UCSF--Avoid at all costs

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bobjonesbob said:
Certainly not a guarantee but when you look at UCSF's match list in comparison to their Step scores, it's obvious they have a strong tendency to keep their own students even when it means lowering their standards to do so. Not unique by any means but it's a little different when you're at the top in nearly every specialty.
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As with AOA, there’s a huge amount of bias in which of their students they tend to keep. It
may lower standards in terms of physician quality, but generally not in step/clinical honors terms.
 
I can't imagine how someone can do med school AND residency at UCSF. Paying $4,000/mo rent for 8-12 year straight seems crazy.
 
TRexLife4 said:
I can't imagine how someone can do med school AND residency at UCSF. Paying $4,000/mo rent for 8-12 year straight seems crazy.
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Who pays 4k/month for rent? I paid 1500/month, and I think average is around 1200-1500. It’s honestly not that bad imo.
 
differentiating said:
Who pays 4k/month for rent? I paid 1500/month, and I think average is around 1200-1500. It’s honestly not that bad imo.
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I did a quick search and found this listing, $2850 for 1 BR. We paid $2500 for 3 BR 15+ years back.

sfbay.craigslist.org

Large one bedroom near UCSF

Large one bedroom apartment on Irving and 6th ave. Near UCSF Close to USF Available now The apartment is in a 10 unit corner building. Hard wood floors. Large walk in closet in the bedroom Built in...
sfbay.craigslist.org
 
srk2021 said:
I did a quick search and found this listing, $2850 for 1 BR. We paid $2500 for 3 BR 15+ years back.

sfbay.craigslist.org

Large one bedroom near UCSF

Large one bedroom apartment on Irving and 6th ave. Near UCSF Close to USF Available now The apartment is in a 10 unit corner building. Hard wood floors. Large walk in closet in the bedroom Built in...
sfbay.craigslist.org
Click to expand...

Sure, but that’s one listing- it depends a lot on what you’re willing to do. Most people split 2-3 beds and pay the amounts I mentioned above. When I was apartment-hunting, I only focused on listings 1500 or less, and still had quite a few to visit. I probably could’ve gotten something cheaper if I wasn’t in a hurry to find a place before my next rotation started. The most I knew someone to pay was 1900, and they chose a swanky apartment super close to campus.

There are affordable apartments if you look and you don’t need all the bells and whistles.
 
differentiating said:
Sure, but that’s one listing- it depends a lot on what you’re willing to do. Most people split 2-3 beds and pay the amounts I mentioned above. When I was apartment-hunting, I only focused on listings 1500 or less, and still had quite a few to visit. I probably could’ve gotten something cheaper if I wasn’t in a hurry to find a place before my next rotation started. The most I knew someone to pay was 1900, and they chose a swanky apartment super close to campus.

There are affordable apartments if you look and you don’t need all the bells and whistles.
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With more and more non-trad applicants, splitting a place may NOT be an option. We were there for residency/fellowship years so needed 3 BR given the family size.
 
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srk2021 said:
With more and more non-trad applicants, splitting a place may be an option. We were there for residency/fellowship years so needed 3 BR given the family size.
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Most people in relationships that I knew (both trads and non-trads) had at least 1 person’s salary contributing as well, in addition to loans. A large family and/or one parent staying at home would be quite difficult to manage.
 
differentiating said:
Most people in relationships that I knew (both trads and non-trads) had at least 1 person’s salary contributing as well, in addition to loans. A large family and/or one parent staying at home would be quite difficult to manage.
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yeah, you need a tech industry partner to survive in SF!
 
srk2021 said:
yeah, you need a tech industry partner to survive in SF!
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Only in those extreme cases I mentioned before. Otherwise, 50k is certainly sufficient, especially with any sort of additional income from a partner. Most of our nontrads were just fine.
 
My god, is Pass/Fail rotations the next big thing? And they're talking about ending numerical scores on step1...

Maybe in 2025 there will literally be UCSF applicants sending an ERAS with nothing but "Pass" for all of preclinical, clinical and USMLE. Wild.
 
efle said:
My god, is Pass/Fail rotations the next big thing? And they're talking about ending numerical scores on step1...

Maybe in 2025 there will literally be UCSF applicants sending an ERAS with nothing but "Pass" for all of preclinical, clinical and USMLE. Wild.
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And they'll still match very comfortably in anywhere they want. Especially in those juicy Big 4 IM programs :hungry::hungry:
 
Lawper said:
Wait how is this thread 4 pages already? Can I get a tl;dr? 😕
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tl;dr

1. Don't go to UCSF because of reasons
2. California and its inhabitants are rich heathens, beware
3. Ok ok, but where is actually good in this godforsaken country?
4. Marijuana. Discuss.
5. Debating the merits of parental involvement
6. Circled back around to UCSF and the bay area. the answer is money,
 
rollingstoneshill said:
tl;dr

1. Don't go to UCSF because of reasons
2. California and its inhabitants are rich heathens, beware
3. Ok ok, but where is actually good in this godforsaken country?
4. Marijuana. Discuss.
5. Debating the merits of parental involvement
6. Circled back around to UCSF and the bay area. the answer is money,
Click to expand...
Beauty of being anonymous on social media.
 
Moving to SF is not the smartest decision you can make as an incoming medical student period. It is literally THE most expensive city in the US right now with a housing crisis. Many college grads are starting jobs that are paying >>>$150,000 and they are just looking for places that are slightly better than college dorms.

You should move there when you have a job offer that gives you at least >$100,000 as a single person. It would be dumb to complain later on in life to have so much debt. And literally no one will sympathize with you if the reason why you are so broke is because you decided to move to the most expensive place while being a medical student. Even if you end up matching ortho and after 4 years in med school, 5 years in residency, you finally start making $500,000 as a new ortho attending, you probably should still not move to SF. There are plenty of higher up tech workers who make way more than that amount who are younger than you and want to live in the same apartments/houses that you would want.
 
rollingstoneshill said:
tl;dr

1. Don't go to UCSF because of reasons
2. California and its inhabitants are rich heathens, beware
3. Ok ok, but where is actually good in this godforsaken country?
4. Marijuana. Discuss.
5. Debating the merits of parental involvement
6. Circled back around to UCSF and the bay area. the answer is money,
Click to expand...
Let’s go back to how rich people suck just for one second with this meme I just found:
 

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eatprayloverun said:
New curriculum is a major weakness. Far too condensed. First class with the new curriculum had a much lower average step one score. They are also getting rid of pass/fail during 3rd year, which sounds great in theory, but makes it that much harder to get into a competitive specialty.
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OK I know this thread is kinda old news now but I haven't been on SDN in a while. Just wanted to point out some misinformation you're spreading.. the step 1 average went up with Bridges. Whether or not you attribute that to the curriculum is up to you but taking it after 3rd year helps. Not a UCSF specific thing.
 
MemeLord said:
I know I have heard this anecdotally from many students/schools, but do you know of any studies or anything like that which can put solid numbers to this?
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There's a paper in Academic Medicine about other schools that did it that our admins cited ad nauseum to reassure us to not have a meltdown haha. I believe it was published in the past 2-3 years. I never read it though, sorry
 
differentiating said:
Basically, honors often went to the kids aiming for competitive specialties (to help their apps) and popular kids, so oftentimes not people who actually were any good at the medicine. To be blunt, our AOA list was a joke - only 2 people on there earned it, and the rest aren’t people I’d feel comfortable referring anyone to based on my experiences with them on the wards.
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I suspect this probably happens at my school and many others.

I can only imagine how bad the PC/SJW scene is at UCSF.... which nobody mentioned in this thread :whistle:

Engrailed said:
How would you guys rank the UC schools
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Depends what you want.
UCSF = most prestigious, but the Bay Area is out of control.
UCSD is in a sweet spot, but places mostly regionally in Cali (which is what most grads want anyway).
UCLA... you have to live in LA.

Irvine, Riverside, Davis = who cares.


srk2021 said:
I did a quick search and found this listing, $2850 for 1 BR. We paid $2500 for 3 BR 15+ years back.

sfbay.craigslist.org

Large one bedroom near UCSF

Large one bedroom apartment on Irving and 6th ave. Near UCSF Close to USF Available now The apartment is in a 10 unit corner building. Hard wood floors. Large walk in closet in the bedroom Built in...
sfbay.craigslist.org
Click to expand...

My uncle had a rent-controlled 1BR in Nob Hill with views of the GG Bridge for $1000 .... in 2000. He said the Bay Area was awesome circa 1995 and started the long downhill slide when the dot-com boom started up shortly afterward.

emiko said:
Moving to SF is not the smartest decision you can make as an incoming medical student period. It is literally THE most expensive city in the US right now with a housing crisis. Many college grads are starting jobs that are paying >>>$150,000 and they are just looking for places that are slightly better than college dorms.
Click to expand...

Moving to SF is not a smart decision to make as an incoming resident or student, unless you have a partner who has a good job there. Moving to the Bay Area as an attending is not feasible unless you're part of a high stress power couple who will be both making good money.

If money is a huge issue, should we not rule out medical schools in Boston and New York too? Bye-bye HMS, Columbia P&S, etc.
 
solitarius said:
If money is a huge issue, should we not rule out medical schools in Boston and New York too? Bye-bye HMS, Columbia P&S, etc.
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As someone who money is the top concern, I only applied Stanford, Harvard and NYU for the sole reason of “why not.” Every other school in an expensive area is a supreme negatory, boss. I know many applicants like this.
 
@srk2021 I just watched a TechLead video where he was talking about needing to pay out $4k for an apartment in San Francisco. The only way they were going to get a house within his budget would be to buy a destroyed home and basically renovate it. It's crazy how a lead tech for Facebook making around $500,000 was talking about housing in the area as being outside of his budget.
 
Select All That Apply said:
@srk2021 I just watched a TechLead video where he was talking about needing to pay out $4k for an apartment in San Francisco. The only way they were going to get a house within his budget would be to buy a destroyed home and basically renovate it. It's crazy how a lead tech for Facebook making around $500,000 was talking about housing in the area as being outside of his budget.
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Not saying SF is affordable, and I'm certainly not a math or finance major, but please explain how $50k/yr. for housing is outside the budget of someone making $500k/yr.? Most normal people in most parts of the country would love to only have to pay 10% of their income on housing!! I really love the sense of entitlement that would cause someone making half a million dollars per year to think an apartment should cost less than $4k/mo. Personally, I think a Tech Lead should cost less than $40k/month! 🙂
 
@KnightDoc I understand where you are coming from with your response. But I will put it this way. Why would you have to necessarily pay more just because you are earning more? Your argument is consistent with income v. expense, but falls prey to lifestyle inflation. If you become interested in FIRE then you have to acknowledge that any cost is impeding you from turning that into a long term investment. Also if Patrick is telling the truth in his videos then he makes around $1 million annual with the other half of his income coming from investments and passive income.
 
Select All That Apply said:
@KnightDoc I understand where you are coming from with your response. But I will put it this way. Why would you have to necessarily pay more just because you are earning more? Your argument is consistent with income v. expense, but falls prey to lifestyle inflation. If you become interested in FIRE then you have to acknowledge that any cost is impeding you from turning that into a long term investment. Also if Patrick is telling the truth in his videos then he makes around $1 million annual with the other half of his income coming from investments and passive income.
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Of course -- your rent shouldn't be based on your income (at least not in a capitalist society). Still, it's pretty obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to complain that 10% of that per year in rent is unaffordable, when the average American is lucky to pay less than 30% of their income in housing costs. High COL in the Bay Area is driven by those high incomes; it's not random, and clearly it's "affordable" since it is easily paid by many of those paying it.

My comments had absolutely nothing to do with FIRE, and I certainly don't recommend SF for anyone looking for a reasonable COL, but, it is what it is, and I just thought it was obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to be whining about it, when it is people making $500K per year driving it. I also agree with what you say about lifestyle inflation, but, that too is what it is - namely, people with relatively high incomes or assets chasing scarce goods (SF apartments, Lamborghinis, etc.) and pricing the rest of us out of them.
 
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KnightDoc said:
Of course -- your rent shouldn't be based on your income (at least not in a capitalist society). Still, it's pretty obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to complain that 10% of that per year in rent is unaffordable, when the average American is lucky to pay less than 30% of their income in housing costs. High COL in the Bay Area is driven by those high incomes; it's not random, and clearly it's "affordable" since it is easily paid by many of those paying it.

My comments had absolutely nothing to do with FIRE, and I certainly don't recommend SF for anyone looking for a reasonable COL, but, it is what it is, and I just thought it was obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to be whining about it, when it is people making $500K per year driving it. I also agree with what you say about lifestyle inflation, but, that too is what it is - namely, people with relatively high incomes or assets chasing scarce goods (SF apartments, Lamborghinis, etc.) and pricing the rest of us out of them.
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Preach
 
KnightDoc said:
Of course -- your rent shouldn't be based on your income (at least not in a capitalist society). Still, it's pretty obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to complain that 10% of that per year in rent is unaffordable, when the average American is lucky to pay less than 30% of their income in housing costs. High COL in the Bay Area is driven by those high incomes; it's not random, and clearly it's "affordable" since it is easily paid by many of those paying it.

My comments had absolutely nothing to do with FIRE, and I certainly don't recommend SF for anyone looking for a reasonable COL, but, it is what it is, and I just thought it was obnoxious for someone making $500K per year to be whining about it, when it is people making $500K per year driving it. I also agree with what you say about lifestyle inflation, but, that too is what it is - namely, people with relatively high incomes or assets chasing scarce goods (SF apartments, Lamborghinis, etc.) and pricing the rest of us out of them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, 4k/month is not a hardship if you’re making 500k. I paid 1500/month on <50k/year loans and could survive fairly comfortably; there’s a lot more wiggle room in his case. It’s like the difference between my tech brother and me looking for housing in SF - he was complaining about the prices because they were high compared to less desirable cities even though he could afford them, but I was looking at cheaper apartments because I was trying to avoid excessive debt.
 
So glad they havent even sent me a secondary 😆 🤔:flame:
 
TheDavidLettermanShow said:
Re-hashing this thread. I'm currently a first year medical school student at UCSF. I agree with the OP. I personally am not a big fan of the curriculum. The faculty are excellent but how the content is structured is not my cup of tea.
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What exactly you didn't like about the curriculum?
 
TheDavidLettermanShow said:
I agree with what you said. I think my feelings for the virtual curriculum and being in my room nearly all the time is translating towards a disliking of the school. So everyone, take what I said with a grain of salt. I'll post another opinion in a year, when hopefully things aren't virtual
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Year is too long, come back in March when current applicants are ready to do PTE or CTE ☺️
 
HopeP said:
What you called the structure on road to reduce speed!
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Correct!!! What about the internet makes you think this is a road???? You appear to be lost, and to have taken a wrong turn on whatever road you came from. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
goaliethrowaway said:
I'm also a current UCSF M1 who would like to provide an alternative perspective:

- I don't think having NBME based exams is a good thing; I didn't come to medical school to only score well on my boards and I don't think Step 1 averages are necessarily indicative of a school's quality. Many students at UCSF are also interested in primary care specialties which have a lower step average, so there is confound here.
- I think you will agree with me as a current student that UCSF's curriculum prepares you well to be a clinician, and arguably with Step 1 moving to P/F and Step 2CK taking its place, this will be an advantage for UCSF students on the boards/in the match.
- No sessions are required except for small groups. Especially with zoom classes, you can skip most lectures and watch later on x2 speed if that's your preference.
- Virtual school sucks--I'm with you on that. But that's definitely not unique to UCSF. Most medical schools are either entirely online or largely virtual right now.

Personally, I think UCSF is well positioned to adapt to coming changes (Step 1 P/F, pandemic) due to its clinically strong curriculum and name brand. The resources here, as you alluded to, are endless with faculty who are leaders in their fields. Most importantly, I do genuinely believe that the culture of medicine is less hierarchical/malignant here relative to other top programs on the opposite coast, and my hypothesis is that this largely stems from the more progressive leaning leadership/environment. This more easy-going attitude translates to the faculty, administration, and even the student body, and that's a huge boon for wellness.

The original criticism from this thread was regarding the high debt burden from attending UCSF, which is relatively less resourceful when compared to its private school competitors. Honestly this is 100% valid—COL here is really high and there are few if any full tuition/cost of attendance scholarships available to students due to UCSF being a public school. With that being said, I do think the in state tuition helps a ton to bring down costs, which makes UCSF actually cheaper than wealthier private schools assuming full tuition/COA scholarships don't come into the equation.
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Stupid question here -- isn't UCLA a T10 public school in CA? Does that prevent it from offering a decent number of generous scholarships? At the end of the day, including everything offered to acceptees, is UCSF really actually cheaper? I think you are correct for IS, which probably explains its 76% yield. Not so much for OOS, which probably explains the 31% yield there, even though we are still talking about the same super laid back T10 med school!
 
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