VA hiring psychologists again

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NP112

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Was curious to see if anyone knows if the VA is around to hiring psychologists again? Seemed like the other forum topics had veered away from talking about this.
If they are hiring, are starting salaries matching the GS steps provided by OPM? I remember a little while ago, psychologists were able to negotiate a much higher rate.

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Some are hiring for positions. It’s not so much being able to negotiate a higher salary (although, depending on your stage of career, you may be able to negotiate starting at a higher step from what I’ve heard). However, many VAs were able to secure special salary rates for psychologists in order to improve retention. My local VA pays a bit higher than any of the other systems in the area due to the special salary increase. Although with the current bs happening, it is not enough to balance out the bureaucratic nightmare that is being a federal employee right now. I have friends who have accepted positions for when they finish postdoc and they are still not entirely secure in those positions existing in the coming months when it’s time to actually start.
 
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It's worth keeping in mind that VA hiring processes are long, and even once you have an offer after the interview, that offer can be rescinded at any time until you have your official offer many months in. About a year and a half ago I accepted an offer for a staff psychologist position and was in a 10 month long hiring process before the offer was rescinded with no notice due to budget deficits. And things seem much more volatile now. Even if you see a VA job listing I wouldn't feel too confident that they will actually be able to hire someone to fill that position 6+ months from now.
 
It's worth keeping in mind that VA hiring processes are long, and even once you have an offer after the interview, that offer can be rescinded at any time until you have your official offer many months in. About a year and a half ago I accepted an offer for a staff psychologist position and was in a 10 month long hiring process before the offer was rescinded with no notice due to budget deficits. And things seem much more volatile now. Even if you see a VA job listing I wouldn't feel too confident that they will actually be able to hire someone to fill that position 6+ months from now.
And if the wait for HR to do their paperwork was 10 months before...

What's it going to be like now (and in the immediate future, say, the next 1-3 years) for the onboarding process?

I'd predict at least doubling or tripling those wait times to get hired (20 months? 30 months?) if the RIF--as it hits, if it does, many HR positions, as predicted--decimates the HR staff ranks.

If, on the other hand, the RIF's lead to 'greater efficiency and improved quality of services' (LOL), which is an administration talking point...

Expect those wait times for HR to process the onboarding paperwork (or an AI algorithm to do it) to be slashed in half or in quarter or more (like, maybe wait times of only 1-2 months for onboarding new providers).

These are testable predictions. It's an empirical question. I predict onboarding process delays of several times more than in the past but...we'll see.

Once you get 'on board' as a VA psychologist, however, it's an 'interesting' practice environment right now, to say the least. This is amply covered and discussed other threads because there's a huge need to address reality and the fact that the proverbial 'emperor' is stark naked in broad daylight every day. And there's no way to offer sound advice on whether one should start a career as a VA psychologist right now without mentioning the problematic practice environment. I predict the upcoming revision of the criteria for varying degrees of service connection for mental disorders (no telling when this will take effect, has been pushed back several times) will lead to a massive influx of veterans into mental health clinics to be 're-evaluated' by MH providers to ensure that their levels of 'functioning' across five domains (rated something like 0-4) is sufficient to support a claim of 100% disability according to the revised criteria. Also, many of these folks won't stop coming back...and back...and back...and back...and back...until they get the documentation they are demanding and are ultimately rated 100% disabled. Add in the reality that we're talking about 100% self-report on criteria that can be extremely difficult to 'pin down' with some sort of objective assessment/analysis (especially if it's not to the satisfaction of the self-reporter) and we're gonna see people losing it and going bonkers (and I'm talking about providers as well, here).

The administrators/supervisors in mental health (attempting to justify/save their own positions) are going to be passionately whipping the providers who see patients to 'increase their productivity' and 'success rate' at getting their veterans to report significant reductions in self-reported mental health symptoms as a result of treatment (PCL-5, GAD-7, and PHQ-9 scores)...meanwhile...

Many of the veterans themselves are going to be trying to convince their providers that they are 'untreatable' and their symptoms 'aren't responding' to treatment efforts and that they need to be rated higher in terms of the provider's opinions about how disabled they are due to their mental health conditions and that they better damn well document in the veteran's chart just how gosh darn untreatable their PTSD is as well as every single symptom that the veteran reports as having had since the last appointment in order to support their rating increase.

I'm actually interested to see how individual psychologists handle this 'Kobayashi Maru' (Star Trek: Wrath of Khan reference) no-win scenario. It has played out in minor form for years but we are about to enter the 'forcing of hands' stage real soon.
 
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Yes there is technically still hiring going on in some locations but things can change when the formal plan to restructure VHA is announced in June and we'll see what kinds of direct care positions are cut as a result.

I would not do the following:
- Quit a decent job for a VA job
- Relocate for a VA job (unless you want to be there anyways and could find alternative employment if the VA falls through)
- Give advanced notice at a current job if you get a tentative offer (in Feb, we had a prospective internal transfer have their final offer pulled like 2 days before they were supposed to start new employee orientation)
 
Yes there is technically still hiring going on in some locations but things can change when the formal plan to restructure VHA is announced in June and we'll see what kinds of direct care positions are cut as a result.

I would not do the following:
- Give advanced notice at a current job if you get a tentative offer (in Feb, we had a prospective internal transfer have their final offer pulled like 2 days before they were supposed to start new employee orientation)

This one is difficult to impossible as HR will contact your current employer and will confirm it is for a VA job offer before you have a final offer in hand.
 
Was curious to see if anyone knows if the VA is around to hiring psychologists again? Seemed like the other forum topics had veered away from talking about this.
If they are hiring, are starting salaries matching the GS steps provided by OPM? I remember a little while ago, psychologists were able to negotiate a much higher rate.
wont happen.
 
wont happen.
Probably not for a long time, but it depends on who wins and takes control in 2028 (or later). If whoever is in power federally wants to rebuild the VA, they'd probably need to provide higher pay to attract psychologists and overcome any hesitancy and reservations about working for the federal government after the current debacle.
 
Probably not for a long time, but it depends on who wins and takes control in 2028 (or later). If whoever is in power federally wants to rebuild the VA, they'd probably need to provide higher pay to attract psychologists and overcome any hesitancy and reservations about working for the federal government after the current debacle.

There will be another group of new grads in need of a job, so first line providers are likely to be easier to fill. The leadership vacuum after it is collapsed? Harder to fill.
 
Maybe now I'll finally get that call back from the phone interview I did in 2007! He said he'd contact me "soon" about next steps. Is 18 years "soon" for VA timelines?

Pretty much. Are you ready to start Jan 2043?
 
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Only if I pension benefits accumulation is retroactive to when I interviewed and I can accept the position and immediately retire.

This guy thinks there is still going to be a pension offered in 2043! 🤣

I can't do that, but if you act now I can provide you with the opportunity to build own cubicle out of an IKEA box with the tiny flat wrench (providers must supply their own mallet for hitting the wooden dowels). We also offer perks like water with legionella, no available parking, and a cafeteria that is permanently under construction (while being too far to go anywhere else on a 30 min lunch break).

Where should I send the TJO?
 
Maybe now I'll finally get that call back from the phone interview I did in 2007! He said he'd contact me "soon" about next steps. Is 18 years "soon" for VA timelines?
2006 and 2007 was when VHA was transforming (it didn't resemble its present form AT ALL in the 90s and early 00s) and getting totally underwater with OEF/OIF stuff. VA in late 90s was cush. Surprised they just sat on this/you in 2007...
 
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Probably not for a long time, but it depends on who wins and takes control in 2028 (or later). If whoever is in power federally wants to rebuild the VA, they'd probably need to provide higher pay to attract psychologists and overcome any hesitancy and reservations about working for the federal government after the current debacle.
No. I think its over. Really, I do. There was sooooo much room to get in 2006-2009. A brief burst 2012-2014. And then again after COVID. But that ship sailed and it is no longer the org for Psychologists that it was even 10 years ago at this point. And since the RONA....it's obviously been even more "different" and "difficult" to tolerate for Ph.Ds. I have never met anyone who wished to "go back." That should tell you something. Everything, really....
 
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No. I think its over. Really, I do. There was sooooo much room to get in 2006-2009. A brief burst 2012-2014. And then again after COVID. But that ship sailed and it is no longer the org for Psychologists that it was even 10 years ago at this point. And since the RONA....it's obviously been even more "different" and "difficult" to tolerate for Ph.Ds. I have never met anyone who wished to "go back." That should tell you something. Everything, really....

Likewise. I trained and worked in the VA for some time. I'd say a bit over half of my neuro colleagues have left since then, and I haven't heard one shred of regret from those friends and colleagues. And lately, those who are in, are ready to jump out as soon as they hit certain retirement milestones.
 
No. I think its over. Really, I do. There was sooooo much room to get in 2006-2009. A brief burst 2012-2014. And then again after COVID. But that ship sailed and it is no longer the org for Psychologists that it was even 10 years ago at this point. And since the RONA....it's obviously been even more "different" and "difficult" to tolerate for Ph.Ds. I have never met anyone who wished to "go back." That should tell you something. Everything, really....

What I will say is that I would only opt to work with those in lower SES levels at the VA, where there are resources to help them. Going back to the private sector means likely limiting myself to mostly upper middle class and above clientele again.
 
Likewise. I trained and worked in the VA for some time. I'd say a bit over half of my neuro colleagues have left since then, and I haven't heard one shred of regret from those friends and colleagues. And lately, those who are in, are ready to jump out as soon as they hit certain retirement milestones.
Same experience. I also trained in a VA and really considered it early career (dual appointment), but not now.
 
I mean it's a bit different with neuropsychology, though. You guys are SUPER in demand.
That’s fair. I think primary care & health psych should/could do well in the VA too and have a place moving forward. The threat of mid-levels doing the vast majority of therapy and (purposefully?) blurring the lines w psychologists are bigger issues for long term viability of psychologists in the VA system. Psychologists need to be in more leadership positions.

Outside of neuropsych ppl, general psych assessment training seems much worse not better over the past 10-15 years. Since commercial insurance basically killed psych assessment reimbursement, it’s hard to push for it elsewhere, but the VA is one spot it should be utilized more. Just using a sf-report screener just makes it harder to sort through the bogus service connection attempts.
 
That’s fair. I think primary care & health psych should/could do well in the VA too and have a place moving forward. The threat of mid-levels doing the vast majority of therapy and (purposefully?) blurring the lines w psychologists are bigger issues for long term viability of psychologists in the VA system. Psychologists need to be in more leadership positions.

Outside of neuropsych ppl, general psych assessment training seems much worse not better over the past 10-15 years. Since commercial insurance basically killed psych assessment reimbursement, it’s hard to push for it elsewhere, but the VA is one spot it should be utilized more. Just using a sf-report screener just makes it harder to sort through the bogus service connection attempts.
One thing I can tell you--at least in our system--is that 95% of the MH clinicians appear to have an absolute phobia with respect to going anywhere near evaluating / diagnosing / or ruling out PTSD. This has been a pretty significant trend worsening over time. NOBODY ever wants to touch that one. The continuous referral/consultation bazaar is like an oil (PTSD diagnosis seeking vets) and water (scared MH clinicians) emulsion roiling all over the damned place.
 
One thing I can tell you--at least in our system--is that 95% of the MH clinicians appear to have an absolute phobia with respect to going anywhere near evaluating / diagnosing / or ruling out PTSD. This has been a pretty significant trend worsening over time. NOBODY ever wants to touch that one. The continuous referral/consultation bazaar is like an oil (PTSD diagnosis seeking vets) and water (scared MH clinicians) emulsion roiling all over the damned place.

A big piece if this is a complete misunderstanding of C&P. You can't just walk into a C&P exam with a dx from your doctor and declare you get disability income. You still need to undergo an independent disability evaluation. I point this out to all my perspective folks and at least half leave a consult not wanting treatment because they are only interested in the cash. Then I explain trauma services and the standard ebp protocols for PTSD. That takes care of the next 45%. The remaining 5% get referrals when they are stable enough to do the work/ not in constant crisis.
 
One thing I can tell you--at least in our system--is that 95% of the MH clinicians appear to have an absolute phobia with respect to going anywhere near evaluating / diagnosing / or ruling out PTSD. This has been a pretty significant trend worsening over time. NOBODY ever wants to touch that one. The continuous referral/consultation bazaar is like an oil (PTSD diagnosis seeking vets) and water (scared MH clinicians) emulsion roiling all over the damned place.
To be fair, dealing with compensation-seeking individuals is something a lot of mental health professionals, and healthcare professionals in general, dislike and don't want to deal with. And VA makes it even more stressful/precarious for the provider by being an environment that puts pressure, direct and indirect, on the provider to just comply, and substantially blurring the line between clinical and medicolegal roles. In some ways, it's like a huge worker's comp system, but where no one in upper leadership is willing or able to acknowledge it.
 
To be fair, dealing with compensation-seeking individuals is something a lot of mental health professionals, and healthcare professionals in general, dislike and don't want to deal with. And VA makes it even more stressful/precarious for the provider by being an environment that puts pressure, direct and indirect, on the provider to just comply, and substantially blurring the line between clinical and medicolegal roles. In some ways, it's like a huge worker's comp system, but where no one in upper leadership is willing or able to acknowledge it.
Couldn't agree more. It sucks all the way around. I'm just asserting that it would suck a little less for the person who has to 'evaluate for PTSD' at the end of the line if everyone just didn't completely ignore the issue all along the way.
 
Couldn't agree more. It sucks all the way around. I'm just asserting that it would suck a little less for the person who has to 'evaluate for PTSD' at the end of the line if everyone just didn't completely ignore the issue all along the way.
Agreed. I received more than a handful of referrals to evaluate people in the caregiver support program so that I could opine on whether they actually needed caregiver support. Given the situation surrounding the program at that point, I perceived it as people referring to me primarily so I could be the "bad guy." I imagine many PTSD evaluation referrals are the same.
 
I blame VSOs more than anyone. They're the ones who erroneously tell patients that they need PTSD evaluations and that they need to be in therapy to get/retain benefits. And we tell them they're wrong, and they STILL do it.
 
I blame VSOs more than anyone. They're the ones who erroneously tell patients that they need PTSD evaluations and that they need to be in therapy to get/retain benefits. And we tell them they're wrong, and they STILL do it.
Indeed. Although I also had more than on MH provider refer people to me explicitly for that reason.
 
I blame VSOs more than anyone. They're the ones who erroneously tell patients that they need PTSD evaluations and that they need to be in therapy to get/retain benefits. And we tell them they're wrong, and they STILL do it.

Yeah, from what many of our colleague Vets have told us, the VSOs are shady as hell. They see their job as needing to get as much money for the Vet as they can, as opposed to getting appropriate help for legitimate needs. If DOGE wants to look at fraud and abuse, that'd be a great place to start.
 
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