two recent articles about saturation in pharmacy...from our leaders....

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

farm4real

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
153
Reaction score
163
Both of these are from those who should protect the profession……

If you are pre pharm and continue, the life you will have is the life you deserve.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6581349/pdf/ajpe7593.pdf
AND:
https://www.drugtopics.com/viewpoints/opinion-pharmd-quality-vs-quantity

Opinion: PharmD Quality vs Quantity

Peter Vlasses, PharmD
In my 20 years as executive director of the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE), and more so recently, we have been asked why we don’t call a moratorium on opening new pharmacy schools, or why we don’t better control the number of students enrolled and graduating from accredited programs each year. Or, why isn’t ACPE acting as the “gatekeeper” for new schools and pharmacists entering the marketplace to help manage and preserve jobs and salaries in the industry?
We live in a free market society. When I started in my position, pharmacy had 78 accredited schools, and we were graduating approximately 7,000 students a year. Because projections were made of an upcoming pharmacist shortage due to an aging population with increasing medication needs, existing colleges and schools of pharmacy expanded their class sizes and/or opened branch campuses. Many new schools began to apply for accreditation.
Now we have 143 accredited schools and are graduating approximately 14,500 students per year. Until recently, this dramatic increase in graduates has been accommodated by the job market, with almost all students having employment options, although lately, not always in their preferred geographic area. As the urban job market started to saturate, enrollment numbers to pharmacy programs have begun to take a downturn.
This is the type of market response I learned about years ago in economics. Had ACPE acted to limit the growth of existing programs or new ones, many of the new graduates would have been robbed of the opportunity to practice pharmacy.
Educational program accreditors do not exist to control the employment markets of their associated professions. ACPE’s standards are based on quality, not quantity. Our focus is making sure students have the best information to make career and program decisions at the time of application.
Unfortunately, sometimes a market shifts quickly before a cohort of students graduate from a four-year program. As ACPE monitors licensing exam performance and the employment of graduates, it is important to ensure students are properly informed about these market shifts. We have noted that program sizes have begun to “right size” on their own by accepting fewer students and ensuring acceptance of only qualified candidates, and by closing branch campuses. These actions are the responses seen in a free market system.
By monitoring enrollments, graduation and employment rates, and information available to applicants and students, we as accreditors allow the market to respond based on the availability of relevant information. However, if a program continues to accept students when their graduation, licensing, and employment rates fall, we can (and have) engaged its leaders in serious conversations about their need to better inform prospective students about these rates and/or adjust program size. If the pharmacy program is unable to meet ACPE accreditation standards, that is a different story that requires different considerations.
I have great compassion for those pharmacy students who struggle to find employment after graduation while trying to manage substantial student loan debt. On the other hand, I believe there are jobs for pharmacists in rural America for people willing to relocate, even for a few years until the job market opens up and as more baby boomers retire.
Although I feel bad for those students facing job placement difficulties, ACPE is unable to change its review process that would either close programs or stop accrediting new programs as a means of protecting them.
 
Another failure of a free market system, eh?
 
The MFWIC's ran with a pie in the sky "Doctor" of pharmacy degree that was useless on it's face for at least 75% of new grads. Very few of the existing Bachelors types bit on the "upgrade". The academics got away with it as long as the system was begging for help and there was money in that system to pull the weight. Now that they have managed to flood the ranks of worker bees...the system is doing a hard 180 and left the labor pool to flounder. In addition there is new technology that will wipe out even more pharmacist positions. The learned articles are just excuses..eyewash and diving for cover......I have no advice other than do not drop money on some school and have it go T.U. 6 months later..and remember..the nimrods who caused this have forked tongues..
 
MHO............no excuses, but rather lies (e.g. ACPE is able to change the review process; the good Dr states that they cannot but that is simply false...the medical profession did so and no "lawyer apocalypse" stopped them)

Come down to Miami and check out Larkin COP..(College of Pharmacy | Larkin University) an organization, not even an -edu internet address.

269872
p13-gary-levin.jpg
 
Another BS response, no surprise there.
 
Another failure of a free market system, eh?
Not really. In a true free market no banker would give you a loan to go the pharmacy school under these conditions. It's only because the federal government guarantees hundreds of thousands of dollars for practically anybody to study practically anything without regard to economic that we have disasters like this.
 
Not really. In a true free market no banker would give you a loan to go the pharmacy school under these conditions. It's only because the federal government guarantees hundreds of thousands of dollars for practically anybody to study practically anything without regard to economic that we have disasters like this.


In what country is education financed by private bankers?
 
Not really. In a true free market no banker would give you a loan to go the pharmacy school under these conditions. It's only because the federal government guarantees hundreds of thousands of dollars for practically anybody to study practically anything without regard to economic that we have disasters like this.


AMEN!

Remember ACPE is a PRIVATE COMPANY!!! $$$$
 
Not really. In a true free market no banker would give you a loan to go the pharmacy school under these conditions. It's only because the federal government guarantees hundreds of thousands of dollars for practically anybody to study practically anything without regard to economic that we have disasters like this.

Exactly this. To qualify for a home or car loan you have to show proof of income, savings, good credit, a good stable job. The bank is taking a risk.

To qualify for student loans, you don't need anything. The government will hand you 200k for a profession with poor job prospects.
 
Glad to see ACPE taking zero responsibility.

The very least they should do is put schools on probation for having <75-80% naplex pass rate, then re-evaluate in 2 years, then shut the program down if they don't meet that minimum standard of proficiency. Maybe THEN our profession wouldn't be graduating people that can't make a damn sandwich correctly.

ACPE would lose money if that happened, I guess? So it'll never happen, unfortunately. ACPE members need their bonus money to buy boats!
 
In what country is education financed by private bankers?
I described the situation in America. I don't know or care about the answer to your question, and I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.
 
He is an old man that ran the wave of the 90s.
 
MHO............no excuses, but rather lies (e.g. ACPE is able to change the review process; the good Dr states that they cannot but that is simply false...the medical profession did so and no "lawyer apocalypse" stopped them)

Come down to Miami and check out Larkin COP..(College of Pharmacy | Larkin University) an organization, not even an -edu internet address.

View attachment 269872View attachment 269872

This guy looks like he is concentrating on letting a fart rip. Definitely bearing down.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/p13-gary-levin-jpg.269872/
269917
 
AACP has their annual meeting this month. Cannot wait to hear the key messages and the event is in ACPEs backyard so should make good for interesting topics.
 
Last edited:
I described the situation in America. I don't know or care about the answer to your question, and I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion.

So basically you don’t have anything to back up your ingenius solution
 
MHO............no excuses, but rather lies (e.g. ACPE is able to change the review process; the good Dr states that they cannot but that is simply false...the medical profession did so and no "lawyer apocalypse" stopped them)

Come down to Miami and check out Larkin COP..(College of Pharmacy | Larkin University) an organization, not even an -edu internet address.

View attachment 269872View attachment 269872
That building look like a converted strip mall. A Dollar General would have worked better.
 
bad things allows follow anytime you get too greedy with money....
 
Rip a Fart ? I was told that was their school motto.

I thought it strange, but was told FART stood for “fraud accreditation -ridiculous tuition”

Man I hope they were joking.........

In any case you can just tell this guy is dreaming of retirement. What the heck is he pointing at? It’s like he’s saying “haha look what I did”
 
So instead robbing someone of a pharmacy profession, why not just rob someone of $200K with no prospect of finding a job? So much for compassion.
 
"We have noted that program sizes have begun to “right size” on their own by accepting fewer students and ensuring acceptance of only qualified candidates, and by closing branch campuses. These actions are the responses seen in a free market system. "

Disagree with this. In a true free market, since there are many students willing to fork over 200k, class sizes will remain the same.
 
Glad to see ACPE taking zero responsibility.

The very least they should do is put schools on probation for having <75-80% naplex pass rate, then re-evaluate in 2 years, then shut the program down if they don't meet that minimum standard of proficiency. Maybe THEN our profession wouldn't be graduating people that can't make a damn sandwich correctly.

ACPE would lose money if that happened, I guess? So it'll never happen, unfortunately. ACPE members need their bonus money to buy boats!
ACPE can determine how many students each school can accept. They do it all the time and for them to say otherwise is a flat lie.
 
In what country is education financed by private bankers?

We were for pharmacy until 2009. We had Chase, BOA, and sallie mae, a few others. They ALL backed out of these loans quick and hard. This is when i realized ( my second year pharm school) there would be over-saturation and the banks wanted NOTHING to do with this foretasted BAD debt. They knew exactly what was coming, and so did i when i saw them all pull out and sell the loans to uncle sam.....
Both of these are from those who should protect the profession……

If you are pre pharm and continue, the life you will have is the life you deserve.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6581349/pdf/ajpe7593.pdf
AND:
Opinion: PharmD Quality vs Quantity

Opinion: PharmD Quality vs Quantity

Peter Vlasses, PharmD
In my 20 years as executive director of the Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education (ACPE), and more so recently, we have been asked why we don’t call a moratorium on opening new pharmacy schools, or why we don’t better control the number of students enrolled and graduating from accredited programs each year. Or, why isn’t ACPE acting as the “gatekeeper” for new schools and pharmacists entering the marketplace to help manage and preserve jobs and salaries in the industry?
We live in a free market society. When I started in my position, pharmacy had 78 accredited schools, and we were graduating approximately 7,000 students a year. Because projections were made of an upcoming pharmacist shortage due to an aging population with increasing medication needs, existing colleges and schools of pharmacy expanded their class sizes and/or opened branch campuses. Many new schools began to apply for accreditation.
Now we have 143 accredited schools and are graduating approximately 14,500 students per year. Until recently, this dramatic increase in graduates has been accommodated by the job market, with almost all students having employment options, although lately, not always in their preferred geographic area. As the urban job market started to saturate, enrollment numbers to pharmacy programs have begun to take a downturn.
This is the type of market response I learned about years ago in economics. Had ACPE acted to limit the growth of existing programs or new ones, many of the new graduates would have been robbed of the opportunity to practice pharmacy.
Educational program accreditors do not exist to control the employment markets of their associated professions. ACPE’s standards are based on quality, not quantity. Our focus is making sure students have the best information to make career and program decisions at the time of application.
Unfortunately, sometimes a market shifts quickly before a cohort of students graduate from a four-year program. As ACPE monitors licensing exam performance and the employment of graduates, it is important to ensure students are properly informed about these market shifts. We have noted that program sizes have begun to “right size” on their own by accepting fewer students and ensuring acceptance of only qualified candidates, and by closing branch campuses. These actions are the responses seen in a free market system.
By monitoring enrollments, graduation and employment rates, and information available to applicants and students, we as accreditors allow the market to respond based on the availability of relevant information. However, if a program continues to accept students when their graduation, licensing, and employment rates fall, we can (and have) engaged its leaders in serious conversations about their need to better inform prospective students about these rates and/or adjust program size. If the pharmacy program is unable to meet ACPE accreditation standards, that is a different story that requires different considerations.
I have great compassion for those pharmacy students who struggle to find employment after graduation while trying to manage substantial student loan debt. On the other hand, I believe there are jobs for pharmacists in rural America for people willing to relocate, even for a few years until the job market opens up and as more baby boomers retire.
Although I feel bad for those students facing job placement difficulties, ACPE is unable to change its review process that would either close programs or stop accrediting new programs as a means of protecting them.

Pretty embarrassing, all i hear from Boards, committees.....etc. is excuses and mumbo jumbo. Nobody wants to fix this and you know why right? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$............they are ALL making a killing right now, know its coming to an end, and will steal all the silverware on their way out the door from this dinner party.
 
yay 83 percent acceptance rate into pharmacy school. dilutated, other student would just find their passion somewhere else.
 
We were for pharmacy until 2009. We had Chase, BOA, and sallie mae, a few others. They ALL backed out of these loans quick and hard. This is when i realized ( my second year pharm school) there would be over-saturation and the banks wanted NOTHING to do with this foretasted BAD debt. They knew exactly what was coming, and so did i when i saw them all pull out and sell the loans to uncle sam.....


Pretty embarrassing, all i hear from Boards, committees.....etc. is excuses and mumbo jumbo. Nobody wants to fix this and you know why right? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$............they are ALL making a killing right now, know its coming to an end, and will steal all the silverware on their way out the door from this dinner party.
Thats a pretty good analogy. Sad and true.
 
ACPE can and has controlled the amount of students a school can enroll.
 
i think the damage is done and it's too far along to control now.
 
Top