UW Residents Stage Walkout Against Greedy Hospital

[2021Doctor]

January 15, 2020

A group of University of Washington residents took the day off from clinic Friday to see their own providers, something many trainees did not feel comfortable doing under their current contract with the university.
The staged "wellness day" was the latest action amidst growing tensions between the UW Housestaff Association (UWHA), which represents residents, and university administration. Trainees are upset with low wages and slow-moving contract negotiations, but also wanted to bring attention to national lapses in physician wellness, said Brandon Peplinski, MD, an internal medicine resident and UWHA board member.
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
UW currently covers two days of childcare annually, and the UWHA is asking for the institution to extend coverage to at least one month of childcare services per year. Currently in Seattle, it can take years to be accepted in childcare programs, and costs an average $1,213 per month per child, or roughly 40% of a PGY-1 resident's salary.
The UWHA is also pushing for higher wages. Although the administration's contract offer included a 1%-2% pay raise, that amount does not keep up with Seattle's increasing cost of living, which rose 2.54% from 2018 to 2019, Peplinski said.
"Because of call requirements, you have to be able to get to the hospital quickly, within 30 minutes of being called in, and that requires you to live in expensive areas," said Kat Jong, MD, a psychiatric resident.
In a UWHA analysis of 59 peer residency programs across the country, UW residents were underpaid $7,000 a year, with a housing stipend at least $6,000 lower than at other institutions. Three-quarters of peer institutions provided one to two weeks more vacation compared to UW, according to the analysis.

Residents Stage 'Sick-In' to Protest Stalled Contract Negotiations

University of Washington trainees want wellness support as well as better pay

www.medpagetoday.com

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[deleted480308]

This has been discussed in other threads. If you don’t like the economics of a residency, rank elsewhere higher

 

[acapnial]

January 15, 2020

A group of University of Washington residents took the day off from clinic Friday to see their own providers, something many trainees did not feel comfortable doing under their current contract with the university.
The staged "wellness day" was the latest action amidst growing tensions between the UW Housestaff Association (UWHA), which represents residents, and university administration. Trainees are upset with low wages and slow-moving contract negotiations, but also wanted to bring attention to national lapses in physician wellness, said Brandon Peplinski, MD, an internal medicine resident and UWHA board member.
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
UW currently covers two days of childcare annually, and the UWHA is asking for the institution to extend coverage to at least one month of childcare services per year. Currently in Seattle, it can take years to be accepted in childcare programs, and costs an average $1,213 per month per child, or roughly 40% of a PGY-1 resident's salary.
The UWHA is also pushing for higher wages. Although the administration's contract offer included a 1%-2% pay raise, that amount does not keep up with Seattle's increasing cost of living, which rose 2.54% from 2018 to 2019, Peplinski said.
"Because of call requirements, you have to be able to get to the hospital quickly, within 30 minutes of being called in, and that requires you to live in expensive areas," said Kat Jong, MD, a psychiatric resident.
In a UWHA analysis of 59 peer residency programs across the country, UW residents were underpaid $7,000 a year, with a housing stipend at least $6,000 lower than at other institutions. Three-quarters of peer institutions provided one to two weeks more vacation compared to UW, according to the analysis.

Residents Stage 'Sick-In' to Protest Stalled Contract Negotiations

University of Washington trainees want wellness support as well as better pay

www.medpagetoday.com

1200/month is really more like 25% of their PGY-1 salary

 

[wholeheartedly]

1200/month is really more like 25% of their PGY-1 salary

It's about 37% of take home though

 

[PikminOC]

January 15, 2020

A group of University of Washington residents took the day off from clinic Friday to see their own providers, something many trainees did not feel comfortable doing under their current contract with the university.
The staged "wellness day" was the latest action amidst growing tensions between the UW Housestaff Association (UWHA), which represents residents, and university administration. Trainees are upset with low wages and slow-moving contract negotiations, but also wanted to bring attention to national lapses in physician wellness, said Brandon Peplinski, MD, an internal medicine resident and UWHA board member.
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
UW currently covers two days of childcare annually, and the UWHA is asking for the institution to extend coverage to at least one month of childcare services per year. Currently in Seattle, it can take years to be accepted in childcare programs, and costs an average $1,213 per month per child, or roughly 40% of a PGY-1 resident's salary.
The UWHA is also pushing for higher wages. Although the administration's contract offer included a 1%-2% pay raise, that amount does not keep up with Seattle's increasing cost of living, which rose 2.54% from 2018 to 2019, Peplinski said.
"Because of call requirements, you have to be able to get to the hospital quickly, within 30 minutes of being called in, and that requires you to live in expensive areas," said Kat Jong, MD, a psychiatric resident.
In a UWHA analysis of 59 peer residency programs across the country, UW residents were underpaid $7,000 a year, with a housing stipend at least $6,000 lower than at other institutions. Three-quarters of peer institutions provided one to two weeks more vacation compared to UW, according to the analysis.

Residents Stage 'Sick-In' to Protest Stalled Contract Negotiations

University of Washington trainees want wellness support as well as better pay

www.medpagetoday.com

Housing stipend? I have never heard of such a thing and never had one myself

 

[PikminOC]

January 15, 2020

A group of University of Washington residents took the day off from clinic Friday to see their own providers, something many trainees did not feel comfortable doing under their current contract with the university.
The staged "wellness day" was the latest action amidst growing tensions between the UW Housestaff Association (UWHA), which represents residents, and university administration. Trainees are upset with low wages and slow-moving contract negotiations, but also wanted to bring attention to national lapses in physician wellness, said Brandon Peplinski, MD, an internal medicine resident and UWHA board member.
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
Monica Samelson, MD, chief psychiatric resident at Harborview Medical Center, used the day to take her 15-month-old daughter to the pediatrician.
"As a resident, working long hours, not having enough time to take your kid to the pediatrician is really demoralizing," Samelson told MedPage Today. "Especially when you're taking care of other patients, it becomes really clear how important it is to have that support."
UW currently covers two days of childcare annually, and the UWHA is asking for the institution to extend coverage to at least one month of childcare services per year. Currently in Seattle, it can take years to be accepted in childcare programs, and costs an average $1,213 per month per child, or roughly 40% of a PGY-1 resident's salary.
The UWHA is also pushing for higher wages. Although the administration's contract offer included a 1%-2% pay raise, that amount does not keep up with Seattle's increasing cost of living, which rose 2.54% from 2018 to 2019, Peplinski said.
"Because of call requirements, you have to be able to get to the hospital quickly, within 30 minutes of being called in, and that requires you to live in expensive areas," said Kat Jong, MD, a psychiatric resident.
In a UWHA analysis of 59 peer residency programs across the country, UW residents were underpaid $7,000 a year, with a housing stipend at least $6,000 lower than at other institutions. Three-quarters of peer institutions provided one to two weeks more vacation compared to UW, according to the analysis.

Residents Stage 'Sick-In' to Protest Stalled Contract Negotiations

University of Washington trainees want wellness support as well as better pay

www.medpagetoday.com

Wait until these residents become attendings and then are under rvu production targets...

 

[GoSpursGo]

Housing stipend? I have never heard of such a thing and never had one myself

Some of the NYC programs also have them, for similar reasons. The fact that such a stipend exists should tell prospective applicants something about the quality of life in Seattle. I’ve said this before, but considering the cost of living, my wife forced me to move NYC and California programs further down my rank list. She was 100% right. It seems Seattle is in a similar boat.

Let’s not pretend that the residents there were desperate and matched low on their rank lists. Given the quality of the training, weather, and other attractive parts of living in Seattle, most of them made the cost-benefit analysis and decided that it was worth it. Having a hard time taking kids to doctors appointments is hardly unique to residents at UW—frankly, having any days of childcare covered at all sounds pretty good. They may now regret their residency choice, and UW might reasonably be able to be more helpful than they are being, but I have a real problem seeing anything about this process as “unfair.”

 

[PikminOC]

Some of the NYC programs also have them, for similar reasons. The fact that such a stipend exists should tell prospective applicants something about the quality of life in Seattle. I’ve said this before, but considering the cost of living, my wife forced me to move NYC and California programs further down my rank list. She was 100% right. It seems Seattle is in a similar boat.

Let’s not pretend that the residents there were desperate and matched low on their rank lists. Given the quality of the training, weather, and other attractive parts of living in Seattle, most of them made the cost-benefit analysis and decided that it was worth it. Having a hard time taking kids to doctors appointments is hardly unique to residents at UW—frankly, having any days of childcare covered at all sounds pretty good. They may now regret their residency choice, and UW might reasonably be able to be more helpful than they are being, but I have a real problem seeing anything about this process as “unfair.”

But this is the way they are raised nowadays.

Some people don't have kids. So they get biased against when extra is given to the ones who have kids? Discrimination

 

[AdmiralChz]

Housing stipend? I have never heard of such a thing and never had one myself

Apparently happens in urban areas that are mega expensive.

But I have really never heard of 2 (or any) child care days covered. If you couldn’t figure it out it was a sick/vacation day. Asking for an entire month... wow.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Apparently happens in urban areas that are mega expensive.

But I have really never heard of 2 (or any) child care days covered. If you couldn’t figure it out it was a sick/vacation day. Asking for an entire month... wow.

I guess they all want to extend their training...

 

[PTPoeny]

I guess they all want to extend their training...

The point of childcare days is usually to keep residents at work... I don't see how this would extend training.

 

[PikminOC]

Apparently happens in urban areas that are mega expensive.

But I have really never heard of 2 (or any) child care days covered. If you couldn’t figure it out it was a sick/vacation day. Asking for an entire month... wow.

So for the people who dont have kids, what is given to them. They should get the $$ spent on childcare days instead.

 

[Crayola227]

The point isn't necessarily just that UW's policies are so much worse compared to the rest of the country... sure they are quick to point out ways they feel they aren't being treated even to the low standard that does currently exist... it's also just that resident employment is awful, comparisons between programs aside. It's just awful. There's really no arguing it, except that people want to dismiss it. Is it business as usual? Is it just what you sign up for by applying to residency? I guess. That doesn't really seem like good arguments for why it *must* be so awful or it should be, to my mind.

People want to be able to afford where they live, the childcare they get, and an actually workable policy on getting healthcare for themselves and family. These things exist in other occupations even in this country, and in other countries for physician trainees. I'm not sure it's ruinous where they're had. Maybe we need to rethink a system that makes it seem crazy and undoable, rather than assume that the effort to obtain them is out of whack - maybe the system is whack.

I don't think anyone here imagines that the current system of healthcare delivery is optimal for anyone.

 

[Crayola227]

The childcare benefit is kinda like other benefits... some employees hardly use health insurance and some use a ton. Same with FMLA. Some benefits you only get if you need. People who don't, don't necessarily get some "boon" because they're paying for others' benefits in a way.

I have no kids but I don't mind the property taxes that pay for my local school.

Then again I'm not a greedy phaduck that thinks my every penny and time and effort must only ever benefit myself and not anyone else.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

The point of childcare days is usually to keep residents at work... I don't see how this would extend training.

Are not the childcare days days that would be covered if said resident had to take off because their kid was sick and couldn't go to daycare? If they take a month off, they may not meet ACGME requirements to be able to finish, particularly if they take a vacation as well.

 

[rokshana]

Are not the childcare days days that would be covered if said resident had to take off because their kid was sick and couldn't go to daycare? If they take a month off, they may not meet ACGME requirements to be able to finish, particularly if they take a vacation as well.

In IM they will have to extend training they miss more than 4 week/yr...If <4 weeks then it is up to the pd and GME if the time needs to be made up.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The point isn't necessarily just that UW's policies are so much worse compared to the rest of the country... sure they are quick to point out ways they feel they aren't being treated even to the low standard that does currently exist... it's also just that resident employment is awful, comparisons between programs aside. It's just awful. There's really no arguing it, except that people want to dismiss it. Is it business as usual? Is it just what you sign up for by applying to residency? I guess. That doesn't really seem like good arguments for why it *must* be so awful or it should be, to my mind.

These things exist in other occupations even in this country, and in other countries for physician trainees. I'm not sure it's ruinous where they're had. Maybe we need to rethink a system that makes it seem crazy and undoable, rather than assume that the effort to obtain them is out of whack - maybe the system is whack.

I don't think anyone here imagines that the current system of healthcare delivery is optimal for anyone.

So what do you suggest instead? And how do you propose to convince the public to pay for these benefits for doctors in training who will soon be making 6 figures?

Not that I necessarily disagree (or agree) with you or the residents. I'm just saying, complaining about how bad things are without suggesting how to realistically fix them doesn't do much good.

People want to be able to afford where they live

Again... by and large, nobody is forcing anyone to live in Seattle. Or NYC, or the Bay Area, or anywhere with a high cost of living.

 

[PikminOC]

The childcare benefit is kinda like other benefits... some employees hardly use health insurance and some use a ton. Same with FMLA. Some benefits you only get if you need. People who don't, don't necessarily get some "boon" because they're paying for others' benefits in a way.

I have no kids but I don't mind the property taxes that pay for my local school.

Then again I'm not a greedy phaduck that thinks my every penny and time and effort must only ever benefit myself and not anyone else.

There's alot of benefits people get with kids and some of them think others arent entitled to it if they dont have kids. I have hired and gone thru numerous staff. It's gets irritating. Having kids is a choice they made.

 

[LucidSplash]

Are not the childcare days days that would be covered if said resident had to take off because their kid was sick and couldn't go to daycare? If they take a month off, they may not meet ACGME requirements to be able to finish, particularly if they take a vacation as well.

I think they are actually days wherein the employer/university subsidizes the cost of the university’s backup/sick child care program. I suspect it means currently they cover 2 days, and the residents want up to 30 days subsidized? Seems like maybe there could be a middle ground somewhere.

Backup care - Human Resources

Backup care is available at locations throughout Puget Sound and nationwide. Sick child care is available in your home 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whenever you need to attend to academic or work responsibilities.

hr.uw.edu

I don’t have kids but that being said, this is an amazing program to have access to, even if you have to pay for it. I know a ton of people who this was the biggest source of anxiety - what to do if kid was sick and couldn’t be taken to daycare or what to do if their childcare plans fell through.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don’t have kids but that being said, this is an amazing program to have access to, even if you have to pay for it. I know a ton of people who this was the biggest source of anxiety - what to do if kid was sick and couldn’t be taken to daycare or what to do if their childcare plans fell through.

I completely agree. Even if you have to pay out of pocket, the fact that it's accessible at all is pretty remarkable to me. I have no idea what I would have done if I'd had kids during residency far from parents.

 

[BoardingDoc]

I think they are actually days wherein the employer/university subsidizes the cost of the university’s backup/sick child care program. I suspect it means currently they cover 2 days, and the residents want up to 30 days subsidized? Seems like maybe there could be a middle ground somewhere.

Backup care - Human Resources

Backup care is available at locations throughout Puget Sound and nationwide. Sick child care is available in your home 24 hours a day, seven days a week, whenever you need to attend to academic or work responsibilities.

hr.uw.edu

I don’t have kids but that being said, this is an amazing program to have access to, even if you have to pay for it. I know a ton of people who this was the biggest source of anxiety - what to do if kid was sick and couldn’t be taken to daycare or what to do if their childcare plans fell through.

Bingo. My current employer has this deal as well. I get something like 20 days/yr of emergency childcare covered for free with the point being that I am subsequently free to go to work.

 

[lymphocyte]

Something's clearly afoot at UW.
Over 400 residents participated in a walk-out about working conditions and pay.
Over 900 people signed the petition against the proposed contract.
The common denominator is not how acopic all these people are. The would be a highly improbable coincidence.
The common denominator is UW.

Everyone is quick to blame the ones who complain, but it's the ones who complain who make it better for the rest of us.

 

[deleted480308]

Something's clearly afoot at UW.
Over 400 residents participated in a walk-out over working conditions and pay.
Over 900 people signed the petition against the proposed contract.
The common denominator is not how acopic all these people are. The would be a highly improbable coincidence.
The common denominator is UW.

Everyone is quick to blame the ones who complain, but it's the ones who complain who make it better for the rest of us.

Nah, they won’t improve my life.

They have a good gig at a highly named place in a trendy part of town and are now acting oppressed when they knew and chose the deal. I’m always fine with wanting more but pearl clutching and moral grandstanding is silly

 

[lymphocyte]

They have a good gig at a highly named place in a trendy part of town and are now acting oppressed when they knew and chose the deal. [...] moral grandstanding is silly

Please tell me more about moral grandstanding.

 

[deleted480308]

Please tell me more about moral grandstanding.

The lines about never taking your kid to the pediatrician and neglecting your own health for years. It’s over the top public relations posturing for an HR dispute

 

[Dave1980]

They knew the contract they were going to get if they matched there...hard to feel bad for these kids.

I'm always surprised that residents would fight so hard for small raises or minimally better benefits. They must burn bridges by doing so and reap minimal benefit.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The lines about never taking your kid to the pediatrician and neglecting your own health for years. It’s over the top public relations posturing for an HR dispute

Yeah I don't get that. For scheduled well child checks, they have 3 weeks of vacation time they can use.

I also can't speak for everyone, but in residency I used post-call days to do stuff like see my doctors, take my dog to the vet (didn't have kids then), get my oil changed. Stuff like that.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Something's clearly afoot at UW.
Over 400 residents participated in a walk-out about working conditions and pay.
Over 900 people signed the petition against the proposed contract.
The common denominator is not how acopic all these people are. The would be a highly improbable coincidence.
The common denominator is UW.

Everyone is quick to blame the ones who complain, but it's the ones who complain who make it better for the rest of us.

The other common denominator is that they're one of the few centers that has a union which represents its housestaff. Regardless of how bad UW is or is not treating its housestaff, if such a union is going to exist and collect dues, you have to do something that shows that you're fighting for some benefit on behalf of the people you represent.

The lines about never taking your kid to the pediatrician and neglecting your own health for years. It’s over the top public relations posturing for an HR dispute

Yeah that part is silly to me. On my wards months you always wind up with a random Tuesday where you're off where you can take care of real life things, or in a pinch you can do it when you're on night float. It's not fun, but you do what you gotta do.

 

[Crayola227]

There's alot of benefits people get with kids and some of them think others arent entitled to it if they dont have kids. I have hired and gone thru numerous staff. It's gets irritating. Having kids is a choice they made.

If the abortion law stuff happens it might not be. People get raped and birth control fails. Unless we really want to push abstinence only even in marriage. That's really getting ridiculous for what employees are expected to do for the workplace.

Our culture is ridiculously employer oriented it's not even funny.

 

[Crayola227]

So what do you suggest instead? And how do you propose to convince the public to pay for these benefits for doctors in training who will soon be making 6 figures?

Not that I necessarily disagree (or agree) with you or the residents. I'm just saying, complaining about how bad things are without suggesting how to realistically fix them doesn't do much good.

Again... by and large, nobody is forcing anyone to live in Seattle. Or NYC, or the Bay Area, or anywhere with a high cost of living.

Someone most likely has to go to those residencies, and as a society we need them to. So no, they're not forced. That doesn't mean the cost of living issue is necessarily a non-issue. In general, a lot of people need to live in a big city like that for work. They can't all be farmers in the midwest. Nevermind that those jobs exist because of government funding. Beyond that, your choices are pretty limited as a farmer.

Short answer on what to do, I would just point to Australia's system.

Not to mention, the 6 figure salary of the average doc (so below 300K) isn't that much in the scheme of economics in this country and the average debt (This might sound nuts coming from me). Not saying it's poor, but it ain't rich. So I actually don't believe how what they make in the future makes up for not being able to make ends meet in the now.

Maybe extend more student loans to residents. They are in a strange niche for being trainees/employees. Perhaps that is more fair to those without kids etc, as each could borrow to their need and have to pay it back.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Someone most likely has to go to those residencies, and as a society we need them to. So no, they're not forced. That doesn't mean the cost of living issue is necessarily a non-issue. In general, a lot of people need to live in a big city like that for work.

As I said previously, let's not pretend that these residents were desperate and ranked far down on their match list. They are aware of the quality of training and prestige that comes from doing residency at UW, bundled in the weather and cosmopolitan and decided the cost-benefit ratio was worth it enough to rank them highly.

Maybe they regret that decision now. Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your decisions. Luckily, residency doesn't last forever.

Not to mention, the 6 figure salary of the average doc (so below 300K) isn't that much in the scheme of economics in this country and the average debt (This might sound nuts coming from me). Not saying it's poor, but it ain't rich. So I actually don't believe how what they make in the future makes up for not being able to make ends meet in the now.

But they *can* make ends meet! They're doing it every day. That article says that residents need to live in expensive areas, they may be underpaid relative to other residents based on the cost of living in the city they're living in, etc, But nowhere is it implied that these residents are going hungry or getting evicted or anything like that. So while I have some sympathy towards their plight, I think it's hard to argue that a resident getting paid $60k to live in a popular location is going to be seen favorably by making these demonstrations. I think it's a lot of negative coverage for UW and the housestaff alike.

 

[LucidSplash]

I kinda wonder if they realize that increases in pay will then result in increases in their income-based loan repayment. Small increases in pay usually don’t actually mean much of an increase in take home pay.

 

[rokshana]

Someone most likely has to go to those residencies, and as a society we need them to. So no, they're not forced. That doesn't mean the cost of living issue is necessarily a non-issue. In general, a lot of people need to live in a big city like that for work. They can't all be farmers in the midwest. Nevermind that those jobs exist because of government funding. Beyond that, your choices are pretty limited as a farmer.

Short answer on what to do, I would just point to Australia's system.

Not to mention, the 6 figure salary of the average doc (so below 300K) isn't that much in the scheme of economics in this country and the average debt (This might sound nuts coming from me). Not saying it's poor, but it ain't rich. So I actually don't believe how what they make in the future makes up for not being able to make ends meet in the now.

Maybe extend more student loans to residents. They are in a strange niche for being trainees/employees. Perhaps that is more fair to those without kids etc, as each could borrow to their need and have to pay it back.

This argument about residents getting paid so “little” has been made time and time again...I’m sure the waitress making $2.09/hr at the IHOP would jump at making 5 grand a month...so would a vast number of the US work force...

And UW is not podunk university...it’s a prestigious program and no doubt theses residents could easily have matched at the university of Arkansas where the COL is much lower...they chose prestige and location .

I remember as an intern, talking to a 3rd year and asked why, he, a Harvard educated medical student chose to do residency in Georgia ( and not in atl), and he said he and his wife wanted to have kids and the COL was low enough that they could be ok with him working and allowed his wife to be a SAHM...responsible people weigh things out.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't know, I think this is a larger issue than just take home pay, even if that's what they're fighting for.

Residency and the match is hardly a buyer's market. Yes, these guys likely had other lower COL areas on their list, but it's not as easy as saying you made the choice to go there, live with it. It should be more about how to make it feasible for residents to actually live in Seattle and work there. But they don't care about doing that because they ride the prestige train.

Residents are treated horribly in many programs, much worse than nurses, techs, or even the janitor in some places. When I was on IM wards my intern year, I had no time to do anything. You had one Saturday OR one Sunday off per week. If you called out sick, it was a thing. If I had kids, it would not be as easy as just using a vacation day (which by the way, had to be approved 8 weeks in advance). Allowing the kids of their employees up to 30 days of free childcare services, if it means they come to work, doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

There's just no reason that residency needs to be as grueling as it is, except for bragging rights and battle scars (yes, we all walked uphill both ways in the snow). I'm glad UW has a union. Every residency program needs one.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Every residency program needs one.

Utterly false.

My residency program had none of these problems. Sick kid? Take the day off, one of us childless folks had no trouble covering.

Low COL and still the highest paid FM program in the state.

Sure you couldn't take vacation on call months, but if something came up we found a way to make it work. I had a kidney stone on a call day, they had a replacement for me within the hour.

A resident's husband died unexpectedly. She took a month off, we gladly covered for her.

Are there programs that abuse residents? Of course. Are there plenty that treat them fairly? Yes.

The latter don't need unions.

 

[Mass Effect]

Utterly false

How can my opinion be false? Or are you saying my experience is false?

My residency program had none of these problems. Sick kid? Take the day off, one of us childless folks had no trouble covering

We're on the same forum that often suggests even if you have to have an IV in your arm, you should not take a sick day. You really think most programs would have the attitude of "sick kid? Take the day off, one of us childless folks had no trouble covering?" You really think most programs would rather cover for you than have the hospital give you a day of childcare for free? Is this the Twilight Zone?

Sure you couldn't take vacation on call months, but if something came up we found a way to make it work. I had a kidney stone on a call day, they had a replacement for me within the hour

Of course they did. I never suggested it was "impossible." It's not like they just look at the other residents are like "sorry, no one will cover this shift now." Of course they cover and of course people call out sick. My point is that instead of a healthy resident calling out sick because of their kid or because their babysitter is out sick or whatever, how about allowing them to bring the kid to work and offering childcare for free (or at least at a discounted rate)?

A resident's husband died unexpectedly. She took a month off, we gladly covered for her

That's a completely different thing.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

How can my opinion be false? Or are you saying my experience is false?



We're on the same forum that often suggests even if you have to have an IV in your arm, you should not take a sick day. You really think most programs would have the attitude of "sick kid? Take the day off, one of us childless folks had no trouble covering?" You really think most programs would rather cover for you than have the hospital give you a day of childcare for free? Is this the Twilight Zone?



Of course they did. I never suggested it was "impossible." It's not like they just look at the other residents are like "sorry, no one will cover this shift now." Of course they cover and of course people call out sick. My point is that instead of a healthy resident calling out sick because of their kid or because their babysitter is out sick or whatever, how about allowing them to bring the kid to work and offering childcare for free (or at least at a discounted rate)?



That's a completely different thing.

I'm saying that there are plenty of residencies out there that treat their residents well and have no need for a union. My response to you has no other purpose than that.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don't know, I think this is a larger issue than just take home pay, even if that's what they're fighting for.

Residency and the match is hardly a buyer's market. Yes, these guys likely had other lower COL areas on their list, but it's not as easy as saying you made the choice to go there, live with it. It should be more about how to make it feasible for residents to actually live in Seattle and work there. But they don't care about doing that because they ride the prestige train.

Frankly, how is it not exactly that easy? It's the same value judgement that people make in other fields every day--if you want to live in a "cool" city like Seattle, or NYC, or the bay area, etc, which are hubs for a lot of young professional jobs in fields even outside of medicine, then you're probably not going to live as comfortably. Nobody is entitled to live in a specific city.

or even the janitor in some places.

Come on.

When I was on IM wards my intern year, I had no time to do anything. You had one Saturday OR one Sunday off per week. If you called out sick, it was a thing. If I had kids, it would not be as easy as just using a vacation day (which by the way, had to be approved 8 weeks in advance). Allowing the kids of their employees up to 30 days of free childcare services, if it means they come to work, doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

There's just no reason that residency needs to be as grueling as it is, except for bragging rights and battle scars (yes, we all walked uphill both ways in the snow). I'm glad UW has a union. Every residency program needs one.

None of those things sound unreasonable to me either. But it's a zero sum game, and if you want those kinds of benefits then you have to justify why this situation is so deplorable that it needs the allocation of public funds more than other worthy causes.

 

[Mass Effect]

Frankly, how is it not exactly that easy? It's the same value judgement that people make in other fields every day--if you want to live in a "cool" city like Seattle, or NYC, or the bay area, etc, which are hubs for a lot of young professional jobs in fields even outside of medicine, then you're probably not going to live as comfortably. Nobody is entitled to live in a specific city

Those people make a choice and can move at any time. Residency has way more limitations than that. You're not exactly a free agent. Those people can also negotiate, they can turn down one offer and take another, they can get a part-time job, they don't have loans to pay back, they're not working 80 hours a week, they're not required to live a certain distance to work. It's hardly the same thing.

Come on

Dead serious.

None of those things sound unreasonable to me either. But it's a zero sum game, and if you want those kinds of benefits then you have to justify why this situation is so deplorable that it needs the allocation of public funds more than other worthy causes

The childcare center is owned by the hospital. It would hardly be "public funds" that we'd be ripping off from other worthy causes to allow residents to bring their kids to work a day or two. I dare say the hospital loses more money by residents taking off than they would to allow childcare.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Dead serious.

 

[Ligament]

Wow, seattle is SO EXPENSIVE on my resident salary. I can barely afford rent!

Hey, let's have a child! That will have zero negative impact on our dire financial situation.

 

[akwho]

My experience at UW as a medical student was wonderful, but I saw how they treated the residents there and never wanted to go there for residency. Most of my peers had a similar experience.

When adjusted for CoL UW residents have one of the lowest salaries in the country and one of the worst benefit packages to boot (no parking, minimal money for food, okay healthcare, limited childcare support, no housing stipend).

The funniest thing about this is if UW would negotiate with the residents union for these minimal pay increases and benefits they would become a lot more attractive as a residency, get better candidates, avoid negative news and publish more research. This virtuous cycle of better residents and more research would probably end up saving/making the hospital system money in the end. The other thing is UW is a near monopoly in the Northwest now, they are loaded, and buying up every practice and hospital in the area. It must be particularly hard for the residents to see all this cash floating around that they helped make and not even get paid enough to be insulated from the financial pressures of living in a city like Seattle.

I'm with the UW residents and am glad they are fighting for fair benefits and a living wage, it's about time.

 

[Dave1980]

This virtuous cycle of better residents and more research would probably end up saving/making the hospital system money in the end.

lol resident research making money for the hospital.

 

[RangerBob]

I’m a bit confused because I trained (fellow-so my income was a little bit higher) at UW and managed to support my non-working wife and son. We shared one car, used public transit, didn’t eat out often. I never felt like we were struggling. But we were 2.5 hrs to Mt Rainier and 3.5 to Olympic. Plus the amazing local/state parks. I guess the local food is good too, but I’m not the foodie type.

I’m all for residents having more support and better working conditions, and I support that anywhere it’s needed. It would be ideal if you didn’t have to chose where to do your residency based on whether or not you wanted/had kids, COL, program support, but that’s simply part of life. Attendinghood is no different.

I hope that UW and the union come to a compromise, but until then people should really think hard about whether a program is a good fit for them if there’s such an apparent lack of support and if it is truly that unaffordable.

 

[Dave1980]

I’m a bit confused because I trained (fellow-so my income was a little bit higher) at UW and managed to support my non-working wife and son.

How long ago was that?

 

[Roxas]

Wow, seattle is SO EXPENSIVE on my resident salary. I can barely afford rent!

Hey, let's have a child! That will have zero negative impact on our dire financial situation.

But now they get to carry the academic and moral superiority that comes with "prestigious" training in a stupidly overpriced city. It's a shame some people have to actually sleep in the bed they've made.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I’m a bit confused because I trained (fellow-so my income was a little bit higher) at UW and managed to support my non-working wife and son.

Thanks. This is what I don't get. Where are the partners in all of this? If we want to talk about how medicine (or any professional career) is exceedingly difficult for a single parent, I'm all for it. And we should definitely have better mechanisms to support this (smaller) segment of our community.

But if someone expected to show up in Seattle/NYC/LA and support a family on a single resident's income while also paying for childcare, that's on them for being irrational. And it's not up to UW to bail them out for their poor planning. If your partner isn't going to work, then their job (and yes, it 100% is its own job) is going to be childcare. If that's a deal people don't want to make, then it's a relationship issue...not an employer issue.

 

[operaman]

Yeah I'm a card carrying union guy but I'm not feeling much sympathy for the housestaff here either. I don't know where they think the money is going to come from, especially given the financial issues facing the hospital at large. An extra $6k in housing stipends, raises, and a month of free childcare per resident seems a little pie in the sky to me. I think their strongest argument, and the one that the PDs openly agreed with, is that these economic conditions probably do hinder recruitment of new residents, especially those from more economically disadvantaged backgrounds.

Those that are there came with full knowledge of the situation. As new physicians they can presumably do math and compare their take home pay to projected expenses. I didn't train in SF even though I love that city because a 1BR apartment was going to be $3500 /mo and I didn't want roommates. I made a choice based on the math. Others clearly were willing to make those sacrifices or had other financial support. I just can't picture matching someplace like that and then expecting them to pay for my poor decision making.

I have mixed feelings about housestaff unions. Since you can't really strike it seems like a rather powerless group. We have advisory councils that meet with hospital leadership to negotiate similar issues and this seems to work quite well and doesn't require any dues. I've also found our leadership very responsive to resident concerns and I've found those discussions rather eye opening when you start listening to the administration perspective.

As for the other perceived injustices of training, I'm always the lone voice saying that I just haven't experienced it. Maybe it's because our program is run by the residents with regard to scheduling and vacations and whatnot. I'm running our biggest busiest service at the moment and yet I have no trouble getting my people out of the hospital during the week. If people show up sick I send their butts home - went a long way in keeping influenza from taking us all out! Our faculty really stay out of the day to day running of things and we respond by ensuring that things are covered. Residency is always gonna suck a little but it doesn't have to suck very much.

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

As for the other perceived injustices of training, I'm always the lone voice saying that I just haven't experienced it.

You're not alone here. Residency was challenging, tiring, stressful...whatever you want to say. What job isn't? But it never felt systematically punitive or unfair, at least to me. Sure I also had to make financial sacrifices to make it work, but never to the point where I was worried about where my rent was coming from or what I was going to eat. And at the end of the day, the work paid off. I did my part, and now I (feel like) am a competent physician with some solid opportunities.

 

[RangerBob]

How long ago was that?

in the last 5 years