Unmatched American MD looking for advice

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Horrible situation. If I was in your situation I would try to work as a "house physician" in NY or FL or "assistant physician" in MO, AR or apply to research fellowship.

I'd also consider going to a physician reentry/remediation program first.
 
CoffeeGourmand said:
Horrible situation. If I was in your situation I would try to work as a "house physician" in NY or FL or "assistant physician" in MO, AR or apply to research fellowship.

I'd also consider going to a physician reentry/remediation program first.
Click to expand...

Usually these remediation programs don't work. I was in this situation awhile back. You need to seek clinical work for anyone that will give it to you and then also pass Step 3. This is what I had to do to get myself out of this situation.
 
46Long said:
How about a medical assistant? Can you work as that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Not sure TBH. I know in FL you have to go to MA school. But there will be doctors who will employ you w/o an MA degree. However, not sure why IMG physicians would want to work as a MA making 20k+/yr when they can get a LPN/RN degree from one of the 100+ schools around the US in 1 yr. That will give them the opportunity to make 50k-80k/yr.
 
What pays more a medical assistant or a nursing assistant?
 
46Long said:
What pays more a medical assistant or a nursing assistant?
Click to expand...
A very quick google search says they are comparable. With salaries in the 12-15 dollar/hour range you could have a higher salary with either/or depending where you work.
 
46Long said:
can you work as a medical assistant or physician assistant if you are a physician?
Click to expand...

I know many FMGs that have or currently work as medical assistants, so I would assume it would be possible for an AMG. Most of these FMGs are working in the interim to entering residency however.
 
Kumorebi said:
A very quick google search says they are comparable. With salaries in the 12-15 dollar/hour range you could have a higher salary with either/or depending where you work.
Click to expand...
12-15 bucks/hour!!! My son was making that as a cook at a fast food restaurant!
 
Splenda88 said:
Not sure TBH. I know in FL you have to go to MA school. But there will be doctors who will employ you w/o an MA degree. However, not sure why IMG physicians would want to work as a MA making 20k+/yr when they can get a LPN/RN degree from one of the 100+ schools around the US in 1 yr. That will give them the opportunity to make 50k-80k/yr.
Click to expand...

People's life situations vary a lot. I think it's hard to know what's worth it, and its likely not a over size fits all kind of thing.

My cousin came here as a refugee and is an IMG with >10yrs since YOG. He was a refugee outside of his home country for 2 yrs where he was unable to work in medicine at all and did mainly mechanic/body shop work. He has a wife and 3 children, was in his late 40s when he came here, and basically had no chance of getting a residency. Later he took responsibility for his father and in laws, who he setup living in a duplex next to him.

He started working as an MA to get by, then began considering accelerated nursing or even PA school. The thing is getting documentation from his school for some if any credit, getting the $50k-$90k for an accelerated BSN, and not working during that time but somehow supporting his family honestly was just not an option for him.

I've tried to figure out how I or my family could help him, but the idea of being beholden to a family member for a >$100k loan is not something I think he would ever accept. I had even thought to loan him the money after residency, because quite frankly he is very smart, humble, and thoughtful and would be an amazing physician, nurse, NP, PA or anything with direct patient care. While I was in med school he was diagnosed with MS, so that made him even less willing to go into debt for what may be a short career and a risk of not having the insurance he has through his work.

He recently opened an auto shop and loves it, working as an MA some days a week for the steady income. He bought (mortgage) the duplex he and his family live in. It all seemed like the right decision for him and his family. It might not cause him the most financial success, but he's finally comfortable.

Goro said:
12-15 bucks/hour!!! My son was making that as a cook at a fast food restaurant!
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not great.
 
The usual suspects moralizing and trying to beat down a dead horse. OP is here for advice not for your judgment. I agree that we need the full story for advice, but the usual suspects are judging and not helping.

OP, the sad truth is that you have multiple red flags here. It sounds like you had some drug use that led to a special contract and then got dismissed based on use again. Unfortunately, it will only be seen this way and not in a nuanced way. With hundreds of applications, PDs will just think "drug user got fired for substance use." Then you have to tack on that you have been away from medicine for at least 4 years. The only upside is that you took step 3. You now have an unsuccessful match year after 74 applications and just 2 invites.

I hate to say this but you're back to square 1 as if medical school didn't happen. You have to accept this and just know that you can't really leverage that MD into a high paying job. Your options are a new degree like an MBA from a top 20 university because those lead to real jobs, or you can do Law School and go into a field where health and law intersect. Your other option is to return to the military and put in your 20 years for the retirement. Then your last option is another field all-together (that doesn't require licensing or just a weak license like Real Estate) and accept the salary dip for a few years. If I were you, I'd put military first and then another field second. More and more education is a trap.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. I believe you when you say you're not a drug addict with substance abuse problems, but you cannot change what's on paper. You'd have to be at least 10 years removed from an incident for people to take you seriously, but since you had your first issue then seven years later your second, you'll always be seen as a liability because they'd think you could relapse.

I wish I could offer you better help, but I think it's really time to just move on.
 
Splenda88 said:
You can apply for the AP (Assistant Physician) license in Missouri. I don't know how hard it is to get a job with such license.

Click to expand...
I don't know much about it except a guy I met in the residency interview trail that did it. From what I recall he said there were a lot of roadblocks and you got paid dirt. He said it would be better to be an NP or a PA than an AP within Missouri. He just did it because he was unmatched Carib and needed to fill his CV for the year.
 
jkdoctor said:
Here is a story of an unmatched doctor:
OPIOID ALTERNATIVE
Missouri is the 32nd state to legalize medical marijuana.

Before moving to Kansas City two years ago, Bubenik was a nurse and a doctor in Oregon, one of the first states to legalize marijuana for medical use and, later, recreational use. She said physicians in other states have become more comfortable with it.

Bubenik is part of Missouri’s assistant physician program, a first-of-its-kind law that allows medical school graduates who haven’t done residency to practice under the supervision of another physician.

She said that she intends to primarily use medical marijuana as an alternative to opioid painkillers, because the state heavily scrutinizes doctors who prescribe those drugs and because she’s uncomfortable with their high risks of addiction.

What is an Assistant Physician / Associate Physician?
An assistant physician (in some states called an associate physician) is a new breed of provider. These highly educated doctors were specifically made to tackle the tasks of primary care in medically under served areas and work with a collaborating physician. They have completed medical school, are nationally ECFMG/ACGME Certified, and are a great asset to any hospital, clinic, or urgent care facility.

Association of Medical Doctor Assistant Physicians

An Assistant Physician (In some states called an Associate Physician) is a new breed of provider. These highly educated Doctors were specifically made to tackle the tasks of Primary Care in Medically Undeserved Areas and work with a collaborating physician.
assistantphysicianassociation.com assistantphysicianassociation.com
Click to expand...

This is how I imagine that goes.

marimuana buyer,” What weed is best for my fibro?”
Assistant doctor “I like the Blue Tang Zinger MJ Express for that. Would you like chips with that?”

Personally, I’d rather start a lawn service company or go into real estate.
 
LovelyNutella said:
I know a US-DO who could not get into a residency. She did MHA, and now work as a residency coordinator for FM.
Click to expand...
That’s a terrible fallback. An MHA should be able to get you into hospital administration. Not policing residents and doing almost secretarial work. I hope it pays well.
 
NotAProgDirector said:
If you're asking about applying for the match again, then we need all the details of your story.

If you're asking what else you can do, unfortunately the answer isn't much. Without one year of GME you can't get a license. There is a thread on here somewhere of a poster who also couldn't get a residency, ended up working in their state insurance office and having a decent career.

forums.studentdoctor.net

Considering leaving medicine, please help?

Hi Everyone, I'm in a bit of a dilemma. I hope you can give me some advice. During my 3rd year of medical school, I realized that clinical medicine/mortality/morbidity caused me to develop incredible anxiety, panic disorder, and an arrhythmia 2/2 to the anxiety. Being on wards makes me...
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
Click to expand...
All this stems from Marijuana use as an M1? And you decided to tell a shrink voluntarily? Did the shrink then report you? Was there other use besides as an M1? No use at all while in the military?

As far as the wine thing, sounds like the PD tricked you and you fell for their trap. That sucks.

Edit: Read some more. And now I think I understand better.
 
Last edited:
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Good. People seem to forget that we can be friends with people we disagree with.
Click to expand...
I am very collegial with NPs I work with except one who thinks she is better (or knows more) than the residents. That particular NP thinks she is the sh***t, and most of the residents don't like her.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Good. People seem to forget that we can be friends with people we disagree with.
Click to expand...
Someone saying “I chose a different path because of ABC” is one thing.
Someone saying “I am better than you because of ABC “ is more than just a disagreement. Sounds narcissistic but most likely just an inferiority complex.

No need to put someone else’s accomplishments down to make yourself feel better in a friendship.

For me, I don’t do well in friendships where I am being put down. Been there done that. No Thank You. If I am not putting you down, don’t do it to me.

Guess it works for others.
 
NITRAS said:
This is how I imagine that goes.

marimuana buyer,” What weed is best for my fibro?”
Assistant doctor “I like the Blue Tang Zinger MJ Express for that. Would you like chips with that?”

Personally, I’d rather start a lawn service company or go into real estate.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and to add that I don't know how well an interview would go with "I was dismissed for substance use, so I worked at an MJ prescription mill for a year while waiting for the match"
 
Long thread.

If want residency. Better network. If you are still in touch with classmates who went to school with you, maybe hit them up. They’re now attendings for years, maybe they can help you out. Any professors in med school you think can help you. Go back to med school and ask for help. Go back to dean or deans who advised you. You can always “threaten” to expose them for poor advising. Probably not the good way to approach, but desperate times may call for desperate measures.

Go back to military and ask for help. Go to different people who are physicians or in healthcare to see if they would give you a chance. If you were discharged without any other blemishes, maybe some hospitals or PD will look that as something they can work with. A Vet who served his country still may mean something to the right people. Even if you were young and stupid.

Just ideas. But all these require you to really own it, NOT my ex-Pd hated me. Even if they really ask for details, just tell them it’s long ago, just need to move on. When you start to explain things, that lead to exactly what happened in the first 60 posts. Also all of these ideas, you need to show up without any chips on your shoulder. It’s hard to do, especially for physicians. Probably extra hard for someone who has a MD behind his name, and has been ordered by people who have much less education.

If you went down all the paths, without success. You can stay in healthcare. RN, PA are obvious choices. But like you said, how much of your past will follow you, no one can say. There are a few of our neurophysiological monitoring techs who are very very successful. Started their own company and helping with neurosurgeries. But requires more training, it still is better than MPH, if you want clinical work.

You can teach. One of my professors in med school is/was a surgeon before he joined the faculty. Don’t know his story, but have a feeling maybe related to drugs or professionalism. Community college for anatomy, physiology? But none of these options will make good money.

If you want to make money, as some of the post may have alluded to. Health care may not be it. Especially if you believe you deserve a physicians salary when you have the education to back it up. I would just move on. There are days I think my plumber make more than me. My real estate agent certainly can make more than me, if he makes the right sales.

You shouldn’t have much debts, so I think it’s really up to you. You’re in much better position than some of the Caribbean grads who have tons of student loans, and can’t seem to find another way to pay for their degree.

Good luck.
 
Is Law School or MBA even an Option? I don't think he can get any more federal Loans meaning he would have to pay out of pocket? Can anybody confirm?
 
Crap situation. It was really the Swiss cheese model of events to align to result in this cluster.

I feel for you...to an extent. You knew better to do weed while in the military...or at least you should have. You also should have known better to completely screw over your PD by not disclosing. It was horrible advice to not disclose that information. It may have helped you to match...but that is questionable. The Army residency situations aren’t very competitive. You would have almost certainly matched...and this time with your PD knowing what he/she was buying. Of course you were going to have a short leash. And you blew it...you drank when you shouldn’t have drank. Throw in “questions about professionalism”...and yeah...they were going to get rid of you.

The only thing I find sad is that the military put you in limbo. In hindsight...may have been a good idea to get a masters with your downtime. You have your GI Bill benefits. Use them.
 
j4pac said:
The only thing I find sad is that the military put you in limbo. In hindsight...may have been a good idea to get a masters with your downtime. You have your GI Bill benefits. Use them.
Click to expand...
The OP is long gone but for anyone that reads this... The OP likely does not have GI Bill benefits. He would have had to serve beyond his HPSP service obligation of 4 years to gain GI Bill benefits.
 
Helpful Troll said:
The OP is long gone but for anyone that reads this... The OP likely does not have GI Bill benefits. He would have had to serve beyond his HPSP service obligation of 4 years to gain GI Bill benefits.
Click to expand...

From what I understand they made him repay his commitment. If that was the case...he could have.

“Finally, I was ineligible for the NRMP match because I was stuck with the Army for 4 more years. I ended up doing administrative work in the hospital while they worked on involuntarily separating me for failing to maintain branch qualification. The medical board investigated me because I was terminated from a program, but ended up dismissing the case.”
 
Helpful Troll said:
The OP is long gone but for anyone that reads this... The OP likely does not have GI Bill benefits. He would have had to serve beyond his HPSP service obligation of 4 years to gain GI Bill benefits.
Click to expand...
Maybe. It's unclear based on the VA website which doesn't specify HPSP repayment as a disqualifier. If I were him I would at least apply for certificate of eligibility (COE) and let the VA make that decision. Getting GI Bill benefits could be very beneficial to OP for a less painful path forward to pursue an MHA or other usable degree.
 
xffan624 said:
Maybe. It's unclear based on the VA website which doesn't specify HPSP repayment as a disqualifier. If I were him I would at least apply for certificate of eligibility (COE) and let the VA make that decision. Getting GI Bill benefits could be very beneficial to OP for a less painful path forward to pursue an MHA or other usable degree.
Click to expand...

HPSP repayment absolutely is NOT a disqualifier. I only know because I used my GI Bill, and know many others who used GI Bill, after fulfilling their HPSP payback. Unless he was dishonorably discharged, he absolutely should get some sort of Post-911 GI Bill. All you need to qualify is to be active duty for 90-days. He said he was in at least 3 years...which should reward him full benefits. Essentially...he could get a masters...or even get at least 3/4 of a PhD covered. He’d be able to create a new career for himself.
 
I know that states will give you a special medical license if you work in a prison. Not a great job, but It's a living.
 
d2305 said:
I know that states will give you a special medical license if you work in a prison. Not a great job, but It's a living.
Click to expand...
I am not aware of any states that will give you special license w/o some sort of postgrad training. Only Missouri and Arkansas will give you an AP (Assistant Physician) license.
 
IMGASMD said:
Long thread.

If want residency. Better network. If you are still in touch with classmates who went to school with you, maybe hit them up. They’re now attendings for years, maybe they can help you out. Any professors in med school you think can help you. Go back to med school and ask for help. Go back to dean or deans who advised you. You can always “threaten” to expose them for poor advising. Probably not the good way to approach, but desperate times may call for desperate measures.

Go back to military and ask for help. Go to different people who are physicians or in healthcare to see if they would give you a chance. If you were discharged without any other blemishes, maybe some hospitals or PD will look that as something they can work with. A Vet who served his country still may mean something to the right people. Even if you were young and stupid.

Just ideas. But all these require you to really own it, NOT my ex-Pd hated me. Even if they really ask for details, just tell them it’s long ago, just need to move on. When you start to explain things, that lead to exactly what happened in the first 60 posts. Also all of these ideas, you need to show up without any chips on your shoulder. It’s hard to do, especially for physicians. Probably extra hard for someone who has a MD behind his name, and has been ordered by people who have much less education.

If you went down all the paths, without success. You can stay in healthcare. RN, PA are obvious choices. But like you said, how much of your past will follow you, no one can say. There are a few of our neurophysiological monitoring techs who are very very successful. Started their own company and helping with neurosurgeries. But requires more training, it still is better than MPH, if you want clinical work.

You can teach. One of my professors in med school is/was a surgeon before he joined the faculty. Don’t know his story, but have a feeling maybe related to drugs or professionalism. Community college for anatomy, physiology? But none of these options will make good money.

If you want to make money, as some of the post may have alluded to. Health care may not be it. Especially if you believe you deserve a physicians salary when you have the education to back it up. I would just move on. There are days I think my plumber make more than me. My real estate agent certainly can make more than me, if he makes the right sales.

You shouldn’t have much debts, so I think it’s really up to you. You’re in much better position than some of the Caribbean grads who have tons of student loans, and can’t seem to find another way to pay for their degree.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

some good points/suggestions. i've been out of the loop since i did residency late 80's early 90's thus not aware of current rules. what about finding the programs that don't fill in match or have trouble filling and contact them. offer to work as a sub-intern or intern or house officer even without salary to show them what you got. if you work hard, are reliable, efficient, trustworthy, competent and liked it is not unlikely they will give you a spot. if i may add some additional pearls of wisdom acquired during my pgy years before resident work hours limitations, political correctness, etc. kiss ass, shovel shxt with your tongue, happily agree with all seniors, never complain.
 
instantkarma said:
some good points/suggestions. i've been out of the loop since i did residency late 80's early 90's thus not aware of current rules. what about finding the programs that don't fill in match or have trouble filling and contact them. offer to work as a sub-intern or intern or house officer even without salary to show them what you got. if you work hard, are reliable, efficient, trustworthy, competent and liked it is not unlikely they will give you a spot. if i may add some additional pearls of wisdom acquired during my pgy years before resident work hours limitations, political correctness, etc. kiss ass, shovel shxt with your tongue, happily agree with all seniors, never complain.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that this is legal. This has been discussed on SDN before, and I believe that the consensus is that legitimate residency programs cannot have unpaid house staff. @NotAProgDirector might have more insight, though.
 
smq123 said:
I don't believe that this is legal. This has been discussed on SDN before, and I believe that the consensus is that legitimate residency programs cannot have unpaid house staff. @NotAProgDirector might have more insight, though.
Click to expand...
others would know better than me as to current rules. decades ago i was a house officer in a gen surgery program but they gave me room and board and 100 bucks a month.
 
smq123 said:
I don't believe that this is legal. This has been discussed on SDN before, and I believe that the consensus is that legitimate residency programs cannot have unpaid house staff. @NotAProgDirector might have more insight, though.
Click to expand...
Agree that it's probably illegal. 1.) It creates a conflict of interest to accept an applicant to a residency training program. 2.) If you're expecting someone to do the work, you need to pay them the same wage you're paying the rest. I offered this as a solution many times in the past and it was scoffed at. I would suggest OP not even bring it up. He can say I am willing to forego any benefits you are able to waive for me, but honestly that isn't going to incentivize anyone to take you as it's pennies to the hospital.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
Looking for some advice on re-entering residency as PGY-2
Replies
2
Views
2K
NotAProgDirector
NotAProgDirector
Peritus_Medicus
Clueless MD/PhD Looking for Residency App Advice
Replies
3
Views
3K
PSTP_experiences
P
N
IMG - need residency advice
Replies
2
Views
1K
NotAProgDirector
NotAProgDirector
F
Seeking support and advice
Replies
1
Views
1K
DrMetal
DrMetal
N
Unmatched USMD need advice
Replies
5
Views
2K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
Top