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UCLA Ortho Scandal (and others)
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Thanks, looks like their "donations" are large enough to recoup the money the state is paying for their education.
BTW, I know most the residents at UCLA are some of the best qualified residents in the country and do not deserve to be grouped in with this situation. My condolences, because UCLA has a great program and faculty. Just a shame the admissions took this path with a couple of individuals.
HAHah UCLA ortho is a great program and faculty?? What you smokin? Since when is 3 years of being a lab rat and working with anti-social faculty who can barely speak English a great program?
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Average board scores for the ortho residents at UCLA are in the high 90s (average of 98 I heard, don't quote me). There do seem to be a lot of English as second language faculty but how does that make them any less of an educator as an American-born professor?
I'm a second year here and I don't even really know, or care, what is going on in ortho but the program is one of the best in the country hands down. Which is one reason why this "scandal" has affected the entire dental community so deeply.
Does this mean that a graduate from UCLA ortho can band and bracket while standing on his/her head or are they just given an ortho magic wand?
does this comment make sense to you in response to the other post? or did you just want to put something idiotic on?
This is one of my favorite responses. In the first half of the sentance he/she properly identifies themself as being oblivious to orthodontics. But then in the second half of the sentance somehow knows something no one else knows, that UCLA is hands down one of the best ortho programs in the nation. And how exactly do you know this, is it because you are familiar with all other ortho programs, and understand there strengths and weaknesses as well.
Well the Daily Bruin labeled the ortho program as "elite" (not elitist) and since everyone on here accepts what the daily bruin has to say as truth, I figured everyone would agree with my original statement that UCLA's ortho program is an elite, top tier, top notch program.
And what else makes a good program if not the quality of its student body anyway?
And you've misinterpreted my apathy for this scandal to be reflective of feelings toward the program. I know about the program but can't care less about what it's going through because I don't know the details and I will probably never know until Aaron Molen writes his memoirs.
Hm... quality faculty, a well designed curriculum (of course this depends on what you're specifically looking for), strong alumni support and involvement, strong research (if you're inerested in that stuff). I don't know... some other things too, i suppose (e.g. ethical environment, heheh)...
Anyhow I think it's stupid to make a blanket statement that so-and-so program is an elite program or one of the best, yadda yadda yadda. Every program emphasizes different aspects, but few (or none) are good at all. You go with the program that is the best fit for your specific career goals.
Yea you're right. Sorry for the blanket statement. Guess I was a little excited.
how can you possibly know or be totally convinced ppl acted unethically?
i am a practicing dentist, didnt even go to ucla, but know ppl. in the program. some are aquantances and others i know better. you sure do talk a lotta sh1t for someone who doesnt know the academic standing of ALL those implicated. i know many of their board scores and i know yours (from your posts). let me put it this way, your score doesnt beat all of theirs.
the way you phrase your comments, you try to condemn a select few, and as a result hurt all, without even knowing all of these ppl. you are a UCLA resident, why on earth would you hurt your own school where you do residency. if you care so greatly about the sweet lady you mentioned, why have you increased the spotlight on this situation and have her caught in the crossfire? have you thought for one instant, that many ppl who read this may also infer that this type of thing occurs in other programs as well. maybe even yours? in any event, why is it your job to be the one (or speak on behalf of others) to say "we need to be convinced"?
you imply certain donations have flown under the radar. are you certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these donations were for influence? many ppl have donated at various schools anonymously. including myself. however, i am not ruling out the possibility that these amounts could have been for other reasons either. i am just saying, you really need to check your facts and make certain they are justified before making statements. your statements directed to a select few can implicate/hurt all.
I also feel if this "scandal" had happened at a private institution no one would even know. as a resident, i am sure you are aware of this fact. i am sure you know/or hear of many who gained entrance to a program that wasnt at the top of their class or "over-qualified". it happens. it happens every year...whether it is an orthodontic program, mba program or medical school.
in the end, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. what do you plan to accomplish with your comments? witchhunt? reform? CHANGE? remember, there are already measures implemented to assure equality in the future. i am sure, the selection process for all future candidates will be changed as a result. i am sure the current residents feel bad about the situation already. remember, we are innocent until PROVEN "guilty". if its such a "shame" to you, why not just lay the thing to rest and let everyone get on with their lives? looking at the bigger picture...have you ever considered, those that you feel arent qualified,that attained their spot by other means, may not even do well in private practice? i know of many dentists and specialists who were at the top of their class that are lousy at their job. i also know of the converse. in the end, it seems that you (and perhaps others) feel that this is unfair or biased. truthfully, life is tough, why dont you worry about yourself and not others?
by the way, i am a general practitioner with a board score of 94 on part 1 (i will scan and post if you want) and i never applied to any specialty even at the urge of many faculties. many even would "pull strings" for me. when i first heard of the scandal, i felt bad for those who were qualified. i also felt, "hey, thats life in the big city." fair or not, qualified or not, true or not, i really didnt care that much... because in the grand scheme of things its really not that important. these things happen. its not a great situation, there are going to be changes. great, we all know now, lets put it behind us and be professional about the sitution. after all, you will be earning a certificate from ucla.
quote:
Hehe. That's funny.
Dr. Molen approached me yesterday and said he read my post online (on this thread) and was "very disappointed". I guess he was expecting I'd either support those involved or not express my opinion. I didn't feel right doing either one because I'm convinced certain people acted unethically. There's a great deal of compelling information indicating improper practices and not a lot to the contrary. UCLA's official statement is there were no improper practices, but they haven't shown evidence to back that up. I think most people would like to know what lead them to that conclusion. Why not release that information? Convince us.
I remember the last time someone donated $1,000,000 to the School of Dentistry. The ceremony was tremendous. A massive plaque was made naming the donor and placed in the Student Affairs office. Frankly, I can't imagine how 3 huge donations could have flown below the school's 'publicity' radar unless they were illegitimate. At the very least they would have been proclaimed as anonymous generosity and used as a model for other potential donors.
I feel really bad for the current orthodontic residents and faculty who were naive to this practice. The truth is many UCLA ortho residents could have gone to a lot of great programs and now their reputations are being tainted by the actions of a few. The same can be said for some faculty; one in particular is the sweetest, nicest lady, very bright and dedicated to research. It's such a shame.
i am a practicing dentist, didnt even go to ucla, but know ppl. in the program. some are aquantances and others i know better. you sure do talk a lotta sh1t for someone who doesnt know the academic standing of ALL those implicated. i know many of their board scores and i know yours (from your posts). let me put it this way, your score doesnt beat all of theirs.
the way you phrase your comments, you try to condemn a select few, and as a result hurt all, without even knowing all of these ppl. you are a UCLA resident, why on earth would you hurt your own school where you do residency. if you care so greatly about the sweet lady you mentioned, why have you increased the spotlight on this situation and have her caught in the crossfire? have you thought for one instant, that many ppl who read this may also infer that this type of thing occurs in other programs as well. maybe even yours? in any event, why is it your job to be the one (or speak on behalf of others) to say "we need to be convinced"?
you imply certain donations have flown under the radar. are you certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these donations were for influence? many ppl have donated at various schools anonymously. including myself. however, i am not ruling out the possibility that these amounts could have been for other reasons either. i am just saying, you really need to check your facts and make certain they are justified before making statements. your statements directed to a select few can implicate/hurt all.
I also feel if this "scandal" had happened at a private institution no one would even know. as a resident, i am sure you are aware of this fact. i am sure you know/or hear of many who gained entrance to a program that wasnt at the top of their class or "over-qualified". it happens. it happens every year...whether it is an orthodontic program, mba program or medical school.
in the end, you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. what do you plan to accomplish with your comments? witchhunt? reform? CHANGE? remember, there are already measures implemented to assure equality in the future. i am sure, the selection process for all future candidates will be changed as a result. i am sure the current residents feel bad about the situation already. remember, we are innocent until PROVEN "guilty". if its such a "shame" to you, why not just lay the thing to rest and let everyone get on with their lives? looking at the bigger picture...have you ever considered, those that you feel arent qualified,that attained their spot by other means, may not even do well in private practice? i know of many dentists and specialists who were at the top of their class that are lousy at their job. i also know of the converse. in the end, it seems that you (and perhaps others) feel that this is unfair or biased. truthfully, life is tough, why dont you worry about yourself and not others?
by the way, i am a general practitioner with a board score of 94 on part 1 (i will scan and post if you want) and i never applied to any specialty even at the urge of many faculties. many even would "pull strings" for me. when i first heard of the scandal, i felt bad for those who were qualified. i also felt, "hey, thats life in the big city." fair or not, qualified or not, true or not, i really didnt care that much... because in the grand scheme of things its really not that important. these things happen. its not a great situation, there are going to be changes. great, we all know now, lets put it behind us and be professional about the sitution. after all, you will be earning a certificate from ucla.
quote:
Hehe. That's funny.
Dr. Molen approached me yesterday and said he read my post online (on this thread) and was "very disappointed". I guess he was expecting I'd either support those involved or not express my opinion. I didn't feel right doing either one because I'm convinced certain people acted unethically. There's a great deal of compelling information indicating improper practices and not a lot to the contrary. UCLA's official statement is there were no improper practices, but they haven't shown evidence to back that up. I think most people would like to know what lead them to that conclusion. Why not release that information? Convince us.
I remember the last time someone donated $1,000,000 to the School of Dentistry. The ceremony was tremendous. A massive plaque was made naming the donor and placed in the Student Affairs office. Frankly, I can't imagine how 3 huge donations could have flown below the school's 'publicity' radar unless they were illegitimate. At the very least they would have been proclaimed as anonymous generosity and used as a model for other potential donors.
I feel really bad for the current orthodontic residents and faculty who were naive to this practice. The truth is many UCLA ortho residents could have gone to a lot of great programs and now their reputations are being tainted by the actions of a few. The same can be said for some faculty; one in particular is the sweetest, nicest lady, very bright and dedicated to research. It's such a shame.
All of us know of back-door deals. I saw them where I attended dental school, and now where I attend residency. You never completely know all the details. Yet, you gather enough info after a few years to see patterns and connect the dots.
It appears UCLA created a rather filthy pattern. The original post also mentioned The OSU. I had heard about that fellow, too. I believe his brother QB-ed at OSU before or while he was at OSU for dental school.
All of these examples only serve to frustrate those of us who could only follow the rules of "fair play." That is, we had no inside connections or anything especially unique to leverage. So upon hearing news about these scandals, I'm not at all surprised to read the eruption of anger, disappointment, etc. people feel about this entire process.
It's interesting that the ortho legacy applicants rarely measure up to the performance level of their accomplished parents and/or relatives. I've known a few sons of orthodontists who were wonderful in terms of work ethic, personality, and character. They deserved and worked hard for ortho admissions. However, the majority of "legacy" people I think of were definitely lacking in many areas--especially when compared to their non-legacy peers in the same application cycle.
To make up the difference, in some cases these got-it-done-on-their-own parents try to "aid" their kids. It may work from an admissions standpoint in the short term, but in the long-run it won't.
Yeah, the kids will get admitted into UCLA ortho, OSU ortho, or XYZ ortho "unfairly." They'll get tons of $. But, I argue, to get by with less isn't good for one's character. In a Darwinian sense, give this cycle of cronyism, nepotism, and even bribery a few generations and natural selection will prey on their offspring. They'll be so softened and weakened by the privilege and special treatment. Consider the wreck of a human that is Paris Hilton.
Any thoughts on my survival-of-the-fittest theory?
It appears UCLA created a rather filthy pattern. The original post also mentioned The OSU. I had heard about that fellow, too. I believe his brother QB-ed at OSU before or while he was at OSU for dental school.
All of these examples only serve to frustrate those of us who could only follow the rules of "fair play." That is, we had no inside connections or anything especially unique to leverage. So upon hearing news about these scandals, I'm not at all surprised to read the eruption of anger, disappointment, etc. people feel about this entire process.
It's interesting that the ortho legacy applicants rarely measure up to the performance level of their accomplished parents and/or relatives. I've known a few sons of orthodontists who were wonderful in terms of work ethic, personality, and character. They deserved and worked hard for ortho admissions. However, the majority of "legacy" people I think of were definitely lacking in many areas--especially when compared to their non-legacy peers in the same application cycle.
To make up the difference, in some cases these got-it-done-on-their-own parents try to "aid" their kids. It may work from an admissions standpoint in the short term, but in the long-run it won't.
Yeah, the kids will get admitted into UCLA ortho, OSU ortho, or XYZ ortho "unfairly." They'll get tons of $. But, I argue, to get by with less isn't good for one's character. In a Darwinian sense, give this cycle of cronyism, nepotism, and even bribery a few generations and natural selection will prey on their offspring. They'll be so softened and weakened by the privilege and special treatment. Consider the wreck of a human that is Paris Hilton.
Any thoughts on my survival-of-the-fittest theory?
Dr. Joseph Leonardi Discusses Nepotism here. If we only followed his words in ortho admissions.
Interesting story on cronyism. Bill Maher is his usual irreverent self.
Interesting reading (if history interests you) about the man who coined the phrase, "survivial of the fittest."
Interesting story on cronyism. Bill Maher is his usual irreverent self.
Interesting reading (if history interests you) about the man who coined the phrase, "survivial of the fittest."
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The only reason this thread has any traction is because of Dr. Molens lame response to the News Article.
Truth be told, it is ridiculous to think that ortho really needs the most qualified candidates. Technically, someone with two left feet for hands could perform the trade of ortho. Treatment planning can easily be learned by anyone with the apptitude to graduate from dental school.
I believe the only qualifications for ortho should be...Ability to kiss a$$, nicely pressed khakis and polo golf shirt and the god given gift to bend wire nicely.
Aside from perios uniquely homogenous group of non english speaking, FDG, OMFS wannabes, orthodontists are the most clone like group of people I know.
Truth be told, it is ridiculous to think that ortho really needs the most qualified candidates. Technically, someone with two left feet for hands could perform the trade of ortho. Treatment planning can easily be learned by anyone with the apptitude to graduate from dental school.
I believe the only qualifications for ortho should be...Ability to kiss a$$, nicely pressed khakis and polo golf shirt and the god given gift to bend wire nicely.
Aside from perios uniquely homogenous group of non english speaking, FDG, OMFS wannabes, orthodontists are the most clone like group of people I know.
Most people call these types of behaviors corruption. When we look at corrupt governments, these are the kind of behaviors we see. Tyrants, despots, dictators, and some so called democratic governments epitomize the problems that these kind of behaviors bring. They are the result of selfishness, greed, and lack of moral character. Any society that allows these behaviors to take root will ultimately end up like all the others: filled with injustice, crime, poverty, poor economies, lack of technologies, innovation, or opportunities to better ones life. These are the kind of behaviors that destroy countries and economies. We are upset, because this is our profession. We want to protect it, we want it to be the best that it can be and we have an obligation to make sure that happens. We have an obligation to society and country for the same reasons. These things aren't important? Just worry about ourselves? Thats how it all starts my friend. We can each choose to be honest and to do the right thing every time. It may not change the world right away but if we all did these things, everything would be different. Not only is it smart from a purely altruistic viewpoint but on an individual level it is much more beneficial for each of us in the long run to behave in an honest and morally upright manner. The personal benefits that will accrue to you include, respect, a more successful carrier, friends and acquaintances who will have similar values will gravitate to you, and you will leave this life with no regrets.
drhobie7,
Anyone who'd consider you part of the problem (not the solution) is a *****. From my observation, you are merely commenting on the disaster the ortho people created for themselves and their cronies.
Nobody needs to feel sorry for them. They were having lots of fun for a long time. Now, it appears to be less fun and even a little embarrassing. Why would they be embarrassed, even humiliated if nobody behaved badly?
To some, you are easy to drag into this. Yet, that's largely because involving/blaming you deflects attention from the wrongdoing itself and places some false stigma on what I consider valuable internal perspectives.
Integrity needs to be restored to the process. And not just at UCLA. Everyone needs to raise standards.
Without transparency and a free press, we'd face the hopeless situation of economic mobility found in many parts of the world.
Keep up the good work and keep schucking teeth!
Anyone who'd consider you part of the problem (not the solution) is a *****. From my observation, you are merely commenting on the disaster the ortho people created for themselves and their cronies.
Nobody needs to feel sorry for them. They were having lots of fun for a long time. Now, it appears to be less fun and even a little embarrassing. Why would they be embarrassed, even humiliated if nobody behaved badly?
To some, you are easy to drag into this. Yet, that's largely because involving/blaming you deflects attention from the wrongdoing itself and places some false stigma on what I consider valuable internal perspectives.
Integrity needs to be restored to the process. And not just at UCLA. Everyone needs to raise standards.
Without transparency and a free press, we'd face the hopeless situation of economic mobility found in many parts of the world.
Keep up the good work and keep schucking teeth!
i am not blaming you for what happened. i am saying that your comments invoke a shotgun approach that hurts all residents, even the extremely qualified ones. the whole scandal is revolved around the fact that certain applicants may have bribed their way in who werent qualified. true or not, it hurts all those applicants who ARE qualified. my point of the board scores was to show you that many of these residents are qualified. in the daily bruin article, it states that they had sub standard boards. im sure maybe a couple may not have the best scores, but the majority of the residents have competitive scores.
as far as ethical standards in dental school, there are many who have cheated or received preferential treatment from faculty. this happens at all schools. anyone in dental school knows this. the whole point of residency is to specialize and practice successfully in the future. if these residents arent good and bribed their way into a program they dont belong in, they may not do well in the future. its not justice, its just reality.
i do care for my friends and aquantances who are qualified and have to go through this ordeal and endure the tirade of negativity. its hard for them to validate themselves. all i am saying is that its ok for you or anyone to voice their opinions. but you are adding fuel to the fire that may be hurting many who dont deserve to be flamed. i agree that changes and complaints should be directed at the adminstration.
however, changes have been implemented and now the residents are the ones who bear a scarlet letter, deserved or not. you or anyone is free to voice their opinions on any forum. but if you have or "had" friends in the ortho program, you are drawing a lot of negativity to their situation. whether they are involved or not. what if this had happened in the os program? would you like being clumped into that group when you are qualified?
i am not disputing that there may have been foul play here. however, by hunting down a select few, many qualified residents get caught in the crossfire. im done with this topic and getting off my soapbox.
as far as ethical standards in dental school, there are many who have cheated or received preferential treatment from faculty. this happens at all schools. anyone in dental school knows this. the whole point of residency is to specialize and practice successfully in the future. if these residents arent good and bribed their way into a program they dont belong in, they may not do well in the future. its not justice, its just reality.
i do care for my friends and aquantances who are qualified and have to go through this ordeal and endure the tirade of negativity. its hard for them to validate themselves. all i am saying is that its ok for you or anyone to voice their opinions. but you are adding fuel to the fire that may be hurting many who dont deserve to be flamed. i agree that changes and complaints should be directed at the adminstration.
however, changes have been implemented and now the residents are the ones who bear a scarlet letter, deserved or not. you or anyone is free to voice their opinions on any forum. but if you have or "had" friends in the ortho program, you are drawing a lot of negativity to their situation. whether they are involved or not. what if this had happened in the os program? would you like being clumped into that group when you are qualified?
i am not disputing that there may have been foul play here. however, by hunting down a select few, many qualified residents get caught in the crossfire. im done with this topic and getting off my soapbox.
Damn, You ortho guys write too much. I am not going to comment on UCLAs situation or the ethical state of ortho admissions. As long as you can set up for orthognathic surgery, I'm happy.
The previously mentioned OSU resident was a second year dental student when his brother signed a letter of intent. For those who don't know football, that means his brother decided to go to OSU two full years before the Dr. was accepted to ortho! I highly doubt this contributed to the Drs acceptance to ortho or his brother's scholarship. Plus, his brother only started a few games in his career. Dr. X was a very good student and very active in extracurriculars.
This should end any rumors that he was accepted because his brother was a "prospect".
The previously mentioned OSU resident was a second year dental student when his brother signed a letter of intent. For those who don't know football, that means his brother decided to go to OSU two full years before the Dr. was accepted to ortho! I highly doubt this contributed to the Drs acceptance to ortho or his brother's scholarship. Plus, his brother only started a few games in his career. Dr. X was a very good student and very active in extracurriculars.
This should end any rumors that he was accepted because his brother was a "prospect".
A large majority of students here at UCLA feel the same as drhobie. The problem is hardly anyone has the guts to say anything in public. Those who are most quiet are the most fearful and have the most to lose by expressing their opinion. The end result? Indifference. Which is a pretty scary thing considering people are becoming a lot more flexible with their definition of ethics.
And those who are brave enough to speak out are being treated as social pariahs who need to be censored immediately. God forbid we think outside of the box.
And those who are brave enough to speak out are being treated as social pariahs who need to be censored immediately. God forbid we think outside of the box.
Before this scandal came to light, some of my friends at UCLA dental school had told me that it's impossible to get into the UCLA ortho program. Interestingly enough, this scandal helped me understand why they would say such a thing...if 1 or 2 out of 6 spots are "compromised" and if UCLA has a plenty of highly qualified students to choose from..it would be hard for students from other schools (such as myself) to get in.
Secondly, I have a friend at UCLA ortho program that I've come to know through church and I have to say that despite how this scandal might have affected the program's reputation, I have a whole renewed sense of respect for him for getting into UCLA Ortho...the old-fashioned way. Geez, it sucks that I have to qualify that at the end.
Secondly, I have a friend at UCLA ortho program that I've come to know through church and I have to say that despite how this scandal might have affected the program's reputation, I have a whole renewed sense of respect for him for getting into UCLA Ortho...the old-fashioned way. Geez, it sucks that I have to qualify that at the end.
I think I know who you're talking about. Not only is he respected by his peers, his reputation is highly regarded among dental students as well. He is truly an awesome person, teacher (my friends had him as a bench instructor) and clinician. Hopefully we're talking about the same person. He's the only ortho resident that I know of who regularly goes to church. Not to say anything special about organized religion...because I have my own opinion about that. But really, he's amazing and I feel awful he's being grouped in this "scandal."
My mom taught me not to cheat. #1: It's wrong. #2: Other people don't like it if you get caught.
Sounds like this Molen character is some role model for future applicants. He's now immortalized himself.
What a feat! Nice work, Molen (you're likely reading this).
How would you face those who struggled--even reapplying once or twice--to get into ortho? And with superior credentials? What makes you so inherently unique that you get a "special" entry into the profession?
Explain that one to some who faced the typical uncertainties & politics as they navigated the application process for non-connected students. They don't enjoy reading about stories such as yours. In fact, they get angry.
Your opinion sounds right on to me, OrthoRules. But, that's only my humble, possibly inaccurate opinion.
This is exactly what we are doing, making sure that the profession as a whole is not tarnished by the acts of a few. Defending what UCLA did is the same as accepting what OEC did or is still doing to the ortho profession. When there are only around 250 ortho match positions available in the entire nation and with many reserved as "international" spots for fundraising purposes, EVERY SEAT COUNTS!! How can we sit back and say that it's ok that hard working, well qualified students that earned their high part I scores/class ranks are rejected, yet underqualified students are able to weasel their way in?
Similar to what others have said, I do feel bad for the innocent UCLA ortho students that were accepted on merit. I can only imagine all the lies that are being fed to them and the resulting brain washing effect by their chair. But if you're in their shoes, what choices do you have? Admit the fault of the program and tarnish your reputation as well or ignore blatant evidence and deny everything? I've heard that the UCLA ortho chair is so paranoid now that he has residents conspiring against each other and tape recording each other's conversations. How can you have a positive learning environment in that kind of an atmosphere?
If I was a UCLA ortho residents, I'd be infuriated how the actions of the chair, admissions and dishonost coresidents were jepordizing my education and future career.
Match is this week - hope all of us get in. Goodluck!
I'm actually a resident at UCLA ortho, and I just want to tell you all how I feel about this whole situation.
I worked extremely hard to get accepted, overcame unimaginable adversity, and had no connections whatsoever.
And honestly I'm not infuriated. In fact, I'm still very proud to be part of UCLA ortho. I'm proud of my co-residents, my chair, my dean, my faculty.
I know many of you will write in and blast me (as is the tendency on this board).. but I figured I chime in anyway.
No one here knows UCLA ortho residents and faculty more, and simply put, my co-residents are extremely awesome. They were the reasons why I made UCLA my number one choice.. (the weather, location, stipend, and lack of tuition were a nice bonus)
The people named in the article are phenomenal people. I don't know what their board scores, etc. were, and I really don't care. They have made my experience at UCLA very enjoyable. All of them are going to be exceptional orthodontists.
I worked extremely hard to get accepted, overcame unimaginable adversity, and had no connections whatsoever.
And honestly I'm not infuriated. In fact, I'm still very proud to be part of UCLA ortho. I'm proud of my co-residents, my chair, my dean, my faculty.
I know many of you will write in and blast me (as is the tendency on this board).. but I figured I chime in anyway.
No one here knows UCLA ortho residents and faculty more, and simply put, my co-residents are extremely awesome. They were the reasons why I made UCLA my number one choice.. (the weather, location, stipend, and lack of tuition were a nice bonus)
The people named in the article are phenomenal people. I don't know what their board scores, etc. were, and I really don't care. They have made my experience at UCLA very enjoyable. All of them are going to be exceptional orthodontists.
Conspiring? Tape recording? Where did you hear that from? I have my own opinions regarding the scandal but I gotta say...I really doubt any of that is going on. And if it is, that is pretty low.
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Hi, I am one of the residents implicated in the "scandel." I refrained from posting previously because I didn't see the point. No matter what I write, people will think what they want to think. What's important is that I know the truth. But, after someone personally attacked my integrity, I have no option, but to defend myself.
I didn't know I wanted to specialize in ortho when I was in dental school. As a result, I wasn't in the top 10% of my class. However, I still had a competitive GPA. It wasn't until I was practicing in a multi-specialty office that I became interested in ortho. So, I studied my ass off and got a 93 on Part I. I will post my score if anyone needs proof. I also quit my job and did research full time for about a year under an orthodontic faculty. Some may say it was b/c I did research with an ortho faculty that I automatically got in. As you may know, working under someone who is on the admissions committee will either help you or destroy your chances. I took that risk. And, it is not like you need connections to ask a PI if you can work for them free of pay full time. It's an offer most PI's would take hands down. I have a publication to prove that I wasn't in the lab doing nothing.
As for my uncle, his donation was publicized. It was NOT under the radar. The dean sent a mass email to the whole school about the pledge. It was also in the newsletter as well as the annual report and UCLA newsroom. My aunt graduated from UCLA dental school, so he has a connection to the school. He has donated to UCLA in the past even before I even thought about specializing.
I worked extremely hard to bring my application up to par with those who knew they were going to specialize the first day they entered dental school. Why would I retake my boards and research full time if I thought I could buy a spot?
Am I automatically banned from getting into ortho b/c I wasn't in the top 10% of my class? If someone went to a non-ranked school, they could be in the bottom 10% and still get into ortho.
As I said before, in the end, you will believe what you want to believe. To say that relatives of donors bought their way in is presumptive. I didn't get in through bribery and I didn't take a spot that should go to someone more qualified. I earned that spot the old fashioned way: I worked for it.
P.S. To BestFriend: It's not appropriate to make presumptive comments and post names without factual evidence. That is slander and some consider that grounds for legal action.
I'm actually a resident at UCLA ortho, and I just want to tell you all how I feel about this whole situation.
I worked extremely hard to get accepted, overcame unimaginable adversity, and had no connections whatsoever.
And honestly I'm not infuriated. In fact, I'm still very proud to be part of UCLA ortho. I'm proud of my co-residents, my chair, my dean, my faculty.
I know many of you will write in and blast me (as is the tendency on this board).. but I figured I chime in anyway.
No one here knows UCLA ortho residents and faculty more, and simply put, my co-residents are extremely awesome. They were the reasons why I made UCLA my number one choice.. (the weather, location, stipend, and lack of tuition were a nice bonus)
The people named in the article are phenomenal people. I don't know what their board scores, etc. were, and I really don't care. They have made my experience at UCLA very enjoyable. All of them are going to be exceptional orthodontists.
I worked extremely hard to get accepted, overcame unimaginable adversity, and had no connections whatsoever.
And honestly I'm not infuriated. In fact, I'm still very proud to be part of UCLA ortho. I'm proud of my co-residents, my chair, my dean, my faculty.
I know many of you will write in and blast me (as is the tendency on this board).. but I figured I chime in anyway.
No one here knows UCLA ortho residents and faculty more, and simply put, my co-residents are extremely awesome. They were the reasons why I made UCLA my number one choice.. (the weather, location, stipend, and lack of tuition were a nice bonus)
The people named in the article are phenomenal people. I don't know what their board scores, etc. were, and I really don't care. They have made my experience at UCLA very enjoyable. All of them are going to be exceptional orthodontists.
The I-didn't-know-I-wanted-to-specialize-in-ortho is commonly used to explain away poor performance. You may have seen applicants present with this story. It may be fully true in your case, but many people don't focus during dental school because they don't have to or don't want to. But, if you've got family in ortho (is that what your uncle does?), I'd guess you'd seriously considered it and knew what you were up against years ago.
As a result of achievement below those in the top 10, you finished dental school below the top 10. That finish may have been in part a function of "not knowing" what you wanted to do. But in the end, your rank was a result of performance --as determined by UCLA's dental school--below your peers. "Not knowing" is often a tired excuse for underperforming when in fact the individual has a way out many of us didn't have.
Most unknown applicants don't get interviewed if their class ranks are poor. That's independent of their research, experience, and other factors. It's an important index.
That's why I (and others in this thread) wonder about your class rank.
As a result of achievement below those in the top 10, you finished dental school below the top 10. That finish may have been in part a function of "not knowing" what you wanted to do. But in the end, your rank was a result of performance --as determined by UCLA's dental school--below your peers. "Not knowing" is often a tired excuse for underperforming when in fact the individual has a way out many of us didn't have.
Most unknown applicants don't get interviewed if their class ranks are poor. That's independent of their research, experience, and other factors. It's an important index.
That's why I (and others in this thread) wonder about your class rank.
Some random ramblings....
Legal action??? wow...slow down here...also your bottom 10% of class at a non-ranked school comment is way off. also the i didn't want ortho until after grad comment, again poor excuse...i've heard that before. we're all told at the beginning of dental school to do well b/c we never know if and what specialty we may want in the future.
I for one (unlike many on here) DID take some parts of the Daily Bruin article with a grain of salt - i think this should be common practice nowadays with all the sensationalism in the press.
I do think you and the chief resident did deserve consideration (I don't know if you deserved getting in, but in my opinion you deserved consideration) for a spot in ortho - taking boards again a second time takes a lot of hard work and you did well - 93 that's about avg for some programs. doing full-time research for a year. kudos to that. the chief did place well at the prestigious IADR awards - although his other award seemed bogus, and why didn't he just state his ranking instead of the 10% of class statement?
You stated the donation was not under the radar, yet to others it was??? who knows what to believe. same thing goes for this "rogue alumni" that called the student. i guess until UCLA ortho officially releases a statement of their own review, or some external reviewiers come in, ppl will be skeptical about some of their grads and we'll never get to the bottom (truth) of this.
I think the crux of the whole situation revolves around the fact that there is not enough tea-bagging in ortho.
Ortho needs to take heed of the lessons learnt from their OMFS colleagues and realize that one should center their admissions process around recruiting quality tea-baggees to the program.
Ortho needs to take heed of the lessons learnt from their OMFS colleagues and realize that one should center their admissions process around recruiting quality tea-baggees to the program.
Wow this perfectly sums up the difficulty I have in believing anything that [posting identifying information is prohibited] have to say. They truly feel that this is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with their admissions. I would love for these people to step back and think long and hard what this would look like if they were standing in someone else's shoes.
These people live in a world that is so far removed from mine that it is ridiculous. The way she is like "my uncle woke up, went for a jog, donated $ 1 million to UCLA had lunch..." is hilarious. A one million dollar donation will rarely go unnoticed. Also I may be cynical but most of the time I feel that someone who donates a million dollars is looking for something in return. However in case there are any rich, altruistic individuals out there reading this post, may I suggest donating a sweet quarter million to a nice, friendly ortho resident who doesn't have a lot of rich relatives in his family. This ortho resident also doesn't enjoy listening to rich kids b#tch about being caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
just my $0.02 (which unfortunately is currently less than a Canadians' 2 cents because of a weak economy)
Let me grab that shovel from you, here take this back-hoe. Digs holes alot faster.
But the reality is, you don't need smart applicants for ortho. You don't have to be that smart to actually do orthodontics, but in OMFS, you have to have some brains, and can't be taking unqualified people through backdoor, becuase most of them won't make it (Especially the 6yr OMFS).
Aaah - the American way. When the crap starts piling up and things aren't going your way, resort to litigation or the threat thereof.
A little birdie told me something today. The poor "standout" resident who was asked to donate money for admissions in the Daily Bruin is not all clean and kosher either. Apparantly, he is a prosth guy who is an older applicant and has been in practice for a long time. I dont know why anyone would go to back to school after being out for so long. I have heard there are questions regarding his scores being way sub par. But he is "buddy-buddies" with a chair in one of UCLA's dental school's departments and some other very influential people. So this chair was asked to put pressure on ortho so he can be admitted, despite his scores and his age. Who knows what he did to get his spot.
Its funny, he was the one who broke the story to the Daily Bruin, but from what I heard he is not very qualified. Seems he took a spot up by knowing very high up people who got him a spot some how. There are other things that shocked me when I heard. I find it funny this guy is trying to be slick and fly low and thinks no one will find out.
😉
Its funny, he was the one who broke the story to the Daily Bruin, but from what I heard he is not very qualified. Seems he took a spot up by knowing very high up people who got him a spot some how. There are other things that shocked me when I heard. I find it funny this guy is trying to be slick and fly low and thinks no one will find out.
😉If this Kent Ochiai is who I think it is, he is an extremely old guy, who I use to see around prosth department at UCLA while I was a student there. I believe he has to be at least 50. But I am not sure if this is him.
A little birdie told me something today. The poor "standout" resident who was asked to donate money for admissions in the Daily Bruin is not all clean and kosher either. Apparantly, he is a prosth guy who is an older applicant and has been in practice for a long time. I dont know why anyone would go to back to school after being out for so long. I have heard there are questions regarding his scores being way sub par. But he is "buddy-buddies" with a chair in one of UCLA's dental school's departments and some other very influential people. So this chair was asked to put pressure on ortho so he can be admitted, despite his scores and his age. Who knows what he did to get his spot.
Its funny, he was the one who broke the story to the Daily Bruin, but from what I heard he is not very qualified. Seems he took a spot up by knowing very high up people who got him a spot some how. There are other things that shocked me when I heard. I find it funny this guy is trying to be slick and fly low and thinks no one will find out.
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Time to buy stock in Pop Weaver and ConAgra.
I wont cofirm that, but why would someone who has been doing prosth. for so long want to go and do ortho? Beats me. Nice way to take a spot for some other deserving candidate who will probably practice ortho for more than 10 years. 😕😀 Why go back to school unless he really hates prosth or has ortho fantasties. Makes me mad that he has to use his influence to get a spot from his old cronie buddies, then has the nerve to complain about it when some other old cronies ask him for donations. Freaking pot calling the kettle black. Some people. 👎
Time to buy stock in Pop Weaver and ConAgra.
lol...too funny
+1 for you man.My sister is a senior dental student at an east coast dental school. We've been discussing the UCLA rumors as she is currently applying to ortho programs. She said that the dean of her dental school sent out an email to the faculty addressing the UCLA Ortho issue. Indeed, many people are becoming aware of these events.
Agreed. We all need to have some standards. UCLA is an abomination and makes us all look bad. 😀
So how much money did UCLA bring in today...errrr...how was match day?
