Vaccination ages

[RxPreceptor]

HHS Authorizes All Pharmacists to Administer Childhood Vaccines During COVID-19 Pandemic

The declaration is in response to a May CDC report, which found a concerning decrease in routine childhood immunizations during the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.pharmacytimes.com

Well, I vaccinated a 3 year old today...not nearly as bad as I expected. Got me some lidocaine handy (spray dose form) for the future to be able to use at parent/guardian's request to make things easier for everyone.

Curious as to what are your guys/gals thoughts/opinions on RPh's ever expanding scope of vaccination power? I am all for it (just feels so satisfying to me)

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[WorthlessOxygen]

Didn't the American academy of pediatricians come out against this? Something about being concerned that red flags for developmental disorders would be missed from skipping their appointments?

I've given flu shots to plenty of 3-4 year olds and it's almost always a pain. Plus I really don't want to stock that many more shots, and keeping track of multi dose series is the worst. How many people already deal with patients coming in claiming to have had shingrix 6 months ago at another pharmacy? I don't want to spend all day tracking down pediatric vaccination records.

 

[deleted480308]

I don’t think this is a “win” for pharmacy

 

[RxPreceptor]

I don’t think this is a “win” for pharmacy

It's this type of negative attitude I am sick of seeing on these forums. Sure a "win" is an oversimplification. Understandable for those who wish to limit liability. I am just in favor of more power (along with responsibility of course) & don't give a $h!t about gaining "provider" status because people will respect you still if one uses power responsibly

 

[johnpharm01]

It's this type of negative attitude I am sick of seeing on these forums. Sure a "win" is an oversimplification. Understandable for those who wish to limit liability. I am just in favor of more power (along with responsibility of course) & don't give a $h!t about gaining "provider" status because people will respect you still if one uses power responsibly

HHS can authorize anything they want, but it's not the only regulatory body I have to answer to. Your state BOP allows you to immunize children that young?

From a therapeutics stand point, the younger they are (and old too) they are more vulnerable. Should an adverse reaction occur they don't have the same physiologic reserve as an adult. They also dont have a medical history. Leave pediatrics to the pediatricians. Safety first.

 

[KidPharmD]

Didn't the American academy of pediatricians come out against this? Something about being concerned that red flags for developmental disorders would be missed from skipping their appointments?

I've given flu shots to plenty of 3-4 year olds and it's almost always a pain. Plus I really don't want to stock that many more shots, and keeping track of multi dose series is the worst. How many people already deal with patients coming in claiming to have had shingrix 6 months ago at another pharmacy? I don't want to spend all day tracking down pediatric vaccination records.

The AAP is protecting their bottom line. There has been many implications that the point of this authorization was really to expand the delivery of both flu and the eventual COVID vaccine this year. I don't know any pediatrician who examines their patient during a flu-shot only visit. The only time those things happen together is when the patient has an annual check up during flu season. As for childhood vaccines, there is only one set that is given after 3 (the 4-6 year or kindergarten boosters).

HHS can authorize anything they want, but it's not the only regulatory body I have to answer to. Your state BOP allows you to immunize children that young?

From a therapeutics stand point, the younger they are (and old too) they are more vulnerable. Should an adverse reaction occur they don't have the same physiologic reserve as an adult. They also dont have a medical history. Leave pediatrics to the pediatricians. Safety first.

The HHS authorized this under the PREP act. The general counsel for the HHS has essentially said that states cannot override the authority granted by the PREP act so you don't have to worry about your BOP.

 

[johnpharm01]

The AAP is protecting their bottom line. There has been many implications that the point of this authorization was really to expand the delivery of both flu and the eventual COVID vaccine this year. I don't know any pediatrician who examines their patient during a flu-shot only visit. The only time those things happen together is when the patient has an annual check up during flu season. As for childhood vaccines, there is only one set that is given after 3 (the 4-6 year or kindergarten boosters).




The HHS authorized this under the PREP act. The general counsel for the HHS has essentially said that states cannot override the authority granted by the PREP act so you don't have to worry about your BOP.

As a good student of pharmacy law, states are the ones who have final say in our practice. Take compounding for example as the FDAs authority to regulate it has dissipated. States even define who can hold what license. If a state says you can be a pharmacist if you can state 3 uses for penicillin, then so be it. So I don't find your assurance reassuring.

 

[KidPharmD]

As a good student of pharmacy law, states are the ones who have final say in our practice. Take compounding for example as the FDAs authority to regulate it has dissipated. States even define who can hold what license. If a state says you can be a pharmacist if you can state 3 uses for penicillin, then so be it. So I don't find your assurance reassuring.

Here is the opinion from the HHS general counsel regarding COVID tests: https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/advisory-opinion-20-02-hhs-ogc-prep-act.pdf

The presumption from our state board was that they couldn't disagree even if they wanted to.

 

[johnpharm01]

It's this type of negative attitude I am sick of seeing on these forums. Sure a "win" is an oversimplification. Understandable for those who wish to limit liability. I am just in favor of more power (along with responsibility of course) & don't give a $h!t about gaining "provider" status because people will respect you still if one uses power responsibly

Here's the problem people don't respect pharmacists. If we performed knee transplants they would want them done pain free and in 15 minutes or less. The old college pitch would include 1. There is a need 2. Pharmacists are an accessible provider 3. Pharmacists can perform the task cheaply

If you are tired of negative thinking, I am tired of this unrealistic thinking. Employers don't support a lot of these ideas even vaccination. They might have vaccine programs, but not private rooms or adequate staffing. Training is done at employees expense as well as many vaccinations.

Want a rewarding career in pharmacy? Enjoy what you have. As Sheryl Crow says it's not having what you want, but wanting what you have.

 

[johnpharm01]

Here is the opinion from the HHS general counsel regarding COVID tests: https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/advisory-opinion-20-02-hhs-ogc-prep-act.pdf

The presumption from our state board was that they couldn't disagree even if they wanted to.

Right now, it's probably difficult for any state board to be contrarian. However, by the time a malpractice lawsuit winds through the courts times will have changed. The sage individual stays with tried and true. People aren't going to care that you were trying to help, just that a child got hurt. Based on your moniker you work in pediatric pharmacy likely directly with physicians. Most of us don't. We don't have access to md support. So vaccinate away, while I stick to what is my area of expertise.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

The AAP is protecting their bottom line. There has been many implications that the point of this authorization was really to expand the delivery of both flu and the eventual COVID vaccine this year. I don't know any pediatrician who examines their patient during a flu-shot only visit. The only time those things happen together is when the patient has an annual check up during flu season. As for childhood vaccines, there is only one set that is given after 3 (the 4-6 year or kindergarten boosters).

My state has a carve out for flu shots and I'm sure could relatively easily have another one for the covid vaccine if that was the concern. Patients have to be 18+ for shots with the exception of flu, which is 3+

My concern wasn't about flu shots though (I stand by my statement that I don't particularly LIKE doing them, I've had several difficult children having meltdowns in my counseling room) but rather about the expansion to include all childhood vaccines.

Stores in my area were given exactly 0 extra tech or rph hours to handle covid testing, I would expect nothing more for expanded shots. Actually, I know for a fact we wouldn't be given extra hours because our RVP's justification for the covid testing was "We expect you to give shots without extra staffing, you can just think of covid testing as giving an immunization"

 

[M0df]

HHS Authorizes All Pharmacists to Administer Childhood Vaccines During COVID-19 Pandemic

The declaration is in response to a May CDC report, which found a concerning decrease in routine childhood immunizations during the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.pharmacytimes.com

Well, I vaccinated a 3 year old today...not nearly as bad as I expected. Got me some lidocaine handy (spray dose form) for the future to be able to use at parent/guardian's by request to make things easier for everyone.

Curious as to what are your guys/gals thoughts/opinions on RPh's ever expanding scope of vaccination power? I am all for it (just feels so satisfying to me)

So this is n = 1. I have given a few to 3 and up. I have yet to say no to anyone asking to get a flu shot for their kid but it is not the best idea. I have heard stories of pediatricians getting bitten by kids. I have had a few comparatively minor issues of my own. What happens is that a) you don't have enough practice of dealing with kids b) you are leaving up to their parents to make a decision if it is ok for their kid to be given a shot in some tight corner of a non private pharmacy area.

If you think you are great with kids, go ahead but things will happen and that corporate profit only mentality will not cover you. You do it as quickly as possible and breathe a sigh of relief once it is done.

 

[Pronounce Doxazosin]

While I’m indifferent about vaccinating children/pediatric patients, the pharmacy profession should be fighting to be able to immunize everybody, as it’s one of the few tasks that we do that is actually profitable

 

[M0df]

As I have been floating and overlapping a lot recently, I can tell you that many pharmacists are not always comfortable with peds immunizations. I understand that we, as a profession, weren't comfortable with adult immunizations either but we got plenty of practice quickly. We will not get the same level of practice with children. We will not get any additional training besides few more videos and online courses on how to pick the right size needle either. We are asked to do what pediatricians do. Pediatricians who have better support staff, better setup, and years of training on how to deal with difficult children. It might not matter so much for adults but for kids, these factors, come into play.

 

[RxPreceptor]

As I have been floating and overlapping a lot recently, I can tell you that many pharmacists are not always comfortable with peds immunizations. I understand that we, as a profession, weren't comfortable with adult immunizations either but we got plenty of practice quickly. We will not get the same level of practice with children. We will not get any additional training besides few more videos and online courses on how to pick the right size needle either. We are asked to do what pediatricians do. Pediatricians who have better support staff, better setup, and years of training on how to deal with difficult children. It might not matter so much for adults but for kids, these factors, come into play.

Confident enough in skills and knowledge to have anticipated and ordered correct needle size to have on hand for such use. Understandable if someone is not comfortable vaccinating a 3yo...say if he/she could not be controlled/calmed adequately enough by parent/guardian. As always, use your judgment...it's why we get paid what we get paid.

 

[Deja]

..it's why we get paid what we get paid.

think again... lol