UW Residents Stage Walkout Against Greedy Hospital

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You absolutely do not have to live within 30 minutes of the hospital. You simply have to be that close when on home call. Don't live close enough? Stay with a buddy who does, or stay in the hospital. Don't know enough about the area to know if this makes a huge difference or not, but article makes it sound like it would. I am all for asking for more money in whatever job you have, but to pretend like you ate entitled to it is stupid. As for the not having time to go to the doctor thing, that is more the fault of the new work hour rules. Haircuts, banking, and health care visits were easy to schedule on a post call day. As a surgical resident I still managed to see doctors, dentists, optometrists.
 
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Ligament said:
Wow, seattle is SO EXPENSIVE on my resident salary. I can barely afford rent!

Hey, let's have a child! That will have zero negative impact on our dire financial situation.
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I think we forget that in particular, female physicians have difficult choices to make regarding career and when to start a family.
 
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Crayola227 said:
I think we forget that in particular, female physicians have difficult choices to make regarding career and when to start a family.
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The choice of when to start a family affects residents, regardless of gender. But unless we're talking about parental leave or discrimination based on actually being pregnant or taking said leave, I don't think it's UW's problem. The major issue arises when women residents are expected by their partners (or society at large) to be not only a resident, but also remain the primary caregiver for the child.

Like I said in a previous post, where are the partners in all this? The one person is quoted as saying that she had to take days off to bring the kid to a well-child visit. But why didn't the partner bring the kid? And yes, let me prempt this by saying that everyone is free to manage their personal lives how they feel is best for them and their family. But the limitations imposed by those choices don't warrant a labor issue.
 
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FaytlND said:
Like I said in a previous post, where are the partners in all this? The one person is quoted as saying that she had to take days off to bring the kid to a well-child visit. But why didn't the partner bring the kid?
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Does it really surprise you that a physician parent wants to attend the well child visits of their child? I have given my husband lists of questions but the answers just aren't the same filtered through a lay person perspective and without my answers to the follow-up questions from my physician. In addition, with breastfeed infants any feeding issues really have to be dealt with by looking at the mother-infant dyad together adding an extra challenge for some physician mothers.
 
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operaman said:
Yeah I'm a card carrying union guy but I'm not feeling much sympathy for the housestaff here either. I don't know where they think the money is going to come from, especially given the financial issues facing the hospital at large. An extra $6k in housing stipends, raises, and a month of free childcare per resident seems a little pie in the sky to me. I think their strongest argument, and the one that the PDs openly agreed with, is that these economic conditions probably do hinder recruitment of new residents, especially those from more economically disadvantaged backgrounds.

Those that are there came with full knowledge of the situation. As new physicians they can presumably do math and compare their take home pay to projected expenses. I didn't train in SF even though I love that city because a 1BR apartment was going to be $3500 /mo and I didn't want roommates. I made a choice based on the math. Others clearly were willing to make those sacrifices or had other financial support. I just can't picture matching someplace like that and then expecting them to pay for my poor decision making.

I have mixed feelings about housestaff unions. Since you can't really strike it seems like a rather powerless group. We have advisory councils that meet with hospital leadership to negotiate similar issues and this seems to work quite well and doesn't require any dues. I've also found our leadership very responsive to resident concerns and I've found those discussions rather eye opening when you start listening to the administration perspective.

As for the other perceived injustices of training, I'm always the lone voice saying that I just haven't experienced it. Maybe it's because our program is run by the residents with regard to scheduling and vacations and whatnot. I'm running our biggest busiest service at the moment and yet I have no trouble getting my people out of the hospital during the week. If people show up sick I send their butts home - went a long way in keeping influenza from taking us all out! Our faculty really stay out of the day to day running of things and we respond by ensuring that things are covered. Residency is always gonna suck a little but it doesn't have to suck very much.
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You didn't get the memo? It's their right..
 
PTPoeny said:
Does it really surprise you that a physician parent wants to attend the well child visits of their child? I have given my husband lists of questions but the answers just aren't the same filtered through a lay person perspective and without my answers to the follow-up questions from my physician. In addition, with breastfeed infants any feeding issues really have to be dealt with by looking at the mother-infant dyad together adding an extra challenge for some physician mothers.
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Then they have some choices to make. Having kids is their choice.
 
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dpmd said:
You absolutely do not have to live within 30 minutes of the hospital. You simply have to be that close when on home call. Don't live close enough? Stay with a buddy who does, or stay in the hospital
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What? This is crazy. My PGY 2 year, I was on backup call once a week. If I was the buddy someone wanted to stay with once a week, I'd say GTFO.

FaytlND said:
The choice of when to start a family affects residents, regardless of gender.
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Until men grow a uterus as they stare down menopause, it affects females much more prominently.

TikiTorches said:
But the actual residency was much harder. Pre Libby Zion
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Libby Zion has zero to do with salaries and COL in Seattle.
 
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Mass Effect said:
Until men grow a uterus as they stare down menopause, it affects females much more prominently.
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Yeah, I mean I'm just a surgeon but I still do remember the basics of reproductive biology. But since I didn't make a comparison of magnitude, I'm not sure what your point is. As I mentioned in the original post, women face unique issues surrounding pregnancy, birth and maternity leave. But after that, I'm not sure what is so controversial about the idea that child reading is something that can be shared. Of course, by bringing up the idea that it affects women more than men it tacitly condones policies which downplay the need for male residents to be given allowances for familial obligations. Which is part of the larger problem.
 
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sb247 said:
she has everything to do with hours and schedules, which was the specific thing they were discussing
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No, it was the specific thing TikiTorches brought up. The actual exchange regarding Seattle then (1985) and now (2020) was about affordability, not work hours.

Ranger Bob: I’m a bit confused because I trained (fellow-so my income was a little bit higher) at UW and managed to support my non-working wife and son. We shared one car, used public transit, didn’t eat out often. I never felt like we were struggling.

Dave1980: How long ago was that?

Ranger Bob: in the last 5 years

Dave1980: OK...lol...making sure you didn't graduate in 1985

TikiTorches: You really think it was easier then?

Dave1980: At that time the amount of debt was definitely much less. It seems like renting in a big city was also much less expensive.

TikiTorches: But the actual residency was much harder. Pre Libby Zion
 
Mass Effect said:
No, it was the specific thing TikiTorches brought up. The actual exchange regarding Seattle then (1985) and now (2020) was about affordability, not work hours.

Ranger Bob: I’m a bit confused because I trained (fellow-so my income was a little bit higher) at UW and managed to support my non-working wife and son. We shared one car, used public transit, didn’t eat out often. I never felt like we were struggling.

Dave1980: How long ago was that?

Ranger Bob: in the last 5 years

Dave1980: OK...lol...making sure you didn't graduate in 1985

TikiTorches: You really think it was easier then?

Dave1980: At that time the amount of debt was definitely much less. It seems like renting in a big city was also much less expensive.

TikiTorches: But the actual residency was much harder. Pre Libby Zion
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tiki said, "but the actual residency was harder. pre libby zion".

The work of residency was harder. That sure seems like a point about hours and work load as they then referenced a famous case anyone who isn't an idiot knows started the work hour restrictions.

Feel free to disagree if you prefer
 
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FaytlND said:
Yeah, I mean I'm just a surgeon but I still do remember the basics of reproductive biology. But since I didn't make a comparison of magnitude, I'm not sure what your point is. As I mentioned in the original post, women face unique issues surrounding pregnancy, birth and maternity leave. But after that, I'm not sure what is so controversial about the idea that child reading is something that can be shared. Of course, by bringing up the idea that it affects women more than men it tacitly condones policies which downplay the need for male residents to be given allowances for familial obligations. Which is part of the larger problem.
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My point was that @Crayola227 's response to the post mocking people for having kids in residency was right on.
 
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Mass Effect said:
My point was that @Crayola227 's response to the post mocking people for having kids in residency was right on.
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I think there is some room for a little mocking of people with kids choosing expensive cities and high burden residencies and then acting like they were somehow tricked and didn't have other options.
 
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sb247 said:
tiki said, "but the actual residency was harder. pre libby zion".

The work of residency was harder. That sure seems like a point about hours and work load as they then referenced a famous case anyone who isn't an idiot knows started the work hour restrictions.

Feel free to disagree if you prefer
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Yes, Tiki said that. And yes, I know Libby Zion case well. But my point was that Tiki threw in something that was totally irrelevant to that particular exchange. That particular exchange was about affordability, not duty hours. The posters were discussing the COL in Seattle in 1985, which has nothing to do with work hours.
 
sb247 said:
I think there is some room for a little mocking of people with kids choosing expensive cities and high burden residencies and then acting like they were somehow tricked and didn't have other options.
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Not one person said they were tricked. Not a one.
 
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dpmd said:
Good thing that wasn't the only option I proposed.
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No, you also proposed they stay at the hospital every time they're on call (in my case in an incredibly easy program from an easier residency, that would have meant something like once a week, I'd be staying at the hospital for like 36 hours). Sign me up!

How about instead programs that require you live within 30 min in a HCOL area pay a higher salary.
 
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Mass Effect said:
No, you also proposed they stay at the hospital every time they're on call (in my case in an incredibly easy program from an easier residency, that would have meant something like once a week, I'd be staying at the hospital for like 36 hours). Sign me up!

How about instead programs that require you live within 30 min in a HCOL area pay a higher salary.
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You are not going to get much sympathy from me for spending many hours in a hospital once a week. You do recall above where I mentioned being a surgeon and being pre the newest iteration of work hour rules. You can set up in a call room with netflix or a book u till you are sleepy, or you can chill at a bookstore or library after getting dinner at a nearby restaurant until heading back to the hospital to sleep. No call rooms would make that suck, but I have slept in unoccupied pacu or icu rooms before so I could make it work if I needed to.
sb247 said:
Yeah, I have stayed at the hospital for a number of days before due to commute. You just make it work
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Guess I am not the only one.
 
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Mass Effect said:
No, you also proposed they stay at the hospital every time they're on call (in my case in an incredibly easy program from an easier residency, that would have meant something like once a week, I'd be staying at the hospital for like 36 hours). Sign me up!

How about instead programs that require you live within 30 min in a HCOL area pay a higher salary.
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how about adults check zillow and the salary offers before they make a rank list?
 
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dpmd said:
You are not going to get much sympathy from me for spending many hours in a hospital once a week. You do recall above where I mentioned being a surgeon and being pre the newest iteration of work hour rules. You can set up in a call room with netflix or a book u till you are sleepy, or you can chill at a bookstore or library after getting dinner at a nearby restaurant until heading back to the hospital to sleep. No call rooms would make that suck, but I have slept in unoccupied pacu or icu rooms before so I could make it work if I needed to
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My point was that I, in a cushy specialty, was on backup call once a week, so yes, I would expect surgeons to have been on call more than that. And yes, I have done plenty of 24 hr shifts and plenty of boarding in the hospital during storms and whatnot, but so what? Residents not wanting to live in the hospital and wanting, instead, to stand behind their union is totally reasonable to me.

sb247 said:
how about adults check zillow and the salary offers before they make a rank list?
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I like my way better.
 
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Mass Effect said:
My point was that I, in a cushy specialty, was on backup call once a week, so yes, I would expect surgeons to have been on call more than that. And yes, I have done plenty of 24 hr shifts and plenty of boarding in the hospital during storms and whatnot, but so what? Residents not wanting to live in the hospital and wanting, instead, to stand behind their union is totally reasonable to me.



I like my way better.
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Like I said, I am all about people requesting more (benefits/money/whatever) but they shouldn't pretend they are entitled to it. Places that are desirable for people despite high cost of living often do not pay as much as places people have less desire to go to even if cost of living is low.
 
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You know what the best part about residency is?

It ends. Period. Fin.

I would wager all this complaining up at UW Unionville would do is threaten longer training periods for all. We all went through residency, and it sucked for a lot of us. We all made lots of sacrifices. Then we moved the heck on.
 
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Mass Effect said:
Yes, Tiki said that. And yes, I know Libby Zion case well. But my point was that Tiki threw in something that was totally irrelevant to that particular exchange. That particular exchange was about affordability, not duty hours. The posters were discussing the COL in Seattle in 1985, which has nothing to do with work hours.
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The original posting was residents not having time to take kids to appts. It wasn't easier in the past
 
dpmd said:
Like I said, I am all about people requesting more (benefits/money/whatever) but they shouldn't pretend they are entitled to it. Places that are desirable for people despite high cost of living often do not pay as much as places people have less desire to go to even if cost of living is low.
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Wait until residents get jobs at hospitals and then see how much they like being cogs generating ruvs
 
So yeah male physicians, considering their partners age, may also be facing tough choices regarding age and procreation.

Well so then the point is that while we all have the choice not to graduate college and to instead father/mother children at age 20, we who all go into higher education have made a different choice. They're all choices.

I don't think being a physician should make it so hard to start a family. It makes me sad all the female physicians I know struggling with fertility. No one wanted to choose to do it sooner because it was perceived to be too hard and not even fair to the child itself.

And I'm sure there are also male colleagues struggling with infertility as well, some due to age related female factor. Sperm quality also goes down with age, and basically any given couple, age on any side doesn't help.

I guess you could just find a younger mate if you're a man. That's a choice.

Does anyone care whatsoever that while yes, these choices exist, some are also pretty sucky. And maybe especially in light of the war on abortion, consider what we do as a society to help its members successfully procreate. Including in the definition what might be ideal - educated parents of reasonable means able to provide the basics and safe childcare. I think outside of schedule, doctors have a lot of qualities desirable in a parent. Our society should support them better.

TLDR
I think as a society we need to think twice about how difficult some of these "choices" makes childrearing and if it really should be that hard, and if not, what we might do.
 
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FaytlND said:
Yeah, I mean I'm just a surgeon but I still do remember the basics of reproductive biology. But since I didn't make a comparison of magnitude, I'm not sure what your point is. As I mentioned in the original post, women face unique issues surrounding pregnancy, birth and maternity leave. But after that, I'm not sure what is so controversial about the idea that child reading is something that can be shared. Of course, by bringing up the idea that it affects women more than men it tacitly condones policies which downplay the need for male residents to be given allowances for familial obligations. Which is part of the larger problem.
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I think all men should get equal benefits when it comes to parenting - leave, childcare, etc.

AGE is a hard limit for any individual woman as far as timing her reproduction. As with other aspects of having children, men share this burden if they are committed to a given woman.

So yeah, we should acknowledge that these are hard choices, and male residents may also have their backs to the wall on when to have kids.
 
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TikiTorches said:
There was literally a post that said it was easier to see the doc in the past due to post call days being off.
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In the days of overnight call being allowed, but also in the days where how long you were allowed to stay the next day was limited, it absolutely was easier to make appointments post call with reasonable certainty you would be able to attend them.
 
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AdmiralChz said:
You know what the best part about residency is?

It ends. Period. Fin.
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I do think this piece gets lost. 3-7 years of paying your dues, then a guarantee for a well-paying job with associated job security.

Compare to other industries that have similar "paying your dues" periods with no guarantee you'll ever make the big time.
 
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TikiTorches said:
Wait until residents get jobs at hospitals and then see how much they like being cogs generating ruvs
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They will bitch about how they "deserve" more even when their production is low, or agree to a salary then be upset they don't earn more when working more. Or maybe some will choose to eat what they kill (straight up revenue minus costs) either by contract or by setting up their own practice and will understand it isn't about what you deserve or feel entitled to, but what payer mix and contracts you end up with.
 
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dpmd said:
In the days of overnight call being allowed, but also in the days where how long you were allowed to stay the next day, it absolutely was easier to make appointments post call with reasonable certainty you would be able to attend them.
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You were so dog awful tired afterwards, you could not do it. The hours were brutal
 
dpmd said:
They will bitch about how they "deserve" more even when their production is low, or agree to a salary then be upset they don't earn more when working more. Or maybe some will choose to eat what they kill (straight up revenue minus costs) either by contract or by setting up their own practice and will understand it isn't about what you deserve or feel entitled to, but what payer mix and contracts you end up with.
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And every day off will be less RVU
 
TikiTorches said:
There was literally a post that said it was easier to see the doc in the past due to post call days being off.
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But you weren't replying to that post. You were replying to the one that said you were financially better off in Seattle back then.

I'll also add that your assertion that it was harder to do chores back then is in direct contradiction with what many, many older attendings have said with regard to duty hours. They were tired, worked longer hours, etc, but many, if not most, have said that they'd rather have post-call days than the current system of hour restriction.
 
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