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UQ-Ochsner and Competitive US Residencies

Discussion in 'Australasia and Oceania' started by calico96, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. calico96

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    I applied to 23 US MD schools but I have not received any interviews yet. I'm starting to look at the UQ-Ochsner program instead. I know UQ-Ochsner has had a very good match rate, but if I go there, will I have a good chance of getting a residency in a competitive speciality? I've recently become very interested in OB-Gyn, and I'm wondering if a more competitive speciality will be out of the question if I do this program instead of going to a US school.
     
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  3. Domperidone

    Physician Classifieds Approved

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    UQO grads have matched in OBGYN before.
    It's not easy. Even with UQO, it still carries a bit of stigma as 'off-shore' even though it's more in a grey-area as your home base is Ochsner in NOLA. The implication is that you'll still have to work harder than the average US MD or DO.

    Competitive specialties and chances of that as a UQO grad - I don't know. As I'm not in UQO, I'll leave it to the Ochsner students and grads to answer. I do know your chances are higher of matching in something in the US, if you apply broadly.
    Also depends on where you want to match in some competitive specialty, do you want some high sought after program too.

    Ideally, I'd suggest that you consider some DO schools first that are connected with programs you want to be part of in the future, or at least are in close vicinity. That way, it ensures that attendings in whatever field you're interested in, are familiar with you. It's much easier to get electives or subI's that way too. For competitive fields..it's always a challenge to arrange those if you're not in someway connected. Because everyone wants them. they get a high volume of requests. Unless you get lucky. You will however, get OBGYN rotations at Ochsner (which is an American hospital) and American LORs from that. And then same as usual for everyone, it's your board scores that truly open the doors.

    Anyway, only responding as there hasn't been replies yet!
     
    #2 Domperidone, Dec 7, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  4. mcat_taker

    mcat_taker MS III

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    check out the match lists on the mededpath website from the last few years. You'll see whereabouts people are matching and in what. Each year I think we get better and better matches as the class sizes have increased in recent years and are reaching a more critical mass with alumni in more places. This should only continue in the next few cycles as the bigger classes are only starting to match now and we will have better brand recognition as grads enter the workforce.
     
  5. LyMed

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    Unless you had some glaring red flag, I don't see why you wouldn't match into OBGYN. For more competitive specialties, yes you will have to work harder. However, people have matched into competitive specialties (and to good places) for years now. I think the only specialties that haven't been touched are integrated plastics and ENT.
     
  6. DrNwams!

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    Someone matched into plastics already.. 2015

    Plastic Surgery
    Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine,
    Roanoke, VA
     
  7. LyMed

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    Cool, even better.
     
  8. Domperidone

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    There's also one Ochsner match in Neurosurgery.
    That said, not everyone will make it to that caliber. lol.

    Also, yes grads (UQO or UQ tradish) have matched competitive programs too, it's a minority group but they do exist - as in the opportunities are there if you are brilliant and truly put in the work. It's advertised on meded. Also, it's crazy how much can't be relayed in those two words, 'work hard'.

    But technically..UQO is still considered IMG off-shore school and you go through ECFMG to write the Steps. From which international schools are you not considered an IMG? And Ochsner had to advise final years on what to say when asked why they choose an Australian-American school over US onshore during interview season. Not sure if its still a practice they still do. The stigma is there because widely..many students who choose any "IMG" school could not get into an onshore school. the selection criteria is lower for off shore as it still is for UQO. It's a subjective question to a degree, being an IMG can be a redflag to some programs, but having said that. There's 100s of different programs out there, and plenty of programs (even competitive ones) do not consider it a redflag.

    If it was a question of can't get anywhere in the US and you had to pick an offshore school. Then yes, hands-down, it would be UQO over any offshore school, it wouldn't be a competition. (That's if you want to match in the US. UQO is a massive disadvantage to applying to Australia). the advantages are so much superior than carib or anywhere else because of their US ties. Because two clinical years are done in the US in NOLA (you're raised int he American system, not the Australian one ironically). And so long as you have the board scores too, no one will really question the choices you made to get into medicine.

    Focussing on OP..
    (Who is probably long gone. They never actually responded)
    I don't want to take away the gravity of this decision that a lot of premeds kinda disregard. Rather than asking only current students and off shore grads or residents, it's worth asking the question in multiple different forums/places. The other place to ask is the OBGYNs you shadow as a premed, in the programs you want to match in. Or posting in the what are my chances threads or the residency forums, where there are active US-based program directors. You know, those people, who've been through the whole training process and now select and train the next generations upon generations of residents.
     
    #7 Domperidone, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  9. pre med 2014

    pre med 2014 SDN Gold Donor
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    as long as you get your step 2 score before buying your interview suit you will match
     
  10. Rhandhali

    Rhandhali UQ-Ochsner Alumnus

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    And dermatology and both of those people were absolute rock stars and the top of their year. The caveat is those weren't direct matches. Both of them had washed out of their respective fields (Ortho and Derm) the year before and had to scramble into freestanding prelim-only years, reapplying the next cycle to get those spots. It was an uphill and very near run thing for them.
     
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  11. DrNwams!

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    Thats not reassuring. So you are saying, they were top of their classes - went unmatched - then doing a pre lim year before reapplying

    Not a good representation for the programs rocksters

    Am a bit gutted to be honest , cos I was hopeful, i could attend and match a competitive specialty.
    Does the fact that ochsner have some of these competitive residences help at all? Would you categorize them as home programs.
     
  12. Rhandhali

    Rhandhali UQ-Ochsner Alumnus

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    You might be able to but you are going to be carrying the stigma of being an overseas graduate which implies you only went there because you weren't good enough to go to a "real" (i.e. US based) medical school. Assume that you will have to be better than every other candidate for competitive fields just to be considered as good as those people.

    This is also the experience of the third graduating class of less than 30 people. That's a long time in match terms, and these are extremely competitive fields. Most of those programs, I imagine, don't even look at applicants from overseas schools because why would you when you have your pick of the top of US medical schools? Part of my classmate's experience could be chalked up to being too conservative with applications, some of it has to do with most of the programs at Ochsner not being welcoming or even actively hostile to our own students (Orthopedics and general surgery especially).

    Mostly it was the fact that foreign medical graduates will always have an uphill battle for highly competitive fields, especially from newer programs. As the UQ-Ochsner program gets more established and sends more people out that will get less, but it will always be there.
     
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  13. DrNwams!

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    Do you know of any plan by uqo admin to improve relationship with these residences. From the gme website, some of the UQochsner faculties - are also faculties at these competitive specialties.
    Do they atleast interview every qualified Uq ochsner student that applies do their department. Isnt this what most home programs do.
    What do you mean by applying conservatively? Is this for lack of competitive scores amongst the students. Whats the step average of your class?
     
  14. Rhandhali

    Rhandhali UQ-Ochsner Alumnus

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    The residency programs are completely independent of the medical school and all do their own thing with their own prejudices and standards. UQO has no real influence or power over them to speak of. The school will advocate, it will harangue, it will pressure but they have absolutely no say in what goes on behind closed doors when it comes to picking interview candidates or making rank lists. Some programs like IM will offer interviews. I certainly got a courtesy interview from the anesthesia department as did several others but it meant **** all in the end. I can't speak to other programs, but by my recall general surgery, ortho and urology have all taken one, and only one, applicant from the UQ-Ochsner since it started putting out graduates. Thats not one a year, that is one, ever.

    For me, applying conservatively when you're an IMG means not applying to as many programs as you can. For competitive fields this means every single one of them. You either want it or you don't - You get one chance to make good and you need to apply as broadly as possible. Sure you want the best place you can get but as an IMG you are at a huge disadvantage out of the gate that you can't afford to miss out on a possible interview by being cheap. You are a beggar - you do not get to choose. The graduates who got derm and plastics in my year as I remember didn't apply like that, they limited their applications to 50 or 100 programs or something instead of casting the widest possible net. Might have made a difference, might not have. Didn't make a difference for me for residency, but it sure did for fellowship. This is really only applicable to competitive fields though - you'd be able to buy a nice new car if you did that for family medicine or internal medicine or pediatrics or what have you.

    No idea what the step average was.
     
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  15. sean80439

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    This year it was 223 I think.

    So I was pretty dead set on staying in the US until I finished MS3. I am almost definitely going to go the expat route and return to Australia permanently. I fortunately already have a family that is supportive and wishes to return too. Most don't return - usually only a few per year and that's because many of the people really want to practice in the US. It really comes down to how you want to live your life and where you want to work.
     
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  17. mcat_taker

    mcat_taker MS III

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    What made you change your mind?
     
  18. mcat_taker

    mcat_taker MS III

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    Granted @Rhandhali has insight I don't have as they are a resident already and I'm just a 3rd year at Ochsner but its important to remember that each year the class size has increased and that each year there are more UQO grads in the workforce able to vouch for the program by the work they do in residency and beyond. We've only had one 90+? person match last year which was the first "big" class. In a few months we will get another big class matching. You have to remember the program started with like 7 grads or something then went to 30 or so for a few years and now there are 100-120 of us with steadily increasing admissions profiles each year. During our orientation, the faculty basically said they have a lot of contacts throughout the U.S. and will do their utmost to help us if we are deserving of it. i.e. do well on rotations and get all your steps done. Our head of school said that while step 1 is still the most important metric for which fields you can get into, everyone who passed all the steps matched into something and that their contacts around the country often keep UQO residency applications out of the "IMG pile" as a courtesy to our faculty. There are a number of students in my class with 240+ step 1 scores who I am sure will have their pick of residencies. Do well on that test and doors will open. Each year that goes by will only help. Look at the match lists to date.
     
  19. DrNwams!

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    @Rhandhali contributions are very insightful - thank you.
    My biggest draw to UQO is having a pseudo home residency program.
    From looking at residency threads, it looks like 260 step 1 is the new 240s , seeing people with high step scores with little to no interview is scary. But i was of the opinion that going the uqo route might actually give you a leg up in Louisiana
    How does tulane and the LSU programs view UQO. I'll hope favorably. I hope that the partnership btw ochsner and uq are well received - atleast acknowledged by these neighboring programs.
    Well if uqo match rates are this impressive with step 1 average of 223, seem like they a truly getting special treatments.
    I do not know what step scores are competitive for some programs, but i would not berate ochsners competitive specialties from discriminating against uqo if the step scores are not competitive in todays market
    If you lot are saying with a 250 step 1, 250 step 2, a UQO graduate than ranks ochsner number 1 might not match urology, ortho, sugery.. Then there is a big big big problem...
    Surely you worked with some of these folks in that 2 years duration @ NOLA..
    Am English, and the reason UQO appeals to me, is their pseudo home residency and obviously me not having strong ug grades - but if the ochsner 2 years influence is shaky in some sense, how is this program better than Ireland atlantic bridge..
    I still fancy UQO
     
    #17 DrNwams!, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  20. sean80439

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    Med Rugby calls me back.
     
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  21. Rhandhali

    Rhandhali UQ-Ochsner Alumnus

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    You don't spend any time at LSU or Tulane. You might work with some faculty from there but that's only if they happen to be at Ochsner. However medicine like many things in Louisiana is incredibly incestuous and inbred. The staff you work with almost certainly worked or went to school with someone at one of the other hospitals around here. That plus the Ochsner name does carry some weight in the Gulf South at least. That being said there was in my year a good deal of animosity between LSU, Tulane and UQ-O because the students from LSU and Tulane were effectively displaced at Ochsner to make room for UQ-O students. One of the rumors is that the reason the program exists was because Ochsner wanted to buy Tulane's medical school from them, straight up, and Tulane wouldn't sell so UQ-O is born.

    However, a few people have gotten spots at LSU and Tulane programs. 19 of last year's people matched in Louisiana and of those most ended up in Ochsner Internal Medicine as prelims or categoricals, but you'll notice most people matched outside of Louisiana. If you are hellbent on staying in Louisiana you are probably better off with UQO than with any other overseas program.

    And yes, In my year someone with 250s on both step 1 and 2 and research whom I know ranked Ochsner Ortho number one did not get the job and had to scramble. That being said it looks like someone from UQO matched their in 2016. Also the relationship with Urology is soured - the one person they took quit/was driven out (edit - they were NOT fired) so I don't think they'll be taking anyone from UQO again anytime soon which is just as well because it's a pretty malignant program with a psychotic dingus as program director. The record with general surgery you will see still stands - just one in 2015 and the program director has a strong and open bias against foreign medical graduates. Again, UQO has ZERO hard influence on any of the programs and their soft influence is pretty limited. These are completely independent entities, separate from the medical school that make their own decisions regarding candidates.

    I know nothing about the Ireland Atlantic bridge so I cannot comment. If you want to be in the US I would imagine that UQ-O would be a better option for you just to practice medicine in the US. Whether or not you can get a competitive specialty is entirely up to you. It's going to be based on how well you do on step 1, step 2 and who you can get to back your play in terms of letters of recommendations and phone calls.
     
    #19 Rhandhali, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  22. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    According to the former Head of UQ at the time (Wilkinson), Ochsner went to Tulane seeking to form a formal partnership -- which I realize does lie on a continuum -- and when rejected went to UQ, which it had heard was at the time open/desiring to 'spreading out'. UQ thought it out of the blue as it had not solicited such, but Wilko jumped at the opportunity, realizing the potential (he was briefly attempting to brand UQ Australia's 'world medical school', or 'medical school for the world' or some such, I forget the exact wording, while also keenly aware of the longterm problems of having hundreds of int'l students graduate from the Australian system).

    Also, just in response to an earlier post I saw talking about the separation of Ochsner academic side from residency selection, note that at the top level there is (or used to be) at least a tacit agreement between them -- when I met the Head of Ochsner (or whatever hit title was) in Brisbane just before the first cohort, I asked him how he could be sure that the program would be successful. He raised his brows and said, 'Ochsner has the largest residency program in the south'. It was clear to me what he meant by that. This was the genius of the program IMO.
     
    #20 pitman, Jan 24, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  23. DrNwams!

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    So why aren't uqo student getting competitive residencies at ochsner.
    1 sugery, 1 urology (who someone pointed out was fired)
    1 ortho.
    Can someone confirm that this isn't just a bias to uqo img status, but because the students steps aren't competitive.
    @Rhandhali is pointing to the former.
    I also heard that 9 students were interviewed for gen sugery which is nice.
     
  24. DrNwams!

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    Out of curiousity, the person with 250s that had to scramble. What did they eventually match into
     
  25. sean80439

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    The urology resident wasn’t fired. We still have a 90+% match rate overall. There is always going to be bias amongst individuals that you will have to overcome when interviewing. Medicine is incestuous and people like what they know. A program invests a significant amount of resources in each resident so some are picky and weird about some things. This was even true of DOs interviewing at ACGME programs prior to their merge.
     
  26. johnnyboy1366

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    I graduated a year after @Rhandhali. Contrary to him I choose this program over a few well respected DO programs - but to each his own there is really no right answer.

    It is possible to match into competitive programs but exceedingly difficult. You need strong step scores, strong research, strong letters and essentially can never mess up. At US med schools it is typical for competitive specialties [which are usually very small - hence the competitiveness] to take 1-2 to of their own each year. It appears Ochsner is on the path of taking 1 every 2-3 years but time will tell. So yes it is possible to get a 250/250 and rank ochsner #1 and not match - just as 90% of the people that interview have 250/250 and do not match into these programs.

    Off the top of my head UQO in my year matched one into ochsner ortho, one into ochnser opthal, someone else matched ENT albeit after failing to match and doing research. We also had matches at top 20-30 programs into anesthesia, medicine and neuro

    The class below had matches outside of ochsner in ortho, vascular, neurosurg and a few very strong matches in medicine and EM. It is probably as hard or harder to match into Penn Med or UColorado EM than ortho/neurosurg/vascular so that is impressive as well.

    TLDR: If you do not want to close doors, retake your MCAT and get into USMD. Otherwise go into this program with an open mind and be prepared with having to sacrifice the dream specialty for being a practicing physician.
     
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  27. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    Why would helping to guarantee high placement stats (90+%) by a fledgling program equate to placement in competitive residencies there? It doesn't. Think it through.
     
  28. Rhandhali

    Rhandhali UQ-Ochsner Alumnus

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    One got plastics one got derm, after doing surgery and medicine prelims that they scrambled into. Ochsner doesn't have a dermatology program either but some LSU or Tulane residents (I never bothered to learn to tell them apart) rotate through. Why the ortho person didn't get ortho here nobody who wasn't in that room when they made that rank list will ever know. Maybe the ortho program wanted to assert their independence and show to UQ-Ochsner that they will make their own decisions and ranked the student, but not to match just to see what happens when the dust settles. Maybe there were better candidates that the program liked better. Maybe they didn't like the color tie that student wore to the interview that day. There is no way of knowing how these decisions are arrived at as they all happen behind closed doors with nobody outside of those doors ever knowing what happened.

    It sounds like you're looking for guarantees that you will get a job in a competitive field because of this program. That is not and will never be the case at any medical school US based or not. There is no easy way into these specialties even for US graduates. You are going to be at some degree of disadvantage as a foreign trained physician if you go into these programs. It is going to be even harder, maybe even impossible, if you have visa issues or don't have a green card. The fields we're talking about can pick and choose who they want based on whatever criteria they want - there are far more applicants than available positions. Throw a rock into a room of applicants for any of these fields and it'll bounce off of a dozen people with a 260 on step 1, good research and top whatever percentile you care to choose of their class.

    Enter into this room the foreign trained medical graduate who has the numbers, but so does everyone else. They have good letters, but so does everyone else. They might have a proven track record, but so does everyone else. They're in the top 5-10% of their class but so is everyone else. Some programs will overlook being an FMG, some may consider it to be a dealbreaker and feed their application right into the shredder if it ever gets as far as being actually printed out. They are in a position where if they refuse to even consider FMGs they lose absolutely nothing. They're going to fill their positions with very highly qualified candidates which are literally lined up around the block no matter what.

    You can get into competitive fields through this program - that is demonstrated in the matches of years past. Just being an Ochsner student is no guarantee that you're going to get any kind of special treatment or official leg-up over other candidates even for in house programs and this is especially true of competitive fields where the programs have the luxury of picking and choosing from among the best applicants out there.

    These fields are not out of reach of UQ-Ochsner grads. You'll still need to have phenomenal board scores. You'll still need research. The UQ-Ochsner program will facilitate these goals but it is on your own shoulders to do the work to meet the requirements to be a competitive candidate, you will need to be willing to sweat bleed and suffer. Even then you will still have the burden of being an FMG which some places will overlook, some places won't. Even then there is always a chance that things just don't work out and this is true even of US medical graduates.

    If you are hardcore set on doing something competitive I would give some consideration towards trying again for a US based medical school as you will have one less disadvantage to have to overcome. You will still need to have incredible board scores and perform exceptionally well throughout your time there.
     
    #26 Rhandhali, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
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  29. Domperidone

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    The most balanced and insightful responses to be gotten are from the UQO alum (as above) who can offer a break down of the program, the match and more importantly the stories behind the match statistics. There's always so much more to the stats than the bare minimum that is published. Making that observation for premeds.

    This is me as an observer, a trad alum who lives and works in Australia.

    I've close friends in UQO who matched and they share that same perspective as above.

    We had 'classmates' who matched successfully, those who matched but not in their ideal specialty, also those who SOAP'd, matched a year later on reapplying or dropped out/failed out. They don't feel like statistics or numbers when they were people we knew over 4 yrs. Watched their trajectories.

    Students and premed have a tendency to solely look at the numbers at almost face value unaware of what occurred behind them. For every stat there is a story as highlighted above. I make this observation because I want you guys (as premeds and students) to be aware of this when you do that. Take stats with a grain of salt.

    With current UQO students, esp 2nd and 3rd yrs, be aware of how defensive you come across sometimes. Because it can be interpreted in different ways - either (a) you are proud of your program and what UQO reassures you of, or (b) it suggests a degree of insecurity and need to defend your choice and school reputation to the rest of the world as a result. And this happens every yr, even when I was a student, the 2nd yrs and newly minted 3rd yrs often had either the weight of the world on their shoulders or a lot to say. Despite barely having experienced clinical rotations stateside. There is much to be proud of yes, but try to also see how you may come across while you are a student that has yet to participate in any match. The more aggressive you are about it the more it risks being counterproductive to your actual intent as some will start to question why you feel almost desperately strong about your stance.

    I would be hesitant at offering advice to premeds on the match if I was a current student under any circumstance. I've seen you guys as students call out premeds for giving advice on getting into med school. It's also like me giving advice on UQO as a UQ trad alum - would you guys take what I say as seriously? I do it if I have to but I'm offering advice on second hand experience at best or merely looking up stats on meded path. But I'm aware of this.
    It's a responsibility I prefer not to have. And you are so to speak, taking responsibility over the lives of premeds when you do this. I know I can't follow through on what I say when there's more in-depth questions. I will crumble because I know how much I don't know, without the weight of relevant experience.

    Pitman, Wilko is now two Deans ago. Similarly the original head of UQO is long gone.
    I'm not sure it's worth neccesarily bringing it up when neither of us may be familiar with current admin or their aims in a constantly changing job climate. To add - UQO had wanted to start its own med school or a local partnership. It was blocked by the other American med schools, and so it created this sorta offshore partnership with an Australian school. It was done post Katrina, at a time of need as Ochsner was expanding.
     
    #27 Domperidone, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  30. mcat_taker

    mcat_taker MS III

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    This is a dumb question. Look at the overall match statistics and not just who matched at Ochsner. People matched Rads, Anesthesia, Surgery, surgical specialties, Medicine at Ivies, and EM all over which is arguably more impressive than matching at just your school's institution where you spent the last 2 years. Maybe those students preferred other programs and they successfully matched closer to home or in a region they preferred. There are so many factors, but the question you should be asking is what did they match into and how many students did it, not whether they did so at Ochsner. No question being an IMG is a disadvantage, but a lot of what you match into is totally up to you: your studying, your board scores, your research, your letters etc. UQO is definitely not looked upon like another Caribbean school by program directors and from what I've heard, spending 2 years in Australia is interesting in interviews with program directors and gives you something to talk about that no one else has. It definitely will set you apart. You have an opportunity here, its up to you to take full advantage. You won't be gifted a residency. In orientation our dean said "you weren't born to become a plastic surgeon or ophthalmologist" that you aren't just entitled to it just because thats all you ever wanted to do since you were 3 years old lol. You mention Urology, Ortho and not matching with a 250/250. Urology and Ortho are crazy competitive for everyone, you could have those scores and not match from a U.S. school. There is no guarantee for stuff like that just because you got x score no matter what school you graduate from.

    @Domperidone I understand your point about not offering advice about matters you haven't experienced yet, and that think we are sometimes being overly positive to future students, i.e. the match but bashing one's school and its reputation on a faceless internet forum like some people do here from time to time is counterproductive as well. Current students and alumni are representatives of the school and the world's opinion of where one graduated from matters, being overly negative doesn't help to cultivate a good culture and strong face of your program to the world on the internet.
     
    #28 mcat_taker, Jan 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  31. Domperidone

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    It's not about either 'positivity' or 'negativity'. Rather, a balanced and meaningful way for premeds on a thread like this. Instead of splitting all views into black or white, those against you or with you. Why does that matter to you? The actual audience is premed and they're in a precarious way. Consider what they deserve to know than what you deserve to defend.

    Why have anything to prove on an internet forum as a student in forums predominantly used by premeds looking at school options. My point is, don't make this about you when it comes to premed threads and forums. It should be about them.

    And it's not a 'dumb question'.
    They're premed. Relax.
    Let go, it's already been meaningfully explained by the alum.
    It's okay.
     
    #29 Domperidone, Jan 25, 2018
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  32. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    I'm not sure what your point is. Historical context is important and is probably the only way to infer current policy absent far more convincing evidence to the contrary. It would be naive to believe that Ochsner does not continue to help ensure its classes are successful, that its academic and residency sides do not discuss business. Whether that now be taking a half dozen 'extra' grads or one, it will do what it believes is necessary to protect its own branding, just as it would be naive to believe that Columbia does not do similarly with Ben Gurion grads, the State of NY with Sackler grads, Cornell with Cornell Qatar, or most med programs with their closest clinical partners. It's simply inherent to the business/marketing model.
     
    #30 pitman, Jan 27, 2018
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  33. sean80439

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    The argument isn't that Ochsner doesn't work with students in good faith, it's that past successes don't imply similar future results. Just because we've had students match at certain places prior does not automatically mean that everyone will get what they want; you still have to work within the framework that you are given.
     
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  34. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    Whose 'argument'? I don't think anyone here has disputed that.
     
  35. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    Guys, I think we should give any newbies more credit here. Our contributions -- particularly our past experiences and opinions -- are not being taken as Gospel, or as *determinants* of future outcome, and I don't think anyone is claiming they should be.

    The overall question here being asked is, 'what are my chances for [any/specific/competitive] residency?'. The question is not just to us but to the OPs themselves -- ultimately they answer that question based in part on what they learn/choose to believe from others' claims backed up using various levels of evidence. It's nonetheless an inductive *process* which is inherently probablistic and subjective.

    Empirically, the history is the history, the (historical) stats the stats, the past does not determine but informs us on expected future; the overriding business model has not changed but policies on implementation of it do, it's clear every partnership does what it can to help its own, none will simply give all or even a majority of its own grads the top -- let alone bottom -- placements, some help its own more than others, others have longer or otherwise stronger histories of doing so; and while these things are all relevant and factor in to an induced level of confidence in outcome and thus help to inform the ultimate decision of where to go to med school, in the end, once in med school, individual achievement and other behavior is understood to be the only factor that will be in one's control that will improve the odds of getting a coveted residency spot.

    Anyone expecting assurances beyond (self) calculated inductively reasoned probabilities based on past behavior (outcomes) and self-awareness would be deluded and IMO isn't intellectually worthy of going to med school or of my respect in the first place. But do try to understand what each other is claiming, and where there is true disagreement, stick to the point of contention -- over what was thought to have been claimed -- rather than presuming contradiction where there may not be any and throwing out strawman arguments.

    Maybe I'm being overly sensitive here, with my interest in maintaining a useful decorum (not to be confused with agreement) among us and not seeing this forum degenerate into the particularly unhelpful troll cave it used to be. But I guess what I'm saying is that there is a difference between clearly *qualifying* what others are saying here, separating stated opinion from the facts, and arguing with each other's specific (perceived) claims. Blurring those lines leads to an escalation in the breakdown of decorum (which I too admittedly get sucked into, turning me into a troll-hunter) and leads ultimately to a reluctance to put out any quasi-controversial assertion, leading either to a hole allowing a dominent, ideological narrative/groupspeak to take over through bullying tactics, like at pagngdr, or absent such dominance, to chaos.

    Feel free to tell me to 'smoke another', if worded respectfully. Ta.
     
    #33 pitman, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  36. sean80439

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    It had become a theme honestly in that we (as in posters in this subforum including me) refer to previous match results in terms of competitive matches as indicative that those successes will equal a successful match for you. The match rate is high and that is multifactorial, and you are likely to match, or if you choose to you can head back to Australia at the end of your 4 years as long as you put in the work. It's just important to keep perspective to both pre-meds and current students.
     
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  37. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    Nah. People here understand that no one's claiming past success equals future, and there are constant reminders here of that. By all means, go ahead and continue to qualify if you feel it necessary, but don't think you're 'correcting' anyone (even yourself, by what I've seen) by doing so.
     
    #35 pitman, Jan 28, 2018
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  38. Domperidone

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    agreeing with Sean.
    historical context can contribute but like any policies are not set in stone etc.
    i.e. Sunshine Coast clinical was sold to Griffith. will no longer take uq students if not already in effect it will be. Ipswich yrs 1 and 2 is no longer a thing either and that was abrupt.

    i could say the same for admin or med workforce at public hospitals.

    current leadership always has a say.
     
  39. Domperidone

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    I wish premeds were not that naive and fit under the bracket you've just described.
    fact that so many are is why I am here. ended up spending a lot of time as a rep trying to help students who were failing. not pretty.
    I personally get no benefit from being here.
    again, why i'm also a very strong advocate of the balanced comprehensive advising that the uqo alum just gave.

    take also into account that you're of nearly a different generation. far more DO schools have opened accepting applicants that would have otherwise gone offshore. also that class sizes are 550-600 in total at UQ now, they accept about anyone to uq trad if they are full fee paying. it wont be the same cohort you knew as a student.

    Addit: re: the longer post on trollcave. on that note, can we pls stop with this particular point now out of respect for OP or OPs I should say? as it is not our thread. the queries have been responded to directly. I cant see how it helps the OPs further to contemplate how we conduct debates or discussions. I really dont want this to become emotion driven either :/
     
    #37 Domperidone, Jan 30, 2018
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  40. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    I was there responding to a perceived increase in testiness in the thread, that is all. My point is that when it happens and isn't checked, it increases, and this leads to more troll-like behavior. Doesn't matter how far out I or anyone is from med.

    I'm not sure what you mean by stopping with that point, whose relevance I think I have explained -- SDN has become far more helpful over the past few years for a number of reasons, one being that newer peeps like you are level-headed and decorum has improved, and discussions about things like Ochsner outcomes in particular are more grounded empirically (the troll-like naysayers have lost cred and finally shut the f* up, similar to how those who were anti- Cornell Qatar did last decade). Which brings us back to the importance of history...

    Again, historical context is important. No one would be saying it irrelevant if Ochsner had 4 or 5 years of 60% residency placement, for example. On the contrary, they'd be saying that that is damning evidence that Ochsner doesn't have much of a policy to take care of its own!

    It does not make sense to refer to how long it's been since someone went to UQ (or Ochsner in particular, as multiple contributors have not), if there are not any particular contentious claims being made that are being contradicted by more recent particular evidence. I mean seriously, what 'has changed' since whenever that would make any of my claims -- having nothing to do with, say, Griffith or Ipswich -- invalid? It's not like anyone here has a direct knowledge of a policy change at Ochsner which contradicts earlier stated Ochsner policies that were grounded in simple common and business sense (e.g., programs helping their own to *some* extent is the *default* position, which says nothing directly about one's future chances yet does challenge the earlier unqualified view I was responding to, that Ochsner undergrad and residency training admins are 'separate' and thus are not influencing one another or both influenced by corporate higher ups).

    Any bias against historical context without example (such as a known shift in said policies) also presumes that there are no other ways than simply being a recent student/grad to have any understanding of policy, expected outcome, poor reasoning, philosophy of self, Match stats, program selection biases, marketing, CBA, trends, expected changes in medical training...which view would both be naive and presume special knowlege among them simply for being current/recent members of a vested group. As a generalization, such a claim would not be valid. OTOH if/when there are specifics that raise the issue, for how/why timeliness of graduation matters to some particular point of contention, then by all means make the specific point, not the generalization or straw man.
     
    #38 pitman, Jan 30, 2018
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  41. Domperidone

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    erm.
    I'm getting so lost now by this conversation.

    so. my point is that we don't know current policy (that said current students might which is relevant too).

    historical context is not irrelevant but has to be taken with current changes and current information. it is now a fresh admin. the dean who replaced wilko (who I knew) was very different. I've no idea what the new dean is like. it's like saying medical history or textbooks are important but so is keeping up with journals and conferences - things are dynamic. they change. my examples of Sunny coast and ipswich where to highlight that idea. that it isnt always predictable. there was much outcry at the loss of those campuses. i'm not saying the same fate awaits uqo at all, just again that things change with different administrations and budget fluctuations.

    I'm going to stop here for sake of this thread and not veering off topic. if you like, you can start a new thread and we can carry on there.
     
  42. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    Indeed, we do not know current policy. All each of us seems to 'know' (believe), or can offer, to help the OP answer (ultimately alone) his/her question is: 1) some past policies and placement anecdotes/statistics (history); 2) reason (both inductive, from perceived patterns in past behavior, and deductive); and 3) qualified opinion (in degree and confidence) on future outcome based on #1 and #2 (which I have refrained as much as possible from giving).

    We do not discard an old textbook just because we know that its contents could at any time become obsolete, since 'things change'. I welcome any knowledge pointing to changes in Ochsner's residency placement policies, or of any further qualification of my offered (albeit vague) known-from-the-past policy, which at any rate I'd think should be understood to be larger than a fleeting personality. How much weight should be given to this past policy or any related corporate patterns (or indeed, any past outcome and related patterns, such as in...residency placement stats that rely on many fleeting personalities) in our answer to the question, "[W]ill I have a good chance of getting a residency in a competitive [any?] speciality?" Who am I to determine that! By raising past policy, I clearly believe only that it has (or reasonably could have) non-zero weight, but any particular assigned weight could be relevant only to me.

    There you have it. Hume in a nutshell. And the best framework to an answer that I can offer the OP.
     
    #40 pitman, Jan 30, 2018
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  43. pitman

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    And now, an anecdote, because it, too is pertinent.

    Nearly two decades ago, Cornell was publicizing its fledgling Cornell Qatar med school (it started a couple years earlier as simply a pre-med program). The plan: two years in Qatar, and some amount (I forget, but substantial) clinical training time available in US hospitals with which Cornell had affiliation. It announced that it would accept for its medical school only applicants with the same qualifications required for the traditional Cornell Med. Like 3.7/4 GPA, MCAT 36 or around there. THIS FORUM was packed full of naysayers for several years. Everyone pretty much agreed on the most tangible (historical) facts and trends, that Match stats showed massive bias against IMGs and the trend was a gloomy one, that other overseas programs struggled to get anyone who could have gotten into a US school, that cost and distance and cultural differences would be prohibitive to many, and so on.

    Yet most additionally used those common 'facts' to conclude that Cornell would fail, that its application standards would nowhere near be met and poor residency placement would end up harming Cornell's reputation, since 'who would bother risking residency and the rest of their professional lives by spending all that money and time going to the (then much lesser-developed) sands of Qatar', and 'why would residency programs put aside their huge IMG bias for the sake of those at Qatar'?

    Sound even remotely familiar?

    The naysayers had simply ignored, or at least massively downplayed, a simple fact: that Cornell isn't a bunch of idiots, had a history of success in educational outcomes, and had a business model that it obviously (since Cornell does not scam donors) believed in. How much weight to put onto such a non-quantifiable (yet I'd argue common-sensical) point, up against the more tangible negative trends?

    It ended up that Cornell Qatar acceptance stats from the start were HIGHER than for Cornell NY, and by any look at its excellent residency placement stats, there can be no argument with the notion that Cornell and its close affiliates (either by direct and/or indirect policy of nepotism, since residency programs inherently show a bias for former clinical students) have been helping its Qatar students get placements.

    Now, how much of Cornell's (past) success has been due to tacit or overt Cornell/affiliate residency program policy, how much was the fact that Cornell had US (student) clinical training agreements in place (by policy that is inherent to med school business models), and how much was due to sheer (unexpected, even to Cornell) force of quality of the students? Who am I to quantify that. But I do 'know' that Cornell has traditionally had no issue with practicing some degree of nepotism on the intake and indirectly so on the outtake, and that Cornell's new business venture at the very least required a backup plan to help guarantee the program's overall success.

    It really makes no sense to respond to this history with, 'Ah, but you speak of the past and...things could have changed', as though that itself were a counterfactual to something being denied.
     
    #41 pitman, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  44. AspriningPsych

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    Is matching into Psychiatry pretty doable?
     
  45. CleverAdvisor

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    Psychiatry is not a competitive specialty so it should be very doable
     
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  46. Medicus!@#$

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    I graduated few years back and matched into one of the ROAD specialties.
    Years before matched rads and optho.

    IM matches specialties well also: a friend from the program matched hem onc in tje north east at an ivy
     
  47. dobviously

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    Here's my question: Suppose that these students who match Ochsner IM want to go into a fellowship after. Knowing that getting into a fellowship is mainly based on the reputation of your residency program and your performance, is Ochsner IM considered a strong program?
     
    #45 dobviously, Feb 19, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  48. sean80439

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    This has been answered already, but yes it is a large academic program at a tertiary center. People want to match here in general.
     
  49. dobviously

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    How can you be sure?
     
  50. pitman

    pitman Grasshopper

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    That's a strange followup question. Which answer are you asking whether he's sure about -- that Ochsner is large, tertiary, or popular?

    Ochsner has been one of the biggest training hospitals in the country (biggest in SE United States I believe) and prior to partnership with UQ, taught heaps of Tulane and LSU students. It is popular for training at all levels. These do not imply 'reputation for fellowship', but there really isn't a meaningful way to answer that except by word of mouth.

    Or, infer the answer from the awards that Ochsner has won as a hospital/clinical-training network:
    Outcomes & Honors | Ochsner Health System
     
  51. Domperidone

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    Oh goodness.
    If you're not feeling comfortable or sure, it's okay to look into further or just not sign up for it.

    Do you know what specialties you wish to go into yet? (It's okay if you don't know, it's early days yet).

    This is at the end of the day an internet forum of anonymous users, although it is meant to be a professional one.
    So, the other things you can try is shadow as a premed (which is expected anyway) and then ask the people you shadow what their thoughts are. The actual specialties in the fields you're interested in. While Ochsner is a tertiary center, like all institutions, like any other hospital, it will have some strong suits and 'newer' ones. The neurology dept/program is relatively new and developing. So it depends on what you're after.

    Get some mentoring from people in real life. Everyone will likely have a different opinion, but the hope is that you get some further information for yourself. You could even try to shadow people at Ochsner, and ask what they think - what do the SubI students, residents and attendings think in terms of long term goals like fellowships.
     
  52. dobviously

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    Thank you for your response. I really appreciate you taking the time. I was just confused because there isn't a list of ochsner IM residents fellowship placements anywhere online.

    Does anyone know if ochsner has plans to set up an EM residency with all of the new development they're doing?
     

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