You cannot be serious.
She can report you to your school for being unprofessional and that would certainly end any chance you had at appealing this matter.
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Unfair Accusation
Started by Lazybug
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You cannot be serious.
She can report you to your school for being unprofessional and that would certainly end any chance you had at appealing this matter.
And the dearth of common sense!
Oh well. I gotta go dump coffee on the head of one of my indentured servants.
And the dearth of common sense!
Oh well. I gotta go dump coffee on the head of one of my indentured servants.
Or better yet maybe get a life. Not quite sure how you find so much time with your very "important" job that you have. I'm guessing it's not just my thread you're posting in Q5min. Your posts are of no use to this thread regardless of the fact that you paid $250 to get a large avatar and a virtual trophy. Sorry granny.
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I don't think you are being fair to Sparda here. He would have had measures in place to insure he wasn't caught, and a backup excuse in case he did get caught. Sparda doesn't usually come off sounding naive or clueless in his stories.
I agree with that statement.
Very practical advice.
Sounds like a good employee. 👍
Most conversations IRL don't stick to one topic and neither do we. 😉
I find Its almost always the mods that hijacks a thread with their "humor' lol man this sucks u were dismissed for printing stuff out, I print out tons of info when I work up patients, its ridiculous trying to copy everything down and toggle between screens...but ANYWAYS...
in this case, more impt question is, did or does the other 2 students print out info? if they did or still do, then u have a strong case
I'm just glad b4 our rotations, my school told us to report anything going on with our preceptors if we suspect sth is wrong and have clear protocols...b/c unlike what some have said here, there are bad preceptors, although my preceptors so far have been great
If she said "I prefer" rather than "you must" or things of that nature, you are golden. Preference is not a mandate. I prefer a pullthrough spot in a parking lot. I prefer Pespi to Coca Cola. In both cases, I would settle for an alternate, as it is preference, not necessity. If she said she preferred manual copying, that is far different from saying "you must handwrite it or you will fail this rotation." But in any case, handwriting the data would still contain the same PHI.
From what you have said, HIPAA was never violated, at any point. Names were blacked out while off-site, and the second incident took place in the pharmacy. There is not a pharmacy in America that has zero PHI. It would literally be impossible to accomplish any task without it.
But there was no violation, based on what we're hearing. Is a de-identified SOAP note a HIPAA violation? Schools nationwide certainly hope the answer is "no." If you are taking part in that patient's care, you are a covered entity and you are allowed to view and use the data to coordinate your care. Maybe the site did have some bizarrely restrictive policy, but unless the patient's address was 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, I don't see why you would ever be so secretive.
I think she is part-owner of this site or something. Plus she's am-care and has students, so if there are no patients to be seen, or her students are seeing them, you could potentially have a lot of time for other projects.
Well now that I know what you look like, I'll be sure to have a special pile for you. You're being incredibly nasty to a well respected poster and if your RL persona mimics your online one, I'd say your preceptor was probably spot on in her assessment.
Good luck in your endeavors. Hopefully they will bring you some maturity.
I didn't know SHC had a sister.
Whether or not you did something wrong or something serious enough to warrant being kicked off of a rotation, how you conduct yourself dealing with it can make a huge difference in the outcome. Speak with the preceptor (professionally) to find out everything that went wrong- maybe there is more that you were doing that she was unhappy with that you were unaware of. Ask the students you were on rotation with if they saw something different from you. Ask former preceptors for more detailed evaluations/letters to support you in the appeal. Be humble, professional, and look for a solution rather than just being angry.
Also, just because someone is a student doesn't mean they are entitled to anything. There are bad preceptors out there, but all preceptors deserve respect from the start. They are taking on extra work and responsibility by being a preceptor and usually aren't paid any extra for it.
Also, just because someone is a student doesn't mean they are entitled to anything. There are bad preceptors out there, but all preceptors deserve respect from the start. They are taking on extra work and responsibility by being a preceptor and usually aren't paid any extra for it.
and so starts the usual butt-kissing....
👍
Seriously. Find a zen moment, calm down, and focus on your goals. Obviously the biggest goal is to graduate on time, without having to pay for the privilege of a bonus rotation. If the only thing you did wrong was print out something that irked the preceptor, then a positive attitude and respect should go a long way with your appeal board. If they detect your disdain for the preceptor, preceptors in general, the unfairness of pharmacy school, etc, you're dead in the water.
I thought we'd actually been pretty good this time around. 😉
I'm just saying it's possible you did something wrong that you were unaware of, and that would be important to know as you start the appeals process. I've seen more than one student thing they were amazing and did everything right when they were actually being unprofessional, breaking rules, and/or their knowledge was not where they thought it was. And if you go into anything saying you shouldn't respect the preceptor and they don't deserve to be a preceptor, you aren't going to help your case. If they truly are failing you because you printed patient info to save time (not really because you needed it- you could have written it down or typed up a list without their name and printed that) and the school feels it's unreasonable they will re-evaluate the preceptor without your opinion.
On a side note- I wasn't allowed to print out patient information on some PGY1 and PGY2 rotations. Some preceptors are unreasonably stringent about that, but it's something you deal with when you're trying to learn from them and gain experience.
With that, I'm done trying to offer advice here.
Enough.
We can discuss this all day long, but calling each other out is not going to fly. No more.
Enough.
We can discuss this all day long, but calling each other out is not going to fly. No more.
Agreed. Pre pharm was a long time ago
I remember those days quite fondly considering the stress second and third year brings! Oh, those were the days! 😛
Agreed. Pre pharm was a long time ago
Just wait until you are on rotations and get failed for printing something that you were never told not to print! Talk about stressful.
Though to date I have never printed a med list or patient profile when working patients up - I just use the computer. Personal preference I guess.
Just wait until you are on rotations and get failed for printing something that you were never told not to print! Talk about stressful.
Though to date I have never printed a med list or patient profile when working patients up - I just use the computer. Personal preference I guess.
Do I sense sarcasm? 😉
I don't usually print stuff like that either. We don't typically do it at my institution so I'm just not used to it. At my rural rotations, it was paper based so I did look at charts but they never left the nurses station. As I said, there seems to be quite a bit of variation between sites. When I go on rotation, I'll be certain to review each institution's policy regarding PHI, med lists or otherwise.
Just wait until you are on rotations and get failed for printing something that you were never told not to print! Talk about stressful.
Though to date I have never printed a med list or patient profile when working patients up - I just use the computer. Personal preference I guess.
Have you worked up 10+ patients in a day, and especially when you have to round with an orthosurg team at 5:30-6am b/c surgeries are usually at 7-8am??? You better have a stack of patients' info at your disposal as you round just in case the attending or resident asks what meds the patient is or was on, any changes made, and what changes you want to make.
But I guess it varies by institution, and the workload of that particular rotation. At the 3 hospitals I rotated at, EVERY healthcare worker (MDs, nurses, pharmacists, dieticians...) always print out the current patients' list for the day and carry them around, and make notes/changes as needed during rounds.
A preceptor is REQUIRED to tell the student if they were doing something wrong (at least a competent preceptor would) at the first sign of mistake. And if the student is in danger of failing, a competent preceptor would sit down with the student ASAP, document that, and notify the school to track the student's progress.
A student should ALWAYS know where he/she stands by the halfway point of a rotation (if they were doing great/mediocre/struggling/failing).
And you guys need to relax. I highly doubt the OP would go into this appeals process calling his/her preceptor a bozo and demanding her to be fired. It's an internet forum
. If the OP indeed acts like that in person, I'm sure there wouldn't even be an appeal process lol. Lack of professionalism is the first thing that would get you destroyed ANYWHERE, even in a classroom, let alone a rotation.
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I rounded with a laptop. If no laptop was available I can see the need for printing. Obviously that isn't the case for the OP though. 😉
Basically that would be the same thing as printing things and carrying them around 😉. Now I'm sure institutions that restricts this "printing" policy (like AM4D states), laptops are most likely provided in cases where the workload is heavy (work-up 10+ patients).
But that would be awesome to carry your laptop/Ipads around to round. Always wished I could do that. Would have saved a lot of trees.
I have my iPad when I'm rounding... I wish I could use a iPod though.
I would have responded to this earlier but I've been busy playing Call of Duty... oh wait. No, that's not right. I actually just finished teaching my last class before maternity leave. And my students had a party for me so I had to eat some of the leftovers before I got online. 😀
At that institution with the strict privacy policy, we rotated with a computer terminal that was on this wheeled cart. Since it was all EMR, whoever was "driving" would pull the patient up and type in the notes, recommendations and whatever.
To get ready for rounds, I would look up my patients at a secure terminal ahead of time and jot down paper notes like:
I usually worked up 10 to 12 patients. Highest was 15 I think. I made enough notes so that I knew what I wanted to address on rounds, what questions to ask, etc. After rounds I'd go back to my computer and put in my progress notes. Very little paper was involved - save the trees! 😀
A preceptor is REQUIRED to tell the student if they were doing something wrong (at least a competent preceptor would) at the first sign of mistake. And if the student is in danger of failing, a competent preceptor would sit down with the student ASAP, document that, and notify the school to track the student's progress.
A student should ALWAYS know where he/she stands by the halfway point of a rotation (if they were doing great/mediocre/struggling/failing).
And you guys need to relax. I highly doubt the OP would go into this appeals process calling his/her preceptor a bozo and demanding her to be fired. It's an internet forum
If the OP indeed acts like that in person, I'm sure there wouldn't even be an appeal process lol. Lack of professionalism is the first thing that would get you destroyed ANYWHERE, even in a classroom, let alone a rotation.
I agree that preceptors should be continually providing feedback to students- no matter if they are in danger of failing or the best student they've ever seen. Midpoint evaluations are generally a requirement of rotations, and if this preceptor is failing to provide one in a timely manner the school should be aware of this. That of course doesn't mean it has to be on the exact halfway point in the rotation, but definitely with enough time to make changes or reinforce positive skills.
I never accused the OP of planning on going to the school with an attitude, but I have seen students approach faculty that way after exams (hello, arguing for 30 minutes over a single question after the professor has explained why you're wrong) and after getting negative feedback on rotation. A very intelligent student in my class reacted very poorly after being told his tone was getting in his way of succeeding on the rotation- he gave off the impression that he was better than and knew more than everyone else, including the attending physicians and preceptors. I just wanted to remind OP that that's generally not going to help them.
I also wanted to reinforce the point that sometimes we don't know when we're screwing up- especially if we aren't getting routine feedback. One major skill I gained as a student and resident was the ability to accurately evaluate my performance, and this is something that I am still improving at and will for a long time.
But of course, I'm sure this is all bad advice.
I just don't think we have the whole story here. I agree that there should be documentation of student performance, but it really sounds like this dismissal was about privacy policy violations. If that's the case, then the first time was the "don't do this" warning and the 2nd time was the "here's the door" dismissal. If that was how it went down, how much more documentation could a preceptor offer?
I think it's far more likely that there were other performance and potentially some attitude issues working against the OP. Like I said, we aren't getting the entire picture. But there are some... er... "clues" we can pick up from this thread.
I think it's far more likely that there were other performance and potentially some attitude issues working against the OP. Like I said, we aren't getting the entire picture. But there are some... er... "clues" we can pick up from this thread.
I don't own SDN. No one owns SDN. It's a nonprofit educational organization. But I do have a very flexible amb care job that gives me lots of time for other projects, like working for this site. I love setting my own schedule. Like right now, I should be grading stuff from the class I taught tonight, but I'm playing around on here. I might do a few patient med reviews (online) before bed. Or not. Tomorrow, I'm doing a PRN staffing shift at the independent pharmacy, so I won't have as much freedom. 🙁 But Friday is another work from home day. 😀
We're talking about a student on a rotation here, not an experienced pharmacist. And the particular rotation I was providing an example (orthosurg-and we all know how pain mangement can be a hassle for students, especially if they are beginning their rotations), a student has 30-60 minutes to work up 10+ patients (rounds usually start at 7am, and students are advised to come in at 6am to work up as much as possible). Maybe your rotation site has superb students 😍
I just don't think we have the whole story here. I agree that there should be documentation of student performance, but it really sounds like this dismissal was about privacy policy violations. If that's the case, then the first time was the "don't do this" warning and the 2nd time was the "here's the door" dismissal. If that was how it went down, how much more documentation could a preceptor offer?
I think it's far more likely that there were other performance and potentially some attitude issues working against the OP. Like I said, we aren't getting the entire picture. But there are some... er... "clues" we can pick up from this thread.
So "don't do this" verbal warning is adequate for you?
If this violation could fail a student on 2nd notice, something much more than a verbal warning is warranted in this case. I mean, I would assume the preceptor pulls out the guideline and repeats that over with the student, document in writing that a warning has been provided, and the student has to sign the acknowledgement of this warning.
I've never seen a 1st verbal warning that would then result in a dismissal/failure when being caught the same time on a rotation. That preceptor would definitely needs a re-assessment if that is the case.
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Yeah, I know what we're talking about. I am describing my experience there as a STUDENT. I did three rotations there: IM, ICU and geriatrics/hospice. With minimal use of paper. And no flash drives. And definitely no taking PHI home. The geriatrics/hospice rotation was my first rotation, and it was hard, but I figured out how to adapt to the system. I made a lot of notes at first, but that diminished with time.
Now, as a pharmacist, I don't make notes at all. I don't work in a hospital either, but I do comprehensive reviews of patient med lists, and I just eyeball things and make my recommendation.
Then you must have been a superb student while on rotations. 👍
On the other hand, I still see pharmacists/residents (including doctors) who carry out a clip of patients' info as they round while I was rotating (at my particular sites anyways)
As a current preceptor myself (and former student), I put this more on the preceptor if the student doesn't know their weaknesses as they go through a rotation (the student should be held accountable also).
But like you said, most (should be all) rotations should have a midpoint evaluation. Students are sat down personally by the preceptor. Then students should be provided what their strengths and weaknesses are, and the preceptors should also provide suggestions on how to improve those weaknesses (students make take them or not, but it's your job as a preceptor that students are on a path to improvement).
Like I said, by the midpoint of a rotation, EVERY student should know where they stand, and what they need to work on. If they were given a warning or did poorly, they would know they were in danger of failing.
My post wasn't going against you. It was my view of rotation evaluation in general.
On rotations, I found that the more I printed out or wrote, the more confused I got. And I hated shuffling through all that paper and carrying it around... especially since I started at the place with the restrictive policies/minimal paper and got used to that.
It's all what you are used to, and what is permissible at your institution. Students should just familiarize themselves with institutional policies and follow them. It's much easier that way.
I agree with all of this, but it only applies to PERFORMANCE issues. Privacy policy violations are basically disciplinary issues, so the documentation is different. And who knows what kind of documentation the OP was actually provided? We aren't getting the entire story...
+1.
And if the OP's act was not permitted, I'm sure the preceptor (or at least I would hope) would have brought out the policies and point that out. "Here, OP. You can fail for doing this."
From the OP's story, his first warning was being "yelled at" lol.We may not be getting the entire story, but this post IS about the OP's story. So I am giving my opinions/advice based on the pretense that his story is the truth. Like I've said, I have dealt with unreasonable preceptors before so I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt.
If OP is the one on the avatar I would never flunk her because she's cute. But since she will marry up and have a baby, I wouldn't hire her because she will abuse maternity benefits. Well but since she will marry up, she won't need to work anyways.
Though I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Surprised its not locked.
Though I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Surprised its not locked.
Though I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. Surprised its not locked.
Should be locked until OP has the result of the appeal process 🙂
One of my students made something called "Neiman Marcus" dip for the baby shower. It tastes like a loaded baked potato. It's delicious!
That sounds delicious
I love how medical students get to take pictures with their cellphones while on rotations about the crazy **** they see in ER and surgery to later brag to their non-medical friends, while a pharmacy student can't print out a little EMR.
I don't know where you've been working, but that's not permitted at most places. There was a surgical resident who was dismissed in his 5th or 6th year of residency for that very thing. It was on the national news and was widely discussed on this site at the time.
