UQ Ochsner vs. DO Schools

[km12]

I was accepted into the UQ Ochsner 2019 cohort, and I have a few interviews for DO schools in Arizona and Nevada coming up. I'm having a hard time deciding which program I want to attend next year. I know interviews don't guarantee acceptances, and I'm still planning on interviewing at the DO schools, but I keep going back and forth and would like to get some second opinions.

UQ Ochsner (2 years at the University of Queensland in Australia and 2 years in New Orleans, Louisiana)
Pros

• MD program at a reputable international university
• global medical education can be beneficial
• Ochsner Medical Center is one of the largest, if not the largest, providers in the South
• I would get to live abroad for 2 years
• more diversity in Louisiana, than Arizona or Nevada (both of which have similar demographics to California)

Cons

• I will graduate as an IMG (international medical graduate)
• IMG status might make it harder to secure competitive residency (although the match results for the past couple of years have been great)

DO Schools
Pros

• US degree might be "ranked" higher than an IMG MD degree
• the schools where I'm interviewing are well known schools
• I would be near my family and friends

Cons

• DO degree might make it harder to secure competitive MD residencies
• I'll have to take both the USMLE and COMLEX if I want to apply for MD residencies
• possible stigma of being a DO

I would appreciate any comments. Thank you in advance!

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[libertyyne]

what are you trying to do specialty wise?

 

[km12]

what are you trying to do specialty wise?

I'm interested in OBGYN, Anesthesiology, or Orthopedics.

 

[FreeRadicals]

What are your stats? cGPA, sGPA, MCAT? Anything else we should know?

 

[whatbout2morrow]

From Main Match NRMP data last cycle, 83% of osteopathic applicants matched vs 53% of USIMGs. When counting both ACGME and AOA matches, over 99% of osteopathic seniors end up in a residency. AOA residencies will all be ACGME accredited by the time you graduate.

I'd stick DO and do an international elective or two in 4th year to satisfy your desire to live abroad.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Eh my understanding is that UQ Oschner isn't really the same as graduating from other foreign schools. I would ask lots of questions, they may actually be better than a DO school. Their match rates, and subsequent match lists look way more like a low tier USMD school than a DO school.

 

[libertyyne]

Eh my understanding is that UQ Oschner isn't really the same as graduating from other foreign schools. I would ask lots of questions, they may actually be better than a DO school. Their match rates, and subsequent match lists look way more like a low tier USMD school than a DO school.

Yeah, I dont know what the attrition rates look like, but their match list looks decent considering they consistently place in Ortho and other competitive specialities. Maybe the wise @gonnif can weigh in here.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah, I dont know what the attrition rates look like, but their match list looks decent considering they consistently place in Ortho and other competitive specialities. Maybe the wise @gonnif can weigh in here.

Yeah I haven't dug that much into it but it seems to me more like going to Sackler instead of the carib. I'm curious what gonnif would say too, as I'll admit I don't care enough to do my own analysis lol.

 

[km12]

QU is still an off shore school and you suffer from less opportunity, especially as it is new and less well known. However it has several things going for it over other off shore schools
1) part of a legitimate, long-standing, western research university with medical education modelled on British Commonwealth /MBBS
2) even though it is a for-profit enterprise, the MedEdPath is run and staffed by former postbacc directors and premed advisors from NYC area universities
3) Rotations are owned directly BY W health system, which are 10+ Hospitals in Louisana primarily. This is unlike other off shore schools that essentially buy rotation slots
4) it is advocated for, in part, by the Australian govt, as opposed to other off shore schools which promote themselves.
5) it is overseen by the Australian govt and is accredited by a reputable authority.

While I do not know much about the few classes it has produced and the residency placement, the above points means it has the potential to be more of a Sackler-level school.

I would like to know about attrition rate, STEP scores, initial residency applications and match rates. US MD have under 3% attrition. Lets assume weaker students go to there so another 3% is reasonable. Moving to another country (at least English speaking snd fully developed) still may lose 3% from “homesickness”. So an overall attrition rate of 10% would be reasonable. Below 6-7% would be good.

The UQ Ochsner website states that there has been an average attrition rate of 2% since it started participating in the match in 2013.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

The UQ Ochsner website states that there has been an average attrition rate of 2% since it started participating in the match in 2013.

About the UQ-Ochsner Program | Ochsner Medical Student Association

From this site, it mentions that the class of 2016 hit the class size cap of 120.

Fourth Class of Ochsner Clinical School Graduates Participate in Match Day | Ochsner Online Newsroom

55 students entered the 2016 match.

I'm guessing that this means there are a) folks who decide to take a research year, b) people who attend the UQ-Ochsner program who don't intend to practice in the US, and then their 2% attrition. I'd clarify these things with them directly.

I am convinced that UQ-Ochsner is probably a much better option than Carib schools. But at the end of the day, if orthopedic surgery was my goal, I personally would be more strongly influenced by the fact that there are currently 120 DO orthopedic surgery interns (allopathic + osteopathic, more if you count the military) vs 10 USIMG orthopedic surgery interns (allopathic only - including the one OQ-Ochsner grad).

 

[libertyyne]

About the UQ-Ochsner Program | Ochsner Medical Student Association

From this site, it mentions that the class of 2016 hit the class size cap of 120.

Fourth Class of Ochsner Clinical School Graduates Participate in Match Day | Ochsner Online Newsroom

55 students entered the 2016 match.

I'm guessing that this means there are a) folks who decide to take a research year, b) people who attend the UQ-Ochsner program who don't intend to practice in the US, and then their 2% attrition. I'd clarify these things with them directly.

I am convinced that UQ-Ochsner is probably a much better option than Carib schools. But at the end of the day, if orthopedic surgery was my goal, I personally would be more strongly influenced by the fact that there are currently 120 DO orthopedic surgery interns (allopathic + osteopathic, more if you count the military) vs 10 USIMG orthopedic surgery interns (allopathic only - including the one OQ-Ochsner grad).

Only 4 DO's matched ACGME out of the 17 that applied. Yes there are AOA positions, but who knows what will happen after the merger is complete.


I do agree though , that OP should be weary of numbers reported by the school and probably contact a current upperclassman to really get the scoop on attrition.

 

[libertyyne]

Obviously compared to IMGS where 9/21 matched. The odds either way dont look great. Frankly the odds are not great for USMD's either.

 

[km12]

View attachment 238841
View attachment 238842
Only 4 DO's matched ACGME out of the 17 that applied. Yes there are AOA positions, but who knows what will happen after the merger is complete.


I do agree though , that OP should be weary of numbers reported by the school and probably contact a current upperclassman to really get the scoop on attrition.

How will the merger affect future MD and DO students?

 

[libertyyne]

How will the merger affect future MD and DO students?

If i had a magic ball, i would buy a lottery ticket. All analysis points to that the TOP of the pool and the Bottom of the pool will become more competitive. But who knows? You are not in an excellent position for ortho, if possible you should get into a US MD school if that is really what you want to do. A few years prior to matriculation is better than spending the rest of your life in a specialty you did not want. If you want OB or Anesthesia those are much more manageable goals with the current acceptances you do hold.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

View attachment 238841
View attachment 238842
Only 4 DO's matched ACGME out of the 17 that applied. Yes there are AOA positions, but who knows what will happen after the merger is complete.

I'd be pretty impressed if 116 AOA spots disappeared overnight.

Also, you forgot a couple of tables to consider:

132 USMD orthopaedic surgery applicants did not match, despite having a mean Step 1 of 240 and Step 2 of 246. From the table you posted, unmatched USIMG orthopaedic surgery applicants had a mean Step 1 & Step 2 of 241. On a side note, I am very impressed by the mean 37.1 publications of matched USIMGs and 19.8 of unmatched USIMGs, as these numbers are both greater than the 11.5 of matched USMD applicants.

The average USMD who matches any specialty has a Step 1 score of 233 and Step 2 score of 246. The average USIMG who matches any specialty has a Step 1 score of 222, and Step 2 score of 232.

At the end of the day, matching orthopedic surgery is difficult for any student (USMD, DO or USIMG). Something to keep in mind is that the 66% match rate for USIMGs does not account for the many along the way who didn't end up applying ortho because they didn't feel they were competitive enough due to various factors along the way in medical school (Steps, grades, etc).

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Only 4 DO's matched ACGME out of the 17 that applied. Yes there are AOA positions, but who knows what will happen after the merger is complete.

The 17 is an inflated number due to factors I’ve outlined in other places (I can discuss it if you want). The true number of DOs who actually tried to match ACGME ortho is either 7-8, and half of them matched. Still not great, or even good, but not absolutely terrible.

 

[km12]

Update: I've been accepted to AZCOM, and I have other interviews scheduled next month.

I'm grateful that I even have options; However, I'm still have difficulty with this decision. I know that no one can tell me what to do, and that choosing to graduate with an MD or DO will have to be a personal decision. I would just like to make an informed decision. I've been reading a ton of information on the 2020 merger, but it seems like the general consensus is that both DOs and IMGs will get the short end of the stick. I just don't know which one will place me in a better position when it comes time to apply for residency in 4 years. I'm not entirely sure what I want to do specialty wise, but I'm interested in OB/GYN, orthopedics, pediatrics, and anesthesia at this moment. I can change my mind once I start school, so I would like to go to the school where I will have the most options available to me.

 

[watermelon master]

so I would like to go to the school where I will have the most options available to me.

Choose the DO school.