Undergrad seeking doctoral/post grad advice

[mnpsych28]

Hey everyone, I am a rising senior behavioral neuroscience major who was primarily interested in applying to PsyD programs in the Chicago area, with the Chicago School being my first choice (William James College in Boston as a second). I had considered this originally as I want to be a neuropsychologist, and didn’t want to dedicate so much time and energy doing research - I also know some people doing PhDs with horror stories about abusive lab situations and the idea of being stuck with that for years is difficult, and clinical PhDs are notoriously difficult to get into and many are not completely funded. I also do value work-life balance to a degree and I’m afraid I would be miserable. I also know PsyD programs are expensive and luckily have 0 debt and wasn’t opposed to living with family in the suburbs and commuting, and I do have money set aside for grad school loans. However, I’m now seeing on many online threads that the Chicago School students are not seriously considered for many APA internship sites, and have a poor reputation.

By the time I graduate, I will have 2 years psychology research experience in 3 labs, a summer pilot research study I designed as part of a scholarship program, a clinical internship, crisis counseling volunteer experience, a GPA of about 3.8, and my GRE score is a 313.

My primary issue is I love neuropsychological assessments which a doctoral degree is required for (the neuropsychologist at my internship has a PsyD). I prefer to do a doc program with a neuropsych concentration so that I’ll have experience necessary for board certification and that limits options. I wish I just wanted to do therapy so I could just do an MA. I’m considering maybe working as a psychometrician (I’m unsure what kind of MA would be useful for that). I’m pretty much panicking at this point and afraid I wasted my undergrad doing something I love but may not be possible for me to achieve a career in.

Any guidance, career suggestions, or insight would be really helpful!

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[WisNeuro]

Bluntly, your top two choices there will hinder your career. To say that they are not well regarded would be an understatement. Many internship and postdoc sites will not seriously consider apps from these programs. Reputable PsyDs and balanced/clinically based PhDs are essentially the same in terms of what the programs are like. Also, the vast majority of PhDs and reputable Psyds are funded.

You do not necessarily need a program with a "neuropsych track," most of these are misleading marketing gimmicks. You should be paying more attention to having access to good neuropsych practica, and where those students are getting internships and neuropsych postdocs.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Honestly, you would be decently competitive for a lot of funded PhD programs--shoot your shot, and see what happens. Agree with @WisNeuro that you should stay far, far away from the two programs you mentioned.

 

[summerbabe]

You should be paying more attention to having access to good neuropsych practica, and where those students are getting internships and neuropsych postdocs.

Can't emphasize this enough for prospective students. I went to a funded program in a rural area and it would be close to impossible to pursue neuropsych.

Also, if you want to give yourself the absolute best shot at matching to an internship with a strong neuropsych track record (which would help with matching to a good NP postdoc), being involved in neuropsych research in grad school can help differentiate between people who only have assessment hours.

 

[cara susanna]

For what it's worth, I completed a PhD program and probably had the best social life I've ever had during it.

 

[WisNeuro]

For what it's worth, I completed a PhD program and probably had the best social life I've ever had during it.

I'll second this notion. Though, my fellowship years were pretty good as well. It's where I met my spouse

 

[jdawg2017]

Hey everyone, I am a rising senior behavioral neuroscience major who was primarily interested in applying to PsyD programs in the Chicago area, with the Chicago School being my first choice (William James College in Boston as a second). I had considered this originally as I want to be a neuropsychologist, and didn’t want to dedicate so much time and energy doing research - I also know some people doing PhDs with horror stories about abusive lab situations and the idea of being stuck with that for years is difficult, and clinical PhDs are notoriously difficult to get into and many are not completely funded. I also do value work-life balance to a degree and I’m afraid I would be miserable. I also know PsyD programs are expensive and luckily have 0 debt and wasn’t opposed to living with family in the suburbs and commuting, and I do have money set aside for grad school loans. However, I’m now seeing on many online threads that the Chicago School students are not seriously considered for many APA internship sites, and have a poor reputation.

By the time I graduate, I will have 2 years psychology research experience in 3 labs, a summer pilot research study I designed as part of a scholarship program, a clinical internship, crisis counseling volunteer experience, a GPA of about 3.8, and my GRE score is a 313.

My primary issue is I love neuropsychological assessments which a doctoral degree is required for (the neuropsychologist at my internship has a PsyD). I prefer to do a doc program with a neuropsych concentration so that I’ll have experience necessary for board certification and that limits options. I wish I just wanted to do therapy so I could just do an MA. I’m considering maybe working as a psychometrician (I’m unsure what kind of MA would be useful for that). I’m pretty much panicking at this point and afraid I wasted my undergrad doing something I love but may not be possible for me to achieve a career in.

Any guidance, career suggestions, or insight would be really helpful!

Agree with everything that has been said, but also:

1) Your point about "some PhD programs not being funded" is moot against the vast majority of PsyD programs requiring students to pay significant amounts of money out of pocket for their education. Even if you have money to spend on grad school, it may be a wiser financial investment if can pursue a funded program and use that money for something else (e.g., real estate in a stable market; stocks).

2) Your background sounds strong on paper. Do you have any pubs/posters? Those will help show scholarly productivity. Also, are the research labs related? I think where some students with a lot of experience may encounter problems in grad school apps is if their experience is somewhat random, which some application reviewers will interpret as a lack of focus (i.e., wide breadth, but no real depth).

3) You may or may not need an MA degree to work as a psychometrician (EDITED per below comment); many folks get the training on-the-job after completing their undergrad if their state does not require this. I have known a few people who make careers out of being a psychometrician. The caveat is all you do is administer/score tests and record behavioral observations, and you have no direct role in clinical interviewing/report writing. If the intellectual exercises of interviewing, integrating scores, report writing, diagnosis, and feedback are of interest, you will want to purse a doctoral degree.

4) I do not have anything against PsyD programs, but in my opinion (and in the opinion of many) neuropsychology is a speciality of psychology which has such a strong emphasis on statistics and research that having some research training in grad school, even if your plan is to clinically practice 100% of your career, is helpful. Normative data, reliable change intervals, etc., etc., etc. have direct influence from research studies, so if nothing else being able to critically understand how we use and interpret neuropsychological instruments is very important. You can get that sort of training on practica, however many practica are more focused on test administration, interviewing, report writing, and feedback and not so much on the nitty-gritty of understanding norms, etc. If you are dead-set on PsyD programs, I would look into programs that also have a research component.


tl;dr: I agree to "shoot your shot" and try for PhD programs. I think you have several misconceptions about graduate school based off of a few anecdotes.

 

[szymk1sm]

3) You don't need an MA degree to work as a psychometrician; many folks get the training on-the-job after completing their undergrad. I have known a few people who make careers out of being a psychometrician. The caveat is all you do is administer/score tests and record behavioral observations, and you have no role in clinical interviewing/report writing. If the intellectual exercises of interviewing, integrating scores, report writing, diagnosis, and feedback are of interest, you will want to purse a doctoral degree.

Note that this is state specific. The state I currently live in requires psychometrists to have a master's degree (with certain coursework and practicum experiences). At least two of the other states I've lived in did not have this requirement.

 

[jdawg2017]

Note that this is state specific. The state I currently live in requires psychometrists to have a master's degree (with certain coursework and practicum experiences). At least two of the other states I've lived in did not have this requirement.

As yes, good point I totally forgot about that (it is actually a requirement in my home state but not where I am now)! It is highly variable. I edited my comment above to reflect this!

 

[summerbabe]

If the goal is to be a neuropsychologist, going to the Chicago Institute or William James would be like a HS football player who wants to make the NFL choosing to pay their way to attend Stillman College rather than try to get a scholarship to University of Alabama.

Stillman has sent 5 players to the NFL so it's possible but Alabama has produced 364. Like others have suggested, don't foreclose PhD programs, especially if this is your objective.

 

[Sanman]

My suggestion, order the insider's guide to clinical and counseling psych by Norcross et al. and start looking for balanced programs with good neuropsych exposure and take your shot. You are generally competitive for a psych PHD/PsyD. Go to the best program you can get into that has opportunities for your interests in neuropsych.

 

[futureapppsy2]

For what it's worth, I completed a PhD program and probably had the best social life I've ever had during it.

Thirding this!

 

[R. Matey]

For what it's worth, I completed a PhD program and probably had the best social life I've ever had during it.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Granted I'm not neuropsych but my first thought reading through your initial post is that I find it hard to conceive of a reasonably good neuropsych who is not very fluent in research- especially in that field even more than most it seems like an essential component, even if you do end up doing "just" clinical work.

 

[mnpsych28]

Bluntly, your top two choices there will hinder your career. To say that they are not well regarded would be an understatement. Many internship and postdoc sites will not seriously consider apps from these programs. Reputable PsyDs and balanced/clinically based PhDs are essentially the same in terms of what the programs are like. Also, the vast majority of PhDs and reputable Psyds are funded.

You do not necessarily need a program with a "neuropsych track," most of these are misleading marketing gimmicks. You should be paying more attention to having access to good neuropsych practica, and where those students are getting internships and neuropsych postdocs.

Thank you. I’m wondering what you would recommend if I do not get into PhD programs this first time around- would a master’s in clinical psychology be helpful to apply to in order to strengthen a PhD application? Given COVID resulted in GRE waivers, so many people applied to clinical psychology programs within the past few years there’s about a 1% acceptance rate from what I’ve seen on program sites. I don’t know of many research assistant jobs within my area. I wanted to do a PhD for most of this year but panicked when I saw the acceptance rates.

 

[mnpsych28]

Granted I'm not neuropsych but my first thought reading through your initial post is that I find it hard to conceive of a reasonably good neuropsych who is not very fluent in research- especially in that field even more than most it seems like an essential component, even if you do end up doing "just" clinical work.

From what I’ve heard lots of PsyD programs do have research opportunities… albeit not many :/ I like research but it’s not my end goal and that’s why I was hesitant about PhDs

 

[mnpsych28]

My suggestion, order the insider's guide to clinical and counseling psych by Norcross et al. and start looking for balanced programs with good neuropsych exposure and take your shot. You are generally competitive for a psych PHD/PsyD. Go to the best program you can get into that has opportunities for your interests in neuropsych.

I did purchase that! I’ll go back and look at the programs I was interested in. Again I was scared off by the acceptance rates and the thought of not getting in is scary when you don’t know what your future looks like!

 

[mnpsych28]

2) Your background sounds strong on paper. Do you have any pubs/posters? Those will help show scholarly productivity. Also, are the research labs related? I think where some students with a lot of experience may encounter problems in grad school apps is if their experience is somewhat random, which some application reviewers will interpret as a lack of focus (i.e., wide breadth, but no real depth).

I presented my pilot research study at a symposium and do have that poster. I will also be doing a poster presentation next spring, but I’m worried that because it will be after hearing back from programs I won’t be able to put it on applications this fall. I was a transfer student, so I didn’t have time to get to know faculty as much as I had wanted to. I did a research lab last year and had wanted to work with that professor the summer prior but ALL research was moved online this past year due to covid. She is taking a pro semester so she won’t be able to have students in her lab or supervise a thesis which is why I’ve chosen to do a research practicum instead. COVID really screwed up a lot of my research plans so I’m trying to cram more of them in this year.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you. I’m wondering what you would recommend if I do not get into PhD programs this first time around- would a master’s in clinical psychology be helpful to apply to in order to strengthen a PhD application? Given COVID resulted in GRE waivers, so many people applied to clinical psychology programs within the past few years there’s about a 1% acceptance rate from what I’ve seen on program sites. I don’t know of many research assistant jobs within my area. I wanted to do a PhD for most of this year but panicked when I saw the acceptance rates.

Unless there was an issue with lower undergrad GPA, I wouldn't think a masters would be much help unless you were guaranteed good research experience, with some products (e.g., poster or pub). Better bang for the buck would likely be adding on research experience relevant to neuro, where you could hopefully network and possibly get a product out of it.

 

[summerbabe]

Again I was scared off by the acceptance rates and the thought of not getting in is scary when you don’t know what your future looks like!

Totally normal response because it's genuinely difficult! And while I don't have any stats, I'm pretty sure only a small portion of folks come directly out of undergrad as most PhDs I've met likely had at least 1 postbacc year or more or attended a MA/MS program en route so that's actually the standard.

I'd recommend plugging away with your current activities and then devising 2 plans: a) apply to some funded PhDs next cycle that seem to be a good fit for your research and career interests b) how to spend 1-2 postbac years if you don't get in this round

Neuropsych is an especially tight-knit community where folks go to the same couple of major conferences every years and often know where good training is happening based on who they have worked under/with (e.g., they were at U of ___ under Dr. ____ and the ____ VA under Dr. _____ and those folks are real pros with high standards so I trust their trainees are solid). Somebody plugged into this world will likely have impressions and biases of your training based on where you've gone to school, done practicum, internship, and postdoc.

Setting yourself up to train at places that are looked favorably in the field will be a major help for your future prospects since not everybody who wants to do neuro ends up making it for a whole host of reasons. If I were in your shoes, I'd rather wait a cycle or two and set myself for success as much as possible than choose the most immediately available option, which in this case will almost certainly count against you. Good luck!