relationships that I can use in this lab practical, because it's the lab portion that's kicking my ass.

Again, thank you so much!
 
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