UF's Master in MTM

[Rattlergirl53]

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I was just recently told about this by a classmate and went to the site to read up some more information on it. But does anybody know someone that has done it and how will it help as far as getting a clinical job compared to those with residencies.

 

[PharmDStudman]

I was just recently told about this by a classmate and went to the site to read up some more information on it. But does anybody know someone that has done it and how will it help as far as getting a clinical job compared to those with residencies.

I wonder what the utility of this degree actually is? I think going back to school to become a PA would be a smarter move. PA definitely seems to be a more secure field. Plus I'm sure more MDs would love to hire a pharmD/PA. I'm thinking this is the best way to go given the downward spiral pharmacy seems to be heading in 😱

 

[PharmaTope]

I was just recently told about this by a classmate and went to the site to read up some more information on it. But does anybody know someone that has done it and how will it help as far as getting a clinical job compared to those with residencies.

most residencies are hospital based i believe. you wont be doing MTM there. i dont think it will do much to help you get a residency to be honest or a clinical job.

these days most people are held to this "idea" that you MUST be a PharmD and MUST have 2 years of residency to do clinical work.

 

[dingerx]

I was just recently told about this by a classmate and went to the site to read up some more information on it. But does anybody know someone that has done it and how will it help as far as getting a clinical job compared to those with residencies.

UF = joke

 

[dingerx]

I wonder what the utility of this degree actually is? I think going back to school to become a PA would be a smarter move. PA definitely seems to be a more secure field. Plus I'm sure more MDs would love to hire a pharmD/PA. I'm thinking this is the best way to go given the downward spiral pharmacy seems to be heading in 😱

Downward spiral??? I get calls all of the time from recruiters and have no troubles getting hospital shifts. I'm working 70+ hours/week right now. Why so doom and gloom?

 

[owlegrad]

UF = joke

😱 😡

 

[dingerx]

😱 😡

UF's programs in pharmacy are what's wrong with our educational structure. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you know what you are doing. A residency in Managed Care is a better way to go because you get real-life, direct experience. Just my opinion.

 

[rxlea]

I have to say that I am not a big fan of online programs...I wish there was a reliable way of measuring the difference between in person/distance learning.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

God lord, there are so many ignorant/unsupported statements in this thread. I don't know where to begin.

I dont know anything about this particular master's program, but I do know that UF is not "a joke." Not at the undergrad, graduate, doctoral or professional doctoral level. I have several BSpharm friends doing their PharmD through the distance pathway and it's pretty darn rigorous. To dismiss an entire university as epitomizing what's wrong with our education system is silly and frankly, unsupportable in this context.

As far as Tope's post - not all residencies are hospital based and even many hospital based residencies have MTM components. Of the five residencies I applyed for, 4 of the 5 included MTM. I ended up choosing one that is 80% NOT hospital based. MTM is the largest component of the longitudinal rotations.

Someone suggested a residency in managed care... I don't think that's necessarily interchangeable with this master's program. Some managed care residencies include MTM and some don't. Maybe you meant a residency in Amb Care? I think that's a closer match for someone who wants to do MTM and work directly with patients.

Finally, validated research HAS been done on distance learning. It's ongoing. I was involved in a long term project during my master's degree and that was 10 years ago. It's not as if distance learning is some new animal that has sprung up in the last few years. It's been around in various forms for decades.

I'm also not sure of the utility of this master's program, and I wouldn't recommend it to a new grad as a way to guarantee a job in an otherwise tight market. I do think that for an established practitioner looking to expand their skill set or perhaps qualify for a performance incentive at work, it might be a valid credential to obtain.

 

[rxlea]

I certainly don't think UF is a "joke" by any means. I would like to see the data comparing online/in person, though. My perception is based on my experience with students who went through online programs- mostly nursing. I am not dissing the school... I know that Creighton's program is very rigorous too and totally solid. I can't imagine UF being different. And I don't think "online" is new at all- I've been around too. ... But when it comes to professional programs like the PharmD, I'd like to see if there is a difference.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I certainly don't think UF is a "joke" by any means. I would like to see the data comparing online/in person, though. My perception is based on my experience with students who went through online programs- mostly nursing. I am not dissing the school... I know that Creighton's program is very rigorous too and totally solid. I can't imagine UF being different. And I don't think "online" is new at all- I've been around too. ... But when it comes to professional programs like the PharmD, I'd like to see if there is a difference.

Someone posted some stats at some point about Creighton's online vs. on campus pathway. It's been a few years. I believe outcomes were similar.

I don't think UF has a completely online PharmD program for traditional students. The PharmD completion program for licensed pharmacists is mostly distance education but with practical components supervised by community based preceptors.

From the projects I've been involved with, data indicates that there is nothing magical about sitting in a classroom listening to lectures. Outcomes from distance learning can be equal/superior to those from campus based programs, depending on the quality/motivation of the student and the quality of instruction.

 

[rxlea]

Someone posted some stats at some point about Creighton's online vs. on campus pathway. It's been a few years. I believe outcomes were similar.

I don't think UF has a completely online PharmD program for traditional students. The PharmD completion program for licensed pharmacists is mostly distance education but with practical components supervised by community based preceptors.

From the projects I've been involved with, data indicates that there is nothing magical about sitting in a classroom listening to lectures. Outcomes from distance learning can be equal/superior to those from campus based programs, depending on the quality/motivation of rhw student and the quality of instruction.

Interesting... So, when you were looking at "online" programs, were the lectures taped or were there lectures at all? I can see that there wouldn't be a difference at all if online/in person are receiving the same instruction. I am just curious about the "discussion" component- my experience is only based on my school of course. But, a lot of our learning comes from small discussions, particularly case studies. I wonder how they incorporate that into an entirely online program. My experience with online discussion boards for classes in undergrad was very underwhelming with students only posting the bare minimum required to get their participation points.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Interesting... So, when you were looking at "online" programs, were the lectures taped or were there lectures at all? I can see that there wouldn't be a difference at all if online/in person are receiving the same instruction. I am just curious about the "discussion" component- my experience is only based on my school of course. But, a lot of our learning comes from small discussions, particularly case studies. I wonder how they incorporate that into an entirely online program. My experience with online discussion boards for classes in undergrad was very underwhelming with students only posting the bare minimum required to get their participation points.

Well, the majority of lecture-based classes have very little "in class" discussion anyway, particularly at the undergraduate level. And I was involved with these projects ten years ago during my master's program. The technology has evolved substantially in that time. Maybe someone who has participated in distance learning more recently will offer some input.

 

[owlegrad]

Huh, I guess I am somewhat familiar with UF's system, can't speak to any others though.


All of our lectures are online. We go to campus for labs, presentations, discussions (overrated, IMO), exams, or any other activity that requires our presence. At first I was not a fan of watching my lectures on a computer, but frankly, what is the difference? I can pause to go to the bathroom and I don't have to get dressed. I would hate to go back to having to go to class just to have slides read to me.

I can't speak directly to any of the programs we offer current practitioners, except to say that I personally know some of the faculty involved in that program. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it had value for the pharmacists participating. I have no doubt they receive quality instruction and are only passed through the program if they meet the requirements for doing so. Wither or not it actually does have value, I have no idea. That is above my pay grade. But I have no doubt about the quality of the programs that are offered here, they are some of the best in the world.

If anyone thinks that offering classes or programs with an online component is somehow inferior, well I think the burden of proof is on them to prove that. The comment about people only doing the bare minimum is valid - but that problem exists in any program, it is hardly indicative of online programs.

 

[pharmschooler]

If anyone thinks that offering classes or programs with an online component is somehow inferior, well I think the burden of proof is on them to prove that.

I think a lot of this depends on the individual student. For some, online components work very well, and these students are often very driven, motivated, and crunched for time. For others, online (and distance learning in general) is not a positive experience and they learn less than they might in a classroom situation.

 

[rxlea]

All of our lectures are online. We go to campus for labs, presentations, discussions (overrated, IMO), exams, or any other activity that requires our presence. At first I was not a fan of watching my lectures on a computer, but frankly, what is the difference?

Well, what about live interaction? Asking questions in class? Do you just e-mail all your questions to your professors? That's certainly different... and if you ask a really good question, how does the rest of the class benefit from the answer/clarification? How many students go to lecture?

I can't speak directly to any of the programs we offer current practitioners, except to say that I personally know some of the faculty involved in that program. They wouldn't do it if they didn't think it had value for the pharmacists participating. I have no doubt they receive quality instruction and are only passed through the program if they meet the requirements for doing so. Wither or not it actually does have value, I have no idea. That is above my pay grade. But I have no doubt about the quality of the programs that are offered here, they are some of the best in the world.

If anyone thinks that offering classes or programs with an online component is somehow inferior, well I think the burden of proof is on them to prove that. The comment about people only doing the bare minimum is valid - but that problem exists in any program, it is hardly indicative of online programs.

I disagree in part with this statement. Yes, there will always be students doing the bare minimum wherever you go. I have taken a lot of online classes as a post bac because I was a non-trad, working adult. I also took all of my undergraduate courses in person at the university. I have concluded that there is something to be gained with in class, "live" discussion that can be lacking in many online classes.

I have found the online course discussion boards to be nothing more than a bunch of little, insignificant blurbs and one-liners to get participation points. No deep though went into most of the posts. There were a few classes where I really tried to get other students to engage in discussion on a specific topic, but my efforts were futile. Granted, these were undergraduate courses and not part of any degree program (just general education courses and some pre-reqs) so that is probably a major reason for that. In contrast, the discussions I had as part of my undergraduate degree program were fruitful. Similarly, the discussions we have in pharmacy school are great. Students ask a lot of good questions and sometimes the prof will go off onto an aside that gives us a lot of really great info. Furthermore, I get to hear about my classmates' experiences. I find this really useful and I learn a lot from discussion groups- which I don't think are overrated at all. But, that might just be a difference in opinion.

As for online degree programs... I am just skeptical about the consistency of the education. I have no doubt that UF and Creighton do a good job (I work with some RPhs who did the Creighton distance learning pathway and they are great pharmacists). Those schools probably have the experienced faculty that make it work. But, I have worked with some nurses who went through those online, accelerated programs and I have to say, I am not impressed. Whether that is a function of the online learning or the short duration of the program, I don't know. What I do know is that seeing billboards for all these "100% online!" degree programs even from the four year university is a bit unnerving. I always imagined college as somewhere you go to learn not only about whatever you are learning from your degree program, but about other people and their perspectives. This transition to sitting at home in your pajamas to listen to lectures seems odd to me- like not a true college experience. And how are people going to view these degrees? What would people say about an "online" medical degree?

If there was an existing valid, reliable measurement for online/in person post-degree performance or whatever, maybe I would feel better about it. If there is something like that, I would love to see it. I just think that doing most of a degree online can lead to the potential watering down of the curriculum and learning. Not that it happens at UF, but I do believe it happens in other degree programs....

I do agree with the above poster... a lot of it also depends on the student. If you have someone that is highly motivated, they will probably do well with a more "self pace" learning style, anyway.

 

[owlegrad]

Well, what about live interaction? Asking questions in class? Do you just e-mail all your questions to your professors? That's certainly different... and if you ask a really good question, how does the rest of the class benefit from the answer/clarification? How many students go to lecture?

Fair questions, although I don't think questions asked in class are significantly more insight than those asked on the discussion boards - they are all basically junk IMO. They either were addressed in lecture - perhaps several times, revolve around the professor misspeaking, or the student is trying to show off how smart they are - I am sure I can on one hand the number of truly insightful questions I have heard/seen asked in my academic career. Sometimes a professor misspeaks or makes a mistake - most questions somehow revolve around clearing up those mistakes, which is fair, but hardly anything that requires face to face interaction.

To answer your question we can ask our professors questions on the discussion board - if we send it by email most professors just post the Q&A on the discussion board. Some professors do not even allow us to use email - you are only permitted to use the discussion board.

VERY few students attend lecture. In some classes we are not even given the opportunity to go to class.

We have interactions with each other and our campus preceptors for live discussions and many other activities. It's nothing special, IMO.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I hate in-class questions. I almost never find them insightful or helpful. They are usually either some gunner's way of showing off or someone demonstrating their failure to listen to the professor.

Likewise, I'm am usually not impressed with group discussions. I find that the majority of people say nothing and a few gunners show off. I think that case discussions are OK learning tools, but aren't super helpful in teaching someone how to practice in the real world. You pick cases apart and rank the patient's zillion problems and break them down in minute detail. But in real life practice (as I saw during APPE), you need to learn to focus in on the most crucial factors affecting the patient. In my patient appointments on my last rotation, we had time to maybe address three things. Anything more than that bogs down the patient and the physician.

But I also hate groupwork. So maybe I'm just not into collaborative learning?

 

[tungsten87]

in-class interactions are overrated. i agree with the post above and would say that maybe 5-10% of questions asked in class are either show-off type or something that could be answered by google in a matter of seconds. I attend a school that has lectures live and online. After attending every class for the first half of my first semester I realized how useless/inefficient it was for most courses.. any question can be asked on the discussion board and the profs usually answer within 12 hours, often less. In reality, all you need are the power-points, wiki/wikidoc, and pubmed.

 

[owlegrad]

What a bunch of cynics we are.

 

[pharm B]

I actually really appreciate having in-class participation, if only because there are chances to get things cleared up. We had a professor teaching seratonergics the other day, and she had the same receptor identified as both pre- and post-synaptic, and said we should remember what receptors are where while preparing for our exam. When I asked which one this particular receptor was, she said "I... 'm not sure. I'll get back to you all on that."

Besides, classes like Law and Ethics lend themselves to a forum format.

Statistics classes on the other hand... 🙄

 

[rxlea]

I actually really appreciate having in-class participation, if only because there are chances to get things cleared up. We had a professor teaching seratonergics the other day, and she had the same receptor identified as both pre- and post-synaptic, and said we should remember what receptors are where while preparing for our exam. When I asked which one this particular receptor was, she said "I... 'm not sure. I'll get back to you all on that."

Besides, classes like Law and Ethics lend themselves to a forum format.

Statistics classes on the other hand... 🙄

Same here...It would be so boring just to watch recorded lectures. Yeah, there are people that ask stupid questions but I really don't care if they do. Usually the prof will go on to explain something further and maybe add in more information that he/she othwerwise wouldn't have. A couple of our classes really get into good discussion and it makes it a lot of fun and I learn a heck of a lot. It might be that those profs are just really good or something. But, I have appreciated our case discussions and discussions in our patient assessment and communications classes a LOT. Could depend on the school's curriculum, too... I guess there are a lot of factors.

Plus when you go to school with people everyday, you get to know them well, have lunch together, study together, hang out...I can also chat up my profs on a regular basis, interact with the med/public health/nursing students lots, drop in on seminars, and much more. I wouldn't trade that for anything.

Personally, I don't think I would do well with distance learning. Not enough interaction.

 

[dingerx]

God lord, there are so many ignorant/unsupported statements in this thread. I don't know where to begin.

I dont know anything about this particular master's program, but I do know that UF is not "a joke." Not at the undergrad, graduate, doctoral or professional doctoral level. I have several BSpharm friends doing their PharmD through the distance pathway and it's pretty darn rigorous. To dismiss an entire university as epitomizing what's wrong with our education system is silly and frankly, unsupportable in this context.

As far as Tope's post - not all residencies are hospital based and even many hospital based residencies have MTM components. Of the five residencies I applyed for, 4 of the 5 included MTM. I ended up choosing one that is 80% NOT hospital based. MTM is the largest component of the longitudinal rotations.

Someone suggested a residency in managed care... I don't think that's necessarily interchangeable with this master's program. Some managed care residencies include MTM and some don't. Maybe you meant a residency in Amb Care? I think that's a closer match for someone who wants to do MTM and work directly with patients.

Finally, validated research HAS been done on distance learning. It's ongoing. I was involved in a long term project during my master's degree and that was 10 years ago. It's not as if distance learning is some new animal that has sprung up in the last few years. It's been around in various forms for decades.

I'm also not sure of the utility of this master's program, and I wouldn't recommend it to a new grad as a way to guarantee a job in an otherwise tight market. I do think that for an established practitioner looking to expand their skill set or perhaps qualify for a performance incentive at work, it might be a valid credential to obtain.

How much MTM experience do you have; out of curiosity? I did not do a masters in MTM or whatever and can tell you that everybody I know has not done anything like this. I have 3+ years of PBM experience, almost 4 years of clinical experience, and 2 years of pharma experience and have never seen anybody with this type of "education." I am simply pointing out that a Masters in MTM makes no sense. What are you going to do? Become a billing expert? I could hire somebody for 30K a year to do coding and billing to take care of everything or an office manager that is already in place. That is why it is a joke! Your last paragraph is my reasoning for calling it that. While UF is at it, why don't they start a Ph.D. in cake eating... Same utility. Not being negative, just realistic because I don't want to see people get off track or scammed out of money. Go for a residency if you want to have a chance to do MTM.

 

[pharmatrope1234]

The person running the 'progressive' MTM program at UF gave a talk at my school some time ago. Their program is primarily phone-based and serves many persons of very low income.