US residency after med school in Germany

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MNIkid87

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Hi,

I have a quick question (well, two actually):

If you study medicine in Germany and would like to later practice in the US, a) when do you write your USMLEs, and b) do you start residency after or before the PJ (Praktisches Jahr) - If I understand that correctnyl the PJ is kind of Germany's equivalent to the intern year, isn't it?

Thanks a lot for your help :)

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In Germany, medicine is broken up into basic science years and clinical years. The PJ is the final year of medical school and is done after you complete two years of clinical lectures. PJ is not an intern year; it is equivalent to 3rd and 4th year of US medical training. You could begin residency in the US at the end of your PJ if you are organized enough to have already taken the USMLEs, and have completed the application process for US residency.
 
MNIkid87,

Hey - I'm a 4th year US medical student, who has a German HNO Assistenzartz as a boyfriend, so hopefully I can give you a little info on the transition from the German to the US system.

As fruitloops mentioned, you can begin a US residency after your PJ. If you have not finished this year yet, I actually highly recommend doing one of your rotations at a US medical school. You would get a good feel of how our system works, as well as have the opportunity to get some letters of recommendation, which are extremely important in the application to US residency positions. As far as I understand, letters of recommendation as we know them don't exist in the German system, but combined with the USMLE scores, are probably some of the most important parts of an application.

Additional information about the praktisches Jahr vs. intern year in the US - the PJ is actually more similar to our 3rd and 4th years of medical school. In the US school system, we graduate from high school at age 18, go to university for 4 years, apply to medical school, and then go to medical school for 4 years. In medical school, we spend the first 2 years in class, then the last 2 years doing practical rotations through internal medicine, surgery, psychiatry, neurology, ob/gyn (Frauenheilkunde), family medicine (Allgemeinmedizin), pediatrics, and several subspecialties. So our intern year, which is just another name for the 1st year of residency, is really the same as your first year of residency.

In terms of the USMLE, you would need to have completed all 3 parts (Step 1, Step 2 CS, Step 2 CK) before applying to a US residency, and if you want to participate in the main residency Match, they have to be completed and all of your schooling certified by the ECFMG (http://www.ecfmg.org/) prior to applying, which generally happens in the fall of every year. For more information about the Match, see here: http://www.nrmp.org/. Almost all US residency positions are filled through the Match, which is a central organization through which all of us must apply. Additionally, you will need to take the TOEFL, which is a test of English proficiency. Actually, some US medical schools require you to have taken the USMLE Step 1 before you can do practical rotations there, so you can either take it before, or find a university that doesn't require it to do international rotations.

The strength of necessary USMLE scores will depend on what specialty you are interested in - for example, if you are interested in internal medicine, ob/gyn, psychiatry, etc. you will not need as high of USMLE scores and have a high likelihood of finding a position. However, if you are interested in a very competitive specialty (radiology, ENT, plastic surgery, opthalmology, neurosurgery, urology), you will likely need to come to the US, do a year or two of research, get really good USMLE scores, and then apply for a position through the Match. The more competetive specialties fill virtually all positions through the Match, as opposed to the less competitive, which you can sometimes find a position in outside of the Match.

Ich hoffe, dass die vorerwähnten Angaben Dir ein bisschen geholfen haben. Es gibt keinen deutlichen Vergleich zwischen den amerikanischen und deutschen Schulssystems. Nur am Ende sind wir fast genau ausgebildet :) Hoffentlich habe ich die Grundlagen unseres Systems ein wenig erklärt aber wenn Du weitere Fragen hast, kannst Du mir eine private Nachricht schicken. Ich habe viele Gespräche über die Underschiede zwischen unseren Systems gehabt, deswegen habe ich wenigstens eine Ahnung davon!

Tschüss,
Catherine
 
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A bit of clarification:

you are not required to take Steps 2 CS and CK to apply for US residency programs. Some programs may require it (and it is always better to have as much done as possible so programs won't worry about whether or not you will be ECFMG certified), but this is not an NRMP or ERAS requirement. These steps must be completed by the date of your rank order list submission but not to apply (barring specific program requirements).

the TOEFL is no longer a requirement for ECFMG certification.

See http://www.ecfmg.org for more information.
 
According the ECFMG website, passing Step 2 CK and CS is necessary for ECFMG certification, which they also state is required if an international medical graduate wishes to enter an ACGME-accredited residency program. (See here http://www.ecfmg.org/2009ib/ibcert.html on Certification and here http://www.ecfmg.org/2009ib/ibexam.html on exam requirements)

So yes (and thank you for the clarification, Winged Scapula!), you don't need them to apply; however, you do need them to begin work in a residency program. And as you are, unfortunately, at a bit of a disadvantage in the competition against US medical graduates due only to the fact that you are an IMG, having finished the ECFMG certification would likely count in your favor. Especially if you do well on the exams - that is, of course, always the key! :)

And I was also wrong about the TOEFL (going off my slightly outdated experience). However, from this personal experience, I know that many programs want some knowledge of an applicant's English proficiency if that person comes from a non-English speaking country. In my opinion, if you can obtain a good score on the TOEFL, it can at least demonstrate to a program that language barrier is not likely to be a problem for you.
 
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According the ECFMG website, passing Step 2 CK and CS is necessary for ECFMG certification, which they also state is required if an international medical graduate wishes to enter an ACGME-accredited residency program. (See here http://www.ecfmg.org/2009ib/ibcert.html on Certification and here http://www.ecfmg.org/2009ib/ibexam.html on exam requirements)

Whether it is true in the real-world of accepting IMGs or not, I wouldn't want to narrow my options by not having the ECFMG certification.

And that is reasonable but having been through the gauntlet and being ECFMG certified myself, I think I can speak to this with some experience.

To have the certificate requires not only completion of all exams, but graduate with final diploma. This generally means you CANNOT start a US residency right after you complete medical school because you will be too late if you wait for ECFMG certification. Thus, most students apply during their final year and complete all the steps, save graduation, toward the certificate.

Your post above said these exams are required to APPLY to US residencies which is incorrect. You are only required to have all the steps finished toward ECFMG certification to submit your Rank Order List in mid February. You must have the certificate in hand to START residency (I see you have now edited your post..thanks. We are all now in agreement on this issue).

That said, there are some programs that require applicants to have the certificate to apply. However, this is NOT an ECFMG, NRMP or ERAS rule and it simply set by programs who have either been burned before by ranking and matching a candidate who didn't obtain their certificate or are using this requirement to reduce the number of applications from FMGs.

I do agree that to maximize your chances, coming into the match holding the certificate will be a bonus (as long as one realizes that you will have a year off - which could be spent doing the PJ).

And I was wrong about the TOEFL - it is indeed not required for ECFMG certification. However, from personal experience, I know that many programs want some proof of an applicant's English proficiency if that person comes from a non-English speaking country. In my opinion, if you can obtain a good score on the TOEFL, it can at least demonstrate to a program that language barrier is not likely to be a problem for you.

The TOEFL is a joke. A second grader with a minimum of English language comprehension could pass it. And while you are correct that programs want some assurance that you can speak and communicate in the English language, that is what the personal interview is for. I have never seen an applicant rejected solely for not having a TOEFL score; if the applicant is good enough to warrant interview, it takes less than 2 minutes during interview to assess this factor.

Finally, it depends on which non-English speaking country the applicant comes from - it is assumed that most people from Western Europe will speak English fluently and well enough to be understood...fair or not, German students are unlikely to have their language skills given a second thought when reviewing their application.
 
To have the certificate requires not only completion of all exams, but graduate with final diploma. This generally means you CANNOT start a US residency right after you complete medical school because you will be too late if you wait for ECFMG certification. Thus, most students apply during their final year and complete all the steps, save graduation, toward the certificate.

...


I do agree that to maximize your chances, coming into the match holding the certificate will be a bonus (as long as one realizes that you will have a year off - which could be spent doing the PJ)

I'm trying to understand the time frame you're referring to here. As I understand it, the PJ is required to complete the 2. staatsexamen, German med school and thus would also be necessary for the ECFMG certificate. How could you apply with the certificate in the hand and then do the PJ?

Furthermore, are you saying that one could not apply for residency in the summer/fall of the last year (PJ) like a US medical student and hope to match and attend a program the following year? Is there a major hold up between the PJ and the 2. Staatsexamen. Or does the ECFMG certificate take a long time following completion of medical school? What would prevent one from being finished in time to start the program (besides failing the hammerexamen, of course).

Cheers! This thread is already very helpful.
 
The PJ is part of med school (in fact the last of the 6 years). This means you can only do the final exams (zweiter Abschnitt der ärztlichen Prüfung) after you finished your PJ. To get the ECFMG you need to be done with med school (this includes the final exam and the PJ).

Regarding the timing:

Depending on when you started med school and how long it took you to get through everything you'll graduate either in November or May. Because of the fact that it always takes a few months before you hold the ECFMG in your hands, you wont be able to start your residency in July, when you graduated in May.
 
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Ah, I was hoping the timing would work out because I'm on track to take the Hammerexam in April. However, the orals continue into June and many programs require one to show up by then. I suppose earliest I could have the certificate would be July or August then.

So the earliest it would make any sense to apply for ERAS would be following ECFMG certification i.e. Summer/Fall after the Hammerexamen, since ECFMG certification could help.

What does everyone do with that "gap" year? 3 possibilities I'm thinking of are finishing touches on a Doktorarbeit, completing USMLE step 3 or doing an MPH. Or perhaps just enjoying some last breaths of air before a residency (I hope)...

Thanks!
 
Step 3 and and try to get a research position!

At least that is want I want to do.
 
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