Unfriendly residency/hospital environment?

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Ummm...I had 8 places on my ROL, I applied later in the season to Psychiatry since I changed my mind from sticking with FM. So in that sense yes, there was a chance of not matching based on my late decision. But I think its fairly typical to get one of your top 5 in Psych.

The people who were praising the program on interview day, are now putting it down and being vocal about the dirty laundry. That's what is upsetting. The biggest asset I have seen so far is the amazing chief and a stand up guy. But the PD definitely has a lot of ego issues considering the way he has behaved since I have come.

For instance, my COMLEX scores were above average, I didn't take USMLE....but now he goes on to tell me, that typically, we don't take people who have completed USMLE and especially Step 3. He warned me that if I don't take Step 3 before the end of the year, the hospital can't renew my contract.

In my head I'm thinking, you knew everything about my board scores ahead of time, I couldn't even register for step 3 until June.

Also, I don't need the legally blonde reference, I think a hospital should have some standard of hygiene and decency when interacting with residents. There should not be fecal waste on the sheets of call rooms, the nurses don't have to yell at the social workers in front of everyone etc.

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Ummm...I had 8 places on my ROL, I applied later in the season to Psychiatry since I changed my mind from sticking with FM. So in that sense yes, there was a chance of not matching based on my late decision. But I think its fairly typical to get one of your top 5 in Psych.

The people who were praising the program on interview day, are now putting it down and being vocal about the dirty laundry. That's what is upsetting. The biggest asset I have seen so far is the amazing chief and a stand up guy. But the PD definitely has a lot of ego issues considering the way he has behaved since I have come.

For instance, my COMLEX scores were above average, I didn't take USMLE....but now he goes on to tell me, that typically, we don't take people who have completed USMLE and especially Step 3. He warned me that if I don't take Step 3 before the end of the year, the hospital can't renew my contract.

In my head I'm thinking, you knew everything about my board scores ahead of time, I couldn't even register for step 3 until June.

Also, I don't need the legally blonde reference, I think a hospital should have some standard of hygiene and decency when interacting with residents. There should not be fecal waste on the sheets of call rooms, the nurses don't have to yell at the social workers in front of everyone etc.
It's pretty standard among many programs to require Step 3 to be done before the completion of intern year.

Also, your program has minimal control over the people who clean your call rooms. You can complain to them, but really that's an issue you should just mention to your hospitals environmental services.
 
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Step 3 is required before completion of your intern year, but COMLEX should be perfectly fine

He can't require you to do USMLE if you are a DO. That's DO discrimination. I did COMLEX for all three steps. Had no intentions of taking the USMLE, no thank you
 
I don't know - in looking at your previous posts you seem to categorize lots of people as 'millenials' but are you sure that that's the reason for why they say what they say?


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search/13252351/?q=mille*&t=post&o=relevance&c[user][0]=486825

I know it's easy to knee-jerk and blame things on perceived stereotypical generational differences, but it doesn't really add much to discussion.
Wow is that a a troll account? How is it even possible to turn every single conversation into a glib reply about Millenials?
 
Wow is that a a troll account? How is it even possible to turn every single conversation into a glib reply about Millenials?

I take pride in my skill.
 
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To the person who started this thread, and many others:

I would like to validate a lot of the feelings I've seen here.

To the poster, I'm not going to accuse you of being spoiled, or insult you.

The practice of medicine is enormously stressful for all involved, doctors and patients. It's hard for patients to suffer, and it's stressful to try to help people who are hurting. I always say medicine is the business of human suffering, and by business I mean that it's the name of the game. Dealing with suffering is what doctors and patients do, period. You are a professional deal-with-the-human-condition-which-by-its-very-nature-includes-unavoidable-suffering-in-the-form-of-pain-illness-aging-death-physical/mental limitations-abuse-addictions-sadness-or-the-expenditure-of-effort-in-minimizing-some-of-the-above-mentioned-things-er. There's a lot of good to be done getting your hands dirty getting in the trenches treating misery, so I don't mean to say that dealing with human misery is intrinsically miserable, but it is stressful by its very nature.

That being said, part of what adds to the misery (some of which is all in a day's work, and unavoidable, like a patient with pain from bony mets), is that medicine is a business. But that too is unavoidable according to the economists, as they say "there is no such thing as a free lunch," so there is a business aspect to medicine. Wants are unlimited, but resources aren't. Sucks.

In any case, just because there are "perfectly good and unavoidable reasons" for all the **** going down, I want to say:
It is frustrating to feel like you are trying to do your job and do the right thing and to feel like you are being faulted or shamed because some papers were late. Sure, maybe you could have "been more proactive" and "that's just the way it is" but I think it's understandably frustrating, and by the same token, while it may have been frustrating for the office to get the papers late, maybe that doesn't have to be expressed in a hurtful or rude way. It's frustrating when people are late, even when they have good reasons or it's unavoidable. It's frustrating for everyone when patients or the hospital doesn't have resources to decrease the frustration and suffering. I've been rude to nurses and they've been rude to me. The problems at a hospital seem to outmatch the solutions, and one of the resources are people, and people have ends to their ropes.

As far as coping with where you are, I don't have any good answers, all I can do is validate your feelings that if you and/or the other residents think it is a hostile, malignant place that could be doing a better job to be a more loving, gentler place of training future healers, than I think you are probably right. I might counter that people are likely doing the best they can, and this is true at the same time that it is true that they could be doing a better job.

There's a middle ground to this, which isn't telling you suck it up whimp it's all in your head, which is how I might paraphrase some of the responses I read here.

However, there are real-world and potentially very nasty consequences to leaving this residency without completing it. Now we're circling back to the business of medicine concept.

None of this is the way I think things should be, but my advice for coping:
1) Do everything you can to be as pleasing as you can to every single person around you, especially anyone that has any power over you
2) Never express any unhappiness, except maybe to validate an expression of unhappiness from a colleague, because no one ever likes their negative feelings being invalidated, so only violate rule number 2 so as not to violate rule number 1, ie no one likes to say to someone "wow that was so hard" only to have you say "it's not so bad" because while part of rule number 1) is to wear a smiley face at all times, don't do it to the point of pissing people off
3) Your job is to be "efficient" meaning do whatever it takes to make everyone else's job easier even if it almost kills you, as long as it doesn't kill a patient (because ultimately that doesn't make anyone's job easier, usually), and while we're talking about it being efficient is figuring out how to do the bare minimum in the shortest amount of time possible, understanding that the most good you can do is what you can do "efficiently" while still looking good. "Treat 'em and street 'em" and "a good note is a done note." Learn to cut the right corners. Learn to do all of these things while looking as good as possible. Here in rule number 3, understand that while I am being candid, looking good IS cutting the right corners but never admitting as much. Understand that "efficient" care as I've described it is "the best care," when it's really "the best care you can give given ridiculous circumstances." You are given spaghetti noodles to make the Emperor his new robe, and by God, he is not naked in it, and not only that, it looks good on him.

Now, many people will jump in and say that my 3 rules are bull****, that "I don't cut corners, I'm efficient, I'm just really good at doing everything perfectly and honestly and delivering excellent patient care and getting along with everyone while being respectfully assertive and handling conflicts constructively is key and blah blah blah" and saying all the right things about themselves while putting you down, but remember that denying the 3 rules and saying the right things is part of looking good. Putting you down is part of the denial, and putting others down and denial is sadly one of the most common coping mechanisms in medicine for everything I've described. It's common because it's effective at making people feel better about living by the 3 sad rules above.

Godspeed.
 
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Yeah, sounds like you decided not to pursue your previous tack. Smart move.

Trying vague? Whatever makes you feel better, I was pretty specific.
 
To the person who started this thread, and many others:

I would like to validate a lot of the feelings I've seen here.

To the poster, I'm not going to accuse you of being spoiled, or insult you.

The practice of medicine is enormously stressful for all involved, doctors and patients. It's hard for patients to suffer, and it's stressful to try to help people who are hurting. I always say medicine is the business of human suffering, and by business I mean that it's the name of the game. Dealing with suffering is what doctors and patients do, period. You are a professional deal-with-the-human-condition-which-by-its-very-nature-includes-unavoidable-suffering-in-the-form-of-pain-illness-aging-death-physical/mental limitations-abuse-addictions-sadness-or-the-expenditure-of-effort-in-minimizing-some-of-the-above-mentioned-things-er. There's a lot of good to be done getting your hands dirty getting in the trenches treating misery, so I don't mean to say that dealing with human misery is intrinsically miserable, but it is stressful by its very nature.

That being said, part of what adds to the misery (some of which is all in a day's work, and unavoidable, like a patient with pain from bony mets), is that medicine is a business. But that too is unavoidable according to the economists, as they say "there is no such thing as a free lunch," so there is a business aspect to medicine. Wants are unlimited, but resources aren't. Sucks.

In any case, just because there are "perfectly good and unavoidable reasons" for all the **** going down, I want to say:
It is frustrating to feel like you are trying to do your job and do the right thing and to feel like you are being faulted or shamed because some papers were late. Sure, maybe you could have "been more proactive" and "that's just the way it is" but I think it's understandably frustrating, and by the same token, while it may have been frustrating for the office to get the papers late, maybe that doesn't have to be expressed in a hurtful or rude way. It's frustrating when people are late, even when they have good reasons or it's unavoidable. It's frustrating for everyone when patients or the hospital doesn't have resources to decrease the frustration and suffering. I've been rude to nurses and they've been rude to me. The problems at a hospital seem to outmatch the solutions, and one of the resources are people, and people have ends to their ropes.

As far as coping with where you are, I don't have any good answers, all I can do is validate your feelings that if you and/or the other residents think it is a hostile, malignant place that could be doing a better job to be a more loving, gentler place of training future healers, than I think you are probably right. I might counter that people are likely doing the best they can, and this is true at the same time that it is true that they could be doing a better job.

There's a middle ground to this, which isn't telling you suck it up whimp it's all in your head, which is how I might paraphrase some of the responses I read here.

However, there are real-world and potentially very nasty consequences to leaving this residency without completing it. Now we're circling back to the business of medicine concept.

None of this is the way I think things should be, but my advice for coping:
1) Do everything you can to be as pleasing as you can to every single person around you, especially anyone that has any power over you
2) Never express any unhappiness, except maybe to validate an expression of unhappiness from a colleague, because no one ever likes their negative feelings being invalidated, so only violate rule number 2 so as not to violate rule number 1, ie no one likes to say to someone "wow that was so hard" only to have you say "it's not so bad" because while part of rule number 1) is to wear a smiley face at all times, don't do it to the point of pissing people off
3) Your job is to be "efficient" meaning do whatever it takes to make everyone else's job easier even if it almost kills you, as long as it doesn't kill a patient (because ultimately that doesn't make anyone's job easier, usually), and while we're talking about it being efficient is figuring out how to do the bare minimum in the shortest amount of time possible, understanding that the most good you can do is what you can do "efficiently" while still looking good. "Treat 'em and street 'em" and "a good note is a done note." Learn to cut the right corners. Learn to do all of these things while looking as good as possible. Here in rule number 3, understand that while I am being candid, looking good IS cutting the right corners but never admitting as much. Understand that "efficient" care as I've described it is "the best care," when it's really "the best care you can give given ridiculous circumstances." You are given spaghetti noodles to make the Emperor his new robe, and by God, he is not naked in it, and not only that, it looks good on him.

Now, many people will jump in and say that my 3 rules are bull****, that "I don't cut corners, I'm efficient, I'm just really good at doing everything perfectly and honestly and delivering excellent patient care and getting along with everyone while being respectfully assertive and handling conflicts constructively is key and blah blah blah" and saying all the right things about themselves while putting you down, but remember that denying the 3 rules and saying the right things is part of looking good. Putting you down is part of the denial, and putting others down and denial is sadly one of the most common coping mechanisms in medicine for everything I've described. It's common because it's effective at making people feel better about living by the 3 sad rules above.

Godspeed.

Your advice is practical. Things happen for a reason. I cannot envy my classmates from med school who ended up in cushy Psychiatric residencies where there was some modicum of organization.

I need to be more proactive about my needs. If the bathroom for physicians and nurses does not have soap, I need to go and carry around a container myself.
I'm a bit shocked that some sanitary regulations can't be in place for a place that serves 300K people. But I guess I need to be more proactive.

Quitting this residency and shutting down my career is not an option. The good part is, I like my job to a certain degree, I am not efficient at it, but I'm decent.
 
I thought about it but I think I would only be able to find an AOAspot. No one will take me if I have a past history of bailing

Stick it out a year and see if there is a way to transfer (open program closer to home, elsewhere in general, etc). In this way, you're motivated to stick around and truly get a feel for the program.You may change you mind and continue on, or you may still wish to transfer and just get it done. Be in good graces with the program for the year either way.
 
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Stick it out a year and see if there is a way to transfer (open program closer to home, elsewhere in general, etc). In this way, you're motivated to stick around and truly get a feel for the program.You may change you mind and continue on, or you may still wish to transfer and just get it done. Be in good graces with the program for the year either way.

I know. I know. It's tough, but I'm trying to do my best to keep my mouth shut. It feels truly awful to be looking like the black sheep and having everyone roll their eyes at me. Even the janitor doesn't trust me.
 
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I know. I know. It's tough, but I'm trying to do my best to keep my mouth shut. It feels truly awful to be looking like the black sheep and having everyone roll their eyes at me. Even the janitor doesn't trust me.
When you are attending you will be more equipped to battle that behavior...make sure you get to attending
 
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I know. I know. It's tough, but I'm trying to do my best to keep my mouth shut. It feels truly awful to be looking like the black sheep and having everyone roll their eyes at me. Even the janitor doesn't trust me.

You don't have to open your mouth at this time and tell anyone you're considering a transfer (if you ever do). Gotta keep it on the DL. Plus, you wouldn't have to apply through the match for a PGY-2 spot. If it doesn't pan out, you always got the dump you've been in for the past year.
 
Lots of PGY2 psychiatry spots open up every year, so there is a good chance you would be able to find a program to transfer to if you had a good enough reason. Psych actually has the highest attrition rate of any residency (yes, even higher than surgery).

Note: None of the reasons you've listed in this thread count as "good" ones. Make up a geographical one if you have to.
 
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Lots of PGY2 psychiatry spots open up every year, so there is a good chance you would be able to find a program to transfer to if you had a good enough reason. Psych actually has the highest attrition rate of any residency (yes, even higher than surgery).

Note: None of the reasons you've listed in this thread count as "good" ones. Make up a geographical one if you have to.

This is true although I am unsure the quality of those said psych programs with frequent openings.
I seem to recall some openings in NY, Chicago a year or so ago.
 
This is true although I am unsure the quality of those said psych programs with frequent openings.
I'm not sure the OP really gets to call the shots with regards to "quality" of programs if s/he bails on this (sub-par from the reports) program to try to get another spot.
 
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I'm not sure the OP really gets to call the shots with regards to "quality" of programs if s/he bails on this (sub-par from the reports) program to try to get another spot.

True. My point was OP could end up potentially transferring from one devil to the next.
 
I understand. I don't want to give up on this. I know that tranfser's don't work out really well most of the time.

Regardless of how malignant it is, I am away from my relatives back home, but at least I have my BF with me, and we both want to make this work.

A residency spot is a residency spot, and I am committed on biting my tongue down for the next 3-4 years. Tranferring is just too risky.
 
Yeah, as long as no one ever attributes your SDN comments back to you (something to keep in mind) this is a good place to voice that-which-shall-not-be-said inside the hospital. Except for all the jerks and trolls here that like to insult people.
 
Yeah, I feel like I see this Doctor4Life1769 in these forums suggesting transferring all the time, or maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not criticizing that, just that I wonder if they have some reason (positive personal experience maybe?) that they suggest this. Ah, I see their location is "Where grass is always greener".

I would be curious if that were the case.

I don't have positive experiences with transferring, in fact, I don't have any.

But I do have experience that has led me to choose my current title as "Boot Licker." I love the taste of leather, I do.
 
Yeah, I feel like I see this Doctor4Life1769 in these forums suggesting transferring all the time, or maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not criticizing that, just that I wonder if they have some reason (positive personal experience maybe?) that they suggest this. Ah, I see their location is "Where grass is always greener".

I would be curious if that were the case.

I don't have positive experiences with transferring, in fact, I don't have any.

But I do have experience that has led me to choose my current title as "Boot Licker." I love the taste of leather, I do.

Kinky.

I don't always suggest transferring, but her situation sounds crappy when you look at her latest thread. Sometimes you just end up in a bad situation that constantly gets worse until they break you and then they fire you.

Sometimes, it really is just pure intern incompetence early on that improves and things change for the better, or you hang yourself with your own rope.

It's hard to tell. But, I have experience and it certainly was a positive one. Can't complain. Then again, I didn't transfer during or immediately after intern year.
 
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Kinky.

I don't always suggest transferring, but her situation sounds crappy when you look at her latest thread. Sometimes you just end up in a bad situation that constantly gets worse until they break you and then they fire you.

Sometimes, it really is just pure intern incompetence early on that improves and things change for the better, or you hang yourself with your own rope.

It's hard to tell. But, I have experience and it certainly was a positive one. Can't complain. Then again, I didn't transfer during or immediately after intern year.

Ah yes, rope, I know this situation of which you speak of with rope. Worst situation ever! Some people are into erotic asphyxiation. But in residency as in real life, Licking boots, ass kissing, and transferring are much safer.

If the writing is on the wall as far as suckitude of the residency, transferring is definitely better.

I just hope things can pan out for her at her program. Other people have made it through her residency hopefully, and I hope the OP can make it work no matter what happens, stay or go.
 
Ah yes, rope, I know this situation of which you speak of with rope. Worst situation ever! Some people are into erotic asphyxiation. But in residency as in real life, Licking boots, ass kissing, and transferring are much safer.

If the writing is on the wall as far as suckitude of the residency, transferring is definitely better.

I just hope things can pan out for her at her program. Other people have made it through her residency hopefully, and I hope the OP can make it work no matter what happens, stay or go.

It seems to me that others who were previously trained in psych in another country make up the majority of the residents in her program. That is a major disadvantage for her, both culturally and professionally with unrelatistic expectations as a brand new intern.
 
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I just don't know how/when to transfer. I don't know how I even got into this sucky situation. I will say this, the patients have definitely been interesting and sick. That is the best part of the program.

I constantly here the word "observership" what does this mean? is this like an audition?
 
usually from another country, and yeah, not really an audition since they can't do anything but they can try to network and hope to work there

sometimes a US doc that's been out of practice for a while and wants to get back in the game will do one

there's rare cases where someone is trained to attending status elsewhere and a period of observership will help them towards licensing here, I think
 
Honestly, reading your posts, I'm not seeing anything really convincing me this program is so bad that somewhere else will be better.

I wouldn't transfer over fecal matter on the sheets and b*tchy nurses. I don't mean to trivialize your problems, there's probably a bunch of stuff I don't know that's negative too.

I do feel like I hear better things about other programs from my friends in psych, but a factor for tolerating the stresses of a residency program is how much you like the specialty. If you hate psych no psych residency is likely to make you happy. Not saying that you hate psych, just, ya know.

I feel like (pulling number out of butt) that 99% of interns are almost ready to cry on any given day at work at any given program. People have jumped from ledges at otherwise nice programs.

Being in medicine sucks (although I love it, it's called masochism) and being in residency is one of the most stressful times ever, so it wouldn't be weird for you to hate it. But is it more than you can stand? Is it really worse at your program than elsewhere? A lot of what people hate about working in a hospital exists in almost every hospital. People feeling bitchy, not having enough resources for XYZ, crappy call rooms (not everywhere), crappy cafeteria food, program coordinators chewing you out, etc.

Just things to mull over.
 
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