Urgernt Scramble Contract

[computer123]

Hello

I scrambled into a position early the first day. got a letter confirmation the next. now their telling me that they are not going to give me the postion( categorical). what do i do....they just screwed me big time.....nrmp says they have no say on what goes in the scramble.

please help me. on what to do or what would you do. i am going to the program on monday...i hope they did not give the spot away....according to them they already have an applicant. I am a img but us citizen

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Top Gun]

Hello

I scrambled into a position early the first day. got a letter confirmation the next. now their telling me that they are not going to give me the postion( categorical). what do i do....they just screwed me big time.....nrmp says they have no say on what goes in the scramble.

please help me. on what to do or what would you do. i am going to the program on monday...i hope they did not give the spot away....according to them they already have an applicant. I am a img but us citizen

Unless you have a written contract, signed by the PD, the position that you scrambled into is not guaranteed. And a letter confirmation is not the same thing as a contract. Sorry that they screwed you over. Keep looking though. There may be a few unfilled positions left over after the scramble. If that doesn't work, then do some things to strengthen your credentials, including an externship or research experience, and get stellar letters of recommendation. And next year, reapply to a wide range of programs.

 

[Blade28]

When you say "letter confirmation," was this a contract for you to sign?

Usually when you verbally agree to a Scramble position, the program will fax you a contract and you'll sign it and fax it back - did this not happen?

 

[NuMD97]

Unfortunately, they were using you as their safety. What most likely happened was as soon as they sent you their Letter Of Confirmation, an AMG walked in the door, and they grabbed him/her.

I would suggest you not waste your time going in to see the program. Your position is now filled. Of that I am certain. And nothing will be gained with a personal confrontation. Is what they did legal? Yes, because no formal contract was signed by both parties. Is it immoral? Of course.

Concentrate on getting another position elsewhere, and keep in mind there will be spots opening up in late June as well.

Good luck!

Nu

 

[computer123]

well they called and said i have the spot and then sent an email saying congrats we'll send you the contract and papers and hope to see you at our program....they said the contract will be sent but this is your confirmation

what bothers me is that i had other offers but refused since i thought i was confirmed. i thought it would be wrong to accept multiple offers and only choose one.....

as for scrambling now- all emals bounce and all voice mails are filled. and many programs- have an automated message saying programs are filled....

some want applications only thru eras...how can i send them now

its really upsetting because my family and friends know i have a spot....now i cant even look at them let alone tell anyone....especially after we celebrated

thanks for all yuor support

 

[computer123]

for the spots in late june....how do i know their available? which hospitals

 

[Blade28]

Are you still calling programs with unfilled spots, and faxing/sending your information via ERAS? (That is, still treating today as a Scramble period?)

 

[computer123]

thanks for all your support

i finally accepted the facts....there is nothing i can do except move on

as for scrambling for positions i have stopped- majority of the programs are filled... emails bounce, and their voice mails are filled.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Not that it would matter, but I would do my best to have a telephone conversation with the chairmen and PD stating the facts and allow them to understand it was sad what they did to your situation; I would certainly remind them multiple times what professionalism is and what being a professional is about.

It will not make anything different; I know I would at least feel better if I had been in your position and made that phone call. Remain professional, courteous, and dont start hollaring.

I would consider it 'reminding those on top about us little people'. If you want to go one step further (and cross the line) record it and place it on YouTube. Sure to gain popularity on SDN.

We all know there are two sides to every story, but who knows..

Good luck, your situation sucks... no other way to put it.

 

[Top Gun]

Not that it would matter, but I would do my best to have a telephone conversation with the chairmen and PD stating the facts and allow them to understand it was sad what they did to your situation; I would certainly remind them multiple times what professionalism is and what being a professional is about.

It will not make anything different; I know I would at least feel better if I had been in your position and made that phone call. Remain professional, courteous, and dont start hollaring.

I would consider it 'reminding those on top about us little people'. If you want to go one step further (and cross the line) record it and place it on YouTube. Sure to gain popularity on SDN.

We all know there are two sides to every story, but who knows..

Good luck, your situation sucks... no other way to put it.

Well, this would at least help get rid of your frustration. I doubt it will have any effect though. Residency programs have thousands of applicants each year. They're basically in the driver's seat when it comes to matching or scrambling into residency.

 

[MacGyver]

At least give us the name of this program and the name of the program director. I'd like to send some hate mail his direction.

 

[nociceptor]

i finally accepted the facts....there is nothing i can do except move on.

I TOTALLY disagree, give us the name of the program and the program director so that SDN can warn others about that program and PD.

Would you really want to go to a program that would lie to their residents??

we are all ears.

 

[Tired]

Ignore the foolish advice about trying to "screw" the program by posting their name, recording conversations, etc.

1) It will not deter anyone at all from applying.

2) You will be immediately identifiable.

3) As others with far more experience that I point out on a regular basis, PDs of different programs talk, and you don't want to be blackballed next year.

Good luck, and I'm sorry.

 

[mgdsh]

What the program has done to you is extremely !$*#ed up. Excuse the language, but there really is no moral explanation for what they've done.

Seriously, share all the details with us you can(program name/specialty, PD's name, every story detail, etc), contact all the local media in the area (and any media you can that would cover the story), and maybe even start some sort of blog post over it and get it linked on digg. You have the chance of using the viral internet to screw them 10x harder than what they've done to you.

As you've mentioned, you have documented communication that shows you should expect what they've sent to you 'act as confirmation.'

While this example isn't exactly over a residency position, its far more meaningless than what you've gone through and what was at stake. You literally had a position locked up that in some way determines the rest of your life.

Links:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/24/internet-ftw-bmw-buyer-getting-m3-thanks-to-pressure-from-web/

http://www.davidpitlyuk.com/2008/03/23/bmw-dealership-unethically-refuses-ebay-price-for-new-m3/


I encourage you do disclose as much information as you are able to, and spread the word as much as possible.

 

[Top Gun]

Seriously, share all the details with us you can(program name/specialty, PD's name, every story detail, etc), contact all the local media in the area (and any media you can that would cover the story), and maybe even start some sort of blog post over it and get it linked on digg. You have the chance of using the viral internet to screw them 10x harder than what they've done to you.

I really hope you're being sarcastic here. Yes, what the program did is &**ked up, but none of the stuff you suggest is going to help the OP in any way. All it will do is p&*s off the PD at that program, and he will end up seeing the OP as a complainer and troublemaker. The PD probably has friends and colleagues at other residency programs, and if the OP actually follows your suggestions, he/she could very well end up being blacklisted next year when reapplying for residency. Remember, the medical community is a small one. No disrespect, but what you are suggesting is highly counter-productive.

 

[Faebinder]

Agreed, the program deserves to have its reputation revealed. Foul move by a program. They know who has power.

 

[Blade28]

It's terrible that residents, as a whole, have so little power.

We need the MI-style union!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Unfortunately, the power bias between programs and residents is significantly skewed toward programs. They have you by the testicles and they know it. There is very little retribution for programs, especially during the scramble, but as others have noted, they can (and may) make life very difficult for you should you reveal their identity.

If and when you get a categorical position somewhere, then I might recommend you feel comfortable reporting them to NRMP and ACGME, as long as you have documentation to back your claims. Programs like this deserve to be punished but there is no sense in making your life hell and sending your career down the drain in doing so.

 

[yaah]

I agree that while it may be personally satisfying to post the program's name publicly so that everyone can point and laugh and complain, that would be only a temporary satisfaction and soon you would be left with the reality of that action, which would be unlikely to have a good result.

However, reporting them to the NRMP as WS said is a good step. It will be unlikely to help you, as the program likely has reasonable (or at least what would seem reasonable to observers at the NRMP), but it would get it "out there" at least so others would be less likely to be harmed in the future.

 

[HCE]

I agree that while it may be personally satisfying to post the program's name publicly so that everyone can point and laugh and complain, that would be only a temporary satisfaction and soon you would be left with the reality of that action, which would be unlikely to have a good result.

However, reporting them to the NRMP as WS said is a good step. It will be unlikely to help you, as the program likely has reasonable (or at least what would seem reasonable to observers at the NRMP), but it would get it "out there" at least so others would be less likely to be harmed in the future.

OP mentions in the original post that he/she did contact the NRMP, who advised that they have nothing to do with the Scramble. I find this to be a remarkable statement.

If I'm not mistaken, I thought the NRMP rules had a "dispute resolution" process. If I had stopped scrambling in reliance on a PD promising me a spot, and was now shut out as a result, I would be asking for a meeting with the PD and an NRMP representative for a little discush...

 

[AlternateSome1]

I may be a bit naive, but why isn't a letter of confirmation legally binding? You may not have agreed to the terms of the job, but you have agreed on the hiring for the position. If you have a signed letter from the program which states that they are hiring you, why not contact a lawyer. Anyone care to explain why this is not feasible (besides fear of retribution)?

 

[HCE]

I may be a bit naive, but why isn't a letter of confirmation legally binding? You may not have agreed to the terms of the job, but you have agreed on the hiring for the position. If you have a signed letter from the program which states that they are hiring you, why not contact a lawyer. Anyone care to explain why this is not feasible (besides fear of retribution)?

Of course anyone can bring a legal action against anyone else for any reason...not that you're guaranteed of ever winning anything. But suppose the OP did bring a legal action and was successful..what then? Do you want to do your residency at a place you sued? Don't you think the word would get out to every other program in your chosen specialty?

Getting some legal advice is different then actually suing someone, but you would want to find someone who has some knowledge of residency and match type issues..otherwise you're throwing your money away. Not sure how you would go about finding someone like this, although in the past I have seen mention on this board of attorneys who are knowledgeable in advising on the basics in residency contracts and post residency employment contracts. Might be worth a search on SDN, and a one-time consult...I just don't know what the legal remedy would be..a pot of money?

Good luck.

 

[mcfreak]

I may be a bit naive, but why isn't a letter of confirmation legally binding? You may not have agreed to the terms of the job, but you have agreed on the hiring for the position. If you have a signed letter from the program which states that they are hiring you, why not contact a lawyer. Anyone care to explain why this is not feasible (besides fear of retribution)?

Yes a confirmation letter is legally binding. I would contact a lawyer and see what your options are. You might be due loss wages for a year. Any general lawyer should be able to give you advice. And if you can find one that specializes in contract law, all the better.

 

[DarthNeurology]

What the program has done to you is extremely !$*#ed up. Excuse the language, but there really is no moral explanation for what they've done.

Seriously, share all the details with us you can(program name/specialty, PD's name, every story detail, etc), contact all the local media in the area (and any media you can that would cover the story), and maybe even start some sort of blog post over it and get it linked on digg. You have the chance of using the viral internet to screw them 10x harder than what they've done to you.

As you've mentioned, you have documented communication that shows you should expect what they've sent to you 'act as confirmation.'

While this example isn't exactly over a residency position, its far more meaningless than what you've gone through and what was at stake. You literally had a position locked up that in some way determines the rest of your life.

Links:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/24/internet-ftw-bmw-buyer-getting-m3-thanks-to-pressure-from-web/

http://www.davidpitlyuk.com/2008/03/23/bmw-dealership-unethically-refuses-ebay-price-for-new-m3/


I encourage you do disclose as much information as you are able to, and spread the word as much as possible.

You could always disclose the information after you finish residency I guess. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

[computer123]

dont mean to bring up a dead topic.

what do i do for a whole year? is it advisable to take step 3?

how do i explain this next year to pd's w/o looking really stupid?

will missing a year hurt my application?

im clueless on what to do.....still have to tell my parents, probably do it tonight

 

[Blade28]

But suppose the OP did bring a legal action and was successful..what then? Do you want to do your residency at a place you sued? Don't you think the word would get out to every other program in your chosen specialty?
...
I just don't know what the legal remedy would be..a pot of money?

You know, that's a good point, and one I hadn't considered. What would happen if you won the lawsuit? There's no way you'd want to go back to that residency program - the atmosphere would be terrible. Would you then try to find a spot somewhere else? Guaranteed word would have spread.

It reminds me of those cases where an employee is wrongly fired - in these cases, win they win their civil lawsuit, they gain a huge settlement. But then what? You can't go back to the original company. It'll likely be hard to get a job somewhere else. Are you just supposed to retire on your new nest egg?

 

[computer123]

im not sure if i have a lawsuit or not...maybe i do.
bottom line is that i went to medical school to become a physican....not to get rich or take someone ones money. but if i did sue them the most i can get is a pgy1 salary + lawyer costs. im sure they would try to offer me a postion next year but i wouldn't take it because they'll try to fire me within a week and flush my career down the toilet. im in a situation where i cant do anything.

maybe a PD can advise me what to do now? how can i make my application strong for next year? is it better to do an obervership or get a research position? should i take step 3? and most importnantly how do i explain this next year to pd's...should i say anything at all?

 

[hikeappalachia]

In aProgDir's avatar "Resistance is futile." Suing will be a huge waste of your time and money you probably won't get back. You're talking about a sizeable institution (likely) that has more money and time than you do. You didn't do anything wrong, except be honest where others aren't.

I would spend the next year studying for Step 3, rock it and apply again, you might be able to get something later. Positions open up and will continue to throughout the year. Residency programs prefer that you're done with your boards, it reduces the risk of a resident having to take time off if they don't pass. An observership is a good idea too.

If you sue, no residency program will want to touch you. Personally, I like the part about revenge being served cold (DarthNeurology). Good advice in my book.

 

[AlternateSome1]

I would assume you would sue for lost wages. This seems reasonable to me, especially since he discontinued his search for other positions when this happened. I doubt there would be any issue for the next cycle since he could just apply to other programs (there are definitely plenty of IM/FP/peds programs out there). It isn't like he would have to announce that he filed a lawsuit against another institution, and it isn't like that program will somehow blacklist him from hundreds of other programs.

 

[Blade28]

Just to be sure...OP, care to post what the confirmation letter said? You don't have to quote it verbatim or anything, just the general gist.

 

[computer123]

im not gonna sue them...im not thinking of that now. its not worth my time...if i were to sue them, then it would be after i match and am in my 3rd year of residency or close to finishing.

basically it said thank you for choosing our program and i am happy you have accepted the position. we hope to see you soon. will be sending a contract and license papers once again congratualtions.

 

[Blade28]

So it said that a contract would be arriving soon? Did you have to sign anything on the confirmation letter and send it back?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

im not gonna sue them...im not thinking of that now. its not worth my time...if i were to sue them, then it would be after i match and am in my 3rd year of residency or close to finishing.

basically it said thank you for choosing our program and i am happy you have accepted the position. we hope to see you soon. will be sending a contract and license papers once again congratualtions.

Although I'm not a lawyer, the statue of limitations will certainly be up by then.

Not that I'm suggesting that you should sue them, but it's now or never. you're certainly not going to be training there, ever. Would you really consider matching there next year? You're certainly not going to scramble there.

Would suing them "end your career"? probably not. Most PD's would be horrified by this story, and sympathize with you.

This behavior is extremely distressing. You could PM me the name of the program, but I don't see how that can help as there's not much I can do and keep you anonymous.

I should point out that there is always two sides to every story. From the story presented, it sounds like you were royally screwed. There may be something you're not telling us that would explain the program's behavior.

 

[DadofDr2B]

Yes a confirmation letter is legally binding. I would contact a lawyer and see what your options are. You might be due loss wages for a year. Any general lawyer should be able to give you advice. And if you can find one that specializes in contract law, all the better.

The facts of the case as presented could be a cause of action resulting in forced performance, money for lost wages, among other remedies. The big question is did you respond to the offer in writing or did you sit on the notification of appointment. PD's can't wait and if you failed to give them a response to their offer in writing then you failed to accept. The facts of the case would determine your case's validity.