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UPENN Tuition..ahhhhh!!!

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by MJOHN, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. MJOHN

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    Hey all, I was recently accepted to UPENN and so far it's the only school that I have recieved acceptance to. While it is my top choice, I am REALLY scared about taking on the debt load. Is anyone else losing sleep over taking out loans of that size? Is it inevitable that the debt will be paid off with ease? I would especially love to hear from those attending a provate school currently
     
  2. DrReo

    DrReo "Thread Necromancer"
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    I have been seriously considering the Navy HPSP, but not sure if it's for me... If you take the loans out for 30 years, it shouldn't be too bad, but I feel your pain. Almost everyone who graduates eventually pays the debt off, sooner or later.

    I agree about hearing from other currently attending expensive student loans.
     
  3. whlee84

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    I'm in the same situation...I picked UPenn over my state school, and will be paying almost 3 times the tuition to attend UPenn, which is my top choice. You can pay off your debt in 30 years or in 5 years. It all depends how you spend your money, and your priorities. As far as actually paying off the debt, it will not be a problem as long as you are a dentist.
     
  4. dentisttobe42

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    the fact of the matter is that if you're working in a private practice, coming straight out of dental school you should be making around 150K a year... if you specialize, even better... so depending on how you want to structure your loans, u should have no problem paying it off eventually and living a comfortable life... ur gonna be a dentist and have a lot of money!
     
  5. JessD

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    Can I ask how much is the overall cost of attending UPenn?
     
  6. ROSE1010

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    I did not apply but I think it is around $340,000 with housing and other expenses! However this was last year and most of private schools increase their tuition 4 to 5 % annually!
     
  7. whlee84

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    These are just estimates for academic year 2008-2009 that UPenn gives to incoming students. Give or take a few thousand bucks, depending on your spending habits, etc. The tuition each year is a fixed $53,990 and adding up all the expenses by each year:

    1st year: $82,928
    2nd year: $83,432
    3rd year: $85,900
    4th year: $83,256

    Total: $335,516
     
  8. whlee84

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    Yeah, you're right on. For most people, the total cost of attending UPenn will be in the range of $330,000 to $340,000. :eek:

    Which is right on par with other private schools around the nation.
     
  9. ROSE1010

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    I understand how you feel! I am accepted to USC and NYU and they are both expensive! I can't even choose between these two schools...USC is close to him but there are negatives around the school. NYU is far from home and NYC is an expensive city to live!
     
  10. Doc Ock

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    http://dental.pacific.edu/Academic_P..._and_Fees.html

    Sitting down? Dental School is expensive! How 'bout this for sticker shock?

    First Year Tuition + Fees at UOP

    $72896 + $18559= $91455

    sure UOP is only 3 years, but you still got to pay for the 1st year And this is not counting living expenses, this is just educational expense.
     
  11. condoleezarice

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    Lol. you wrote this exact post earlier in the thread about USC's tuition. Have something against Pacific?
     
  12. Doc Ock

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    What my Alma Mater? I just thought I would reiterate the absurd cost of dental education. UOP until recently hid their costs by stating it in 9 month installments. Their new website has the full 1 year cost in full light of the sun. I don't know how kids today can bear such exorbitant costs. USC, UOP, UPenn, NYU, Columbia are insanely expensive. That debt cannot be easily repayed, let alone more debt to buy or start a practice...not even thinking of buying a home or starting a family. Good luck to you all!
     
  13. iJackTeeth

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    doc ock thanks for your input, could you drop more info for us?

    the debt situation with dental school is a major issue for all dental students, so it would be interesting if you can tell us about your current situation and how long do you think you have before you pay off your debt?

    also is paying a 300K debt in 5 years possible?
     
  14. tjdent

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    Hahaha with the average GP in the united states making $160,000 a year you think you can make that much your first year out?? As a first year practicioner you are slow, so you better be working full days plus weekends and thus be employed at several practices if you want to even come close to that kind of dough. Sorry sir, try $90,000-100,000 if you find a solid job.
     
  15. tjdent

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    Then after taxes you have maybe $60,000. You choose to max your 401K bc you looked at an amoritization table once and now you have $45,000. Factor in the basic necessities of rent, food, utilities, car payment, and you can maybe afford to pay your school back $25,000 your first year. Thats if you live a spartan lifestyle. Forget about rewarding yourself with that BMW after you graduate D-school. That dream will have to wait.
     
    arierosa and laurenf like this.
  16. Jimmy Choo

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    tjdent has a great point...dentists right out of dental school will be very lucky to make 100K or so. The whole notion that "debt won't be an issue because you'll be a dentist making lots of money" is immature, in my opinion. It is a tough choice choosing between your state school and a top private school like Penn. Even though the overall difference might be 100~150k or so, I don't think you can look at that as "only a one year salary after I graduate from dental school"
     
  17. gryffindor

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    Paying these exorbitant costs for these private schools is NOT worth it if you have another option. The fact that students at Penn and USC pay 80K - 100K to go to school yet have to fight for chairs when they get to the clinic is unacceptable and a detriment to your education. Close to ten years ago the total cost of attending Penn was a little over 50K which was ridiculous then, yet a decade later students still don't have their own chairs and the new students are going to have to put up with construction while paying 30K more.

    However, such debt is much more easily repaid if you move to an area where there is a need for dentists. FYI, these areas are not Southern California, NYC, or Utah.
     
  18. AA3

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    Do students at UPenn have a hard time finding chair too?
     
  19. PSU SHC 414

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    :laugh::laugh: wow, some predents are so incredibly naive. Unless you have significant help from family or you win the lottery while you're in school, I think it's pretty safe to say that it'd be damn near imposisble to pay off 300K in 5 years, even as a specialist.

    Like a few others have said, after you subtract taxes, living expenses, car expenses, house mortgage, etc. from your gross pay as a dentist fresh out of school, how much per month do you think you'll be able to put towards repaying your 6 figure loan? Definitely not enough to pay it off in 5 years.

    So realistically, you're looking at a 30 year loan. And don't forget that interest starts accruing WHILE you're in school, so it's not just the 300k that you'll owe back. At an interest rate of 6% (that's an optimistic figure), I'll let you do the math on how much interest you'll accrue on a $300,000 principal over ~35 years. :eek: <-- take a look in the mirror after you calculate this number... I'll bet the expression on your face looks something like this.


    With regard to the Penn chair question posted by nik777... if you're a D3, the answer is yes. I shadowed a D4 at Penn right before the Christmas break, and he said that D4s have priority in the clinic since Penn students don't do ANY work (not even cleanings or simple perio procedures like sc/rp) towards fulfilling their clinical requirements until D3. Simply too many students and not enough chairs at Penn. The situation could be worse for the C/O 2013 (and future classes) depending on how Penn's administration handles the upcoming renovations of the main clinic.

    One other thing that this D4 pointed out to me. Since Penn has a "module" based clinical system, you're assigned to a specific set of clinical instructors for D3-D4. Even if these instructors are terrible, you're stuck with them since it's virtually impossible to switch groups. So this D4 said that while he was fortunate to be assigned to a great group of instructors, he knows of plenty of his classmates who have had an absolutely miserable clinical experience due to bad instructors. Essentially, your clinical experience at Penn is left to chance; I spoke to the students and instructors in this D4's "module", and they said that they'd consider "about 50%" of Penn's instructors to be "good/great". Just something else to think about...
     
  20. iJackTeeth

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    a few of the schools i visited, with 300K + tution said that a lot of their graduates were able to pay off their loans in 5-7 yrs. I dunno about you but i dont plan on buying a house, so i wont have that headache. I plan on putting at least 50K a year towards my loans.
     
  21. Quattro DMD

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    If I live on my own I'll owe between 330K-350K. If I live with my parents I'll only owe about 285K, but even if I make 100K/year when I graduate that's only 65K after taxes, subtract about 35K/year in loan repayment and I have 30K left to live off of. I'll probably still be driving my Chevy Cavelier....:laugh:

    How do you plan on shooting 50K toward your loans per year? That seems like a lot, even without a mortgage.
     
  22. iJackTeeth

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    work in california, 6 days a week. I will only need about 30K per year for living/personal expenses. I think 80K after taxes is quite doable, where did you get the 45% tax figure from?
     
  23. dent2009

    dent2009 YEEE BOI
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    Well your math is a bit off - 35K out of 100K is 35%. Not 45. Anyways, here's what we're looking at if you make 100K...

    Federal income tax for anyone making between 68k-132k is 25% (if filing as married) and 28% (if filing as single). Tack 12.4% for SS (if self-employed and half of that if you're not), state and local tax, and other BS tax they make you pay.

    All i gotta say is taxes are a BIAAAAAATCH!

     
  24. iJackTeeth

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    haha, thanks for the correction, skimmed over the numbers real quick.

    taxes are depressing
     
  25. dent2009

    dent2009 YEEE BOI
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    Actuallly, in the end, your unintended miscalculation of 45% is more on point with the amt of taxes we, as dentists, will be paying.

     
  26. iJackTeeth

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    wish my unintended miscalculations had helped me in QR,

    but thats a lot in taxes, who do we have to elect to cut that number down?
     
  27. kramkrap

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    these really are the greatest posts on sdn. I have no idea how this finance stuff works, but I think I learn more from these posts than from anywhere else haha. I shoulda taken a finance course...

    can anyone tell me how to math out the accruing interest stuff? wats the diference between apr and interest? and i dont know about you guys, but I dont even see how apr even works! I know how to calculate it, but for instance, when they gave me a certain apr on my cc, they use that to calculate my minimum monthly payments, but then if I pay that payment, it directly deduces it from my balance, so how the heck is the cc company making money? if my balance was $100, my apr is X%, then they tell me i have to pay $Y, then my balance will be $100-$Y.... I dont see how they make money? Im sure im not understanding this principal correctly, but does anyone know??
     
  28. Doc Ock

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    Quattro's calculation is essentially correct. Do not forget you also have to pay STATE taxes (and unless you live in a tax free state like Florida) this could be easily 8 to 10%.
     
  29. Ghettob1aster

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    APR ignores compounding. Say you owe .5% interest every month, your APR would just be 12 months x .5% = 6%. The APR is used in statements because it doesn't look as overwhelming as the EAR. What you really are paying is the EAR, which figures in compounding. So if they offer you a 6% APR, you divide by however many periods they put in a year (let's say 12) to get your monthly, which would be .5%. Then to get the EAR you would do 1.005^12 - 1 (this is (1 + interest rate)^the number of periods - 1) to get how much interest you are actually paying.
     
  30. klutzy1987

    klutzy1987 StudyingSucks Letsgo Mets
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    Taxes suck the government takes a little less than half your paycheck and what do they do with it, they give it to Auto makers and their executives. Or they give it to all the foreigners and lazy people that dont work and just get wellfare and medicare etc.. I hate paying taxes. Id rather give the money that I pay towards taxes to charity, a much more worth cause. Dont expect to pay off you debt that quick. Your forgetting about insurance after school, which will run you about 4k or so, car payments which are another 4k, Rent which is about 15k. Food which is another 5k. Thats only living by yourself. You have all your miscellaneous expenses and w/e and by the time we graduate most of us will be in their late 20's. Most will be married or in a long term relationship, perhaps with kids. Expenses double if thats the case. It doesnt make sense to pay off all your loans in 5 years. Thats 10 years of interest at lets say 6% compounding annually. If you borrowed 350k you will pay back about 500k if not more. Isnt gonna happen.
     
  31. JamesOSU

    JamesOSU Ohio State 2013
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    Just gonna say I've never felt 'good' about OSU's 4 year debt of ~$165,000, but I feel a lot better considering out-of-staters and private schooler's tuition. I was accepted to Case last cycle but declined to work a year and reapply to OSU, very very glad I took the year off and saved myself $150,000, phew!
     
  32. kramkrap

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    hey thanks for the help! so how can I find out how much I am paying if I have a $350,000 loan at 6% for 30 years? Can someone show me using calculations? I don't think I did my calculations right and Im having trouble with this. Would my monthly payments go down over the years?
     
  33. AlwaysImproving

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    Good to know!! :D I live in FL
    So FL does not charge *state* taxes?
    Humm, sounds too good to be true! :D I don't believe this hehehe:D
     
    #33 AlwaysImproving, Jan 12, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2009
  34. klutzy1987

    klutzy1987 StudyingSucks Letsgo Mets
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    Yeah, it would be 350,000 * (1.06)^34. There are 4 extra years because the 30 years doesnt start until after school but interest most definitely does.
     
  35. klutzy1987

    klutzy1987 StudyingSucks Letsgo Mets
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    That comes out to be $ 2,537,858.85. I believe my calculation was correct, which means that on a 30 year loan of 350k you will end up paying back roughly about 65% of that because each year your principle decreases as you pay it off. You will be paying back well over a million dollars.
     
  36. Ghettob1aster

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    If you had a 350k loan, APR of around 6% (don't know what the actual rate is, this would make a big difference), planned to pay it off over 30 years, and your payments and compounding periods were monthly, you'd be paying around 2100 a month and you'd finish up paying around 760k.

    That's all assuming that you took out your entire loan on the day you graduated from dental school, which is obviously never going to be true. So the actual numbers are a little higher.

    Look up amortization. It's only plugging a few equations and nowhere near as complicated as it sounds.

    We were taught this one:
    payment = your loan amount x interest rate / (1 - (1/(1 + interest rate))^# of periods)

    Multiply your payment amount by the number of periods to get the total you'd pay out. Subtract your loan amount from that to see how much you're paying in interest.
    The interest rate needs to be the period rate, not the annual rate.
     
  37. dr bojangles

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    with the current, albeit shoddy, economy and the market for borrowing money (govt and private) as it stands, the general rule that most schools gave me is that for each $1 you borrow, you'll owe about $1.80-$2 back.
    painful, but nevertheless a sound investment.
     
  38. Simiam

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    http://www.bankrate.com/brm/mortgage-calculator.asp

    You are looking at $2100 a month in payments. You will pay:
    $350,000 in principal
    $410,000 in interest
    Total: $760,000 for a Dental Education...
     
  39. PSU SHC 414

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    Anyone who is going to UPenn (w/o the Dean's scholarship) and just **** their pants after seeing this, raise their hand.

    Where's whlee when you need him??

    For the sake of argument, let's suppose that you're ambitious (i.e. naive in this case) and plan to pay off a 350k prinicipal in 10 years with a fixed 6.8% interest (this is the fixed rate of the Federal Stafford Loan... BUT, unless you have significant financial assets either from yourself or your family, you'll be taking out additional loans that have higher interest rates, so the 6.8% figure is very optimistic):

    Loan Calculator
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Loan Balance: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$350,000.00 .
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Loan Interest Rate: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]6.80%.
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Loan Term: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]10 years.
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Minimum Payment: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$50.00 .
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Monthly Loan Payment:.[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$4,027.81 .
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Number of Payments: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]120.
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Cumulative Payments: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$483,337.47 .
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]T.[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]otal Interest Paid: .[FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]$133,337.47 .
    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $4,027.81 plus a final payment of $4,028.08..

    [FONT=ARIAL, HELVETICA]It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $483,337.20 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. .
     
    #40 PSU SHC 414, Jan 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  40. dmd0

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    seriously, I won't marry my fellow classmate with that much debt...
     
  41. whlee84

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    that's it, i'm starting to buy lottery tickets!!

    haha it's not just UPenn...there are several other schools with similar tuition and costs, so it's a big problem for hundreds of students. well, all i can say is, get some help from your family to limit the amount of loans you take out, and live on a tight budget during dental school to save some bucks...

    my fellow UPenn classmates, don't let these numbers scare you...we will all live comfortably as dentists, even after the calculated $4000 monthly loan payments. if you can't live comfortably on a $10,000 monthly budget, there's something seriously wrong with you.
     
  42. dds4yrs

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    Just don't get "doctoritis" and think you need the brand new BMW/Mercedes or huge home to live in as soon as you graduate. There are PLENTY of dentist out there who all went through similar situations and they all had to repay debt as well. If you live modestly for a few years a huge portion should be paid for. You don't even have to buy your own practice as soon as you graduate. Nothing wrong with working under someone for a few years to get on your feet. Just don't go too big too quick! That's the key. I have been told by the dental schools to not let the price of tuition decide whether or not you go to dental school. It all will work out, just stay grounded a little while and then live the good life.
     
  43. UCSFx2017

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    Thread necromancy for future reference.

    This is probably going to be your financial schema if you attend UPenn.
    If you,
    • Took out $328,817 in loans (of which $162,000 is at 6.8% interest and $166,817 is at 7.9% interest)
    • Had an income of $95,000 for the first three years out of dental school and paid loans using income-based repayment (for those three years)
    • Had an income of $120,000 for the remaining term of loan repayment
    • Were on a ten-year repayment schedule
    your monthly repayment amount would be $6,330 and your total repayment would be $595,302. The total interest accrued would be $226,485.

    So if you had a salary of $120,000 and were single and lived in Virginia. Your federal income tax would be $26,893. Your state tax would be $6,642.50. Total taxes (federal + state) would come to $33,535.50. Your yearly loan repayment would be $75,960. Your net loss per year is $109,495.50. Your net income after taxes per year is $10,505.50.

    [​IMG]


    If you end up specializing in OMFS from UPenn, this could be your payment schedule (salary is exaggerated).

    [​IMG]

    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=985145
     
  44. aznboi89x

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    total interest accrued for the 10 year plan is $226,485.?
     
  45. UCSFx2017

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    The MedLoans calculator was designed for medical students who are expected to go through at least three years of residency. Since I couldn't get rid of the three year residency function (income-based repayment), I treated it as if it were three years out of dental school working in private practice. The total interest accrued is over three years of private practice using IBR and ten subsequent years in private practice using normal repayment. Total of 13 years.

    I'm overestimating the actual cost of attendance with the 3 years in IBR and a fixed salary at $120,000 (it should obviously go up as you gain experience).
    I think it's better to overestimate than underestimate.
     
  46. NDPitch

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
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    Sigh.

    Don't drink the kool-aid. ;)
     
  47. Surive123

    5+ Year Member

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    Wonder if you've started to regret this.....
     
  48. vilanmary

    Joined:
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    Status:
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    it will not be a problem as long as you are a dentist.[​IMG]
     
  49. mmmsteakdinners

    2+ Year Member

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    the tuition at penn is the only reason why I have to decline my acceptance.
     

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