UPenn MD/PhD student talks about his college "failures" - strangely inspiring video

[jhmmd]

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I would guess they were aware of it too. Sorry, what I meant was, I dont know how med schools differentiate between schools like MIT and Caltech, which are very famously extremely difficult, and a school such as Cornell, that is still quite hard, but not to quite the same level. Idk if all 3 are equally viewed (3.5 MIT=3.5 Cornell=4.0 state school) or if there's degrees (3.5 MIT=3.75 Cornell=4.0 state school) or etc.

I suspect this varies a lot by school and no one could give a standardized answer.

No, it doesn't work like that
A high GPA from a prestigious school is of course going to bump your application to the top of the pile, but as others (and yourself) have noted, this is hard to do. There is no equalizing ratio or anything. Just know that prestige doesn't matter as much as it may seem. GPA/MCAT are king.

 

[KnightDoc]

Unless this changed in the years since I applied, this isn’t true. I didn’t use interfolio and had my letters directly sent to amcas.

It hasn't changed. Interfolio is an independent, for-profit, private service. You can use them to hold your letters and they will send them wherever you want, including, but not limited to, AMCAS. Many people can, and do, have schools, committees and individual outside writers submit directly to AMCAS, without using Interfolio at all.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It hasn't changed. Interfolio is an independent, for-profit, private service. You can use them to hold your letters and they will send them wherever you want, including, but not limited to, AMCAS. Many people can, and do, have schools, committees and individual outside writers submit directly to AMCAS, without using Interfolio at all.

Yeah, that’s how it was when I applied, and it seems like @sadwinter wasn’t actually disputing that.

 

[DoctorFate]

It hasn't changed. Interfolio is an independent, for-profit, private service. You can use them to hold your letters and they will send them wherever you want, including, but not limited to, AMCAS. Many people can, and do, have schools, committees and individual outside writers submit directly to AMCAS, without using Interfolio at all.

Haha glad to see you're back

 

[gyngyn]

Ask them whether they can show it to you now.

I've never had a letter requester ask to see the letter.
If it ever happens, I will tell them that perhaps they would do better elsewhere (no matter how strong the letter would have been).

 

[MyOdyssey]

I've never had a letter requester ask to see the letter.
If it ever happens, I will tell them that perhaps they would do better elsewhere (no matter how strong the letter would have been).

Have you ever declined to write a letter because you couldn't honestly write a good one for that applicant?

Have you ever agreed to write a letter and then written an unhelpful one, which includes but isn't limited to "damning with faint praise"?

 

[jhmmd]

I've never had a letter requester ask to see the letter.
If it ever happens, I will tell them that perhaps they would do better elsewhere (no matter how strong the letter would have been).

Yea it's not a two-way street--letter writers can offer to show an applicant the letter, but it's not considered polite or appropriate for the person requesting the letter to ask to see the letter

 

[deleted1025488]

Have you ever declined to write a letter because you couldn't honestly write a good one for that applicant?

Have you ever agreed to write a letter and then written an unhelpful one, which includes but isn't limited to "damning with faint praise"?

Bro generally people will not waste their time writing a damage letter. There's plenty of templates/AAMC guidelines on how to write a letter and I presume the majority of people follow that. Most LoR writers, especially professors, write and have written a lot of letters; many of the people they write letters for are largely unknown to them, and they learn all they need to know in a 30-60 min long meeting. This is an average letter.

No prof will waste their time writing a bad letter unless you actually pissed them off or did something bad in their class multiple times. Even then, that's pretty cruel, I assume a stern "no lol" is probably all that will happen.

This whole talk about reading letters and letter importance is inflated asf based on literally one guy's story lol. Just don't ask some 85 year old who clearly hates his student and you should be good. Also don't waste reviewer's time collecting 10 letter from every EC you have.

 

[jhmmd]

Bro generally people will not waste their time writing a damage letter. There's plenty of templates/AAMC guidelines on how to write a letter and I presume the majority of people follow that. Most LoR writers, especially professors, write and have written a lot of letters; many of the people they write letters for are largely unknown to them, and they learn all they need to know in a 30-60 min long meeting. This is an average letter.

No prof will waste their time writing a bad letter unless you actually pissed them off or did something bad in their class multiple times. Even then, that's pretty cruel, I assume a stern "no lol" is probably all that will happen.

This whole talk about reading letters and letter importance is inflated asf based on literally one guy's story lol.

But, it does happen

 

[deleted1025488]

But, it does happen

Sure but a lot of things 'can happen' like I'm not going to memorize the Bible because some guy got grilled in his MD interview for claiming christianity and not knowing a random Bible verse after interviewing with a hardcore Christian

 

[DoctorFate]

Sure but a lot of things 'can happen' like I'm not going to memorize the Bible because some guy got grilled in his MD interview for claiming christianity and not knowing a random Bible verse after interviewing with a hardcore Christian

I mean, do you really believe less than 1% of letters could have a negative effect on an applicant.

You can say its just one guy's story, but simply Google "bad rec letter what should u do" on sdn or r/premed. While it isn't a common occurrence it's not some near unheard of experience. Of course, there's no real way to quantify this, as most people with bad rec letters typically don't find out.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I mean, do you really believe less than 1% of letters could have a negative effect on an applicant.

You can say its just one guy's story, but simply Google "bad rec letter what should u do" on sdn or r/premed. While it isn't a common occurrence it's not some near unheard of experience. Of course, there's no real way to quantify this, as most people with bad rec letters typically don't find out.


That's why if you're gonna ask, you should ask after its uploaded, but before it's submitted to med schools if you plan on doing so lol.

Thankfully, I was close enough to my letter writers that I never had to ask. Asking seems very awkward ngl.

The problem arises when you’re asking someone who doesn’t normally write medical school rec letters, say an Americorp or other nonclinical volunteering supervisor. They may mean well and still do damage inadvertently.

 

[jhmmd]

Sure but a lot of things 'can happen' like I'm not going to memorize the Bible because some guy got grilled in his MD interview for claiming christianity and not knowing a random Bible verse after interviewing with a hardcore Christian

True

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I've never had a letter requester ask to see the letter.
If it ever happens, I will tell them that perhaps they would do better elsewhere (no matter how strong the letter would have been).

I mean everyone's point of view on this may be slightly different. From my point of view, if you are doing me a favor by writing me a letter, I'd like to see the favor. What's awkward about that? when you move around for a new job as a physician, you normally need a reference letter from your current employer and almost always your current employer will hand you the letter unsealed. What's so secret about what you are writing about someone that you are so afraid to share that info with that person?? Other than a power trip... If you are generous enough to write me a letter, why can't you be generous to share what you think about me with me? there shouldn't be any trust issue here.

 

[jhmmd]

I mean, do you really believe less than 1% of letters could have a negative effect on an applicant.

You can say its just one guy's story, but simply Google "bad rec letter what should u do" on sdn or r/premed. While it isn't a common occurrence it's not some near unheard of experience. Of course, there's no real way to quantify this, as most people with bad rec letters typically don't find out.


That's why if you're gonna ask, you should ask after its uploaded, but before it's submitted to med schools if you plan on doing so lol.

Thankfully, I was close enough to my letter writers that I never had to ask. Asking seems very awkward ngl.

LOL where is @JustPaws

 

[deleted1025488]

I mean, do you really believe less than 1% of letters could have a negative effect on an applicant.

You can say its just one guy's story, but simply Google "bad rec letter what should u do" on sdn or r/premed. While it isn't a common occurrence it's not some near unheard of experience. Of course, there's no real way to quantify this, as most people with bad rec letters typically don't find out.

I googled it and first 2 results were two people saying "I didn't know who to ask so I asked someone who is known to write bat letters" like lol you can't make this stuff up: Bad Recommendation Letter?

Anyways I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying if you do your due diligence you can be almost certain the letter will be 'good enough.' This includes doing well in the class, participating in class, taking 2+ classes with said prof or TAing for the prof, going to office hours and chatting with the professor about both academic/non-academic things (i.e. be a human but refrain from being annoying), and making sure the prof has a good track record with letters.

If, after all that, I have to ask the prof to make sure my letter is good, that honestly feels disrespectful. Usually if you did all that AND the prof says they will write you a strong letter, they will...asking to check is just weird.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I googled it and first 2 results were two people saying "I didn't know who to ask so I asked someone who is known to write bat letters" like lol you can't make this stuff up: Bad Recommendation Letter?

Anyways I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying if you do your due diligence you can be almost certain the letter will be 'good enough.' This includes doing well in the class, participating in class, taking 2+ classes with said prof or TAing for the prof, going to office hours and chatting with the professor about both academic/non-academic things (i.e. be a human but refrain from being annoying), and making sure the prof has a good track record with letters.

If, after all that, I have to ask the prof to make sure my letter is good, that honestly feels disrespectful. Usually if you did all that AND the prof says they will write you a strong letter, they will...asking to check is just weird.

What about letters from employers, volunteering experience supervisors and others who aren't used to writing medical school rec letters? The guardrails you mention just aren't there.

 

[jhmmd]

What about letters from employers, volunteering experience supervisors and others who aren't used to writing medical school rec letters? The guardrails you mention just aren't there.

I think that's what joe32 was saying. In general, if someone says that they will write you a good letter of rec, they will. Just take into acct everything that has happened since you have known this person, and use your good judgement.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You’re missing the entire point of the waiver.

I mean everyone's point of view on this may be slightly different. From my point of view, if you are doing me a favor by writing me a letter, I'd like to see the favor. What's awkward about that? when you move around for a new job as a physician, you normally need a reference letter from your current employer and almost always your current employer will hand you the letter unsealed. What's so secret about what you are writing about someone that you are so afraid to share that info with that person?? Other than a power trip... If you are generous enough to write me a letter, why can't you be generous to share what you think about me with me? there shouldn't be any trust issue here.

 

[DoctorFate]

The problem arises when you’re asking someone who doesn’t normally write medical school rec letters, say an Americorp or other nonclinical volunteering supervisor. They may mean well and still do damage inadvertently.

THIS. Everyone that was in that hospital volunteering program i mentioned got the "nonclinical" letter after advising switched one year prior. The program always posts med school results, and that particular year, outcomes were rather poor across the board (it's a major source of hours for most, so volunteers typically get a letter from there). That's what tipped me off that it might be a systemic problem.

A bit of a side note, but the top 2% of that professor's class that wrote me the rec letter is typically high performing. This past year, not a single one of us was accepted to med school. I found out halfway through my cycle from my seniors never to ask him for a letter because this is a consistent theme. Ironically, he denied all my friends' letters and only even offers to write letters (enthusiastically) for the students he truly loves. Of course, this particular example is a very very rare case.

 

[DoctorFate]

What about letters from employers, volunteering experience supervisors and others who aren't used to writing medical school rec letters? The guardrails you mention just aren't there.

Just wondering, are you an applicant rn, or next year?

 

[KnightDoc]

I mean, do you really believe less than 1% of letters could have a negative effect on an applicant.

You can say its just one guy's story, but simply Google "bad rec letter what should u do" on sdn or r/premed. While it isn't a common occurrence it's not some near unheard of experience. Of course, there's no real way to quantify this, as most people with bad rec letters typically don't find out.


That's why if you're gonna ask, you should ask after its uploaded, but before it's submitted to med schools if you plan on doing so lol.

Thankfully, I was close enough to my letter writers that I never had to ask. Asking seems very awkward ngl.

This^^^^^. If they offer, great! If not, it is kind of pointless to ask, especially AFTER uploading it.

In @gyngyn's case, you are going to piss her off by asking. Based on her reaction, you're not going to use it, even if it's great. So, what's the point of waiting to ask, making the prof write the letter, and then not using it? Total waste of everyone's time!!

@joe32 is right. Bad letters are pretty rare. Most letters are okay, not spectacular, and don't move the needle. You'll be fine, whether or not you happen to see them, just by using common sense when deciding who to ask to write them. Normal people who don't want to be bothered or don't think their letter will help will decline.

Your situation is very rare, so I totally get where you are coming from. It's still beyond rude to disingenuously sign a waiver to induce people to write them, and to induce schools to give them weight they don't deserve, when you have no intention of actually honoring the waiver by not using any letter you haven't seen. TBH, it's a form of lying on the app, even though it is probably impossible to get caught.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Just wondering, are you an applicant rn, or next year?

Year after that

 

[KnightDoc]

Year after that

Way to go! Getting a head start, just like I did!! 😎

 

[JustPaws]

LOL where is @JustPaws

I think you tagged wrong person, I'm a vettie, got in on first cycle, and didn't read my LORs but assume they were fine.

 

[deleted1025488]

What about letters from employers, volunteering experience supervisors and others who aren't used to writing medical school rec letters? The guardrails you mention just aren't there.

You can just not ask? I mean how much weight do you really think those letters even have? From what I can understand and see among peers, most have 5-6 letters; committee, PI(s), 3 professors, and a physician.

At least during my evaluation of LoRs and writers, I really didn't think my nonclinical or clinical volunteering activities would produce decent letter of recommendation. To be clear, I'm sure they would be decent content wise, but what exactly would they say that is not already in my application..things like soft skills, empathy, etc. are evaluated during the interview. What does a letter from a volunteer coordinator saying those exact same things really do? Of course you could say the same for class LoRs, but they are required.

 

[KnightDoc]

You can say it's unethical given that there is a general expectation that you haven't seen the letters, but tbh idk why this expectation even exists. I literally don't know a single applicant that has not seen at least 1 letter in his application because so many letter writers are not only enthusiastic to write them, but also enthusiastic to show them (or at least, a nontrivial percentage)! Regardless, violating an unwritten expectation that involves your own application and is purely voluntary on the writer's part is in no way unethical to me, but I understand if you and others view it differently. You are, of course, free to do as you wish, and I wish you all best of luck!

Well, you do now, because at my school seeing the letters was not a thing. Being cute and parsing language is fine, but the point of the waiver is to give the schools confidence that the letters are candid because they haven't been shared with you. It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. If you want to see them, you have every right to not sign the waiver, in which case schools receive them with the disclosure that they might be shared with you.

The fact that a lot of writers ignore the waiver and share anyway isn't the point. You were correct when you said you are not violating the waiver if they offer to share the letter with you and you accept. You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen, because the waiver is really just for the schools and no way are you actually going to send a letter without reviewing it first.

I can't speak for @gyngyn, but I'd be very surprised if the ethics involved weren't why she'd refuse to write a letter after receiving such a request, even if it would have been a great letter. JMHO.

 

[DoctorFate]

You can just not ask? I mean how much weight do you really think those letters even have? From what I can understand and see among peers, most have 5-6 letters; committee, PI(s), 3 professors, and a physician.

At least during my evaluation of LoRs and writers, I really didn't think my nonclinical or clinical volunteering activities would produce decent letter of recommendation. To be clear, I'm sure they would be decent content wise, but what exactly would they say that is not already in my application..things like soft skills, empathy, etc. are evaluated during the interview. What does a letter from a volunteer coordinator saying those exact same things really do? Of course you could say the same for class LoRs, but they are required.

Your application cycle has clearly been very successful, so I'm glad you did what asked best for you. However, our committee strongly recommends a clinical volunteering or clinical work related LoR, and all my friends and myself have 1 letter related to that. Just curious, if you got 6 letters, one from a physician, 4 professors, one from a PI, what would your sixth be? (in our school committee letter is seperate and doesn't count, idk about yours)

 

[gyngyn]

Have you ever declined to write a letter because you couldn't honestly write a good one for that applicant?

Have you ever agreed to write a letter and then written an unhelpful one, which includes but isn't limited to "damning with faint praise"?

I have never been asked for a letter from someone for whom I could not write a convincingly strong letter.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Your application cycle has clearly been very successful, so I'm glad you did what asked best for you. However, our committee strongly recommends a clinical volunteering or clinical work related LoR, and all my friends and myself have 1 letter related to that. Just curious, if you got 6 letters, one from a physician, 4 professors, one from a PI, what would your sixth be? (in our school committee letter is seperate and doesn't count, idk about yours)

Lol, it's easy for someone who's having a good cycle to say "whatever" to every minutiae that they previously were so obsessed over before they got accepted.

 

[DoctorFate]

Well, you do now, because at my school seeing the letters was not a thing. Being cute and parsing language is fine, but the point of the waiver is to give the schools confidence that the letters are candid because they haven't been shared with you. It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. If you want to see them, you have every right to not sign the waiver, in which case schools receive them with the disclosure that they might be shared with you.

The fact that a lot of writers ignore the waiver and share anyway isn't the point. You were correct when you said you are not violating the waiver if they offer to share the letter with you and you accept. You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen, because the waiver is really just for the schools and no way are you actually going to send a letter without reviewing it first.

I can't speak for @gyngyn, but I'd be very surprised if the ethics involved weren't why she'd refuse to write a letter after receiving such a request, even if it would have been a great letter. JMHO.

Here is the waiver that is signed in AMCAS: I have waived my right to inspect letters in my premedical reference file.

"It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. [...] You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen"

I truly don't see how doing that violates the waiver in any way. The waiver is literally just a legal document. You're waiving FERPA rights (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99), which has absolutely nothing to do with asking to see your letters. I explained how I can totally understand if you believe you are violating an "unwritten explanation" but you seem to believe this expectation is written into the waiver when it simply is not.

 

[jhmmd]

Here is the waiver that is signed in AMCAS: I have waived my right to inspect letters in my premedical reference file.

"It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. [...] You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen"

I truly don't see how doing that violates the waiver in any way. The waiver is literally just a legal document. You're waiving FERPA rights (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99), which has absolutely nothing to do with asking to see your letters. I explained how I can totally understand if you believe you are violating an "unwritten explanation" but you seem to believe this expectation is written into the waiver when it simply is not.

Be careful when saying that something is "just a legal document"
It may be "just a legal document," but this is your med school application that you're talking about--very expensive, very time consuming, and a determinant of your future.

 

[gyngyn]

In @gyngyn's case, you are going to piss her off by asking.

Would you be disappointed if I were not female?

 

[DoctorFate]

Be careful when saying that something is "just a legal document"
It may be "just a legal document," but this is your med school application that you're talking about--very expensive, very time consuming, and a determinant of your future.

Exactly why I'm even bothering to talk about this, haha. I meant the Waiver was "just" a legal document in the sense that none of the extra expectations people seem to have associated with it are actually obligated.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Here is the waiver that is signed in AMCAS: I have waived my right to inspect letters in my premedical reference file.

"It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. [...] You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen"

I truly don't see how doing that violates the waiver in any way. The waiver is literally just a legal document. You're waiving FERPA rights (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99), which has absolutely nothing to do with asking to see your letters. I explained how I can totally understand if you believe you are violating an "unwritten explanation" but you seem to believe this expectation is written into the waiver when it simply is not.

Here's the relevant law. 34 CFR § 99.12 - What limitations exist on the right to inspect and review records?

In summary, schools can't use waiver as a condition for admissions. So basically they shouldn't be informed whether the waiver has been signed or not before an admissions decision is rendered (see below for the language). Otherwise, this section would be rendered unenforceable and toothless.

(1) A waiver under paragraph (b)(3)(i) of this section is valid only if:

(i) The educational agency or institution does not require the waiver as a condition for admission to or receipt of a service or benefit from the agency or institution; and....

 

[KnightDoc]

Would you be disappointed if I were not female?

Not at all! Forgive me for being sexist, but, based on your astitute comments regarding fashion and wardrobe, I just assumed it was far more likely than not that you are a female. Not to mention that, in general, you just seem way too even keeled and understanding to be a male. Was I wrong? 🙂

 

[gyngyn]

Not at all! Forgive me for being sexist, but, based on your astitute comments regarding fashion and wardrobe, I just assumed it was far more likely than not that you are a female. 🙂

All genders (and sexes) have something to offer.

 

[DoctorFate]

Here's the relevant law. 34 CFR § 99.12 - What limitations exist on the right to inspect and review records?

In summary, schools can't use waiver as a condition for admissions. So basically they shouldn't be informed whether the waiver has been signed or not before an admissions decision is rendered.

I actually forgot about that detail. This waiver has even less power than I thought. I vaguely remember reading that AMCAS doesn't even inform adcoms as to whether the waiver was signed or not (of course, you're committee can do as they please). Can any adcoms verify if this is true or not?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I actually forgot about that detail. This waiver has even less power than I thought. I vaguely remember reading that AMCAS doesn't even inform adcoms as to whether the waiver was signed or not (of course, you're committee can do as they please). Can any adcoms verify if this is true or not?

You are right. I added the relevant section above. Basically that section ensures that adcom does not know whether a waiver is signed or not.

 

[DoctorFate]

You are right. I added the relevant section above. Basically that section ensures that adcom does not know whether a waiver is signed or not.

It's interesting just how many expectations people have projected onto this waiver lol. Thanks for the insight.

 

[jhmmd]

Page 3, third paragraph outlines that if applicants waive their right to see each individual letter, they "are not permitted to view or obtain the LoR under any circumstances."

There is a section at the very bottom of the last page of the AMCAS application that asks you to verify that all information is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge (like a job application). So if you lie, your admission (and/or medical degree) may or may not be retroactively denied/revoked. And then you're deep in a pile of **** with mountains of debt.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

It's interesting just how many expectations people have projected onto this waiver lol. Thanks for the insight.

I don't practice educational law per se, but it's not a hard statute to read so any competent lawyer can tell you what it means.

 

[DoctorFate]

Page 3, third paragraph outlines that if applicants waive their right to see each individual letter, they "are not permitted to view or obtain the LoR under any circumstances."

There is a section at the very bottom of the last page of the AMCAS application that asks you to verify that all information is true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge (like a job application). So if you lie, your admission (and/or medical degree) may or may not be retroactively denied/revoked. And then you're deep in a pile of **** with mountains of debt.

uh... idk if you posted the wrong document or something but that's not AMCAS or anything to do with med school apps. This is the residency application (ERAS). As far as I know, no similar language exists in AMCAS. Here is the AMCAS applicant guide: https://students-residents.aamc.org/media/11616/download

I don't see anything like that here.

 

[jhmmd]

uh... idk if you posted the wrong document or something but that's not AMCAS or anything to do with med school apps. This is the residency application (ERAS). As far as I know, no similar language exists in AMCAS.

The AAMC is the official parent organization of AMCAS
AAMC = Association of American Medical Colleges
AMCAS = American Medical College Application Service

The link clearly is from the AAMC. Idk what you are smoking but it is not ERAS.

 

[DoctorFate]

The AAMC is the official parent organization of AMCAS
AAMC = Association of American Medical Colleges
AMCAS = American Medical College Application Service

The link clearly is from the AAMC. Idk what you are smoking but it is not ERAS.

Page 1 literally says in massive capital letters "ERAS". If you're going to be rude, at least be correct lol. I circled it below for you in case you somehow can't see it... though its REALLY hard to miss.

 

[jhmmd]

Bro, page 1 literally says in massive capital letters "ERAS". If you're going to be rude, at least be correct lol. I circled it below for you in case you somehow can't see it... though its REALLY hard to miss.

That's because it's the Association of American Medical Colleges. An umbrella organization. If you don't know what means, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[DoctorFate]

That's because it's the Association of American Medical Colleges. An umbrella organization. If you don't know what means, I don't know what to tell you.

???
This is the guide for residency applications. ERAS stands for "Electronic Residency Application Service". The statement you posted is therefore specific to residency related LoRs. Maybe they have a separate, differently worded waiver. Idk, never had to check, as I am years away from residency apps.

AAMC also handles AMCAS. In their applicant guide for AMCAS, your statement is never cited. AMCAS is completely unrelated to ERAS.

 

[jhmmd]

???
This is the guide for residency applications. ERAS stands for "Electronic Residency Application Service". The statement you posted is therefore specific to residency related LoRs. Maybe they have a separate, differently worded waiver. Idk, never had to check.

AAMC also handles AMCAS. In their applicant guide for AMCAS, your statement is never cited. AMCAS is completely unrelated to ERAS.

You don't have to explain these things to me
You were the one who asked for help in the first place, so if you know everything, then maybe you should have linked something instead

 

[KnightDoc]

Here is the waiver that is signed in AMCAS: I have waived my right to inspect letters in my premedical reference file.

"It's not an unwritten expectation -- it's actually a written waiver you are signing that is part of the application. [...] You are, however, crossing a line if you ask to see the letter after signing the waiver, and then don't use any letter you haven't seen"

I truly don't see how doing that violates the waiver in any way. The waiver is literally just a legal document. You're waiving FERPA rights (20 U.S.C. § 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99), which has absolutely nothing to do with asking to see your letters. I explained how I can totally understand if you believe you are violating an "unwritten explanation" but you seem to believe this expectation is written into the waiver when it simply is not.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. To me, waiving a right to inspect something means waiving a right to see it. If someone offers to show it to you, I see the grey area, but asking to see it is really no different from "inspecting" it.

If you want to parse words and saying that asking is different from demanding, fine. Don't sign the waiver if you want to let the schools know you aren't sending them letters you haven't seen. Otherwise, you are certainly misleading them by telling them you are waiving a right to inspect while not sending them anything you haven't already inspected.

To @joe32's point, this is much ado about nothing, because these letters don't change outcomes in almost all cases. Mediocre candidates receive mediocre letters. Good candidates receive good letters. Your bad experience with a LOR is pretty rare, so I totally appreciate where you are coming from. Doesn't change the fact that anyone who says the waiver doesn't imply they won't ask to see the letters is kidding themselves, and justifying doing whatever they think is necessary to give themselves an edge.

 

[MyOdyssey]

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. To me, waiving a right to inspect something means waiving a right to see it. If someone offers ot show it to you, I see the grey area, but asking to see it is really no different from "inspecting" it.

If you want to parse words and saying that asking is different from demanding, fine. Don't sign the waiver if you want to let the schools know you aren't sending them letters you haven't seen. Otherwise, you are certainly misleading them by telling them you are waiving a right to inspect while not sending them anything you haven't already inspected.

To @joe32's point, this is much ado about nothing, because these letters don't change outcomes in almost all cases. Mediocre candidates receive mediocre letters. Good candidates receive good letters. Your bad experience with a LOR is pretty rare, so I totally appreciate where you are coming from. Doesn't change the fact that anyone who says the waiver doesn't imply they won't ask to see the letters is kidding themselves and justifying doing whatever they think is necessary to give themselves an edge.

Hypothetical: A handful of notable medical schools (e.g. Harvard, Hopkins) require a letter from a non-science professor. Imagine you're a nontrad who's been out of school for 3 years and that you majored in a STEM subject. You legitimately fear that your non-science professors won't remember you even in courses that you aced, participated actively in and enjoyed. Here's a situation where you might want to see what different non-science professors actually remember about you before you send a non-science letter to a medical school.