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This is only really an issue for MD/PhD applicants as far as I know. n = 1 but I applied with multiple research experiences, only included a letter from one, and interviewed at both schools you mentioned. So you can definitely include it in your activities without including a letter.Also, some med schools insist that they receive a recommendation from every lab worked in (like Harvard, Stanford, etc) - so I would either omit or include the research experience+rec from my app altogether.
This is only really an issue for MD/PhD applicants as far as I know. n = 1 but I applied with multiple research experiences, only included a letter from one, and interviewed at both schools you mentioned. So you can definitely include it in your activities without including a letter.
If you have the surgical PI letter plus 2 science and 1 non-science faculty letter, schools would rather not get more LORs unless it adds something new. I don’t think they have the time to question it and you were just there for 7 months anyways as opposed to multiple years.Thanks, guys, my only fear is that not having the letter raises a red flag, or appears unusual - especially if I still keep the research experience on my app. I wish I could ask an adcom if this was a red flag or if I could justify it somehow and not tarnish my app.
When I get an app from someone with significant research but no PI letter, I generally assume the PI didn't want to see their precious baby workhorse escape their clutches and go to medical school. Research is often a cutthroat business, and sometimes the biggest jerks are the ones who pull ahead (and stay continuously funded).Thanks, guys, my only fear is that not having the letter raises a red flag, or appears unusual - especially if I still keep the research experience on my app. I wish I could ask an adcom if this was a red flag or if I could justify it somehow and not tarnish my app.
The red flag is a negative letter. I think it logical to say that the absence of a negative letter is the absence of a red flag. I agree, few people are going to care, and if they do care, don't apply to that school who thinks that all PI's are without any character flaws and are extremely good judges of character and professionalism.Thanks, guys, my only fear is that not having the letter raises a red flag, or appears unusual - especially if I still keep the research experience on my app. I wish I could ask an adcom if this was a red flag or if I could justify it somehow and not tarnish my app.
This is what I was hoping and am leaning towards!Under no circumstances should you have him write a LOR. Your other publications are more than enough for the research powerhouses
I am meeting with him on zoom next week, am going to be straight up and ask if he'd be willing to write a wholly positive rec, and if not that I can't include his rec or my lab experience in his lab in my apps. He is a PhD on many PhD panels, he surely knows that a negative rec tanks the chances of competitive applicants.
Yes, a bad LOR is a red flag, but no, it is not logical to say that the absence of something that is otherwise expected is the absence of a red flag. Hence, the query. 🙂 At a school like Harvard, if someone does a search and finds OP's pub, the absence of a LOR from the PI will indeed be a red flag.The red flag is a negative letter. I think it logical to say that the absence of a negative letter is the absence of a red flag. I agree, few people are going to care, and if they do care, don't apply to that school who thinks that all PI's are without any character flaws and are extremely good judges of character and professionalism.
I won't take sides with this question but I will ask: so what exactly does he mean by you having a problematic behavior pattern? What did you do to try to address this complaint, or did this just pop up without any notice or opportunity for correction?
I wouldn't bother. You don't need it, and you'll never be able to 100% trust the letter regardless. You have more than enough research experience and productivity without it.That's true! I'll ask if there's any additional work I can do... in hopes that I can gain his enthusiasm for my medical school apps. But again I no longer work in his lab, so I don't know what much there is to do. He isn't very sympathetic, very scientifically robotic - he is very direct (and slightly socially unaware) in most interactions he's had with me and ones I've watched him have with others. That's why I think it might be a lost cause but you're right I won't be as blunt right off the bat.
Thanks, worst case I omit it and hope the other research is enoughI wouldn't bother. You don't need it, and you'll never be able to 100% trust the letter regardless. You have more than enough research experience and productivity without it.
Look, relationships are sometimes messy. We've been around, we get that. Could some adcom at some med school you apply to decide to grab this bone and run with it? Sure. But odds are most won't notice or care. Besides, your only other option is to include a letter you know is problematic, which is a non-starter.@Med Ed Do you ussually assume a lacking PI letter is due to the PI and not the student? Is this in most cases, even when pubs are involved? When schools ask for all PI letters and don't see that I submitted one (especially from a lab where I first authored a paper), I feel like they'll wonder why the mentor who oversaw my first-authored pub wasn't included on the recommendation list. I am curious to know if you disagree with this logic.
Yup, know the type.He isn't very sympathetic, very scientifically robotic - he is very direct (and slightly socially unaware) in most interactions he's had with me and ones I've watched him have with others.
1 - I will definitely be straightforward as a last ditch effort.
2 - A few schools do say they want all PI recs. Example is from Harvard's site: "We should receive letters from all research supervisors for applicants to the MD-PhD program as well as applicants to the MD program. Applicants may exceed the six (6)-letter maximum if the additional letters are from research supervisors."
Letters of Evaluation
All letters of evaluation must be submitted to AMCAS. Applicants are allowed up to six (6) letters of recommendation in support of their application, but a minimum of three individual letters of recommendation or a committee letter are required. When considering the total number of letters to...meded.hms.harvard.edu
Maybe it is a soft requirement?
Ope, I missed that. Sorry. Blame the med school brain fog. Maybe? Nowhere I applied seemed to care! That's such a weird request.2 - A few schools do say they want all PI recs. Example is from Harvard's site: "We should receive letters from all research supervisors for applicants to the MD-PhD program as well as applicants to the MD program. Applicants may exceed the six (6)-letter maximum if the additional letters are from research supervisors."
Letters of Evaluation
All letters of evaluation must be submitted to AMCAS. Applicants are allowed up to six (6) letters of recommendation in support of their application, but a minimum of three individual letters of recommendation or a committee letter are required. When considering the total number of letters to...meded.hms.harvard.edu
Maybe it is a soft requirement?
Literally last cycle lol. I didn't apply to Harvard/Stanford, but I did apply to Mayo/Michigan/Brown/Darty/Emory and other reasonably high-ranked research-y places.When did you apply?
Come back to reality please. A bad LOR will be lethal.Thanks, guys, my only fear is that not having the letter raises a red flag, or appears unusual - especially if I still keep the research experience on my app. I wish I could ask an adcom if this was a red flag or if I could justify it somehow and not tarnish my app.
Maybe. Depends on how you feel about receiving credit for the work. If you are willing to let it go, you're not under any obligation to disclose and you're right, there will be nothing to search.Pub won't be out till the end of the cycle probably, we are sending for peer review next month. Does this make you think it's better to just not mention the experience? Since the adcoms won't search my name and find the pub in the app cycle.
With no pub to claim or to come up in a search, this is honestly exactly what I would do!Thanks, worst case I omit it and hope the other research is enough
What about Harvard, where they are explicitly asking for it? Isn't omitting it for them analogous to omitting an unreported IA on AMCAS?You are under no obligation to list every work/activity you've ever engaged in on the application. (This isn't a government security clearance application.) If you don't list something, no one will fault you for not having a corresponding letter.
There are 15 spots on AMCAS, maybe it doesn’t make the cut. The letter requirement is really only there for listed activities. Even then, I remember reading it’s a suggestion. I don’t think this is anything like omitting an IA.What about Harvard, where they are explicitly asking for it? Isn't omitting it for them analogous to omitting an unreported IA on AMCAS?
Don’t even meet with him. If it’s true he cussed you out (as opposed to a lecture about checking product sheets/protocols to avoid wasting reagents), the guy is unpredictable and you’re better off without him. It’s supposed to be a professional environment and it sounds like you were the only one there to help him get anything done? There’s no telling that he wouldn’t just say “yeah I’ll write a positive letter” and then change his mind again.Yeah I asked him to write a rec for a school scholarship I applied to a couple of weeks ago... the committee reached out to me and told me his rec was negative...
It's not about making a cut. AMCAS requires disclosure of all IAs, "even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition."There are 15 spots on AMCAS, maybe it doesn’t make the cut. The letter requirement is really only there for listed activities. Even then, I remember reading it’s a suggestion. I don’t think this is anything like omitting an IA.
I don’t think I need to explain the difference between not reporting a violation that appears on official academic records (and AMCAS is very clear about) vs not talking about a research experience someone had for 7 months.It's not about making a cut. AMCAS requires disclosure of all IAs, "even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition."
Harvard requires a letter from ALL PIs, not just the ones you had room to fit on your primary, In fact, apparently, "[a]pplicants may exceed the six (6)-letter maximum if the additional letters are from research supervisors."
Exactly what's the difference here?
Excellent point! I did not check the website, and was relying on the excerpt OP included above. I believe you found the "Get Out of Jail Free" card here.I don’t think I need to explain the difference between not reporting a violation that appears on official academic records (and AMCAS is very clear about) vs not talking about a research experience someone had for 7 months.
Since you checked the website, you can see that Harvard also says “While we strongly recommend meeting the criteria listed above, these are not strict requirements. Ultimately, the letters applicants choose to include are up to their own discretion. Applicants should choose the letters of evaluation they believe will best support their application.”
Whether or not the IA or other official violation appears on the student’s record, it probably had to do with alcohol, drugs, cheating/plagiarism etc. The specifics of the incident can vary, but schools care as these all are more strongly associated with bad judgement and character considering they are direct policy violations. There is also likely other official documents relating to the incident even if it’s not on a transcript.Excellent point! I did not check the website, and was relying on the excerpt OP included above. I believe you found the "Get Out of Jail Free" card here.
Also, for the record, AMCAS requires reporting violations even if they do NOT appear on official academic records. That would be the analogy here if Harvard didn't make it a strong recommendation as opposed to a requirement, and if Harvard didn't clarify that they don't expect you shoot yourself in the foot! 🙂
It is courageous to ask him, but you should include your experience in the application even if you don't get his letter of recommendation. You are not required to have his blessing.I am meeting with him on zoom next week, am going to be straight up and ask if he'd be willing to write a wholly positive rec, and if not that I can't include his rec or my lab experience in his lab in my apps. He is a PhD on many PhD panels, he surely knows that a negative rec tanks the chances of competitive applicants.
There is a big difference because institutions have offices regarding student conduct that document and remediate violations. Criminal background checks also exist, and there are studies that show that there may be a link between early problems before training and problems later on in one's professional career; now we can also argue the problems with systemic discrimination also persist but that's another argument outside this thread.It's not about making a cut. AMCAS requires disclosure of all IAs, "even if the action does not appear on, or has been deleted or expunged from, your official transcripts as a consequence of institutional policy or personal petition."
Harvard requires a letter from ALL PIs, not just the ones you had room to fit on your primary, It's got nothing to do with listed activities, and everything to do with wanting feedback from ALL PIs, which is why they waive the limit for only that type of letter.
I don't know what the answer is here, which is why I'd love to get @LizzyM's take on this, but I honestly don't see the difference.
We agree on the advice. I just have a hard time imagining anyone investing time to do that type of a look up search for each PI listed and checking whether a letter got submitted. As I said, I've had a dilemma where the PI passed away. No PubMed search that I know of will flag anyone with that news.Yes, a bad LOR is a red flag, but no, it is not logical to say that the absence of something that is otherwise expected is the absence of a red flag. Hence, the query. 🙂 At a school like Harvard, if someone does a search and finds OP's pub, the absence of a LOR from the PI will indeed be a red flag.
True, this represents a lot of "ifs," but the concern is not misplaced and this could definitely be an issue at a school like Harvard. That said, OP is in a box and has no choice. Personally, I think he should list the research and the pub so that he gets credit for all the work he did, and so it doesn't look like he is hiding anything, and, of course, absolutely not get the letter. If it hurts at one or two schools, so be it. It's not going to destroy the cycle.
We agree on the advice. I just have a hard time imagining anyone investing time to do that type of a look up search for each PI listed and checking whether a letter got submitted. As I said, I've had a dilemma where the PI passed away. No PubMed search that I know of will flag anyone with that news.
Granted if a faculty member on my committee asks me to do it as a gesture, I will do it, but I can't imagine anyone dedicated to do that for thousands of applicants.
I agree... in all likelihood the missing letter will pop up in a conversational interview with the applicant: "Why didn't Dr. G write you a letter?" To me this would be a more likely and appropriate way to discover, "oh, Dr. G passed away..." or "Dr. G was unavailable to write me a letter" (or similar).what sometimes happens is that someone writes that they were in Dr. G's lab and then someone says, "where's the letter from Dr. G?" Oooh, no letter. They might Google "Dr. G, D... University" and find Dr. G's obituary which answers that question. Or they might make mention of the missing letter in their application review and ask an interviewer to question the applicant about it.
It is rare to see more than 2 entries that mention PIs so when reviewing an applicant who is likely to get an interview based on all other metrics, it isn't a big leap to check to see if Dr. G and Dr. L submitted letters on behalf of the applicant and to raise the point in one's write up.
Absolutely! And, I didn't read the website, so I missed the part about Harvard saying that it was okay to omit anything the applicant did not find helpful. Before that, I wasn't contemplating an exhaustive PI search. Rather, I thought maybe they would stumble upon the publication on a PubMed search and then wonder why OP didn't submit a LOR from that lab. But it's a non-issue given that Harvard is not requiring a LOR from each PI.We agree on the advice. I just have a hard time imagining anyone investing time to do that type of a look up search for each PI listed and checking whether a letter got submitted. As I said, I've had a dilemma where the PI passed away. No PubMed search that I know of will flag anyone with that news.
Granted if a faculty member on my committee asks me to do it as a gesture, I will do it, but I can't imagine anyone dedicated to do that for thousands of applicants.
You can dump the molecular bio paper and list only the surgery papers.Hi everyone,
I am a junior applying to medical schools this upcoming cycle. My goal is to matriculate into a top research medical school. I've worked in one molecular biology lab for 5 months and have contributed to a first author publication, and I have also worked in a surgical lab for 2 years (virtual during when I worked in the other lab) and have contributed to 2 first author experimental publications, 1 first author meta-analysis, 1 first author medical review, and have co-authored on 11 papers total (all of my papers for both labs are currently in review or in-press, first surgical paper is published in April 2022 before app cycle starts).
The molecular lab PI and I have fought a lot - and he recently told me that although he admires my work ethic, that he believes I have a problematic behavior pattern and will be direct about this in his recommendation letter. Me and him just don't get a long, and I truly believe he has an inherently abrasive mentoring style. On the other hand, the surgical lab PI loves me - I have done great work and he thinks I am at the level of many graduate or post-doc students.
My question is this: Should I just omit the molecular lab publication and experience from my med school app and not include his rec? I think this would remove any muddying of the waters that his rec would cause. I am missing out on taking credit for a 5-month research project that led to a 1st author publication, but I am hoping that the 11 papers I'm publishing in the surgical lab more than compensate.
Or should I include the molecular research on the activity section and solicit his rec, and write an optional essay about how I was a novice in the molecular lab and learned a lot, and used it as a learning experience to make sure I correct those mistakes and work better in the surgical lab (which I spent the most time in after working in the molecular lab).
I don't want to introduce doubt in the adcoms minds by including the molecular research experience on my app and not including a PI letter, so I either want to include the molecular research+rec together or omit them altogether. What do you guys suggest?
I am sorry you are going through this. Your PI honestly seems like a horrible peron.
Seen it a hundred times.and if an adcom asks I am going to say that he was difficult to work with and didn't support me going to a MD instead of PhD (which he explicitly mentioned today :/ ).
I do not recommend giving this answer in the unlikely event that this 'missing' LOR is brought up. As a general rule, we rarely look better by talking negatively about others. Just my thoughts.if an adcom asks I am going to say that he was difficult to work with
Dude, don’t use that PI’s letter and i suggest dumping that pub from AMCAS anyways because you already have a strong research record from your other research experience. Why even bring that topic up when there’s no need to list that molecular bio paper in the first place?Update: I confronted my PI. He said all letters to med school CANNOT be perfect, and if they are wholly positive then they are complete BS. Basically, he told me no undergraduate is perfect so it is completely natural for him to mention my weaknesses in my letter, as he has done for every undergraduate he has written letters for in the past. He mentioned that he wrote in the letter I was in the "top 10%" of all undergraduate students, and that I have exceptional potential for a research career, but that he also mentions that I took too many responsibilities (the three part time jobs outside the lab I needed to pay for bills) to completely focus at the research at hand and caused me to make mistakes (like leaving the lids of reagents for a couple hours, leaving restriction enzymes on ice for too long, coming into lab 2 hours after I said I would ue to other work obligations, etc).
Definitely not getting a rec from him, I will just mention the pub on my activities, and if an adcom asks I am going to say that he was difficult to work with and didn't support me going to a MD instead of PhD (which he explicitly mentioned today :/ ).
Thanks for all the help y'all.
I guess he can be the gatekeeper that picks who deserves to go to medical school or graduate school. We can see that attitude a galaxy away. Nevertheless, who knows what faculty members will take his letter seriously.Update: I confronted my PI. He said all letters to med school CANNOT be perfect, and if they are wholly positive then they are complete BS. Basically, he told me no undergraduate is perfect so it is completely natural for him to mention my weaknesses in my letter, as he has done for every undergraduate he has written letters for in the past. He mentioned that he wrote in the letter I was in the "top 10%" of all undergraduate students, and that I have exceptional potential for a research career, but that he also mentions that I took too many responsibilities (the three part time jobs outside the lab I needed to pay for bills) to completely focus at the research at hand and caused me to make mistakes (like leaving the lids of reagents for a couple hours, leaving restriction enzymes on ice for too long, coming into lab 2 hours after I said I would ue to other work obligations, etc).
Definitely not getting a rec from him, I will just mention the pub on my activities, and if an adcom asks I am going to say that he was difficult to work with and didn't support me going to a MD instead of PhD (which he explicitly mentioned today :/ ).
Thanks for all the help y'all.