Verbal-> predictor of med school performance

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debuci

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Hey

Did anyone heard this before? My friend's kaplan teacher said to her that studies have shown that Verbal score by itself is the most consistent predictor of how well students do in med school. Have anyone heard or known of such studies?

Thanks
just curious here.

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debuci said:
Hey

Did anyone heard this before? My friend's kaplan teacher said to her that studies have shown that Verbal score by itself is the most consistent predictor of how well students do in med school. Have anyone heard or known of such studies?

Thanks
just curious here.

I don't remember that from my Kaplan class and I don't know if it's true. Not that I would complain if it were true.... and at least no one said the best predictor was PS!
 
Wouldnt be surprised.

I am learning now that college is all reading. If you are an effective reader, meaning you are able to read at a moderate speed and retain and comprehend what you just read, then the easier school may be.
 
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Apparently MCAT VR score has the highest correlation of any indicator (GPA, overall MCAT, etc.) with Step 1 score... or, at least, that's my understanding of where that idea comes from.
 
Oh my God!!! There's hope for me yet.
 
TheDarkSide said:
Apparently MCAT VR score has the highest correlation of any indicator (GPA, overall MCAT, etc.) with Step 1 score... or, at least, that's my understanding of where that idea comes from.

i've heard this over and over again from varying sources. i've also heard its the most important (weighted most highly) section of your MCAT for adcommers.
-mota
 
I don't know why they bother giving PS and BS in MCAT then. Just more torture and more justification to charge a fortune to take the fking test.

Though I doubt that weighing heavily is true bc many people I know score higher in VR than the other two and still had trouble getting interviews.
 
I've also heard this before . . . including from one interviewer at UConn who said they consider the MCAT in general, but the verbal score in particular to be a very good (possibly said best, can't remember exactly tho) indicator of future medical school performance. I have not, however, found anything substantiative.

However, in terms of the general correlation between MCAT and boards, this is a fairly interesting read . . . (or perhaps uninteresting . . . surprise! there's a correlation :eek: )

http://www.academicmedicine.org/cgi/content/full/80/10/910
 
I heard prep courses were spreading around that rumor. I wouldn't trust Kaplan. That company can't even put together a decent practice test. I doubt they conducted any research on med school performance based on MCAT sections.

I heard the physical science section was the best predictor. I don't know why the biological science section wouldn't be.
 
Will Ferrell said:
I don't know why the biological science section wouldn't be.
Probably because med school and being a doctor isn't just about memorizing facts.
 
That's funny...I think all it takes to get a good verbal score is 1.) basic reading comprehension (no more than is required for SATs or AP English) and 2.) a lot of intuition. During the whole MCAT verbal section, I kept thinking "WHO is writing these questions? They're so unfair...it'd be easy to mess up. I often wanted to choose a different answer, yet I usually still "knew" what answer they wanted. Weird...
Maybe what they're finding is that people with stellar verbal scores tend to be good test takers. Nothing more.
 
This is interesting. I was told that verbal was the most important also who happen to know one of the adcoms at a school.
 
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funshine said:
That's funny...I think all it takes to get a good verbal score is 1.) basic reading comprehension (no more than is required for SATs or AP English) and 2.) a lot of intuition. During the whole MCAT section, I kept thinking "WHO is writing these questions? They're so unfair...it'd be easy to mess up. I often wanted to choose a different answer, yet I usually still "knew" what answer they wanted. Weird...
Maybe what they're finding is that people with stellar verbal scores tend to be good test takers. Nothing more.

i think its more that you can take information about something you have very little background about and then apply that information to whatever question you are being asked. yes- some of those questions were ridiculous at times and i always thought 2 answers were equally right. but its all about learning a certain system of answering questions. which is i guess what doctors do. a lot of applying information you've just recently gathered to make certain decisions.
-mota
 
Good news for me and the rest of the humanities people:) If that's true, I no longer have to wonder about getting an interview invite from Harvard, just await its arrival :laugh:
 
Med school GPA is really and truly related to how hard you work and how well you memorize. This is not all that related to the MCAT. There are studies that show that MCAT is correlated to Step 1 score.
 
debuci said:
Hey

Did anyone heard this before? My friend's kaplan teacher said to her that studies have shown that Verbal score by itself is the most consistent predictor of how well students do in med school. Have anyone heard or known of such studies?

Thanks
just curious here.


yeah, i've heard the rumors about this...never actually looked to see if there were any studies to support such a claim.

my $0.02, i did very poorly on the verbal section of the MCAT, w/ avg to just above avg scores on the other sections and ended up well above the mean on step I and have done well thus far in classes and on rotations (sorry but i don't like to share scores). so in my case the MCAT didn't predict jack for me...perhaps i'm one of the few that don't fall w/in the 95% on the bell curve.

i agree with the above post about hard work and getting good grades in med school. in addition, IMHO the MCAT and Step 1 are two completely different tests.
 
erin682 said:
Med school GPA is really and truly related to how hard you work and how well you memorize. This is not all that related to the MCAT. There are studies that show that MCAT is correlated to Step 1 score.

i agree with this statement. some schools are pass/not pass. and so your residency placement is entirely dependent on your step 1 scores and LORs. so for these schools, a lot more weight rests on the board scores since no med school GPA exists. you have to work pretty hard for good board scores too.
-mota
 
I have a hard time correlating success in med school with one exam section taken on one day! Personally, I didn't do so well on the ACT/SAT's, but I worked very hard in college and did well. There was absolutely no link between my standardized test score and success in college. Similarly, I can guarantee I will do well in med school because I am so dedicated and motivated, not because I can score well in verbal. I did poorly on the verbal section, yet I still have an acceptance (when I say poorly, I mean REALLY CRAPPY). I also have a total of 12 interviews so far (including one at Yale). I thought for sure I wouldn't get any interviews or acceptances with my verbal score. However, I am living proof that a poor verbal (or MCAT) score will not necessarily keep you from being a doctor. I've learned that the ADCOM looks at the whole package. Now- that's not to say that some schools aren't number fanatics. It depends on the school. Some schools look at the verbal section more than the others and vice versa. I know a good score doesn't hurt, but if one has a lower MCAT, it is NOT the end of the world. :luck:
 
osli said:
Probably because med school and being a doctor isn't just about memorizing facts.


I was told many times that med school is just sitting down and memorizing a ton of facts.
 
debuci said:
I don't know why they bother giving PS and BS in MCAT then. Just more torture and more justification to charge a fortune to take the fking test.

Though I doubt that weighing heavily is true bc many people I know score higher in VR than the other two and still had trouble getting interviews.
If you think the MCAT is expensive, wait until you have to start shelling out big bank for the board exams! :scared: :scared: :scared:
 
CTSballer11 said:
I was told many times that med school is just sitting down and memorizing a ton of facts.

true. i would even argue the same thing for college
-mota
 
CTSballer11 said:
I was told many times that med school is just sitting down and memorizing a ton of facts.
Not true. You can do that, of course, but it's not more effective than just studying for comprehension. Further, a bunch of memorized facts won't allow you to interpret data the way you need to in order to be a good clinician.
 
Verbal or MCAT does not predict jack $hit. Standardized tests are gatekeepers. Their sole purpose is to keep people out.
 
Faust said:
Verbal or MCAT does not predict jack $hit. Standardized tests are gatekeepers. Their sole purpose is to keep people out.

or...to get people IN. i think we all know who the pessimist is here.
-mota
 
I didn't do so hot on my verbal for SAT, and it probably prevented me from getting into the very top undergrad colleges. Im sure my not so hot verbal on the MCAT will do the same. Anyone else completely despise the verbal section??? There is hope though... the USMLE doesn't have verbal :love:

BTW, I can't understand how that verbal section correlates at all with real life. According to my SAT and MCAT I should be illiterate. :laugh:
 
debuci said:
I don't know why they bother giving PS and BS in MCAT then. Just more torture and more justification to charge a fortune to take the fking test.

Though I doubt that weighing heavily is true bc many people I know score higher in VR than the other two and still had trouble getting interviews.


"We do not torture" - George W. Bush.
 
shahab said:
"We do not torture" - George W. Bush.

We don't! ;) We just play a little rough. I am okay with that! :thumbup:

Anyway, off the politics. I agree with FAUST. The MCAT is designed to keep you out.
 
DaMota said:
or...to get people IN. i think we all know who the pessimist is here.
-mota

For every one person that is let in two are turned away. More people are sent away than accepted. Thus the gatekeeper metaphor is not something based on pessimism, but governed by real facts. If the MCAT was designed to allow people in then more people would be accepted than rejected.
 
i thought it was just a way for my princeton review verbal teacher to get me to attend class :rolleyes:
 
Faust said:
For every one person that is let in two are turned away. More people are sent away than accepted. Thus the gatekeeper metaphor is not something based on pessimism, but governed by real facts. If the MCAT was designed to allow people in then more people would be accepted than rejected.

that's if you're assuming that the MCAT is the sole determinant to get you in or out. if only half as many people applied as usual this year than your logic would be faulty. not the mcat's fault.
-mota
 
DaMota said:
that's if you're assuming that the MCAT is the sole determinant to get you in or out. if only half as many people applied as usual this year than your logic would be faulty. not the mcat's fault.
-mota


One day, I hope you get what I mean kid. It is not about logic. It is about the AMA. Investigate primary sources and do some deep research of why the MCAT exists. And if you still believe I am making assumptions or using faulty logic after doing the research then I will mail you a cracker.
 
funshine said:
Maybe what they're finding is that people with stellar verbal scores tend to be good test takers. Nothing more.

I agree with this statement! Being a strong reader who retains and comprehends info well is crucial to success in practically all standardized testing. And I know this because I have something better than scientifc evidence. I have anecdotal evidence. :rolleyes:
 
StevenRF said:
I didn't do so hot on my verbal for SAT, and it probably prevented me from getting into the very top undergrad colleges. Im sure my not so hot verbal on the MCAT will do the same. Anyone else completely despise the verbal section??? There is hope though... the USMLE doesn't have verbal :love:

BTW, I can't understand how that verbal section correlates at all with real life. According to my SAT and MCAT I should be illiterate. :laugh:


You're not out of the woods yet! There's a hell of a lot of reading on the step 1. It's all about reading a clinical vigniette and being able to extract the relevant information and drawing conclusions. typical pre-meds are notoriously bad at verbal because in most undergrad science classes, you don't have to draw your own conclusions about what you read. You just accept it. However, med school, and the USMLE, is about critical reading, which is what the verbal section tests. So I am not at all surprised that there are claims to VR being the section correlated with success on the USMLE. My advice-- practice reading and thinking about what you read! Editorials, scientific papers, etc, are all good practice for med school. There's really no other good way to be better at it... that's why I don't teach verbal at Kaplan, my teaching method would consist of: "here's how to find the right answer to this question--- you read the passage, and find the answer."
 
hannahq said:
I agree with this statement! Being a strong reader who retains and comprehends info well is crucial to success in practically all standardized testing. And I know this because I have something better than scientifc evidence. I have anecdotal evidence. :rolleyes:

It is a good thing you are not a lawyer. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
 
ahumdinger said:
You're not out of the woods yet! There's a hell of a lot of reading on the step 1. It's all about reading a clinical vigniette and being able to extract the relevant information and drawing conclusions. typical pre-meds are notoriously bad at verbal because in most undergrad science classes, you don't have to draw your own conclusions about what you read. You just accept it. However, med school, and the USMLE, is about critical reading, which is what the verbal section tests. So I am not at all surprised that there are claims to VR being the section correlated with success on the USMLE. My advice-- practice reading and thinking about what you read! Editorials, scientific papers, etc, are all good practice for med school. There's really no other good way to be better at it... that's why I don't teach verbal at Kaplan, my teaching method would consist of: "here's how to find the right answer to this question--- you read the passage, and find the answer."
Fantastic post. This couldn't be truer. :thumbup:
 
ahumdinger said:
that's why I don't teach verbal at Kaplan, my teaching method would consist of: "here's how to find the right answer to this question--- you read the passage, and find the answer."
Why not? That's how I did it. Seriously.
Oh, and to the person promising crackers: I get what you're saying, can you mail me a cracker?
 
DaMota said:
i think its more that you can take information about something you have very little background about and then apply that information to whatever question you are being asked. yes- some of those questions were ridiculous at times and i always thought 2 answers were equally right. but its all about learning a certain system of answering questions. which is i guess what doctors do. a lot of applying information you've just recently gathered to make certain decisions.
-mota

true, although in standardized tests, I think some people end up learning/following the system without even knowing what it is they're doing. Some people always do well on standardized tests and multiple choice, but when it comes to essay, they're stuck. And teaching others what they've learned? Forget it.
 
I've noticed that the people who do poorly in verbal just don't read enough. And they refuse to read when you tell them that's all they need to do to prepare...b/c they hate reading that much.
 
funshine said:
I've noticed that the people who do poorly in verbal just don't read enough. And they refuse to read when you tell them that's all they need to do to prepare...b/c they hate reading that much.

so true.
-mota
 
Thanks for all your 2 cents... now it's like equal to a dollar 40.

I'm in my 2nd year in a top 20 med school. I got a really bad verbal score 2 years back (veritably embarrassing). I could have sworn that's the reason why I didn't get called by the big schools but i'm mellow now. I think.

I used to think it's BS that verbal can be such a predictive factor but now I wonder. As I sit here right now studying for my umpteenth exam memorizing just an amazing amount of information, I wonder whether being a better verbal reasoner would make life easier or get me more honors grades. I'm a phys science guy through and through and think in terms of abstract concepts and numbers in college so there lies my problem.

I also heard from a very reliable source (a radiology chair who selects residents) that Step one is a great indicator of residency performance, as opposed to step two, and I believe him.

However, I think step one and Mcat VR are different animals. MCAT passages are pulled out from someone's malodorous cloaca. They're dry and unnecessarily dull and ridiculous in its pretentious intellectual tone and obscureness. Med literature, in particular case studies on which step one is based, can be very interesting and really justifies all this mindless brain stuffing.
 
ahumdinger said:
You're not out of the woods yet! There's a hell of a lot of reading on the step 1. It's all about reading a clinical vigniette and being able to extract the relevant information and drawing conclusions. typical pre-meds are notoriously bad at verbal because in most undergrad science classes, you don't have to draw your own conclusions about what you read. You just accept it. However, med school, and the USMLE, is about critical reading, which is what the verbal section tests. So I am not at all surprised that there are claims to VR being the section correlated with success on the USMLE. My advice-- practice reading and thinking about what you read! Editorials, scientific papers, etc, are all good practice for med school. There's really no other good way to be better at it... that's why I don't teach verbal at Kaplan, my teaching method would consist of: "here's how to find the right answer to this question--- you read the passage, and find the answer."

Ahh but I can do the physical and social science stuff. What killed me was one or two passages on some philosophy or art. Of the 9-11 pasages I would get 8-9 completely correct and bomb 1 or 2. BTW this is what I meant by "verbal"... oh well, I guess Im the only one that hates those...
 
Faust said:
One day, I hope you get what I mean kid. It is not about logic. It is about the AMA. Investigate primary sources and do some deep research of why the MCAT exists. And if you still believe I am making assumptions or using faulty logic after doing the research then I will mail you a cracker.

I think it's obvious that the number of medical school students is kept at a certain level, and I think that some many qualified students do not get admitted. However, if it wasn't the MCAT "keeping them out," then it would just be GPA or something else, something probably more subjective, like all these one-shot interviews. It's not like if the MCAT disappeared, all of a sudden more people would get into medical schools.
 
funshine said:
I've noticed that the people who do poorly in verbal just don't read enough. And they refuse to read when you tell them that's all they need to do to prepare...b/c they hate reading that much.

I agree completely. I'm a slow reader and therefore didn't have much time to read for pleasure in college...I really struggled to get an 11 on VR.


I'd have to side with the pro-MCATers, by the way. :thumbup:
 
USArmyDoc said:
We don't! ;) We just play a little rough. I am okay with that! :thumbup:

Anyway, off the politics. I agree with FAUST. The MCAT is designed to keep you out.
Great; then we can all agree that legislation prohibiting torture should not affect current practices, and as such there should be no opposition to its passage!
 
WholeLottaGame7 said:
I think it's obvious that the number of medical school students is kept at a certain level, and I think that some many qualified students do not get admitted. However, if it wasn't the MCAT "keeping them out," then it would just be GPA or something else, something probably more subjective, like all these one-shot interviews. It's not like if the MCAT disappeared, all of a sudden more people would get into medical schools.


Good point. I can only imagine that whatever they replace the MCAT with would be far more random and arbitrary; more people would apply, but the same number would get in, meaning more would have to be blocked later in the process.
 
I'm a living example that if you work hard for verbal multiple choice you will get better. I'm better at science and math than verbal.


On my PSATS I got 1180. SAT I - 1250 (620 verbal 630 math).
SAT 2nd time 1450 (690 M 760 Verbal)
SAT in writing 600

I am a terible writer and extremely hard for me sometime to explain general things. In fact, I find it much easier to write very technical essays and explaining things that are very mechanical. I think verbal multple choice questions are like that too. Do not assume what you think is right or wrong in the passage, the statements are said in stone in the passage. Do not assume that the author is using "creative" language to express his ideas. When people write, they write what they think. So you need to realize what they are thinking when they write and when you figure this out (took me like 2 months of practice to do this), you will do well on those damn verbal sections.

Also, I think it's not enough to just to read hard technical stuff and make your own opinions. It might be beneficial to read mcat verbal **** passages and read them if you only care about improving your score. But as people said previously, it seems as though that the critical thinking high verbal scoring people have is a quality you have to maintain through med. school (and not just cram for the mcat). As to how to improve this naturally and consciously, I don't know how to do this.

Now if anyone can explain how to improve writing I'm all ears.
 
Will Ferrell said:
I heard prep courses were spreading around that rumor. I wouldn't trust Kaplan. That company can't even put together a decent practice test. I doubt they conducted any research on med school performance based on MCAT sections.

I heard the physical science section was the best predictor. I don't know why the biological science section wouldn't be.

Totally agree with this. :thumbup:
 
drinklord said:
Great; then we can all agree that legislation prohibiting torture should not affect current practices, and as such there should be no opposition to its passage!

:clap: :clap: :clap:
 
verbal sucks. i've got verbal-ADD-itis. i'd be given a passage:

The most important event in the recent history of ideas is the demise of the socialist dream. Dreams always die when they come true, and fifty years of socialist reality, in every partial and plenary form, leave little room for idealistic reverie. In the United States, socialism chiefly rules in auditoria and parish parlors, among encounter groups of leftist intellectuals retreating from the real world outside, where socialist ideals have withered in the shadows of Stalin and Mao, Sweden and Tanzania, gulag and bureaucracy.

The second most important event of the recent era is the failure of capitalism to win a corresponding triumph. For within the colleges and councils, governments and churches where issue the nebulous but nonetheless identifiable airs and movements of new opinion, the manifest achievements of free enterprise still seem less comely than the promises of socialism betrayed. If socialism is dead, in some sense intellectually bankrupt, morally defunct, as they say, why does the capitalist vision seem to teeter so precariously over the same ash can of history? Why do the same writers who most tellingly confute the collectivist argument sing the praises of free enterprise only in an almost elegiac tone, writing staunch conservative tracts that end in the cadences of a dirge for their favored beliefs?

The dirge is sung in varied harmonies and arrangements. But it is undeniably a dirge. It is a curious fact that the celebrated group of neoconservative intellectuals, heralded as saviors of business, discuss the nature and future of capitalism in the same dolorous idiom used by some of the chastened but still assured advocates of "socialism." Meanwhile, the intellectuals of the Old Right have usually shunned altogether the challenge of reconciling their philosophies and their economics, and they are equally unlikely to confide a belief that capitalism is in decline. William F. Buckley's National Review, which for two decades has waged brilliant battle for the free economy, publishes anti-Communist and Christian "socialists," if they are culturally conservative, with much of the enthusiasm and frequency that it devotes to the cause and philosophy of private enterprise. Conservatives give Solzhenitsyn and Malcolm Muggeridge, both impassioned critics of the works of business, a place in their pantheon equaled by no contemporary businessman or philosopher of capitalism. Both are great writers and inspired Christian voices, and perhaps there are moments when carping is beside the point. Still, it is important for conservatives to deny with some comparable passion that capitalism is a historic and moral failure.

Yet Daniel Bell could survey the writers of the Right over the last seventy-five years and conclude that "romantic or traditionalist, Enlightenment or irrationalist, vitalist or naturalist, humanist or racialist, religious or atheist--in this entire range of passions and beliefs, scarcely one respectable intellectual figure defended the sober, unheroic, prudential, let alone acquisitive, entrepreneurial, or money-making pursuits of the bourgeois world." This statement must be qualified, since many important thinkers have defended capitalism. But Bell is right that the defenses have usually not resounded clearly; they have been almost always faute de mieux, praising free enterprise for the lack of an alternative that accorded more easily with the writer's religious and aesthetic convictions and with his sense of the way in which the world was going. Capitalism has been presented as a transitory and conditional compromise: the worst possible system, as Churchill once said of democracy, except for all the others.

and kinda like the way you took a glance at that and said to yourself, "**** reading that", i think i subconsciously did that during the real mcat. so when i "read", this happened:

The most important event in the recent history of ideas is the demise of the socialist blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah Churchill blah blah blah

now i've realized what i've done, and i'm thinkin, "wtf, goddamnit, son of a..."
so now i'm :confused: and i go over the passage again, sometimes just as absentmindedly as before. then i'm kinda :mad: and i start to blame my situation on churchill all of a sudden...always-constipated-lookin, british, tea-sipping bastard...
 
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