URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[Cersei_Lannister]

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I am serious. Everyone has an unique background which should be respected. A system set up to give a boost to any individuals of a certain race is a racial discrimination. Not all African-Americans are subject to racism.

 

[LMBLBM]

 

[deleted480308]

I weep when I think about all the injustices suffered by Charlize Theron

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I weep when I think about all the injustices suffered by Charlize Theron

I do as well, especially when the spaceship crushed her in Prometheus. She only had to run in a different direction to dodge it.

 

[el_duderino]

 

[el_duderino]

Touchpause of pre-osteo, first of her name, stealer of med school seats, fighter of trolls

You're kind of my favorite now. FYI.

 

[deleted535750]

I am intrigued. Please elaborate on the repercussions of answering the underserved populations. Specifics on this created "hell" would be greatly appreciated.

I will patiently wait as you comprise your list. No rush 🙂

Again, way to exaggerate on a single part of an expression to try, and fail, to debunk an argument.

There is nothing wrong with serving underserved populations. You have put words into my mouth and are pretending I said things that I did not. Please carefully read before you post things that may appear slanderous otherwise you risk deriding the conversation.

However, I think your point may be about the negatives of affirmative action. Affirmative acton breeds contempt, as you can clearly see in this thread, through the news and public life. The negatives of affirmative action are essentially detailed in the following article, better than I could ever put them. http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97may/kennedy.htm

Though it is not SPECIFICALLY about affirmative action, it does explain the negatives that can arise when RACED BASED thinking happens. Please try and read thoroughly, this time.

 

[el_duderino]

Again, way to exaggerate on a single part of an expression to try, and fail, to debunk an argument.

You can't just throw a totally unfounded statement into an argument then whine about people "exaggerating on a single part" when they call you out on it.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

There is nothing wrong with serving underserved populations. You have put words into my mouth and are pretending I said things that I did not. Please carefully read before you post things that may appear slanderous otherwise you risk deriding the conversation.
.

And the point we're trying to make is that race is used to rectify some of these health inequalities. And in the case of recruiting a candidate that will work and identify with a specific population, using racial preference (or discrimination) has demonstrated success. Do you honestly think that the immigrant grandmother that's in the ER with abdominal pain cares that "Dr. Rivera" (who speaks her language) was admitted to med school with "lower stats?"

Yeah of course there are ppl who view this as unfair. But I highly doubt that applies to the patient that benefits from this.

 

[deleted535750]

You can't just throw a totally unfounded statement into an argument then whine about people "exaggerating on a single part" when they call you out on it.

Sorry, let me be more explicit. There are hundreds of cases throughout history where one racial/ethnic group was given preference over others. The Hutu and Tutsi are such a case and that led to genocide. Post-soviet eastern Europe ethnic conflicts arose because some ethnicities were preferred over others. Poor blacks were given more opportunity than immigrant Irish in early 1900s that lead to massive race riots. Light skin blacks were preferred over dark skin blacks during Slavery in the US that lead to a bitter hatred of light skin blacks by dark skin blacks.

Obviously, affirmative action has not lead to any of these things. Thinking there can be a racial preference though without ANY negative repercussion is NAIVE as nearly every other racial/ethnic preference in history has lead to awful things.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Sorry, let me be more explicit. There are hundreds of cases throughout history where one racial/ethnic group was given preference over others. The Hutu and Tutsi are such a case and that led to genocide. Post-soviet eastern Europe ethnic conflicts arose because some ethnicities were preferred over others. Poor blacks were given more opportunity than immigrant Irish in early 1900s that lead to massive race riots. Light skin blacks were preferred over dark skin blacks during Slavery in the US that lead to a bitter hatred of light skin blacks by dark skin blacks.

Obviously, affirmative action has not lead to any of these things. Thinking there can be a racial preference though without ANY negative repercussion is NAIVE as nearly every other racial/ethnic preference in history has lead to awful things.

Riots, sectarian violence, and genocide have nothing to do with med school admissions. That's a definitely a "Hulk Leap."

 

[deleted535750]

Riots, sectarian violence, and genocide have nothing to do with med school admissions.

I'm not saying they will as the US has been fortunate enough to deal with outbreaks like that.

For you to think there will be NO negative repercussion is ridiculous. Especially when racial discrimination is clearly happening.

 

[el_duderino]

I'm not saying they will as the US has been fortunate enough to deal with outbreaks like that.

For you to think there will be NO negative repercussion is ridiculous. Especially when racial discrimination is clearly happening.

Give an example of what you think may be negative repercussions from giving a slight advantage to URMs in med school admissions.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I'm not saying they will as the US has been fortunate enough to deal with outbreaks like that.

For you to think there will be NO negative repercussion is ridiculous. Especially when racial discrimination is clearly happening.

If negative repercussions means that a few ppl are mad, then I'm totally fine with that. As long as patients get the care they deserve. (In fact, right now, many are upset that LeBron James didn't cramp up in last night's game).

 

[WhittyPsyche]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Our nation has an awful history with racial discrimination. If you honestly believe giving preference to someone because of their race will have no negative repercussions in the future, then you are sorely naive.

Also, do you honestly want to live in a system where we improve the health of the population through racism?

I didn't put any words in your mouth, I gave my interpretation of your statement. Understand the difference. Your reply still doesn't answer my question. AA creates contempt. Okay. Now get back to the question. Giving preferences to minorities and immigrants because of the likelihood that they will serve minority and immigrant populations has what repercussions that paves the way to hell?

Even with your side step to AA and not this very specific reason for admission preferences. Your "hell" is that there will be contempt from the majority to the minority? There already exists racism, stereotyping, amongst other great evils. But somehow the contempt it could give rise to is the greatest evil of all?

To use touchpause's example. Does it also breed hate towards the blonde, white chick with life experiences different from the cookie cutter applicant when she gets in with significantly less than average stats?

I wouldn't be surprised that this "contempt" is rooted in a different type of hate. I don't think we see people saying they truly care about the healthcare quality for immigrants and minorities, but they have extreme contempt for the qualified applicants that were given preference in order to better serve these communities.

 

[deleted535750]

Give an example of what you think may be negative repercussions from giving a slight advantage to URMs in med school admissions.

I can't say and I imagine anyone for that matter can say what may happen with this racist policy in place. Though, I believe we've come to an agreement that it is very possible for negative things to happen with this discriminatory policy in place. After all, imagine if blacks and latinos were given a DISADVANTAGE like whites and asians are given. Surely, there would be a public uproar. The races aren't so different as you try to make them out to be. Whites and asians will be upset too.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I didn't put any words in your mouth, I gave my interpretation of your statement. Understand the difference. Your reply still doesn't answer my question. AA creates contempt. Okay. Now get back to the question. Giving preferences to minorities and immigrants because of the likelihood that they will serve minority and immigrant populations has what repercussions that paves the way to hell?

Even with your side step to AA and not this very specific reason for admission preferences. Your "hell" is that there will be contempt from the majority to the minority? There already exists racism, stereotyping, amongst other great evils. But somehow the contempt it could give rise to is the greatest evil of all?

To use touchpause's example. Does it also breed hate towards the blonde, white chick with life experiences different from the cookie cutter applicant when she gets in with significantly less than average stats?

I wouldn't be surprised that this "contempt" is rooted in a different type of hate. I don't think we see people saying they truly care about the healthcare quality for immigrants and minorities, but they have extreme contempt for the qualified applicants that were given preference in order to better serve these communities.

It's not about the patients, it's about the applicants...

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Seriously. You think the kidnapping, enslavement, torture, and oppressions of Africans were simply a race preferential issue. Same for genocide? You find these two equivalent to including racial group that address healthcare disparities?

You can quit going for the shock value, because you are failing miserably. Stop avoiding and answer the question. What are some repercussions of trying to attain proportionate representation in the healthcare system to serve said populations?

 

[deleted535750]

Seriously. You think the kidnapping, enslavement, torture, and oppressions of Africans were simply a race preferential issue. Same for genocide? You find these two equivalent to including racial group that address healthcare disparities?

You can quit going for the shock value, because you are failing miserably. Stop avoiding and answer the question. What are some repercussions of trying to attain proportionate representation in the healthcare system to serve said populations?

"Obviously, affirmative action has not lead to any of these things." So why do you keep mentioning that when I said they are NOT EQUIVALENT but follow the same pattern of preference?

And can you please stop avoiding my answer of reading http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97may/kennedy.htm
to see why racial preference/unity is bad. Again, I NEVER said serving said population is a bad thing. It is what is desirable. The method of achieving that is what's wrong.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I can't say and I imagine anyone for that matter can say what may happen with this racist policy in place. Though, I believe we've come to an agreement that it is very possible for negative things to happen with this discriminatory policy in place. After all, imagine if blacks and latinos were given a DISADVANTAGE like whites and asians are given. Surely, there would be a public uproar. The races aren't so different as you try to make them out to be. Whites and asians will be upset too.

The uproar if blacks and Latinos, and native Americans and LGBT, and other represented groups in this case would be because they are ALREADY suffering the consequences of being the minority in this society. They are the ones suffering so yes it would cause a public uproar... Do you understand why?

 

[WhittyPsyche]

"Obviously, affirmative action has not lead to any of these things." So why do you keep mentioning that when I said they are NOT EQUIVALENT but follow the same pattern of preference?

And can you please stop avoiding my answer of reading http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97may/kennedy.htm
to see why racial preference/unity is bad. Again, I NEVER said serving said population is a bad thing. It is what is desirable. The method of achieving that is what's wrong.

I'm not avoiding your answer. It's simply an insufficient answer. An opinion piece against racial unity does not answer my question- Specific repercussions to the admissions process. But you have already pointed out to another poster that you have no answers to this question. It would be best to not call anyone naive for not knowing what repercussions would result if you can't identify any repercussions specific to this situation to begin with.

Edit: what would be an acceptable method of addressing the healthcare disparities besides promoting the training of doctors that patients can identify with and will likely give better care to minority and immigrant populations? The problem is that there aren't enough doctors to serve the communities in this way, so increasing the numbers are wrong though they are well qualified to.

What would be better, wait this isn't good to begin with, so what would be "correct"?

 

[deleted535750]

I'm not avoiding your answer. It's simply an insufficient answer. An opinion piece against racial unity does not answer my question- Specific repercussions to the admissions process. But you have already pointed out to another poster that you have no answers to this question. It would be best to not call anyone naive for not knowing what repercussions would result if you can't identify any repercussions specific to this situation to begin with.

Fair enough. Can we agree that thinking there would be no repercussions to having a racial preference system would be foolhardy, considering such systems have lead to horrible events in the past?

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Fair enough. Can we agree that thinking there would be no repercussions to having a racial preference system would be foolhardy, considering such systems have lead to horrible events in the past?

There are no equivalencies in this situation to slavery, oppression, and genocide (your quoted past events). So, no I cannot agree. I see a threshold of predicted success, I see qualified applicants, with the merit and ECs of race, experience ( adversity and the like), culture, language, and identity, that meets the need of patient populations that are in extreme need of better primary care and trust in the healthcare system. That in itself is a good intention with proven positive results. Simply because it makes you or others angry is not a repercussion of worthy credit. So the question is what are the real repercussions to the patients and healthcare system that results from this? Hurt feelings won't do it, plenty applicants have hurt feelings of all kinds. The only priority is the proper care of all patient populations.

 

[EMDO2018]

Scary thing is, a lot of people like "littlepuddle" actually get into med school.

 

[Aerus]

The problem is people who justify it as not discrimination. Look back at this thread and see how many people try to justify it as something less than. Look, people will disagree about everything there can possibly be argued about. But when a party refuses to even acknowledge a base-line fact (discrimination), there cannot be further discussions on whether it is warranted or not. In this instance, I am okay with someone arguing for racial discrimination because there is a sound argument (improving public health). I don't agree with it, but it is a fair argument I can respect. When pro-URM policy supporters refuse to see any flaw in their stance, it is impossible to have any meaningful discussion.

Your stance is discrimination in the name of better public health = okay.
My stance is any discrimination = not okay.

And that's okay in my book as long as there is an acknowledgment that there is discrimination.

Ah okay, so your main stance isn't whether URM is good or bad but that it is discrimination and should be labelled as discrimination?

Yes, if you think about it, everything in life is discriminatory. There is never a fair system. Med schools are discriminatory towards people who study better, learn faster, and are able to juggle their time better. And a lot of these traits are linked to genetics, social environment, and the income level which we are born into.

If you have a race between a two legged man and a one legged man and the referee gives the one legged man a 5 meter head start, is that discrimination? Yes, it is, since everything nowadays can be technically labelled as discriminatory, but since things were inherently unfair already, then it can't be helped. And what if, if the two legged man won, he was more likely to use his money to buy a car while the one legged man (who can't drive) was more likely to donate money to charities that support people with physical disabilities?

 

[el_duderino]

People with that attitude are often from privileged backgrounds and have little serious education or experience in minority studies. This is of course common among med school applicants.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Scary thing is, a lot of people like "littlepuddle" actually get into med school.

A good friend of mine will be starting at JHU in the MD/PhD program. (3.95 GPA 38 MCAT and URM) hopefully the sentiments she will face from her peers in the fall will not echo the sentiments of SDN. It would be a shame... Don't think anyone can argue against her qualifications.

 

[Aerus]

This is a racist point. It assumes every black person or LGBT person has had the same exact experiences as each other person in their group. That because someone of one racial/sexual group has one experience, all other people in that group must have had similar experiences. That is STEREOTYPING. That method of thinking is the SAME as seeing a black person eating watermelon and thinking all black people love watermelon. You are ignoring the individual and applying those ideas to an ENTIRE group, that is labeling. Assuming blacks have had it harder, which I'm not saying they have or have not, and ignoring the individual experience of someone is attributing qualities to a race, that is stereotyping and racist.

You don't understand how discrimination affects the development of a person at all, do you? Yes, every black person faces racial discrimination. Their experiences might not all be the same, but they ALL face discrimination, since our society is discriminatory and they live in it. Being rich and living in a wealthy neighborhood does not exclude them from feeling the effects of racism.

 

[deleted535750]

Scary thing is, a lot of people like "littlepuddle" actually get into med school.

Scary thing is you don't see anything wrong with how the system works. I see the merits of including race in the admission process and the results of such a process are beneficial for the population at large. The problem isn't the results, those are good. The problem is how those results are being achieved. It's scary people who can't see both sides of the coin get into medical school.

 

[Aerus]

People with that attitude are often from privileged backgrounds and have little serious education or experience in minority studies. This is of course common among med school applicants.

Agreed.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Scary thing is you don't see anything wrong with how the system works. I see the merits of including race in the admission process and the results of such a process are beneficial for the population at large. The problem isn't the results, those are good. The problem is how those results are being achieved. It's scary people who can't see both sides of the coin get into medical school.

By this I assume you mean "people with lower stats for that school getting a "boost""? Is that it?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Ah okay, so your main stance isn't whether URM is good or bad but that it is discrimination and should be labelled as discrimination?

Yes, if you think about it, everything in life is discriminatory. There is never a fair system. Med schools are discriminatory towards people who study better, learn faster, and are able to juggle their time better. And a lot of these traits are linked to genetics, social environment, and the income level which we are born into.

If you have a race between a two legged man and a one legged man and the referee gives the one legged man a 5 meter head start, is that discrimination? Yes, it is, since everything nowadays can be technically labelled as discriminatory, but since things were inherently unfair already, then it can't be helped. And what if, if the two legged man won, he was more likely to use his money to buy a car while the one legged man (who can't drive) was more likely to donate money to charities that support people with physical disabilities?

lol doesn't matter how your present it. Discrimination is wrong in my book so my stance will be that it is wrong now matter how much you guys want to massage it. Like I said, all your reasons are sound enough, I just find them to be hypocritical if you can't even acknowledge there is discrimination.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Scary thing is you don't see anything wrong with how the system works. I see the merits of including race in the admission process and the results of such a process are beneficial for the population at large. The problem isn't the results, those are good. The problem is how those results are being achieved. It's scary people who can't see both sides of the coin get into medical school.

Hit the nail on the head. The overwhelming majority of people against these policies are against how it is being accomplished, not the end results. YES - the reality is that people are more comfortable with doctors of their own race. YES - discriminating against ORMs accomplishes this. YES - it is beneficial overall for public health. NO - we don't agree with how it is accomplished.

 

[EMDO2018]

Scary thing is you don't see anything wrong with how the system works. I see the merits of including race in the admission process and the results of such a process are beneficial for the population at large. The problem isn't the results, those are good. The problem is how those results are being achieved. It's scary people who can't see both sides of the coin get into medical school.

Let's hope you never get in then.

 

[deleted480308]

Let's just all take a deep breath...policy discussions don't need to devolve into wishing no one gets into medical school

 

[deleted535750]

Let's hope you never get in then.

Reported.

Please maintain the topic on discussion, and please read my posts carefully. Of course providing physicians to underserved communities is positive but the way it's being done is reminescent of other form of discrimination in the past. That is not healthy for building a better future.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Hit the nail on the head. The overwhelming majority of people against these policies are against how it is being accomplished, not the end results. YES - the reality is that people are more comfortable with doctors of their own race. YES - discriminating against ORMs accomplishes this. YES - it is beneficial overall for public health. NO - we don't agree with how it is accomplished.

Then how should it be accomplished?

 

[Copernicium]

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Then how should it be accomplished?

Lol I ain't never said I had a better option. Doesn't mean this is one isn't flawed.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Please maintain the topic on discussion, and please read my posts carefully. Of course providing physicians to underserved communities is positive but the way it's being done is reminescent of other form of discrimination in the past. That is not healthy for building a better future.

I still don't get this "how it's being done" thing.

If a school prefers students from rural communities because they are more likely to go back and practice in rural communities, do you care?
If a school prefers students that have shown strong interest and commitment to primary care, do you care?

Even if they take those who might be 3 points lower on their MCAT and .3 lower in GPA?

My school makes it very clear who they are looking for and who they prefer. Is that some sort of injustice?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Lol I ain't never said I had a better option. Doesn't mean this is one isn't flawed.

LOL. Are you serious?! I was expecting a detailed proposal.
Life is flooded with flaws. What's perfect?!

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

LOL. Are you serious?! I was expecting a detailed proposal.
Life is flooded with flaws. What's perfect?!

1- I don't care what you expect?
2- Yes life is full of flaws and it is especially amazing when it tilts in your favor. No biggie, you can hide behind the reasoning that giving yourself a boost in admissions is good for society.

 

[MangoPlant]

Then how should it be accomplished?

Well, instead of simply lowering the standards for a person to get in because they are black or hispanic, we could try to provide more opportunities for them to be able to reach the standards that are expected of non-URMs. For example, we could offer resources that URMs have easy access to (there are already a ton of SURP/summer undergraduate research programs that are specifically for URMs, but I digress), and we could also reform education at the lower levels so that science is much more emphasized. I can tell you from anecdotal evidence that many African American boys are under the impression that its either rapper, NBA/NFL player, or nothing (gangster, drug dealer, etc). We need programs that remove this mindset from the African American community and emphasize the importance of education. Again, I'm simply using African Americans as an example, not trying to single out any race.

TL;DR: Instead of lowering standards for URMs, find out what is stopping them from achieving the standards expected of everyone else and fix that problem.

 

[deleted480308]

Then how should it be accomplished?

if there is an underserved area? the same way most problems of distribution are solved, the areas that no one wants to live in pay enough to attract the workers they need

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

1- I don't care what you expect?
2- Yes life is full of flaws and it is especially amazing when it tilts in your favor. No biggie, you can hide behind the reasoning that giving yourself a boost in admissions is good for society.

Well, instead of simply lowering the standards for a person to get in because they are black or hispanic, we could try to provide more opportunities for them to be able to reach the standards that are expected of non-URMs. For example, we could offer resources that URMs have easy access to (there are already a ton of SURP/summer undergraduate research programs that are specifically for URMs, but I digress), and we could also reform education at the lower levels so that science is much more emphasized. I can tell you from anecdotal evidence that many African Americans are under the impression that its either rapper, NBA/NFL player, or nothing. We need programs that remove this mindset from the African American community and emphasize the importance of education. Again, I'm simply using African Americans as an example, not trying to single out any race.

So the point of contention is that URMs could get in with a lower score than an ORM. So what? Schools take who they want, not who has the best scores. This debate is pointless.
Everyone and everything has preferences, including Medical School adcoms.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

So the point of contention is that URMs could get in with a lower score than an ORM. So what? Schools take who they want, not who has the best scores. This debate is pointless.

You are free to leave the thread at any time. You could go read other more worthwhile threads.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

You are free to leave the thread at any time. You could go read other more worthwhile threads.

Someone already pressed you for a solution, you have none. You're debating air. There is no substance to anything you're arguing for.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Well, instead of simply lowering the standards for a person to get in because they are black or hispanic, we could try to provide more opportunities for them to be able to reach the standards that are expected of non-URMs. For example, we could offer resources that URMs have easy access to (there are already a ton of SURP/summer undergraduate research programs that are specifically for URMs, but I digress), and we could also reform education at the lower levels so that science is much more emphasized. I can tell you from anecdotal evidence that many African American boys are under the impression that its either rapper, NBA/NFL player, or nothing (gangster, drug dealer, etc). We need programs that remove this mindset from the African American community and emphasize the importance of education. Again, I'm simply using African Americans as an example, not trying to single out any race.

Did you ever think this is because at one point it was easier to make money as an athlete or musician than to become a professional as a minority in our country? There hasn't always been opportunities for minorities in education really. Things picked up in the 70's and the number of minorities enrolling in college and grad school has risen more and more each year.

 

[deleted480308]

So the point of contention is that URMs could get in with a lower score than an ORM. So what? Schools take who they want, not who has the best scores. This debate is pointless.
Everyone and everything has preferences, including Medical School adcoms.

and when donald sterling "took who he wanted" to rent his apartments he was discriminating racially...I happen to find racial discrimination to be immoral

 

[MangoPlant]

So the point of contention is that URMs could get in with a lower score than an ORM. So what? Schools take who they want, not who has the best scores. This debate is pointless.
Everyone and everything has preferences, including Medical School adcoms.

I'm sure there were many white supremacists that said the same thing - "schools take who they want, not who has the best scores" - when civil rights activists argued for qualified non-whites to be allowed into top schools. Change does not happen without debate.