Unfair Accusation

[pharm B]

The dissonance here is in our ideas on the role of the preceptor. HH sees preceptors as colleagues and counselors. My preceptors are often also clinical faculty who lecture, so I give them the same respect while working with them. A ban on printing out PHI is not unreasonable.

Edit:

According to SHC, the preceptor is making the RULES/POLICIES though??? (ok, I admit the example is very stupid. Just my way to point out how ludicrous her post is).

Failure to follow a "request" of a preceptor does not equal failure of the rotation, which she's COMPLETELY wrong on that. Schools have a set of things a preceptor has to fill out while evaluating a student. Not following a particular request (unless that requests correlates with an institution guideline/law) does not automatically fail a student .

I really need to know how her school evaluates its preceptors. Judging from what she says, it's rampant at her school.

Do you really believe it was this black and white? Simply printing something out twice led to her being failed?

That just doesn't happen. There's obviously more to this story. I'm sure she was always on time, always dressed professionally, acted courteously, etc... Something's not adding up.

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[All4MyDaughter]

According to SHC, the preceptor is making the RULES/POLICIES though??? (ok, I admit the example is very stupid. Just my way to point out how ludicrous her post is).

Failure to follow a "request" of a preceptor does not equal failure of the rotation, which she's COMPLETELY wrong on that. Schools have a set of things a preceptor has to fill out while evaluating a student. Not following a particular request (unless that requests correlates with an institution guideline/law) does not automatically fail a student .

I really need to know how her school evaluates its preceptors. Judging from what she says, it's rampant at her school.

The only thing ludicrous here is your "toilet" example. SHC is correct. I don't know where this "school nirvana" you attended is, (it seems like a mystical land where students have all the power and are allowed to scoff at their preceptors with impunity) but in general, the preceptor has a lot of latitude in setting the performance expectations of the rotation. Yes, there are standard educational outcomes that must be met for the student to complete the rotation, but HOW those are met is up to the preceptor. For instance, say a preceptor doesn't care for the standard format SOAP note and wants it done a different way. That's the preceptor's call. If the student is intelligent, they'll do it that way while they are on rotation and not be a dick about it. Likewise, if the preceptor doesn't want PHI printed, that's their call as well. It's as simple as that.

 

[doublehh03]

you make a lot of assumptions and you seem to have some issue with authority. It's very telling, though.

It's not about having a backbone. some students can actually be very whiny and lazy. I sometimes wonder if they just want everything their way by their rules because they were raised that way or something.

If I was teaching/mentoring/whatever a student with a ****ty attitude, I would probably find a professional way to call them on it....then make them "scrub toilets"

In all seriousness, if you have good communication skills, good work ethic, and really put forth the effort, I doubt there would be problems. That's why I call BS on ths situation to. I've interacted with plenty of preceptors and faculty. If you behave professionally and bring up issues in a professional manner, it can usually be worked out. Same goes for life in general. But you already know that

And you're now assuming I have issues with authority. Trust me, I'm as clean as you can get, and I get along with everybody (except for one preceptor, and that's the only individual I never got along with in any type of setting).

My point isn't going against authority. My point is the types of preceptors she's describing is absolutely disgusting to hear about. And these are very rare. Like I said, I have only interacted with one unreasonable preceptor (and others apparently reviewed him about it b/c he was DISMISSED from precepting students after my rotation). Every other preceptor I have interacted with have been awesome. They facilitated an environment for learning, and nothing else. All of the points I am making are primarily from my awesome experiences at my institution and rotations. Like I said, preceptors aren't your bosses. They're your colleagues, with tons of experience.

And you're correct. Most of the time, being professional, hard-working, courteous... you should get along with every person you meet. But trust me, there are some bad apples who just like to go on a power trip. SHC provided some examples

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Do you really believe it was this black and white? Simply printing something out twice led to her being failed?

That just doesn't happen. There's obviously more to this story. I'm sure she was always on time, always dressed professionally, acted courteously, etc... Something's not adding up.

Unless it's related to some institutional policy. I don't think we can trust the OP on this point. This whole story, particular recent timeline inconsistencies is sketchy.

Given her behavior toward people who failed to tell her what she wanted to hear in this thread, and given that she has now insulted everyone, edited all her posts and says she's left the site, I don't find her very credible. But yeah, I'm SURE her behavior was 100% perfect in every possible way on rotation. The preceptor just didn't like her.

 

[doublehh03]

The only thing ludicrous here is your "toilet" example. SHC is correct. I don't know where this "school nirvana" you attended is, (it seems like a mystical land where students have all the power and are allowed to scoff at their preceptors with impunity) but in general, the preceptor has a lot of latitude in setting the performance expectations of the rotation. Yes, there are standard educational outcomes that must be met for the student to complete the rotation, but HOW those are met is up to the preceptor. For instance, say a preceptor doesn't care for the standard format SOAP note and wants it done a different way. That's the preceptor's call. If the student is intelligent, they'll do it that way while they are on rotation and not be a dick about it. Likewise, if the preceptor doesn't want PHI printed, that's their call as well. It's as simple as that.

It's not a mystical land. It's called fairness, where both the preceptors and students are both colleagues, not bosses and employees. The preceptor uses their experience to help the student become a better health professional.

I agreed with you that preceptors can set their own "expectations" and "preferences." I stated that in my previous post. I disagree when preceptors set their own POLICIES/RULES/ That's completely different.

And to your SOAP example, should a preceptor fail a student if he/she sticks to how he/she was taught in the first 2 years of pharmacy school (on how to SOAP)? Maybe that's how he/she present it best. A good preceptor would find no problem with it, and is happy the student pointed out that they preferred it that way. You do not FORCE student how to SOAP a patient case (good example b/c this happens all the time in rotations. All the preceptors I've seen have allowed students to do how they want to go about their way of presenting patients, b/c it's them learning, not the preceptor). An unreasonable preceptor would be a dick about it and fail a student b/c he/she didn't SOAP the way the preceptor wants .


So no, it's not as simple as that.

 

[doublehh03]

Do you really believe it was this black and white? Simply printing something out twice led to her being failed?

That just doesn't happen. There's obviously more to this story. I'm sure she was always on time, always dressed professionally, acted courteously, etc... Something's not adding up.

Well, tell OP to post the final result. Then we all will know.

And according to allmydaughter, some places have that policy. Maybe the OP's preceptor worked at that place before and kept that policy with her forever???

Yes, you should always respect your preceptor, just like you respect any colleague or any person.

 

[pharm B]

We've had to learn two different SOAP formats at least, and each rotation area has their own tailored version they use. To suggest that the student should just use what they're familiar with and reject the format used at the site is ridiculous.

If a preceptor wants his students at work an hour before the other preceptor's (with the hours still counting of course) to work up their patients, that is that preceptor's rule. And it's an example of a fair one.

Regarding our OP, I don't think we've received the entire truth, and I don't expect it in the future.

 

[rxlea]

Unless it's related to some institutional policy. I don't think we can trust the OP on this point. This whole story, particular recent timeline inconsistencies is sketchy.

Given her behavior toward people who failed to tell her what she wanted to hear in this thread, and given that she has now insulted everyone, edited all her posts and says she's left the site, I don't find her very credible. But yeah, I'm SURE her behavior was 100% perfect in every possible way on rotation. The preceptor just didn't like her.

I FINALLY figured out who this chick was. I had to go back and look st old posts (the ones she referenced that I supposedly harassed her in). You see, I'm not a ****ty person so I won't go tell my friend at this girl's 3 year school about this thread or what her name is. But that's what happens when you post your pic or use your real name for a screen name

Although I am pretty annoyed she called you granny.

 

[doublehh03]

We've had to learn two different SOAP formats at least, and each rotation area has their own tailored version they use. To suggest that the student should just use what they're familiar with and reject the format used at the site is ridiculous.

If a preceptor wants his students at work an hour before the other preceptor's (with the hours still counting of course) to work up their patients, that is that preceptor's rule. And it's an example of a fair one.

Regarding our OP, I don't think we've received the entire truth, and I don't expect it in the future.

1) Not reject the site's format. But if the student works best with a particular format of SOAP-ing patients, a reasonable preceptor would understand. The purpose of that is for the student to learn how to work up and present patients in a clinical and professional format. You do NOT force a student to use a particular SOAP method.

2) You would say that's a rule or an advice/suggestion? I rotated at an orthosurg rotation and rounds start at 7am most days. My preceptor "suggests" I come early in the first 2 weeks to work up patients (b/c I'm not used to it yet). Once I am, I can come anytime I want as long as I can work up my patients appropriately before rounds. First 2 weeks, I came 1.5 hours early (yes, at 5:30am). Afterwards, I only came 30-45 minutes earlier. But the rotation primarily dictates the hours, not your preceptor.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

It's not a mystical land. It's called fairness, where both the preceptors and students are both colleagues, not bosses and employees. The preceptor uses their experience to help the student become a better health professional.

I agreed with you that preceptors can set their own "expectations" and "preferences." I stated that in my previous post. I disagree when preceptors set their own POLICIES/RULES/ That's completely different.

And to your SOAP example, should a preceptor fail a student if he/she sticks to how he/she was taught in the first 2 years of pharmacy school (on how to SOAP)? Maybe that's how he/she present it best. A good preceptor would find no problem with it, and is happy the student pointed out that they preferred it that way. You do not FORCE student how to SOAP a patient case (good example b/c this happens all the time in rotations. All the preceptors I've seen have allowed students to do how they want to go about their way of presenting patients, b/c it's them learning, not the preceptor). An unreasonable preceptor would be a dick about it and fail a student b/c he/she didn't SOAP the way the preceptor wants .


So no, it's not as simple as that.

It is that simple.

And learning how to do things based on institutional protocol, or corporate policy, or according to the supervisor's preferences is reasonable and part of being an adult professional. What kind of a student when told, "At this hospital, our patient notes are in XYZ format, not SOAP" can't adapt? Who would stubbornly cling to "But this how I learned it in school!" instead of trying to work within the framework of that institution? I learned different kinetics protocols during rotations. They weren't always consistent with how I learned in class. But when in Rome... Students might as well learn that on rotations, because they're going to have to conform/adapt/compromise in the working world.

The very WORST piece of advice you're slinging around is that a preceptor is somehow a peer or colleague and on equal ground with the student. You've been promoting that misinformation since you first spewed your "scoff at the preceptor" comment. Your preceptor is your FACULTY MEMBER, not your friend. As PharmB said, they should be given the same respect and consideration as the faculty members whose primary role is classroom teaching. So yeah, if they tell you to report at 6AM every day, when other students/preceptors come at 7AM, you show up at 6AM.

 

[doublehh03]

It is that simple.

And learning how to do things based on institutional protocol, or corporate policy, or according to the supervisor's preferences is reasonable and part of being an adult professional. What kind of a student when told, "At this hospital, our patient notes are in XYZ format, not SOAP" can't adapt? Who would stubbornly cling to "But this how I learned it in school!" instead of trying to work within the framework of that institution? I learned different kinetics protocols during rotations. They weren't always consistent with how I learned in class. But when in Rome... Students might as well learn that on rotations, because they're going to have to conform/adapt/compromise in the working world.

The very WORST piece of advice you're slinging around is that a preceptor is somehow a peer or colleague and on equal ground with the student. You've been promoting that misinformation since you first spewed your "scoff at the preceptor" comment. Your preceptor is your FACULTY MEMBER, not your friend. As PharmB said, they should be given the same respect and consideration as the faculty members whose primary role is classroom teaching.

Funny you say that. I went to UCSF, and I've treated ALL (except for one) of my preceptors as my friends/colleagues, with the utmost respect of course (just like they wanted me to). And it's the best time of my life as a student.

This is what Dr. Koda-Kimble (our dean once said) during our orientation to my small group. "I'm your colleague and friend. You can come to me with any problems about anything." I guess I took that to heart lol.

 

[owlegrad]

You know, I have had some preceptors refer to me as a colleague, which is nice, but not totally accurate. I don't have a degree or a license. I am still a student/intern and they are still the preceptor/faculty/"boss"/whatever. They DO set the rules for their rotation and to imply otherwise is setting people up for failure. Going into a rotation with the attitude that the only thing that matters is the student learning is probably not a recipe for success either.

I am going to let my preceptor tomorrow know that as far as I am concerned we are equals, he just has more experience than me. I will also let him know I am not following any rules I think are dumb and that as long as I am learning he should be happy with however I do things. I will let you know how that works out.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

We've had to learn two different SOAP formats at least, and each rotation area has their own tailored version they use. To suggest that the student should just use what they're familiar with and reject the format used at the site is ridiculous.

If a preceptor wants his students at work an hour before the other preceptor's (with the hours still counting of course) to work up their patients, that is that preceptor's rule. And it's an example of a fair one.

Regarding our OP, I don't think we've received the entire truth, and I don't expect it in the future.

His advice is ridic in general. I had 8 rotations, and patient note documentation was different at every single one of them. You learn to do it the way they want it at the site. And yes, I think it's reasonable to reduce the grade of a student who is unwilling/unable to make that adaptation.

I don't think the OP will be back. I think she got caught in some fibs and people started noticing the inconsistencies in her story, so she's edited her posts and departed. It's the SDN equivalent of taking your toys and going home.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

You know, I have had some preceptors refer to me as a colleague, which is nice, but not totally accurate. I don't have a degree or a license. I am still a student/intern and they are still the preceptor/faculty/"boss"/whatever. They DO set the rules for their rotation and to imply otherwise is setting people up for failure. Going into a rotation with the attitude that the only thing that matters is the student learning is probably not a recipe for success either.

I am going to let my preceptor tomorrow know that as far as I am concerned we are equals, he just has more experience than me. I will also let him know I am not following any rules I think are dumb and that as long as I am learning he should be happy with however I do things. I will let you know how that works out.

You should try that on your boss at the MTM company. Think she'd be receptive?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

The next time I work a PRN shift at the independent pharmacy, I'm going to do it my way and forget about their policies. I mean, I will just tell the owner that we are equals and although it's HIS personal business and he has owned it for 40 years, I don't have to follow their policies and procedures. I'm going to use my own system of doing things cuz that's how I learned it in school. If he gets upset I'll just say, "Hey brosef, why so uptight? Can I buy you a beer?" and I'm sure it will all be fine.

 

[doublehh03]

You know, I have had some preceptors refer to me as a colleague, which is nice, but not totally accurate. I don't have a degree or a license. I am still a student/intern and they are still the preceptor/faculty/"boss"/whatever. They DO set the rules for their rotation and to imply otherwise is setting people up for failure. Going into a rotation with the attitude that the only thing that matters is the student learning is probably not a recipe for success either.

I am going to let my preceptor tomorrow know that as far as I am concerned we are equals, he just has more experience than me. I will also let him know I am not following any rules I think are dumb and that as long as I am learning he should be happy with however I do things. I will let you know how that works out.

That's where you're wrong. If they considered you as a colleague, they wouldn't put "dumb" rules in the first place. And yes, they should facilitate a good learning environment, simply in a healthcare setting rather than the classroom.

Do your teachers ever force you to learn a certain way for a test? People learn different ways. Rotations are still a LEARNING site, not a WORKING site.

And to allmydaughter, do you really consider a preceptor-student relationship the same as boss-employee?? If so, pretty sad. People seem to mistake that a lot in this post.

 

[doublehh03]

The next time I work a PRN shift at the independent pharmacy, I'm going to do it my way and forget about their policies. I mean, I will just tell the owner that we are equals and although it's HIS personal business and he has owned it for 40 years, I don't have to follow their policies and procedures. I'm going to use my own system of doing things cuz that's how I learned it in school. If he gets upset I'll just say, "Hey brosef, why so uptight? Can I buy you a beer?" and I'm sure it will all be fine.

. Preceptors pay students???

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That's where you're wrong. If they considered you as a colleague, they wouldn't put "dumb" rules in the first place. And yes, they should facilitate a good learning environment, simply in a healthcare setting rather than the classroom.

Do your teachers ever force you to learn a certain way for a test? People learn different ways. Rotations are still a LEARNING site, not a WORKING site.

And to allmydaughter, do you really consider a preceptor-student relationship the same as boss-employee?? If so, pretty sad. People seem to mistake that a lot in this post.

The preceptor/student relationship is MUCH more closely related to the employee/boss relationship than it is to a colleague/colleague relationship. And I think you missed some of the nuance/sarcasm of owle's post. Must be a reading comprehension thing.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

. Preceptors pay students???

Nope, but the power differential in the relationship is the same as it is in the employee/boss relationship. The preceptor sets the rules and tone for the rotation, just as the employer does for the workplace. Rotations are, after all, intended to help students be ready to WORK as a pharmacist. In the real world, where they won't be allowed to cross their arms, stomp their foot and yell, "I do it MY way!"

You think you're so funny, but your points are just silly and weak. It's sad.

 

[doublehh03]

The preceptor/student relationship is MUCH more closely related to the employee/boss relationship than it is to a colleague/colleague relationship.

I disagree. Maybe UCSF was different for me. I never considered my rotations as work or my preceptor as my boss. Maybe that was why I totally loved my experience at UCSF.

That totally sucks if it were true at every pharmacy school (and reading from these posts, it may be). And maybe that's where we disagree wholeheartedly.

Nope, but the power differential in the relationship is the same as it is in the employee/boss relationship. The preceptor sets the rules and tone for the rotation, just as the employer does for the workplace.

You think you're so funny, but your points are just silly and weak. It's sad.

Since you're a preceptor yourself, it's sad that you think a preceptor-student relationship closely resembles that of a boss-employee relationship. No wonder I hear horror stories from students from other schools about their rotations and their preceptors (how they try to avoid this or that rotation b/c of this or that preceptor).

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Since you're a preceptor yourself, it's sad that you think a preceptor-student relationship closely resembles that of a boss-employee relationship. No wonder I hear horror stories from students from other schools about their rotations and their preceptors (how they try to avoid this or that rotation b/c of this or that preceptor).

That's your opinion. My student evaluations (classroom and precepting) speak for themselves. I'm fair and consistent and make expectations clear up front. But I do have standards that I expect students to adhere to, and I do challenge them to expand beyond what they've learned in the classroom and adapt to new ways of learning and doing things. How unreasonable!

I also think that the students who work/have worked for me (for pay) at my company have had a good experience as well. And if not, they are well compensated for their trouble.

But thanks for all the assumptions. You're really good at making those!

 

[rxlea]

That's your opinion. My student evaluations (classroom and precepting) speak for themselves. I'm fair and consistent and make expectations clear up front. But I do have standards that I expect students to adhere to, and I do challenge them to expand beyond what they've learned in the classroom and adapt to new ways of learning and doing things. How unreasonable!

Harrowing

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Harrowing

I'm so busted. I'm a bad, evil scary person who eats students for lunch and laughs about it. That must be why my students threw me a baby shower this past week and tried to convince me to hold off on having the baby for a few more weeks so I could finish up the term. My techs gave me a nice little party too. It was a good week!

 

[rxlea]

I'm so busted. I'm a bad, evil scary person who eats students for lunch and laughs about it. That must be why my students threw me a baby shower this past week and tried to convince me to hold off on having the baby for a few more weeks so I could finish up the term. My techs gave me a nice little party too. It was a good week!

Students must taste yummy with all that coffee you pour on their heads.

 

[SHC1984]

Since you're a preceptor yourself, it's sad that you think a preceptor-student relationship closely resembles that of a boss-employee relationship. No wonder I hear horror stories from students from other schools about their rotations and their preceptors (how they try to avoid this or that rotation b/c of this or that preceptor).

1) I rather have a speeding ticket than a HIPAA voliation. The OP voliated HIPAA..that's worst than a speeding ticket. I never had either thank god. LOL

2) Your example is off topic. I was talking about the OP's case ONLY. This is basically what happened. Preceptor told student "Please DO NOT print from this computer. Please do NOT voliate patient privacy." Student didn't listen first time. Preceptor warn her first time. Student printed AGAIN and voliated HIPAA again...preceptor wanted to dismiss the student. I think that was completely fair.

3) Let's pretend you are 100% right. LOL...Even if you were 100% right in that a student is equal to a preceptor and a preceptor has NO right at all in telling the student to do anything. The student has the power to do whatever he wants on a rotation and the preceptor must accept anything from a student. Fair enough. Even if that was 100% right....you must remember that you will only be on rotations for ONE YEAR.

You will have the boss-employee relationship for the REST OF YOUR LIFE (unless your daddy is Bill Gates or you will the Lottery) you will need to follow the rules for the rest of your life. So I don't think it is "crazy" for you to get use to it now as a P4.

Even if you are right in that a pharmacy student should be allow to do whatever they wish on any rotation...well...that student better leave that behind them QUICK b/c once that student becomes an employee...things will be different.

You better enjoy your year of doing whatever you wish, whenever you wish as a P4.

You aren't completely wrong. If you are
1) are super wealthy
2) will NEVER have to work a day in your life again

Then I agree with you...do whatever you wish, whenever you wish. Forget the rules.

But if you aren't #1 and #2 then your points will not work out very well.

 

[doublehh03]

That's your opinion. My student evaluations (classroom and precepting) speak for themselves. I'm fair and consistent and make expectations clear up front. But I do have standards that I expect students to adhere to, and I do challenge them to expand beyond what they've learned in the classroom and adapt to new ways of learning and doing things. How unreasonable!

I also think that the students who work/have worked for me (for pay) at my company have had a good experience as well. And if not, they are well compensated for their trouble.

But thanks for all the assumptions. You're really good at making those!

That's from my experiences at UCSF, not my opinion. I've gone to music concerts (a rap concert and a Bruno Mars mind you), mountain climbing, birthday parties, drinking with my preceptors. They were indeed my colleagues/friends. And I've used what I learned from them into my own way when I precept students.

I guess we're from different neck of the woods.

PS - what you described isn't a boss-employee relationship. Can you evaluate your boss and dismiss them if they are unfair?

 

[doublehh03]

1) I rather have a speeding ticket than a HIPAA voliation. The OP voliated HIPAA..that's worst than a speeding ticket. I never had either thank god. LOL

2) Your example is off topic. I was talking about the OP's case ONLY. This is basically what happened. Preceptor told student "Please DO NOT print from this computer. Please do NOT voliate patient privacy." Student didn't listen first time. Preceptor warn her first time. Student printed AGAIN and voliated HIPAA again...preceptor wanted to dismiss the student. I think that was completely fair.

3) Let's pretend you are 100% right. LOL...Even if you were 100% right in that a student is equal to a preceptor and a preceptor has NO right at all in telling the student to do anything. The student has the power to do whatever he wants on a rotation and the preceptor must accept anything from a student. Fair enough. Even if that was 100% right....you must remember that you will only be on rotations for ONE YEAR.

You will have the boss-employee relationship for the REST OF YOUR LIFE (unless your daddy is Bill Gates or you will the Lottery) you will need to follow the rules for the rest of your life. So I don't think it is "crazy" for you to get use to it now as a P4.

Even if you are right in that a pharmacy student should be allow to do whatever they wish on any rotation...well...that student better leave that behind them QUICK b/c once that student becomes an employee...things will be different.

You better enjoy your year of doing whatever you wish, whenever you wish as a P4.

1) OP did not violate HIPPA.

2) You do not fail a student after a verbal warning. That's where it was unfair to me. You want to fail a student. Sit their ass down after the first warning, document in detail why the student why this act CAN fail if it happens again. You don't just YELL at a student and that's it. What is this? A dictatorship?

3) I never said a preceptor has no right in telling a student a particular "request/preference," (a lot of reading comprehension problems, maybe including myself ), but a preceptor has NO RIGHT in failing a student in this case. That's where the preceptor was wrong, and the student has the right to challenge her failing the rotation.

4) Student has the power to do whatever he/she wants. When did i ever say that? Or do people just make things up to prove their point?

5) Rotations at my school are 2 years.

6) Yes, you will have your boss/employee relationship for the rest of your life. Fortunately, pharmacy school isn't that place.

7) Students are allowed to do whatever they wish... please find a post where I stated that.

You aren't completely wrong. If you are
1) are super wealthy
2) will NEVER have to work a day in your life again

Then I agree with you...do whatever you wish, whenever you wish. Forget the rules.

But if you aren't #1 and #2 then your points will not work out very well.

Unfortunately, I'm not rich. I work in retail. And I do carry this mentality. I treat my other pharmacists as my colleagues (even my PIC) and as a result, we have a GREAT relationship. I also have an awesome relationship with my district supervisor. Why? B/c I treat her like my colleague. I follow company's policies/regulations, but will point out to my PIC/district supervisor what I think can work better, and which may increase our metrics/overall store profits, and vice versa. Fortunately, the people I have known and currently work with are fair people. They do not mind if I oppose their opinion and will listen, and vice versa. I do not mind at all when people point out my weaknesses and what I have to work on. This is what you call a healthy working relationship (for the real world, you should try it). Again, grow a backbone.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

That's from my experiences at UCSF, not my opinion. I've gone to music concerts (a rap concert and a Bruno Mars mind you), mountain climbing, birthday parties, drinking with my preceptors. They were indeed my colleagues/friends. And I've used what I learned from them into my own way when I precept students.

I guess we're from different neck of the woods.

Faculty aren't permitted to socialize that way with students at my institution. And yes, what you are talking about is your OPINION of how the preceptor/student relationship should be conducted. It's your opinion and it's shaped by your experiences. That doesn't make it factual. Sorry to break that to you.

PS - what you described isn't a boss-employee relationship. Can you evaluate your boss and dismiss them if they are unfair?

OK, I've been trying to be nice, but your reading comprehension (despite your criticism of MINE) is really lacking here. Or, you're being deliberately dense. I never said the preceptor/student relationship was EXACTLY like the employee/boss relationship. Sure, there are differences, and one of them is that employees don't always get to evaluate their bosses, although there are employee satisfaction surveys and similar instruments used in some workplaces.

And students cannot, as a matter of course, dismiss their preceptors. So you've seen one preceptor dismissed from precepting. N=1. Great. It doesn't mean that every student who doesn't like their preceptor can go to the school and have them dismissed. That's just silly.

I think I'm done with you. But by all means, please keep name-dropping USCF. It really strengthens your argument.

 

[SHC1984]

2) You do not fail a student after a verbal warning. That's where it was unfair to me. You want to fail a student. Sit their ass down after the first warning, document in detail why the student why this act CAN fail if it happens again. You don't just YELL at a student and that's it. What is this? A dictatorship?

.

I can agree with this.

The preceptor should have told the student "do not print from this computer"

if the student broke the request first time, the preceptor should have documented that problem IN WRITING and warn the student that the act CAN fail you if it happens again...and if the student broke it again...then the preceptor could fail the student.

I believe in #1 warning of failure and documentation of problem in writing and #2 failing the student if it happens again.

I agree the preceptor should not have yelled at the student. I don't ever recommend yelling no matter what.

I also recommend documenting problems on paper and giving warnings first before failing.

I think we agree now. LOL

 

[Lubeckd]

I think you guys are missing the point here. What is preach in school isn't practiced in real life. You want to treat the patient as a equal, your co workers as a equal so they look up to you.
In theory it sounds good, but sometimes it doesn't get applied. Different people react differently, I have people in my hospital pharmacy and retail pharmacy treat me as a equal but I know if I go to other setting it will be different... In fact I don't get why my p6 wants to walk together with me side by side instead of leading me.
Even in the hospital you want the patient to have some power over their medication and hospitals are always having meetings about this power ego thing.

 

[doublehh03]

Faculty aren't permitted to socialize that way with students at my institution. And yes, what you are talking about is your OPINION of how the preceptor/student relationship should be conducted. It's your opinion and it's shaped by your experiences. That doesn't make it factual. Sorry to break that to you.
.

Well damn, now I know where your opinion stems from .

And it's funny, how you think my view of the preceptor/relationship is an opinion? Your view of it is also an opinion. Different opinions? Fine. I have no problems with that. Don't throw a hissy fit.

 

[doublehh03]

OK, I've been trying to be nice, but your reading comprehension (despite your criticism of MINE) is really lacking here. Or, you're being deliberately dense. I never said the preceptor/student relationship was EXACTLY like the employee/boss relationship. Sure, there are differences, and one of them is that employees don't always get to evaluate their bosses, although there are employee satisfaction surveys and similar instruments used in some workplaces.

And students cannot, as a matter of course, dismiss their preceptors. So you've seen one preceptor dismissed from precepting. N=1. Great. It doesn't mean that every student who doesn't like their preceptor can go to the school and have them dismissed. That's just silly.

I think I'm done with you. But by all means, please keep name-dropping USCF. It really strengthens your argument.

You think your bosses or large corporations ever care for what you say in your satisfaction surveys? But even I think you agree, a school takes their student surveys extremely seriously.

That number 1 is my personal experience. And yes, students evals CAN go into dismissing preceptors. A single student can't b/c you can simply chalk that up to a bad experience. but if the same student evals keep popping up, yes you can. I think I stated that before (maybe now it's my poor writing, I've been known for that)

I'm not name dropping, unless you think going to UCSF matters. I don't.

 

[SHC1984]

And yes, students evals CAN go into dismissing preceptors.

Preceptors can be dismissed but only if they do CRAZY things like:

1) touching the student
2) sexual harrassment
3) racial comments
4) hitting the student
5) telling the student to do things that are NOT related to pharmacy at all.

Preceptors will really have to do things that are completely OFF THE TOP in order to get dismissed, but sure it can happen.

 

[doublehh03]

I can agree with this.

The preceptor should have told the student "do not print from this computer"

if the student broke the request first time, the preceptor should have documented that problem IN WRITING and warn the student that the act CAN fail you if it happens again...and if the student broke it again...then the preceptor could fail the student.

I believe in #1 warning of failure and documentation of problem in writing and #2 failing the student if it happens again.

I agree the preceptor should not have yelled at the student. I don't ever recommend yelling no matter what.

I also recommend documenting problems on paper and giving warnings first before failing.

I think we agree now. LOL

That's what I have said all along . It took 6 pages but maybe my point is getting through Where is this doing whatever you want or as you please come from?

All I advise the OP to do is challenge the preceptor (yes, I used the word scoff--it's the internet ) b/c the preceptor was completely out of line for failing the OP. You cannot fail the student after "yelling" at a student one time. That's ridiculous, and that preceptor should be re-evaluated by the school.

 

[doublehh03]

Preceptors can be dismissed but only if they do CRAZY things like:

1) touching the student
2) sexual harrassment
3) racial comments
4) hitting the student
5) telling the student to do things that are NOT related to pharmacy at all.

Preceptors will really have to do things that are completely OFF THE TOP in order to get dismissed, but sure it can happen.

. What is the pool of pharmacists your school get its preceptors from?

And i'm done with this post. Time to go back to hibernation. SDN isn't real world lol.

 

[SHC1984]

That's what I have said all along . It took 6 pages but maybe my point is getting through Where is this doing whatever you want or as you please come from?

All I advise the OP to do is challenge the preceptor (yes, I used the word scoff--it's the internet ) b/c the preceptor was completely out of line for failing the OP. You cannot fail the student after "yelling" at a student one time. That's ridiculous, and that preceptor should be re-evaluated by the school.

No failing after ONE warning. Agreed.

With the SOAP note case. It's the same thing....the preceptor have the right to tell the student exactly how to do the SOAP. If the student don't know how to do it that way he or she must learn it.

The preceptor should warn the student if they do it wrong first time and document the problem in writing.

If the student does it AGAIN...then again, I think the preceptor has the right to fail the student in that case too. Provided a warning and written documentations were provided already.

I disagree in that a student has the right to choose how they want to do their SOAP.

Of course if you are a nice preceptor you will be willing to hear the student out on it....but the preceptor still gets to decide on exactly how the student presents a SOAP or project at the end and the student must follow the request...if not then after a warning he or she should fail.

 

[SHC1984]

. What is the pool of pharmacists your school get its preceptors from?

And i'm done with this post. Time to go back to hibernation. SDN isn't real world lol.

We haven't had any preceptors dismissed except for one b/c he commented on the size of the student's pants and how it makes her ass look...that student was removed from that site after that case.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I disagree in that a student has the right to choose how they want to do their SOAP.

Of course if you are a nice preceptor you will be willing to hear the student out on it....but the preceptor still gets to decide on exactly how the student presents a SOAP or project at the end and the student must follow the request...if not then after a warning he or she should fail.

The good thing is most students aren't stupid, and after being told "Please document your patient notes this way" or "please don't print PHI" or "please do the kinetics calculations this way," they actually try to comply. Instead of just ignoring the instructions and doing it their way, and then crying when they get in trouble.

 

[Its Z]

Done with this thread and the idiots it has attracted.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

You will have the boss-employee relationship for the REST OF YOUR LIFE (unless your daddy is Bill Gates or you will the Lottery) you will need to follow the rules for the rest of your life. So I don't think it is "crazy" for you to get use to it now as a P4.

That's the thing. It is actually VERY crazy. These people aren't your boss. You are paying to be there...and yet you are subservient to those that you are paying. Unless you are really into the S&M escort scene, this is a pretty bad deal.

My boss is paying me (handsomely) to do the stupid **** I do. I'm fine with that. Therein lies the difference.

 

[spacecowgirl]

That's the thing. It is actually VERY crazy. These people aren't your boss. You are paying to be there...and yet you are subservient to those that you are paying. Unless you are really into the S&M escort scene, this is a pretty bad deal.

My boss is paying me (handsomely) to do the stupid **** I do. I'm fine with that. Therein lies the difference.

You're paying the school, not your preceptor. If you have issues with that, take it up with the school.

seriously people. The entitlement from a few posters in this thread is amazing. I treat my students fairly, give them good projects, not busy work, rarely if ever have them do anything I don't think contributes to their experience but they are NOT my colleagues. I don't have to evaluate my colleagues, I do evaluate my students.

The perception of the preceptor/student roles is really skewed in here.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

You're paying the school, not your preceptor. If you have issues with that, take it up with the school.

seriously people. The entitlement from a few posters in this thread is amazing. I treat my students fairly, give them good projects, not busy work, rarely if ever have them do anything I don't think contributes to their experience but they are NOT my colleagues. I don't have to evaluate my colleagues, I do evaluate my students.

The perception of the preceptor/student roles is really skewed in here.

Totally agree!

Plus the fact that "students are paying" is completely irrelevant. Students pay tuition for their classes too, but don't get to dictate what is taught, what time class starts, when the exams are, or what grade they get. If they don't like it, they can choose another school, or choose not to go to school. But paying tuition does not give students any right to set the terms of the education they receive.

 

[rxlea]

You're paying the school, not your preceptor. If you have issues with that, take it up with the school.

seriously people. The entitlement from a few posters in this thread is amazing. I treat my students fairly, give them good projects, not busy work, rarely if ever have them do anything I don't think contributes to their experience but they are NOT my colleagues. I don't have to evaluate my colleagues, I do evaluate my students.

The perception of the preceptor/student roles is really skewed in here.

Something I have noticed as a PhD student is that the relationship between professor and student is much different than in the PharmD program. Maybe it's limited to my program but the PhD students see professors as more of a mentor and colleague. We spend a lot of time together with our professors and call them by their first name most of the time, unless we are in front of undergraduates or PharmD students.

The relationship is very different in that we really get to know them on a more personal level, will go out to events, go to dinner, among other things.

They do grade us but the teaching is focused on mastery learning and consists of small group discussion; we not only learn from the experience of the professor but from the other students, especially since we each have our interest areas and different levels of expertise in various things. It's definitely something that drew me to the program. Furthermore, the professors are really receptive to our feedback. Not that professors aren't receptive to feedback in the PharmD program but it's just...different.

We enjoy the company of the professors and they seem to really enjoy the company of the grad students even outside of the classroom.

In the PharmD program on my IPPE rotations, I did befriend 2 of my preceptors and we have spent time together outside of the IPPE. Being upstairs with a workspace has also allowed me to interact with other PharmD faculty and we periodically go to lunch or morning coffee together. I realize this is a sample size of n=1. Maybe it's my age or something.

 

[Lubeckd]

I dont think anyone is wrong here. Some people view their students are colleagues are others dont. Your way of practicing pharmacy is different, it's why different schools are different. Some focus more on informatics, other focus on interventions. You all bring different ideas to the profession. It's why hospitals dont just hire just one grad from certain alumni, they dont want students to have a certain set of guidelines in treating patients. You guys all bring diversity to the table, and that's why you guys are valued.

Some people may be able to see what is wrong with the pharmacy and change it, while the alumni who stay in that hospital pharmacy doesnt see anything wrong with it. Its not black and white as all my professors would say, in fact my preceptor told me not to consult on certain things because time is running out, but I would still use prime questions and give the patient my time.

On my communication class I would be graded a A. In the hospital... not so much. What doublehh03's school is doing, is taking a more empathy approach to their patient and students. If a pharmacy student has a good role model, they are most likely have more empathy toward the patients as they found through research. You guys as practitioners practice differently, but I think the caring for patient is the most important right? That's there is a push for a shift in treating those the way you want to be treated (As least curriculum wise) I think both are important, knowing when there is a boss-worker relationship to challenge them, and when there is a colleague relationship to improve the relationship. Both will help the pharmacy atmosphere and productive. Of course Im being too optimist, and a retail owner probably wont, but a good retail boss would know his workers hearts and utilize it.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I dont think anyone is wrong here. Some people view their students are colleagues are others dont. Your way of practicing pharmacy is different, it's why different schools are different. Some focus more on informatics, other focus on interventions. You all bring different ideas to the profession. Its not black and white as all my professors would say, in fact my preceptor told me not to consult on certain things because time is running out, but I would still use prime questions and give the patient my time.

On my communication class I would be graded a A. In the hospital... not so much. What doublehh03's school is doing, is doing a more empathy approach to their patient and students. If a pharmacy student has a good role model, they are most likely have more empathy toward the patients as they found through research. You as guys as practitioners practice differently, but I think the caring for patient is the most important right? That's there is a push for a shift in treating those the way you want to be treated (As least curriculum wise) I think both are important, knowing when there is a boss-worker relationship to challenge them, and when there is a colleague relationship to improve relationship. Both will help the pharmacy atmosphere and productive. Of course Im being too optimist, and a retail owner probably wont, but a good retail boss would know his workers hearts and utilize it.

I gotta be honest. I can't decipher most of this and don't know what you're talking about. But I do want to address the bolded point. Drinking and socializing with students (as doublehh03 described) has nothing to do with being a good role model and teaching students empathy for patients. Nothing. You can accomplish those things while still maintaining a professional relationship.

 

[Lubeckd]

I gotta be honest. I can't decipher most of this and don't know what you're talking about. But I do want to address the bolded point. Drinking and socializing with students (as doublehh03 described) has nothing to do with being a good role model and teaching students empathy for patients. Nothing. You can accomplish those things while still maintaining a professional relationship.

I actually edited it further. But my main point is that certain schools follow a certain guideline, while others follow a different guideline.

Edit: I realized you probably dont know what Im talking about when Im referring to guidelines.
When I was in hospital rounding with the Doctors, the attending told me they like to hire Doctors from different schools, because school A would be taught to treat the patient with the a,b,c,d approach.

While other schools treat the patient with another approach, both are right, but it gives the other Doctors a different insight in what is happening. And this ultimately bridges the weakness of one school. It will be very boring to see NYU medical school treat patient x with the a,b,c,d approach, while others medical schools can also bring more ideas to the table.

Im not going to say anything more, but there has to be a balance between the two relationships described above.

Also Im not here to say Im right or wrong. You guys practiced far longer than me, but I think to a extent you guys are both right, just dont take extremes...

 

[doublehh03]

One last point and I'll let this thread go where it may. My school is a very small community. Most of us don't even consider it school. The primary goal of the school is to develop good clinicians and leaders as a whole, not just a particular type of pharmacist. Like I said, this was the most fun I had in school (supposed to be the hardest??? ) ever. Well, maybe not P-chem When we are in the classroom, if we have any concerns with how the course is taught, we can bring that up to the professors. Before rotations start, they would ask us what they would like to see or changes to be made in rotations (based on reading past students' experiences). During rotations, preceptors would always ask me (I can't speak for others) what I would like to see to help me learn more. As a whole, the student body was a very important part of shaping the school and the experience. The student president was very involved on what's going on with the pharmacy school. From what I have seen, the faculty/preceptors understand the school is a place for me to learn. They challenged us beyond what we learned in the classroom or previous rotations.They did an awesome job at creating that type of atmosphere that generated my freedom to learn.

So yes, I did consider most of them my colleagues and friends, esp. my preceptors b/c I worked with them 1-on-1. They treated me as one, and I totally respected them for that. This type of relationship allowed me to be very open with them. I never hesitated asking them for any questions/advice, pharmacy or life in general and dumb or not. Ultimately, I never considered my rotations as "work," as many do. And I have brought this mentality over to being a retail pharmacist. I have gone to happy hour with my district supervisor once. I've watched football games with my PIC and technicians many times. It's awesome having very open and healthy relationships with the people you work with, or people in general.

Like I said, I went to a Bruno Mars and rap concert with one preceptor. I went to happy hour with several others. I played IM basketball with another AND my neurosurgery medical resident (and it got rough, trust me haha). I celebrated the birthday with other students with another preceptor. And so on. Like I said, the school was like a small community/family (for me anyways).

 

[Lazybug]

As far as Double's example about cleaning bathrooms: it's actually not far fetched since I had a "preceptor" at target ask me to do that and take out the trash and clean underneath it. (not just me but another girl that was there too), which undoubtedly did not happen. I find it amusing that certain people are criticizing comprehension abilities for certain other that have graduated from UCSF. I also find it amusing that people would spend days going through posts to find out who I might (or not be). This is why I deserted this post. Do I care enough to clue you in on what transpired during the past couple days? Umm from some of the posters I've encountered in this thread, why the heck would I bother?

 

[Momus]

As far as Double's example about cleaning bathrooms: it's actually not far fetched since I had a "preceptor" at target ask me to do that and take out the trash and clean underneath it. (not just me but another girl that was there too), which undoubtedly did not happen. I find it amusing that certain people are criticizing comprehension abilities for certain other that have graduated from UCSF. I also find it amusing that people would spend days going through posts to find out who I might (or not be). This is why I deserted this post. Do I care enough to clue you in on what transpired during the past couple days? Umm from some of the posters I've encountered in this thread, why the heck would I bother?

"Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in!" Guess where it was from?

You hate it so much, why are you still here?

 

[rph3664]

Preceptors can be dismissed but only if they do CRAZY things like:

1) touching the student
2) sexual harrassment
3) racial comments
4) hitting the student
5) telling the student to do things that are NOT related to pharmacy at all.

Preceptors will really have to do things that are completely OFF THE TOP in order to get dismissed, but sure it can happen.

The year before I did rotations, a FEMALE preceptor got in really big trouble for telling a student who was pregnant and due during that rotation that if she took more than 3 days off when she had the baby, she would automatically fail even if she turned in all her assignments. The student said, "If I have a c-section, I'll still be in the hospital" and the preceptor replied, "You should have thought about that before you got pregnant." This student went to the dean, and the dean told the preceptor that if this woman did her work, she would have to be passed. And that student ended up not having a c-section, either.

The year after I graduated, this preceptor was denied tenure. Gee, I wonder why. Not long after that, she got pregnant herself, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one whose initial reaction was, "I hope she's sick as a dog the whole nine months. No, really, I wouldn't wish that on anybody." Even beforehand, she was not well liked or respected by other students or faculty, and I really think that the only reason she was kept on was because her husband worked there too, and he WAS well respected and still is. IIRC, she was a SAHM, at least for a little while.

I had a preceptor who had to get talked to for "pimping" me (i.e. asking me questions so far beyond the scope of my knowledge, I didn't even know I was supposed to look up the answers and then insulting me when I didn't know - trust me, if this happens to you, you will know what I'm talking about) and also refused to tell me what was expected of me and then censured me for not getting the work done that I didn't know I was supposed to do in the first place. Lots of gaslighting. IDK if she did this to other people, but that I had signed on to work at a mail order place didn't help my case any.