Unable to apply (too poor); alternatives?

[ngrd2]

Short version: I'm 40, finished all but one prereq, and everything about my application looks great but I don't have the money to apply and need advice.

Long version: Sorry to ask a new version of a question I already posted here, but things have more or less fallen apart. I "look good" on paper with my GPA and ECs and so on, but I don't have enough research experience, which is the minor problem, and I can't afford the application process at all, and if I do, I can afford to pay for school if I get in, but there's no way I'd even be able to afford to move to whatever city I'd need to.

I don't have any family or friends or credit cards or, most importantly, savings. I'm on SSDI. I need an extra year of school in order to make a pretty good shot at acceptance a *really* good shot, but I hit my loan ceiling. I don't have great credit so I can't afford any more school, I can't afford a car, can't afford travel expenses if I got any interviews, can't afford moving expenses if I got into school, and can't afford anything else I was told would "work out" when I was just told to focus on academics.

I'm not giving up and never will, I just have *no idea* how to rescue things. My only chance at earning any decent money is the long shot gamble of selling another book or two in the next three or so years. I have $700 in savings but I can't even pay my rent right now, so things seem grim but again, I'm writing because you're smarter at this than I am, and more experienced, so you can probably give me the good ideas and kick in the pants I need. My estimate for how much I'll need for applying to med schools (even with FAP assistance) and getting an extra year of classes is about $25k, $15k of which is a year of school. (The physics course I'm taking costs $3k on its own while a full semester costs $5500 so if I have to cough up magical money I might as well do things right.)

Even if it takes another five years, or ten, I'm GOING to do this because I very passionately want to be a doctor for the right reasons (which for me are opportunities to help others through meeting patients, through research, through public health and charity initiatives).

Anyway, ramble over. Long story short: I'm dirt poor. Except for research I'll be doing over the next year anyway, and a shortage of LORs from science professors (I have one really passionate one and two possible tepid ones), everything else is solid. Advice?

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[pms_testosterone]

"no way I'd even be able to afford to move to whatever city I'd need to."
Med students can get bank loans quite easily, and larger loans than the typical undergrad; I'm not sure how your past history of loans will affect that, but I wouldn't assume you're out of luck without doing more research.

I take it you're not working due to a scarcity of jobs in your area that can accommodate your disability? Is there any way for you to go to a vocational college for something healthcare-related (one of the shorter programs like nursing aide or medical office assistant) so you can start making money?

"The physics course I'm taking costs $3k"
What?! I suppose there's no cheaper university in your area. Do the med schools you're applying to accept online coursework? Maybe you could find an online university that's cheaper.

I have no bright ideas about how to pay for those steep application fees, unfortunately. Your situation sucks. Sorry to hear about it.

 

[ngrd2]

"no way I'd even be able to afford to move to whatever city I'd need to."
Med students can get bank loans quite easily, and larger loans than the typical undergrad; I'm not sure how your past history of loans will affect that, but I wouldn't assume you're out of luck without doing more research.

I take it you're not working due to a scarcity of jobs in your area that can accommodate your disability? Is there any way for you to go to a vocational college for something healthcare-related (one of the shorter programs like nursing aide or medical office assistant) so you can start making money?

"The physics course I'm taking costs $3k"
What?! I suppose there's no cheaper university in your area. Do the med schools you're applying to accept online coursework? Maybe you could find an online university that's cheaper.

I have no bright ideas about how to pay for those steep application fees, unfortunately. Your situation sucks. Sorry to hear about it.

Thanks, but to clarify: if I get into some school 500 miles away, and one that's in a city where you need a car, I can approach a bank and say "hey I'm a med student"? Because while I'll have no problem getting loans to pay for school contingent on the fact that doctors are a pretty reliable population when it comes to being able to pay back loans vs. that goof art school degree I have, small/personal loans are a different story. If you're on SSDI and your credit is not great (it's currently being repaired and will be fine for school but bank loans and credit cards are not an option), you're out of luck; I can't even get so-called "alternative loans," though I wouldn't want to go that route anyway.

The not working does have to do with being disabled, but also with a work history (trying to work when I was disabled and much worse than I am now) that's sketchy at best, meaning my options are gas stations and fast food restaurants, which I'd take in a minute, but it's make enough money to bump me off health insurance so my medication costs would be 3x the cost of my rent, no kidding.

The issue with the $3k class is yes, large state school; a single four-credit class costs almost as much at the 12-credit full-time tier. There's the option of an online class offered by a community college for $900, but that knocked 9 of the 16 schools I was going to apply to off my list because of arcane rules about how online classes are okay if there's a real-world counterpoint at the community college but an online community college class isn't acceptable and in some cases any community college courses aren't acceptable. The other incentive is that at the state school, the neuroscientist with whom I was going to do research left abruptly but understandably because his wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer; if he's back next academic year we'd work together and I'd have a shiny LOR considering he's also dean of the school (and yes: not me cleaning up his lab but me coming up with the research design and him teaching me how to implement it on the school's dime, which I realize is a very very rare thing). No one else in neuroscience even needs any kind of assistant; I've asked.

I'll check out the vocational stuff, though, thanks; my fear is needing to hide that from schools because I already have to do a dance around why I have a thorough, intimate knowledge of autism and am researching it without telling anyone I'm autistic.

The problem isn't the application fees––those are all covered. It's travel expenses, moving expenses, getting a car (I keep getting told I need/don't need one) and taking the physics classes plus, I had hoped, some psych and bio classes.

And I don't want to sound whiny because this is really my fault––if I had more income and better credit I'd be able to get loans and I'm the one who screwed that up. Everything is worth a try, though, so thanks.

 

[pms_testosterone]

"if I get into some school 500 miles away, and one that's in a city where you need a car, I can approach a bank and say "hey I'm a med student"?"

I don't know.

"I'll check out the vocational stuff, though, thanks; my fear is needing to hide that from schools"

My experience is that career colleges have pretty basic admissions processes; you've got the pre-reqs (which are usually high school courses), you get in. You probably wouldn't need to talk about autism or really go into detail about yourself on your application essays/interviews (if these are even required!)

 

[ZX10R]

If all you need are physics 1 & 2 just do them at a CC for like $500-800. About you car question, no you will not be able to get a loan from a bank/credit union without a co-signer. A resident; yes, but a medical student no. What you can do is lease, a Hyundai/jetta/spark can lease for $100-150 a month. The only downside is you might have to take out full CoL in order to pay for this and add on another $100 for insurance. I recommend lease instead of buying a $3,000 beater because it will give you peace of mind and most car manufactures do maintenance for free with a lease.

As for research vs LoRs you need to focus on LoRs first, being a non-trad they are more lenient on this aspect as well as CC credits. You're 40 man, they care more about what kind of diversity you'll add to the school. Also, why are you only applying to 15 schools? Don't assume 16 schools = 16 II (most people are happy with 5 IIs); I strongly recommend applying to DO as they are much more non-trad friendly. @Goro can answer you questions about autism. I really don't know how that would effect your app. I'm going to put this as lightly as possible, but being a doctor is 90% interpreting what your patient is telling you which is usually overt, so IMO you should be honest about it. The people interviewing you during II's arn't dumb either, mostly MDs/DOs/PhDs and maybe a MS4.

Other notes withstanding you really need to get your financial **** straight. Downgrade or move in with a roommate/family if you need to. You have to starting saving for your interview cycle. A 40 year old with financial troubles might raise some red flags to adcoms, not trying to deter you here, but we are judged on everything.

 

[ngrd2]

"if I get into some school 500 miles away, and one that's in a city where you need a car, I can approach a bank and say "hey I'm a med student"?"

I don't know.

"I'll check out the vocational stuff, though, thanks; my fear is needing to hide that from schools"

My experience is that career colleges have pretty basic admissions processes; you've got the pre-reqs (which are usually high school courses), you get in. You probably wouldn't need to talk about autism or really go into detail about yourself on your application essays/interviews (if these are even required!)

Whoops, sorry, I misunderstood you. Humiliating (trust me) vocation stuff would just be a way to make money, not an end in and of itself. One of among my many, many character flaws is that I'm inordinately ambitious, not just in one area or pursuit but in everything I'm interested in. I meant that I pass as normal so I was referring to hiding being disabled from med schools until I matriculate, if I ever get that far. Allegedly us folks add to diversity, etc., and are welcome, but in reality we always have to sneak in through a side door.

 

[ngrd2]

If all you need are physics 1 & 2 just do them at a CC for like $500-800. About you car question, no you will not be able to get a loan from a bank/credit union without a co-signer. A resident; yes, but a medical student no. What you can do is lease, a Hyundai/jetta/spark can lease for $100-150 a month. The only downside is you might have to take out full CoL in order to pay for this and add on another $100 for insurance. I recommend lease instead of buying a $3,000 beater because it will give you peace of mind and most car manufactures do maintenance for free with a lease.

Need Physics II; also need Calculus (one or two semesters) depending on the school but that's optional; also would like Immunology and a bunch of psych classes to make my specific areas of interest a little less left-field. But I would be fine with a CC Phys class if med schools were okay with it, and they are not.

As for research vs LoRs you need to focus on LoRs first, being a non-trad they are more lenient on this aspect as well as CC credits. You're 40 man, they care more about what kind of diversity you'll add to the school. Also, why are you only applying to 15 schools? Don't assume 16 schools = 16 II (most people are happy with 5 IIs); I strongly recommend applying to DO as they are much more non-trad friendly. @Goro can answer you questions about autism. I really don't know how that would effect your app. I'm going to put this as lightly as possible, but being a doctor is 90% interpreting what your patient is telling you which is usually overt, so IMO you should be honest about it. The people interviewing you during II's arn't dumb either, mostly MDs/DOs/PhDs and maybe a MS4.

I have three LORs that practically glow in the dark but only one is from a science professor. When I combined LOR/research I mean the neuroscientist I'd work with is also a professor. My state school is so huge I've never had the same science prof twice; any LOR I get from one of them would probably misspell my name. Working with or for a professor on research is a better way to get to know someone across time.

Other notes withstanding you really need to get your financial **** straight. Downgrade or move in with a roommate/family if you need to. You have to starting saving for your interview cycle. A 40 year old with financial troubles might raise some red flags to adcoms, not trying to deter you here, but we are judged on everything.

Thanks, this is helpful. If I downgraded any more I'd be living in a roominghouse with heroin addicts, but the actual truth and my bulletproof explanation for poverty is this: I have a dual MFA in art and writing from a prestigious art school, and while I've published a few books, neither career skyrocketed, so I'm about as poor as everyone else suckered into getting an MFA. I also have an MA; what I don't have are a lot of marketable job skills because yes, obviously if I got an MFA I lack(ed) common sense. Thanks, though.

 

[wholeheartedly]

lets get a bit more specific

what requirents do you have left?
what are your current stats?

have you maxed out on all available federal loans or just certain types?

 

[ngrd2]

lets get a bit more specific

what requirents do you have left?
what are your current stats?

have you maxed out on all available federal loans or just certain types?

Loans: maxed out all available federal loans plus local gemach/Jewish interest-free loan
Bare minimum requirements: second-semester physics (took the lab, just need lecture), biochemistry lab (just found out today!)
For some schools: one or two semesters calculus
Good but not necessary: some upper-level bio and psych classes
Stats: 3.82(?) GPA, good ECs, great but too few LORs, will be doing research prob. July 2017-July 2018 but haven't done any yet though not for lack of trying
More stats: age 40, white male, queer, Jewish, URM, first-generation college, MA in media studies, dual MFA in art and writing, some books published, art "career" on hold, won school's sole pre-med scholarship last year; first non-trad to ever do so; other prizes and junk
But could also use: "traditional" volunteering vs. charity drive and creative auction/etc. work
The deal with volunteering: 700+ pre-meds at my school in a medium-sized city; clinics have waiting lists to volunteer
Actual research: assembling team of me, immunologist, neuroscientist (focus: cerebellum), informatics person, statistician for "new" look at autism, lit review is very promising so far
Savings: $700
Finances: debt consolidation from actual needs on credit cards so credit is repaired/soon repaired but not good enough for personal loans
Covered: application expenses, MCAT
Need: car and car expenses (insurance etc.), travel expenses, required class(es), moving expenses if I get into school
Also need: smaller single-instance things like decent cheap suit for interviews if I get some, decent cheap black suit for plausible classical music gig side money (first tenor through baritone, clarinet, bunch of low brass and other instruments, composer/arranger; if I have a "savant" thing, this would be it), tailoring (lost 100 lbs. in the last 14 months and still losing, and yes that's almost 40% of my body weight, hence a lot of tailoring)
Class problem: many schools won't accept online class, only if non-community college, or community college if non-online
Looming problem: MCAT in three weeks, have not studied
However: with about two months (vs. three weeks) to study for MCAT will very likely absolutely nail it
Why I haven't studied: obscure eating disorder leading to dehydration and exhaustion (I pass out a lot, get very disoriented, still forget to eat from unintentionally restricted food list) so I've been holding down straight As and staying up 60-80 hours at a time to make classes and extract everything I can from school and uphold responsibilities etc. and things are total chaos
No it's not that kind of thing: it's not anorexia or bulimia, it's ARFID; it'll vanish when I get a handle on stress this summer
Also: I'm autistic and don't respond well to chaos of my own making (accustomed to public chaos by now), though I am autistic and haven't figured out how to hide that from schools; also, anxiety, but 98% of that is worry about money and failure, not about people or events etc. etc.
However: imagine someone with severe Tourette's able to stifle it in public but it takes a toll; that's me, more or less, but with vestiges of what people incorrectly label "symptoms" of autism, plus instead of being inert I get overly chatty and want to know everything about everything
Unrealistic hopes: MD/PhD but although I'm not too old for school, an MD/PhD is pushing it
What fell through: various depts. at school plus school itself had financial help, then did not, synagogue of which I'm a member promised assistance and didn't follow through, sister promised assistance but has four kids and lost her job, and her husband is wealthy but sort of uptight
Also: school dean/neuroscientist who could pull strings disappeared because of urgent family health problems, and extremely helpful pre-med advisor who could make things happen disappeared because of urgent family health problems
Why I don't have a job: on SSDI, do two jobs under the table, if I worked any actual job full-time, no matter how menial, I'd lose my benefits and health insurance and can get only two-thirds of needed meds from free clinics (no more asthma meds, for example)
Am I trying every damn thing I can think of: yup
Do I feel pretty ashamed of myself for being poor: yup
Is this really just cold feet: nope
Am I committed to being a doctor out of actual altruism that will sustain me through high stress of med school: yup

 

[backside_attack]

There are online jobs that you are qualified for. There are a bunch of on-demand tutoring and essay proofreading gigs that are not sketchy at all, including companies like Pearson Smartthinking, ThinkingStorm, etc. They pay based on degree status (so BA gets paid less than MFA/MA, for example) and you clearly have internet access and can bang out some tutoring and proofreading any time you want.

 

[ngrd2]

There are online jobs that you are qualified for. There are a bunch of on-demand tutoring and essay proofreading gigs that are not sketchy at all, including companies like Pearson Smartthinking, ThinkingStorm, etc. They pay based on degree status (so BA gets paid less than MFA/MA, for example) and you clearly have internet access and can bang out some tutoring and proofreading any time you want.

Thanks! Exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for but didn't know about.

 

[Goro]

You have so many things going on in your life that I can't recommend applying until you get things stabilized. What's the point if you can't afford attending an II, or moving, etc?

Loans: maxed out all available federal loans plus local gemach/Jewish interest-free loan
Bare minimum requirements: second-semester physics (took the lab, just need lecture), biochemistry lab (just found out today!)
For some schools: one or two semesters calculus
Good but not necessary: some upper-level bio and psych classes
Stats: 3.82(?) GPA, good ECs, great but too few LORs, will be doing research prob. July 2017-July 2018 but haven't done any yet though not for lack of trying
More stats: age 40, white male, queer, Jewish, URM, first-generation college, MA in media studies, dual MFA in art and writing, some books published, art "career" on hold, won school's sole pre-med scholarship last year; first non-trad to ever do so; other prizes and junk
But could also use: "traditional" volunteering vs. charity drive and creative auction/etc. work
The deal with volunteering: 700+ pre-meds at my school in a medium-sized city; clinics have waiting lists to volunteer
Actual research: assembling team of me, immunologist, neuroscientist (focus: cerebellum), informatics person, statistician for "new" look at autism, lit review is very promising so far
Savings: $700
Finances: debt consolidation from actual needs on credit cards so credit is repaired/soon repaired but not good enough for personal loans
Covered: application expenses, MCAT
Need: car and car expenses (insurance etc.), travel expenses, required class(es), moving expenses if I get into school
Also need: smaller single-instance things like decent cheap suit for interviews if I get some, decent cheap black suit for plausible classical music gig side money (first tenor through baritone, clarinet, bunch of low brass and other instruments, composer/arranger; if I have a "savant" thing, this would be it), tailoring (lost 100 lbs. in the last 14 months and still losing, and yes that's almost 40% of my body weight, hence a lot of tailoring)
Class problem: many schools won't accept online class, only if non-community college, or community college if non-online
Looming problem: MCAT in three weeks, have not studied
However: with about two months (vs. three weeks) to study for MCAT will very likely absolutely nail it
Why I haven't studied: obscure eating disorder leading to dehydration and exhaustion (I pass out a lot, get very disoriented, still forget to eat from unintentionally restricted food list) so I've been holding down straight As and staying up 60-80 hours at a time to make classes and extract everything I can from school and uphold responsibilities etc. and things are total chaos
No it's not that kind of thing: it's not anorexia or bulimia, it's ARFID; it'll vanish when I get a handle on stress this summer
Also: I'm autistic and don't respond well to chaos of my own making (accustomed to public chaos by now), though I am autistic and haven't figured out how to hide that from schools; also, anxiety, but 98% of that is worry about money and failure, not about people or events etc. etc.
However: imagine someone with severe Tourette's able to stifle it in public but it takes a toll; that's me, more or less, but with vestiges of what people incorrectly label "symptoms" of autism, plus instead of being inert I get overly chatty and want to know everything about everything
Unrealistic hopes: MD/PhD but although I'm not too old for school, an MD/PhD is pushing it
What fell through: various depts. at school plus school itself had financial help, then did not, synagogue of which I'm a member promised assistance and didn't follow through, sister promised assistance but has four kids and lost her job, and her husband is wealthy but sort of uptight
Also: school dean/neuroscientist who could pull strings disappeared because of urgent family health problems, and extremely helpful pre-med advisor who could make things happen disappeared because of urgent family health problems
Why I don't have a job: on SSDI, do two jobs under the table, if I worked any actual job full-time, no matter how menial, I'd lose my benefits and health insurance and can get only two-thirds of needed meds from free clinics (no more asthma meds, for example)
Am I trying every damn thing I can think of: yup
Do I feel pretty ashamed of myself for being poor: yup
Is this really just cold feet: nope
Am I committed to being a doctor out of actual altruism that will sustain me through high stress of med school: yup

 

[ngrd2]

You have so many things going on in your life that I can't recommend applying until you get things stabilized. What's the point if you can't afford attending an II, or moving, etc?

I agree, which is why I'm not applying this year, though I will take the MCAT later this summer because I'm close to ready for it; however, if I wait until things are stable....the last time things were stable was before I started kindergarten, and the next time things will be stable will be if I end up in some nursing home forty years from now. I'm not trying to be catty, but when you're broken-class and disabled and on your own, "stable" isn't an option. Trust me, I wish it were. And my life isn't nearly as chaotic as it was between the ages of 25 and 35.

So I'm a drama queen because things seem impossible but if I want to do something, I do it. If I have any good qualities other than creativity, the other one is resilience/stubbornness; if I want something, I find a way to get it, even if it takes a year or a decade or two decades. Patience isn't really an option at my age, though, and I don't just mean med school.

But yes: too much is going on. My pre-med advisor has resurfaced so I'm meeting with her tomorrow and my attention now, besides the MCAT, are on somehow pulling together one more undergrad year in which I can cover all my "surprise prereq" bases and retain my sanity via the school choirs and band. By next summer I'll have taken the MCAT, solved some financial problems, sold a book or two and put out a few albums, forced another art show onto my CV and get more experience with orthodox/medical volunteering and research.

 

[mw18]

I worry about the stress of medical school for you. It's a lot to take on and it can be overwhelming even for those with experience with crazy stress. That being said, if you wanna start a gofundme I'll get you a $20.

 

[ngrd2]

I worry about the stress of medical school for you. It's a lot to take on and it can be overwhelming even for those with experience with crazy stress. That being said, if you wanna start a gofundme I'll get you a $20.

Thanks. I am concerned about stress as well, but that's going to be a factor in the style of education in schools I apply to (I do much better in small groups than large lectures, and with doing some things online) but when I'm talking crazy stress I'm talking stuff like torture and homelessness and the deaths of loved ones. Unlike my mother, whose life was genuinely rough, I found coping mechanisms through prayer/meditation and through fine arts work that are healthy and not inordinately expensive if you're crafty. Taking an extra year will help alleviate the stress as well. And I have a gofundme, thanks, but I need to rejigger it a bit because it keeps getting eaten away at by living expenses now, and feel bad taking any money from people racking up a lot of debt during a stressful time, but thanks.

 

[futuremdforme]

I am concerned that if you are better at things online than in person, and if you have trouble in group situations, that you will have trouble with the career of a physician.

 

[DJKitty]

Hi ngrd2,

Disclaimer: I am not trying to discourage you from finding a meaningful career and I wish the best for you.

You are dealing with a lot on your plate right now and until you have things well under control in all areas of your life, applying to medical school is not advisable.
Beyond the debt, your current state of health is concerning. You described losing 40% of your body weight in 14 months and that you are still losing weight. This is a big deal and thinking that once you are less stressed it will just go away isn't necessarily logical. 1. Medical school/residency/medicine are stressful. Any condition worsened by stress is going to be more challenging to control given the demanding environment. (It is possible to control these conditions, but you are going to need a strong support network, a realistic view of your strengths and vulnerabilities and committed treaters). 2. Severe eating disorders tend not to just go way without treatment. You also mentioned anxiety and autism diagnoses. I hope that you are seeing a psychiatrist and therapist for your anxiety and eating disorder. If you are on SSDI due to a mental health condition, going into one of the most demanding professions with long hours, sleep deprivation, and often complex communications with patients and staff may not make the most sense. Your health comes before school or a job. Going from being disabled to being a medical student/resident and studying/working 60-80 hours a week is a huge leap. Occupational rehabilitation may make sense to make the transition easier.

Your financial situation is also concerning. $700 dollars in savings isn't going to go far and it sounds like you are in a great deal of debt from loans. Taking out an additional 200,000 in loans for medical school doesn't make financial sense. Ideally, you would have enough in savings for an emergency fund to last you for expenses for several months before you apply for medical school. You are in your 40s. This is realistically 25-30 years before retirement. By the time you finish medical school and residency you will be around 50 when you are a beginning attending. There is persistence and grit and then there is repeatedly hitting your head against the wall and expecting a different result. There is a time when "quitting" is the best option. (I'm not saying you are at this point, just that plowing forward without thinking about the effects on your health and welfare will not work out well in the end).

Good luck with your future endeavors!

 

[Venice Beach]

Have you tried working with Vocational Rehab? There are disabled veterans getting their pre-med courses, MCAT courses, and entire medical education covered. Check it out and see if you can get help from them.

Make sure to let them no that you can't get a job with an MFA.

 

[xffan624]

Have you tried working with Vocational Rehab? There are disabled veterans getting their pre-med courses, MCAT courses, and entire medical education covered. Check it out and see if you can get help from them.

Make sure to let them no that you can't get a job with an MFA.

Unless OP is a veteran (not mentioned in the original post unless I missed something), they do not qualify for this program.

 

[Venice Beach]

delete

 

[Venice Beach]

He may be able to get help with the premed stuff. Just select a major that has all the premed courses.

If med school isn't an option, they do pay for grad school. I know people who got graduate degrees from the full support of vocational Rehab. They weren't veterans either.

 

[Goro]

I'm not trying to be catty, but when you're broken-class and disabled and on your own, "stable" isn't an option. .

If stable is not an option, then med school is not an option.