Undergraduate Prestige

[bobadoz]

I go to a smaller, less respected Ohio state school for undergrad (just bc of cost reasons), and it's really discouraging to see how many people come from T20 undergrads -- even at places like OSU and Cinci. How do I have a chance at T20 med schools when even my state schools seem keen on students from more prestigious institutions. /:


I guess I'm afraid that, even if I have high stats, schools will just overlook me just bc I went to an undergrad school with no weight behind its name. Realistically, I am looking to stay in-state, but my dream schools like UCSD or NYU are just filled with amazing undergraduate schools. Any thoughts??

Just for context, I have a 4.0 and have been averaging ~517 on my AAMC FLs. I have good (but not outstanding) ECs. Thanks for any feedback 🙂

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[Test Boy]

I go to a smaller, less respected Ohio state school for undergrad (just bc of cost reasons), and it's really discouraging to see how many people come from T20 undergrads -- even at places like OSU and Cinci. How do I have a chance at T20 med schools when even my state schools seem keen on students from more prestigious institutions. /:


I guess I'm afraid that, even if I have high stats, schools will just overlook me just bc I went to an undergrad school with no weight behind its name. Realistically, I am looking to stay in-state, but my dream schools like UCSD or NYU are just filled with amazing undergraduate schools. Any thoughts??

Just for context, I have a 4.0 and have been averaging ~517 on my AAMC FLs. I have good (but not outstanding) ECs. Thanks for any feedback 🙂

Probably the more prestigious med schools will prefer someone from a more prestigious undergrad given the same stats, etc. You just need to outperform those applicants from more prestigious undergrads. That’s the way it is.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

The MCAT is the great equalizer. Do well on that and you can go to T20 if you maintain that GPA and your EC's are good.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I went to a T15 non-Ivy undergrad. I thought it would have had more weight with medical school admissions. It probably didn't. When I was in medical school, I had fellow classmates ranging from Ivy League to someone with a GED and community college credits (?). In the attending world, when I look up my consultants, they also went a wife variety of undergrads and medical schools. Ultimately, the MCAT is the great equalizer for medical school admissions. Then the steps are the great equalizers for residency. Thankfully medical school is not like law school, where people are saying "T14 or bust." It's more like if you go to a US school, whether MD or DO, you will most likely be fine.

 

[KnightDoc]

The MCAT is the great equalizer. Do well on that and you can go to T20 if you maintain that GPA and your EC's are good.

This^^^. It's the age old chicken and egg question. Are the schools over represented because there is an inherent preference for them, or because they disproportionately produce excellent candidates? I think it's the latter. If I was wrong, the number of people with 4.0s/517+ who don't get in anywhere would be much higher, since, surely, you are not the only person applying from a non-T20 UG with such stats.

 

[bobadoz]

I went to a T15 non-Ivy undergrad. I thought it would have had more weight with medical school admissions. It probably didn't. When I was in medical school, I had fellow classmates ranging from Ivy League to someone with a GED and community college credits (?). In the attending world, when I look up my consultants, they also went a wife variety of undergrads and medical schools. Ultimately, the MCAT is the great equalizer for medical school admissions. Then the steps are the great equalizers for residency. Thankfully medical school is not like law school, where people are saying "T14 or bust." It's more like if you go to a US school, whether MD or DO, you will most likely be fine.

Agreed! I would be ecstatic and very blessed to attend any medical school. I've been in the same city my whole life, and it's just a little sad that I'll most likely stay here again for medical school and possibly residency.

 

[bobadoz]

Undergrad prestige may add a couple points, but bear in mind also that there's a bit of self selection. People that care about prestige are more likely to go to a prestigious undergrad and care about getting into a prestigious med school. People that don't care about prestige are more likely to go to a less prestigious undergrad and not care about getting into a prestigious med school.

Other questions to consider: Why do you want to go to a top 20 med school or USCD or NYU? What do you think they'll offer you that other med schools can't? What are you hoping to do with your career, and what do you need from your med school to help you get there?

I'm not necessarily set on going to a T20. I turned down more prestigious universities for undergrad because it was the smart thing to do financially. I've lived in the same place for 20 years now, and I hoped maybe med school might be the time where I got to explore, but I understand that life not that easy. My number one priority is to become a doctor, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't care where that dream becomes a reality.

Not to mention, step 1 is going pass/fail which could put a little more weight on med school prestige (but who knows). Thanks for the reply! 🙂

 

[Orims]

I went to an unknown state school for undergrad and attended a T5 for graduate school and will be attending one for medical school as well. I think prestigious schools definitely self select lots of their own students (Harvard Medicine accepts lots of Harvard undergrads, for example) for medical school and to a lesser degree for graduate school. The other majority, for both medschool and gradschool, come from Ivies, MIT, and T20 undergrad institutions. In my experience, and to a bigger degree in graduate school, the remaining folks come from all over: liberal arts schools I've never heard of, unknown state universities (like myself), and engineering schools that are not the big or famous ones (so not MIT, GT, etc).

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I go to a smaller, less respected Ohio state school for undergrad (just bc of cost reasons), and it's really discouraging to see how many people come from T20 undergrads -- even at places like OSU and Cinci. How do I have a chance at T20 med schools when even my state schools seem keen on students from more prestigious institutions. /:


I guess I'm afraid that, even if I have high stats, schools will just overlook me just bc I went to an undergrad school with no weight behind its name. Realistically, I am looking to stay in-state, but my dream schools like UCSD or NYU are just filled with amazing undergraduate schools. Any thoughts??

Just for context, I have a 4.0 and have been averaging ~517 on my AAMC FLs. I have good (but not outstanding) ECs. Thanks for any feedback 🙂

You are way too hung up on prestige. First, if you get accepted to medical school "even at places like OSU and Cinci", you should consider yourself extremely fortunate. In fact if you go to med school at Toledo, NeoCom or Wright State, about 30,000 people would happily take your place. Furthermore, medical school admissions committee staff don't have the time, data or inclination to handicap/normalize/adjust the 10,000 or so transcripts they see every year at most schools. Even if you go to Toledo or Cleveland State as an undergraduate, med schools aren't going to tattoo "dimwit" on you forehead.

I presume you are an Ohio resident. You should know that in the last reported medical school class the average MCAT score for Ohio residents was 511.1. If you have a 4.0 and a 510, have competitive ECs and interview with enthusiasm and humility, you will most likely get yourself admitted to 2 or 3 state schools in Ohio. See this.
2020_FACTS_Table_A-20.xlsx (aamc.org)

Good luck.

 

[KnightDoc]

You are way too hung up on prestige. First, if you get accepted to medical school "even at places like OSU and Cinci", you should consider yourself extremely fortunate. In fact if you go to med school at Toledo, NeoCom or Wright State, about 30,000 people would happily take your place. Furthermore, medical school admissions committee staff don't have the time, data or inclination to handicap/normalize/adjust the 10,000 or so transcripts they see every year at most schools. Even if you go to Toledo or Cleveland State as an undergraduate, med schools aren't going to tattoo "dimwit" on you forehead.

I presume you are an Ohio resident. You should know that in the last reported medical school class the average MCAT score for Ohio residents was 511.1. If you have a 4.0 and a 510, have competitive ECs and interview with enthusiasm and humility, you will most likely get yourself admitted to 2 or 3 state schools in Ohio. See this.
2020_FACTS_Table_A-20.xlsx (aamc.org)

Good luck.

You know, I heard this a lot when I was deciding where to attend UG, and then, when I jumped into the weeds after getting serious about med school, it's turning out it's not exactly true.

It turns out that there are around 20 or so UGs med schools do value above all others, and it doesn't take much time at all to figure out which schools those are. The big question is just how big of a boost they confer, and whether the relationship is cause or correlation, but there is no question a relationship is there.

"Too hung up" on prestige is always open for debate, but, denying the value of prestige in a process in which 30,000 people are anxiously awaiting the opportunity to take someone's place is at least a little naive, if not outright misleading. As awesome as it might be for the majority of applicants to have the opportunity to attend Toledo, NeoCom or Wright State, do they really produce the same results as Harvard, Stanford and Hopkins? If not, maybe prestige has at least some value after all. 🙂 How else would you explain a 3.7/510 from Princeton having better luck in this process than someone coming out of Cleveland State with the same stats?

I honestly don't know if I would have done things differently if I knew then what I know now, but, as I nervously enter the process, I don't doubt the increased value of a T20 UG over a T500, all else being equal. There is no shortage of people with excellent stats and impressive experiences applying from T20 schools.

In an environment in which no one has "the time, data or inclination to handicap/normalize/adjust the 10,000 or so transcripts they see every year at most schools," it is hard to deny the benefit of having a transcript from one of 20 or so well known, name brand, prestigious institutions. I really hope you are right, but I fear you are not.

 

[EileenX]

I went to a non-T20 state school, and honestly, I think I had better results than a lot of my peers who went to T20 schools. All else being equal, I think going to a T20 school might give you an edge, but being top 1-5% of your state school is better than being top 25-50% of a T20 school (for example, I had friends much "smarter" than me with "worse" cycle results from schools like MIT or Hopkins due to the rigor of their coursework and competition of their peers). Of course, being top 1-5% of a T20 is the best (and those are the people sweeping the T10 medical schools), but realistically, how many people can do that, and ultimately, you can only attend one school.

Yea, there is home institution bias, especially at schools like Harvard and Stanford, but overall, things check out to me. People generally end up where their stats/activities seem to predict, whether they came from a T10 or a T200 (I had four friends make Harvard Medical School recently, 2 were from Harvard/MIT, 1 was from my state school, and 1 was from a T200). The main argument to go to a T20 for undergrad is mainly that there is more opportunities and mentorship, but if you can get the same experiences from your undergraduate institution, I don't think there's too big of a difference. It just requires more initiative and effort on an individual's part.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Realistically, I am looking to stay in-state, but my dream schools like UCSD or NYU are just filled with amazing undergraduate schools. Any thoughts??

If you are looking to stay in-state, then why does it matter who goes to UCSD or NYU? Like, I get what you're saying, it sucks on some level that prestige matters, but it seems like this falls squarely in the pile of Things That you Can't Change and doesn't really matter to you anyways 🙂

If it helps at all, the question of whether it's better to come from a "name brand" school vs. be a "big fish in a small pond" is something I considered when I was choosing undergrad many, many years ago, and there is still no right answer. You made an entirely reasonable decision for yourself for good reasons. Be confident in your choice and keep doing your best to make the right decision for you going forward rather than wondering about what might've happened if you'd done things differently.

 

[Davidfromcali]

It’s not that med schools prefer students from prestigious colleges; more that prestigious college are more likely to produce a greater number of competitive med school applicants which is why they tend to be highly represented in med schools across the country.

 

[JesusInvert]

I’ve seen both sides of this. Started 2 years at a small college in the middle of nowhere and then I transferred and got my undergrad degree from a T-15 non-ivy. It has more to do with the type of students each school attracts and retains. At the smaller college, it was pretty rare for graduates to go on to medical school outside of our state school (for which there was only 1-2 during my time). At the non-ivy T-15 the grads went EVERYWHERE. But then again, they attracted and retained geniuses. So, I would predict that prestige wouldn’t matter as much for state schools while other schools it might be a greater influence. However, you won’t get overlooked with a beautiful MCAT score, but if it’s subpar-average you might be overlooked more easily. This is all IMO and based on my experience btw.

 

[Konigstiger]

I have been told by multiple former members of med school admission committees that undergrad prestige does not matter. Speaking personally, I went to a Top 10 undergrad and it did not help me at all.

It may give you a boost if they are comparing you to another applicant with the same exact stats but from a lower tier school. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

 

[ingobingo]

I really don't think it matters people who go to prestigious colleges are surrounded by better opportunities they are also more likely able to understand what it takes and what kind of activities you need for these prestigious schools. Most people end up where their stats and activities placed them, if someone from a small undergrad has the stats and the right activities I don't think there at any disadvantage in admission decisions compared to people from top 20 undergrads.

I went to a non-T20 state school, and honestly, I think I had better results than a lot of my peers who went to T20 schools. All else being equal, I think going to a T20 school might give you an edge, but being top 1-5% of your state school is better than being top 25-50% of a T20 school (for example, I had friends much "smarter" than me with "worse" cycle results from schools like MIT or Hopkins due to the rigor of their coursework and competition of their peers). Of course, being top 1-5% of a T20 is the best (and those are the people sweeping the T10 medical schools), but realistically, how many people can do that, and ultimately, you can only attend one school.

Yea, there is home institution bias, especially at schools like Harvard and Stanford, but overall, things check out to me. People generally end up where their stats/activities seem to predict, whether they came from a T10 or a T200 (I had four friends make Harvard Medical School recently, 2 were from Harvard/MIT, 1 was from my state school, and 1 was from a T200). The main argument to go to a T20 for undergrad is mainly that there is more opportunities and mentorship, but if you can get the same experiences from your undergraduate institution, I don't think there's too big of a difference. It just requires more initiative and effort on an individual's part.

Echoing these sentiments

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Only going to Harvard and Stanford for UG seems to help with getting into T10 medical schools.

 

[ingobingo]

Only going to Harvard and Stanford for UG seems to help with getting into T10 medical schools.

I don't agree with this - there are a group of undergraduate institutions that consistently feed into T10s (and a sizeable subset that feeds into the T10s at lower averages than the reported mean/medians on MSAR), and while they include Harvard and Stanford, it isn't that narrowly limited to them (I'd also argue that the "lower" stats are due to the successful applicants from a school having connections/extraordinary or unique experiences that make them an attractive candidate). It's definitely not the school, but the student's accomplishments, that ultimately determines the outcome of his/her cycle when discussing institutions that are well-known in academic circles (i.e. Ivies+ and schools that are known for their strong premed program).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don't agree with this - there are a group of undergraduate institutions that consistently feed into T10s (and a sizeable subset that feeds into the T10s at lower averages than the reported mean/medians on MSAR), and while they include Harvard and Stanford, it isn't that narrowly limited to them.

I am only taking about having an advantage (like slight bump for lower GPA or lower MCAT). Typically those get with lower averages have some other hook (URM/strong ECs, athletes or military etc..). Based on personal I believe going to Harvard or Stanford does seem to help ORMs to get into T10 schools.

 

[ingobingo]

I am only taking about having an advantage (like slight bump for lower GPA or lower MCAT). Typically those get with lower averages have some other hook (URM/strong ECs, athletes or military etc..). Based on personal I believe going to Harvard or Stanford does seem to help ORMs to get into T10 schools.

I guess we can agree to disagree here, but I am going to put my foot down on my statement based on my own personal experience as well as my own personal network and discussions with friends/school advisors and admissions directors. Even from my discussions with an (admittedly small) sample size of students who attend "top" medical schools and are ORM (I myself am an ORM), all of them have impressed me regardless of their undergraduate background (which range the gamut but definitely concentrated towards the Top 30 or so undergraduate institutions).

 

[JesusInvert]

I guess we can agree to disagree here, but I am going to put my foot down on my statement based on my own personal experience as well as my own personal network and discussions with friends/school advisors and admissions directors. Even from my discussions with an (admittedly small) sample size of students who attend "top" medical schools and are ORM (I myself am an ORM), all of them have impressed me regardless of their undergraduate background (which range the gamut but definitely concentrated towards the Top 30 or so undergraduate institutions).

I don’t think there is one clear answer and it is very much school dependent for what each ADCOM looks for. I personally have experience and know those on other ADCOMs who view this differently where undergrad prestige does matter, especially when comparing applicants with similar applications.

Also, i personally think the idea of the mcat being an equalizer is inappropriate. It fails to consider that those who are privileged have greater access to resources and prep that will help them succeed and score higher than those who are not privileged. So it’s not really an equalizer and does suffer from some of the same faults the SAT/ACT suffer from.

 

[ingobingo]

I don’t think there is one clear answer and it is very much school dependent for what each ADCOM looks for. I personally have experience and know those on other ADCOMs who view this differently where undergrad prestige does matter, especially when comparing applicants with similar applications.

Also, i personally think the idea of the mcat being an equalizer is inappropriate. It fails to consider that those who are privileged have greater access to resources and prep that will help them succeed and score higher than those who are not privileged. So it’s not really an equalizer and does suffer from some of the same faults the SAT/ACT suffer from.

I should clarify that undergrad prestige does matter, but it seems to matter in buckets and isn't as granular as I think most people think it to be (i.e. going to a T10/20/30 undergrad won't put you at any disadvantage or give you any advantage over another school in terms of getting into T10 medical schools - these UG schools are already incredibly selective; going to a T200 school that isn't known for its premed program is another story). I also believe it's very hard to have "similar applications" (outside of stats) because there are so many components to the medical school application, including the reflective component that aims to convey why you want to become a physician in the first place.

Agree with you on the MCAT being an equalizer being inappropriate, although it's more of a symptom of an entire education system that favors those who are privileged (starts from preschool/elementary school and only gets more competitive/more selective/more expensive from there).

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I don’t think there is one clear answer and it is very much school dependent for what each ADCOM looks for. I personally have experience and know those on other ADCOMs who view this differently where undergrad prestige does matter, especially when comparing applicants with similar applications.

Also, i personally think the idea of the mcat being an equalizer is inappropriate. It fails to consider that those who are privileged have greater access to resources and prep that will help them succeed and score higher than those who are not privileged. So it’s not really an equalizer and does suffer from some of the same faults the SAT/ACT suffer from.

How much one spends on MCAT on average? My son bought one set of books and 6 months of UWorld , total spending around $400. We keep using income disparities to eliminate all tests.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Isn't that everything in life? The MCAT is the most objective metric someone motivated can every material needed for less than $500. Money will always play a role in life when studying for STEP I'm sure your income level will dictate the materials you have to study with. Money plays a role in grades, the undergrad your able to go to, where and how many hours you can volunteer your connections in life. While taking the MCAT the money aspect is still there but it's by far the most objective metric plus schools try to recruit low SES students. You cannot ever have a metric that removes income level from the equation it's impossible.

Agree completely. In fact, undergraduate GPA is probably even more influenced by affluence than the MCAT. Wealthy kid can take 14-15 units, have no job, and hire a tutor. Poor kid might have to work 20-30 hours a week and not be able to afford tutoring. Money provides lots of advantages in life. Any MCAT advantage from $$$ is pretty minimal.

 

[deleted1025488]

Agree completely. In fact, undergraduate GPA is probably even more influenced by affluence than the MCAT. Wealthy kid can take 14-15 units, have no job, and hire a tutor. Poor kid might have to work 20-30 hours a week and not be able to afford tutoring. Money provides lots of advantages in life. Any MCAT advantage from $$$ is pretty minimal.

Well, you could apply the same logic to the MCAT. I have plenty of friends with wealthy physician parents who spent the entirety of COVID summer hyperfocused on MCAT studying and shadowing since their research was mostly either absent or remote aka very little engagement; most of them scored extremely high. I also have some friends, albeit less, who/whose families were struggling to financially survive during the pandemic, not to mention care about the MCAT, something they probably would have been doing otherwise....they did not find the same MCAT success when they took it earlier this year when things started dying down and jobs were back to normal. I wouldn't consider them any different in regard to studying capability or student quality compared to those who scored like 5-10 points higher than them during the summer since they had infinite free time.

Obviously, I still think the MCAT is fair, generally, but it's definitely not truly equitable. Something ridiculous I also encountered was two copy-pasted questions from practice AAMC FL3 and FL4 on my real exam....so essentially if you had dropped the $70 on them, you would have gotten two free questions (could be the difference between 0 or 2 points, who knows). They weren't easy questions either. Sometimes the AAMC really makes me wonder...

 

[deleted555445]

I am only taking about having an advantage (like slight bump for lower GPA or lower MCAT). Typically those get with lower averages have some other hook (URM/strong ECs, athletes or military etc..). Based on personal I believe going to Harvard or Stanford does seem to help ORMs to get into T10 schools.

My guess is that school names can help in some situations, but its varied. For example, some app review may be impressed by seeing Harvard, Yale, or Stanford on an app, but another may know that those schools are known for heavy grade inflation and instead favor seeing schools like Princeton, MIT, or UChicago, which are known for deflation. A third reviewer may have gone to a big state school and think that the top USNWR schools promote elitism, or may hold a grudge that they were rejected by Columbia 20 years ago when they applied to college.

The answer most likely is, it really probably never hurts, but it doesn't reliably help. The best bump you can get from your school is if your school constantly sends good medical students to a specific med school... the school will trust that your college prepared you well and your advisor's opinion that you are the best thing since sliced bread is valuable.

 

[BeMoConsulting]

Most applicants feel that if they attended a prestigious school, they will have higher chances of acceptance. However, med schools only care if you performed well academically and if you meet the requirements. So, you don’t need to attend an ivy league school. Just remember that experiences and qualities are important too, and as long as these align with the program’s mission and values, you could gain admission. In fact, sometimes attending a notable school may hurt you as an applicant since there’s greater competition, bigger classrooms leading to less interactions with the professors, which can potentially lead to poor relationships and weak reference letters. What’s important here is how competitive you are based on your stats and the other components of your application (i.e., previous experience with research, volunteering, shadowing, ECs, etc.). Schools will look at these to determine if you are a good fit for their program, so make sure you really highlight your essential qualities and all the skills you have developed through different experiences and activities. Best of luck!

 

[preMedFalcon]

Medical schools simply do not care about where you went for undergrad. They care about your individual merits and overall application. Please don't listen to anyone who tells you that undergrad prestige matters for med school admissions, because that is simply not true. No advisor or other credible person will ever tell you that med schools will prefer applicants who graduated from prestigious undergrad institutions.

Some have mentioned that they do look differently at different schools, which basically means that they are aware that some of these "famous" schools have challenging curriculums and certain grading systems. In other words, if you graduated from such a school with a certain GPA, they may look differently at your application when comparing it with another.

But the most important fact is that medical school will not care about where you went for undergrad and how much prestige it has.

 

[deleted1025488]

This guy's search history^^^:

"Does medical school prestige matter for residency?
Does undergraduate school matter for medical school?
Do residencies care about your school name?
Does elementary school prestige matter for middle school?
Does middle school prestige matter for high school?
Does my country prestige matter for medical school?
Does my dad's prestige matter for Dean's list?
Does my clothing prestige matter for medical school?"

Lmao @preMedFalcon let the prestige threads rest my friend we get u

 

[preMedFalcon]

Does elementary school prestige matter for middle school?
Does middle school prestige matter for high school?
Does my country prestige matter for medical school?
Does my dad's prestige matter for Dean's list?
Does my clothing prestige matter for medical school?"

LOL the exaggeration is hilarious.

And btw, I'm pretty sure there are A LOT more of these prestige threads that were posted by others (such as the OP) than the 3 that were posted by me, but for some reason, it's only an issue when I post them.

But to answer these, it's NO 😎