Undergrad Competitiveness?

[learnmdabc]

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haha!

I remember those days. I was a freshman and sophomore at UC Berkeley. I felt that I had been dealt a poor hand. Why are my classes so hard and so competitive? Classes can't be this hard elsewhere....

So I decided that Berkeley was especially hard, that it harmed my chances to getting into medical school, that I should have gone to an "easier school."

Upon graduation, I realized this: "what a cheap way to delude myself."

The fact is this. Plenty of people from self-proclaimed competitive schools get 3.7+ GPAs and pursue amazing extracurriculars at the same time. And they are the people who, with or without inflation or deflation, will get into medical school.

As is the case for any applicant, at any school.

So this is my advice: Treat it like you don't get any bonus points for your school. For plenty of people at Cal don't need bonus points to get into medical school.

Why should you?

In retrospect, my own advice would have changed my mentality as I approached my studies during Cal. Playing victim to one's circumstance is sad and unrealistic.

 

[DrYoda]

haha!

I remember those days. I was a freshman and sophomore at UC Berkeley. I felt that I had been dealt a poor hand. Why are my classes so hard and so competitive? Classes can't be this hard elsewhere....

So I decided that Berkeley was especially hard, that it harmed my chances to getting into medical school, that I should have gone to an "easier school."

Upon graduation, I realized this: "what a cheap way to delude myself."

The fact is this. Plenty of people from self-proclaimed competitive schools get 3.7+ GPAs and pursue amazing extracurriculars at the same time. And they are the people who, with or without inflation or deflation, will get into medical school.

As is the case for any applicant, at any school.

So this is my advice: Treat it like you don't get any bonus points for your school. For plenty of people at Cal don't need bonus points to get into medical school.

Why should you?

In retrospect, my own advice would have changed my mentality as I approached my studies during Cal. Playing victim to one's circumstance is sad and unrealistic.

You, my friend, have found the truth.👍

 

[mmmcdowe]

You know you to completely honest I know for a FACT that state schools are EASY. I attended UPenn as an undergrad and it is extremely competitive and the grades are very much deflated. I had to study for weeks in advance of a midterm only to earn a C+; however, I did a postbacc program at UMaryland and have a 3.8. This really concerns me because my gpa from UPenn is 3.22 and my gpa from UMD 3.8. To top it off I have been scoring 34-35 on practice MCAT well above average....all that being said students at top schools absolutely deserve "special" consideration because in reality they likely more prepared for med school than the student from the state school with a sky high GPA and average MCATS...at least thats what i tell myself lol


Three Points:

1. Redlight... I am sooo excited about the MCAT because although challenging from what can see (from my prep course) it is easier than any undergrad science test I have taken at Penn

2. I am not literally saying that I have surveyed all public and private schools and know private is harder. I am talking about TOP SCHOOLS more specifically Penn the home of one of the most sought after med schools...u would be a fool to think their undergrad pre-meds arent challenged more than at ur random state school

3. As for post-baccs schools people absolutely choose schools that they think that can do "improve" at....easier schools. If I am trying to bench press my GPA why would I return to Penn or an equally challenging school?

PS I hear Penn gives their undergrads special consideration because of the vigor of undergrad courses I was told (off the record) that even with my GPA...UPenn preference, a good MCAT score, and my URM status will get me an interview

You know what baby, you really rocked me speechless. So much so that I had to take a couple minutes and a cigarette before I could even begin to formulate a reply to your posts. It was that good. In fact, I think I'm going to go change my sheets. So, I'll just leave you with a few words of advice. Tone down the Penn pride when it comes to comparing her with other schools. You will and are offending people by what they feel are inflammatory remarks. This doesn't mean you can't advocate that Penn is a hard school or that Penn students are well prepared for medical school, but do it without putting down other students or their schools. I'm talking to some of my Penn friends now, and no one seems to agree with you about their science exams at Penn being harder (in terms of getting a top 5% score, not necessarily in terms of the material. MCAT material is relatively basic, but its the application of material and curve that get you). Be as it may, I hope that the MCAT is very easy for you and that you rock it out 😉

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

I agree, people play the victim card all the time and its really just a self fulfilling prophecy. This thread isn't even meaningful, its just an ego booster for people with low grades. You see it all the time where people get a low score and come on this forum to make a post for validation. At the end of the day, they don't change their habits so nothing really changes.

 

[TopSecret]

A 3.5 GPA at Arizona State is nowhere near the same level of achievement as a 3.5 GPA at an Ivy League school. People need to get their heads out of their rears. The difference in quality usually shows up on the MCATs.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

A 3.5 GPA at Arizona State is nowhere near the same level of achievement as a 3.5 GPA at an Ivy League school. People need to get their heads out of their rears. The difference in quality usually shows up on the MCATs.

Yep. I bet it is statistically significant too. The assumption is that you compare two people with the same majors from the two different schools.

 

[clifftacopter]

I went to UC Berkeley my first two years of college, Yale my last two (well, I'm in my last year). My experience has been... they're about the same in difficulty.

To be more specific, the curve at Berkeley was a bit harsher, but the competition wasn't nearly as tough. At Yale the curve tends to be more forgiving, but the students tend to be tougher competition. Overall it came out to be about even when grades were released (my grades have been slightly lower at Yale, but at a statistically insignificant level).

Moral of the story: Not to shortchange a great institution, but UC Berkeley kids need to stop whining about grade deflation. I've been there, and it's not as uniquely hard as you guys seem to think it is.

 

[searun]

Yeah, the Berkeley kids do seem to whine alot? I don't hear much whining from UCLA. Why is that? Do UCLA kids just have more fun?? I watch alot of PAC 10 football and notice that the UCLA cheerleaders are much better looking that Cal's.

 

[TopSecret]

Yeah, the Berkeley kids do seem to whine alot? I don't hear much whining from UCLA. Why is that? Do UCLA kids just have more fun?? I watch alot of PAC 10 football and notice that the UCLA cheerleaders are much better looking that Cal's.

UCLA is right next to Santa Monica....

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

Yeah, the Berkeley kids do seem to whine alot? I don't hear much whining from UCLA. Why is that? Do UCLA kids just have more fun?? I watch alot of PAC 10 football and notice that the UCLA cheerleaders are much better looking that Cal's.

You haven't met my gf, she went to Berkeley. lolz

 

[BoxerCar12]

My school's average GPA is under 3. Do we get bonus points?

 

[Beren]

I went to UC Berkeley my first two years of college, Yale my last two (well, I'm in my last year). My experience has been... they're about the same in difficulty.

To be more specific, the curve at Berkeley was a bit harsher, but the competition wasn't nearly as tough. At Yale the curve tends to be more forgiving, but the students tend to be tougher competition. Overall it came out to be about even when grades were released (my grades have been slightly lower at Yale, but at a statistically insignificant level).

Moral of the story: Not to shortchange a great institution, but UC Berkeley kids needs to stop whining about grade deflation. I've been there, and it's not as uniquely hard as you guys seem to think it is.

I agree. Berkeley doesn't lack intelligent and motivated ppl, but the classes are so large that it's really easy to wind up on the right side of the curve. It's almost like grade inflation.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

The problem with Berkeley is there are too many damn smart Asian kids and too many bike's stolen. Everyone is raving about this Cheeseboard pizza place there, any good?

 

[clifftacopter]

I agree. Berkeley doesn't lack intelligent and motivated ppl, but the classes are so large that it's really easy to wind up on the right side of the curve. It's almost like grade inflation.

That's exactly how I felt there.

 

[mmmcdowe]

A 3.5 GPA at Arizona State is nowhere near the same level of achievement as a 3.5 GPA at an Ivy League school. People need to get their heads out of their rears. The difference in quality usually shows up on the MCATs.

Why does everyone always have to pick on Arizona State?

 

[glypha1104]

Wow, this thread has reminded me why I tend to avoid the pre-med forum.

 

[Brent8927]

The problem with Berkeley is there are too many damn smart Asian kids and too many bike's stolen. Everyone is raving about this Cheeseboard pizza place there, any good?

It totally is. But my girlfriend and I far preferred Dara's, a Thai restaurant on Shattuck. We used to live a block away--it was heaven.

Totally true about the bikes--mine was stolen from my backyard (while locked up...) At least it was a rusty piece of junk and I only lost $100. I can't imagine having an expensive bike in Berkeley.

I agree with others that everyone loves to talk up their school. I went to Santa Clara University, which is a small kind of unknown Jesuit school in the South Bay. People there loved to say it was as hard as Berkeley and Stanford, but without the recognition.

Is it true? Maybe--I don't know. But really, who cares! I was happy with my choice to go there, and I think that's really all that matters.

Anyhow, I disagree about Stanford girls--Berkeley girls are hotter. (My gf is also from Berkeley 🙂)

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

It totally is. But my girlfriend and I far preferred Dara's, a Thai restaurant on Shattuck. We used to live a block away--it was heaven.

Cool, I'm going to the Transcatheter Cardiovascular Theurapeutics convention there later this month, I'll have to check it out.

I agree with others that everyone loves to talk up their school. I went to Santa Clara University, which is a small kind of unknown Jesuit school in the South Bay. People there loved to say it was as hard as Berkeley and Stanford, but without the recognition.

LOL religious school. Biology 101 is how to make a human out of a rib, the professor is Kent Hovind, and humans co-existed with dinosaurs.

 

[bamtuba]

So has anyone else noticed that the OP and the princess are in another castle? No response after the beating taken from all fronts...

Oh, and really, no one gives a crap about where any of us went to school. I went to a fantastic school. I also took classes at a not-so-fantastic school. No one has cared and few have known even on the interview trail.

Whatever helps you sleep at night though. 😉

 

[bamtuba]

Cool, I'm going to the Transcatheter Cardiovascular Theurapeutics convention there later this month, I'll have to check it out.



LOL religious school. Biology 101 is how to make a human out of a rib, the professor is Kent Hovind, and humans co-existed with dinosaurs.

Sarcasm fail. Isn't stem cell research about how to do the same type of thing?

 

[Brent8927]

Cool, I'm going to the Transcatheter Cardiovascular Theurapeutics convention there later this month, I'll have to check it out.



LOL religious school. Biology 101 is how to make a human out of a rib, the professor is Kent Hovind, and humans co-existed with dinosaurs.

Oh gosh... I would have died if my school was like that. I love the Jesuits. Which is why I'm at a Jesuit medical school now 🙂.

But don't forget--not only did humans co-exist with dinosaurs, but T-Rex was a vegetarian, at least until the fall of man. 😀

 

[mmmcdowe]

Sarcasm fail. Isn't stem cell research about how to do the same type of thing?

Well yes, but with less rib.

 

[bamtuba]

Well yes, but with less rib.

And that's the shame. Ribs are so good...

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

Oh gosh... I would have died if my school was like that. I love the Jesuits. Which is why I'm at a Jesuit medical school now 🙂.

But don't forget--not only did humans co-exist with dinosaurs, but T-Rex was a vegetarian, at least until the fall of man. 😀

Ops, I misread. I thought you meant someone else went there. Didn't mean to be a dlck this time.

 

[Brent8927]

Ops, I misread. I thought you meant someone else went there. Didn't mean to be a dlck this time.

Lol... I figured you were joking!

Anyway, I feel the same about most religious education too. But, the Jesuits do things well by balancing the good in religion (social justice, concern for the poor) and still using their brains.

To each their own!

 

[NotAsking4Much]

Anyhow, I disagree about Stanford girls--Berkeley girls are hotter. (My gf is also from Berkeley 🙂)

I totally disagree! Besides that Cal is 5x bigger so the chance to see someone attractive is 5x more, I think Stanford on average is better. At least more tan haha?

Now if it was against UCLA or UCSB, then I totally admit defeat.

 

[TopSecret]

I totally disagree! Besides that Cal is 5x bigger so the chance to see someone attractive is 5x more, I think Stanford on average is better. At least more tan haha?

Now if it was against UCLA or UCSB, then I totally admit defeat.

All the UC schools in SoCal seem to attract a lot of the beachgoing crowd. UCLA, UCSB, UCI, and UCSD tend to have a lot of 8's, 9's, and 10's.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

Every thread ends up talking about girls. Come on now. I didn't go to college for the girls... Come on now.

 

[Brent8927]

Every thread ends up talking about girls. Come on now. I didn't go to college for the girls... Come on now.

Lol... True. But at least it's something pretty much every guy can agree on--that we like girls. Seems to diffuse every heated thread.

On the other hand, the Trojan war started over a woman, so I guess it goes both ways...

 

[UPennPrincess]

I am not trying to offend anyone. I am certainly NOT saying that getting great grades from a average or even great public school is not impressive if you have the MCAT scores to prove that your grades are not the result of an "easier" school so of course if you have a 43 MCAT and a 3.9 you are obviously a gifted person however if another applicant also has a 43 MCAT and a 3.6 from a more competitive school who deserves it more??? Its hard to say but I don't think that 3.9 always win.

Compare these two applicants (all other factors controlled)...who should gets the interview? IDK

Standford Grad 3.5 GPA and 38 MCAT or
UMD Grad 3.9 and 32 MCAT

I have so much school pride because Penn is a wonderful place to learn and I really loved it. I honestly dont think its improper, arrogant, or offensive to suggest that graduating from Penn and URM status will help me get an interview or that it will help me in life for that matter because it will

 

[TopSecret]

I am not trying to offend anyone. I am certainly NOT saying that getting great grades from a average or even great public school is not impressive if you have the MCAT scores to prove that your grades are not the result of an "easier" school so of course if you have a 43 MCAT and a 3.9 you are obviously a gifted person however if another applicant also has a 43 MCAT and a 3.6 from a more competitive school who deserves it more??? Its hard to say but I don't think that 3.9 always win.

Compare these two applicants (all other factors controlled)...who should gets the interview? IDK

Standford Grad 3.5 GPA and 38 MCAT or
UMD Grad 3.9 and 32 MCAT

I have so much school pride because Penn is a wonderful place to learn and I really loved it. I honestly dont think its improper, arrogant, or offensive to suggest that graduating from Penn and URM status will help me get an interview or that it will help me in life for that matter because it will

The Stanford grad will probably get the interview.

 

[searun]

I am a west coast guy on the east coast for med school. I have noticed that the Penn girls are not as hot as the west coast girls and alot of them do not shave their legs. That is not really that important, but it is kind of a turn off for me. I just cannot get into girls with hairy legs, but, sure, I am being kind of shallow, but, to be honest, it bothers me. The UCLA girls always shave their legs, which are very tan, of course. Santa Monica. The Beach.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I am not trying to offend anyone. I am certainly NOT saying that getting great grades from a average or even great public school is not impressive if you have the MCAT scores to prove that your grades are not the result of an "easier" school so of course if you have a 43 MCAT and a 3.9 you are obviously a gifted person however if another applicant also has a 43 MCAT and a 3.6 from a more competitive school who deserves it more??? Its hard to say but I don't think that 3.9 always win.

Compare these two applicants (all other factors controlled)...who should gets the interview? IDK

Standford Grad 3.5 GPA and 38 MCAT or
UMD Grad 3.9 and 32 MCAT

I have so much school pride because Penn is a wonderful place to learn and I really loved it. I honestly dont think its improper, arrogant, or offensive to suggest that graduating from Penn and URM status will help me get an interview or that it will help me in life for that matter because it will

Obviously the Stanford grad is going to get the interview, but you have two variables changed. Let's go back to something along the lines previous example you give. 3.5 and 32 from Stanford versus 3.9 and 32 from UMD. UMD is going to win in this situation because that is an enormous difference in GPA. Regardless of what they say, medical schools care about US News rankings. GPA factors into that, so they are only so forgiving of low GPAs. A 3.7 or a 3.8, that's going to be no problem, but when you get down to a 3.5 with a 32 MCAT and they have other options (assuming we are talking about a school where 32 MCAT is averagish)....

Basically this is how it works at the schools that I am familar with. Medical schools have experts on common pre-med schools and they also have access to databases that give the average GPA and MCAT score from a given school. So lets say that Stanford's average applicant has a 3.7 and a 34 versus UMD with a 3.7 and a 32. Let's then say that a Stanford applicant has a 3.7 and a 34 and is being balanced against a UMD kids with a 3.7 and a 34. In a situation like this, the ball is in Stanford kid's court due to his university's averages. So, when you are rocking a good GPA and a strong MCAT, more love to you. However, when you are talking about a Stanford applicant with a 3.4 and a 32 versus a UMD kid with a 3.7 and a 32, things get stickier. Now its a matter of forgiveness instead of awarding a strong application. All things equal, UMD kid is probably going to get the love. So, in short, medical schools definitely understand competitive universities, but there is a limit to their forgiveness when you get roughed up there when they have many other applicants from that school and other schools that have better stats to bring to the table. I'm probably going to get some nay nays for this, but your URM status is probably going to factor more into your GPA forgiveness than your undergraduate university. As far as doing better in a post-bach program, wouldn't you expect to? I mean, you are taking freshman/sophomore classes with all of the study skills and experience of a graduate.

 

[UPennPrincess]

That's what I thought...both applicants will probably get in somewhere however GPAs can be misleading but MCAT scores dont lie. Adcoms know this.

 

[zayka]

How about a Stanford with a 3.9, 32 vs. a UMD with a 3.5, 38?

 

[Trexate]

That's what I thought...both applicants will probably get in somewhere however GPAs can be misleading but MCAT scores dont lie. Adcoms know this.

Good call. Standardized tests never lie...

😆

 

[NotAsking4Much]

i am a west coast guy on the east coast for med school. I have noticed that the penn girls are not as hot as the west coast girls and alot of them do not shave their legs. That is not really that important, but it is kind of a turn off for me. I just cannot get into girls with hairy legs, but, sure, i am being kind of shallow, but, to be honest, it bothers me. The ucla girls always shave their legs, which are very tan, of course. Santa monica. The beach.

lol!!!!

 

[MarieMarie]

I honestly dont think its improper, arrogant, or offensive to suggest that graduating from Penn and URM status will help me get an interview or that it will help me in life for that matter because it will

I think one of these things will help you more than the other.

 

[UPennPrincess]

HEY...I was saying that going to Penn and URM status will help me get an interview at all schools I was talking about Penn specifically.

Two Things

1. What if the students are applying to top tier schools and a 32 is in fact below the average maybe a school where the average is well over 32? Now they both have a below average stat. Or if they are applying to mid tier schools where the average GPA is only a 3.6 or 3.7?

2. And of course I thought it would be easier but the study skills arent a factor because I really dont' much at all anymore thats what I didnt expect and all the classes are with other postbaccs not undergrads

I feel like a stanford grad with a 3.9 and a 32 is highly unlikely especially if they majored in science maybe if they were a communucations major or something...

 

[NotAsking4Much]

HEY...I was saying that going to Penn and URM status will help me get an interview at all schools I was talking about Penn specifically.

Two Things

1. What if the students are applying to top tier schools and a 32 is in fact below the average maybe a school where the average is well over 32? Now they both have a below average stat. Or if they are applying to mid tier schools where the average GPA is only a 3.6 or 3.7?

2. And of course I thought it would be easier but the study skills arent a factor because I really dont' much at all anymore thats what I didnt expect and all the classes are with other postbaccs not undergrads

I feel like a stanford grad with a 3.9 and a 32 is highly unlikely especially if they majored in science maybe if they were a communucations major or something...

The average Stanford applicant has a MCAT of 32.2. The average accepted is 32.7, so it's totally possible.

 

[sportsfreak]

hey UPennPrincess, i saw that earlier on this thread u wrote that penn gives some kind of advantage to its undergraduates...I was wondering if this is just a rumor or u have a good source

I hope this is true, cause I am from penn and would love any advantage I can get to get into penn med

 

[mmmcdowe]

hey UPennPrincess, i saw that earlier on this thread u wrote that penn gives some kind of advantage to its undergraduates...I was wondering if this is just a rumor or u have a good source

I hope this is true, cause I am from penn and would love any advantage I can get to get into penn med

It is very easy to get a home team advantage at the medical school affiliated with your undergrad. Penn is not unique in this.

 

[mmmcdowe]

how about a stanford with a 3.9, 32 vs. A umd with a 3.5, 38?

umd.

 

[mmmcdowe]

HEY...I was saying that going to Penn and URM status will help me get an interview at all schools I was talking about Penn specifically.

Two Things

1. What if the students are applying to top tier schools and a 32 is in fact below the average maybe a school where the average is well over 32? Now they both have a below average stat. Or if they are applying to mid tier schools where the average GPA is only a 3.6 or 3.7?

2. And of course I thought it would be easier but the study skills arent a factor because I really dont' much at all anymore thats what I didnt expect and all the classes are with other postbaccs not undergrads

I feel like a stanford grad with a 3.9 and a 32 is highly unlikely especially if they majored in science maybe if they were a communucations major or something...

Then they are both fighting an uphill battle, but I'd still side with the one with the higher GPA and equal MCAT. As for schools with lower average GPA, many would probably be more forgiving of a lower GPA but I would still rather have the higher GPA and equal MCAT. Chances are, Stanford kid's chances are improved to nearer of those of UMD kid. While I agree that a high GPA low MCAT student at a top school is rarer than the reverse, they do exist.

 

[UPennPrincess]

Not a rumor. I was definately told this by a legit source...based on what was explained to me Penn accepts quite a few of their undergrads even more so than other schools do. Definately worth a go

 

[TopSecret]

How about a Stanford with a 3.9, 32 vs. a UMD with a 3.5, 38?

The UMD applicant would have the higher LizzyM score.
If the Stanford applicant had a 3.9 and 34, then I'd go with Stanford.

 

[TopSecret]

I am a west coast guy on the east coast for med school. I have noticed that the Penn girls are not as hot as the west coast girls and alot of them do not shave their legs. That is not really that important, but it is kind of a turn off for me. I just cannot get into girls with hairy legs, but, sure, I am being kind of shallow, but, to be honest, it bothers me. The UCLA girls always shave their legs, which are very tan, of course. Santa Monica. The Beach.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBo3KoG4wYU[/YOUTUBE]

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBo3KoG4wYU[/YOUTUBE]

BRB looking for poop stains.

 

[UPennPrincess]

I agree with Top Secret. I'd choose Stanford kid if MCAT were slightly higher

Good info about the pre-med school experts I had no idea they did that.

 

[Double A]

IDK if this helps, but I was at Columbia this summer for SMDEP and one of the deans who sits on the admissions committee explicitly told us that the UG institution does not matter if you do WELL. She said that when the numbers are on the lower border then your college may start to play in to the decision.

Maybe she was just trying to keep those of us from state schools from getting discouraged. I like to believe it though.