Vet student depression

[Minnerbelle]

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At least from what I've seen, it seems kind of like a lot of the stress comes from a sense of entitlement some students have about their grades. The students who seem to cope well seem to also be students who have either come to terms with the fact that in a class full of overachievers they're just average, or those who understand that they don't get graded on how much they've studied.

 

[HopefulAg]

I don't try for high grades and I'm still stressed.

 

[LetItSnow]

And what's this crazy talk about pushing yourself to get A's just b/c you need to prove something? You are capable if you want to do it...be satisfied with that

I'm gonna guess you haven't failed out of college before? 🙂

I totally agree with everything you said, intellectually. You're absolutely right that it shouldn't matter, and I should be satisfied. No argument at all. One of my UG profs (one who wrote a LOR, in fact) told me more than once that I set the bar too high for myself.

But in real life it's FAR easier to say "be satisfied" than it is to just sit back and do so. That's why I described it as a big challenge for me once I start school. You can tell me all day til you're blue in the face that getting a B or C in vet school is ok... having me "believe" you enough to relax is a different story.

So... have any practical advice on that? 🙂

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't try for high grades and I'm still stressed.

aw sorry hopefulag 🙁
what exactly is the stressor (if you don't mind sharing)? is it academics or something else? and is there a way to get help with that at TAMU? do you feel like you're just as stressed as those around you, or does it feel excessive?

i get stressed, but most of that's homesickness and missing boyfriend and everything else i left behind to come here... i don't think that has too much to do with vet school itself.

 

[twelvetigers]

I THINK... he just needs a hug.

 

[HopefulAg]

what exactly is the stressor (if you don't mind sharing)? is it academics or something else? and is there a way to get help with that at TAMU? do you feel like you're just as stressed as those around you, or does it feel excessive?

Vet school in general pretty much. I do feel I'm as stressed as others though, maybe a little less so.

Nothing in specific with TAMU, it's just I never feel good about tests, but end up doing well (except for anatomy). And there's the omnipresent thought of if you fail, no second chances (which isn't exactly correct but close enough). So, vet school in general.

 

[sumstorm]

Nothing in specific with TAMU, it's just I never feel good about tests, but end up doing well (except for anatomy). And there's the omnipresent thought of if you fail, no second chances (which isn't exactly correct but close enough). So, vet school in general.

I have to agree with this. My stress isn't about grades, it's about getting behind and never feeling like I did well enough. I'm not stressed about the differnce between an A or a C, but about a C vs a C- (we can't have a C- average) or a D. I walked out of an exam last week with a 94%, but I felt like I failed, the same as when I walked out of an exam a week earlier with a 74%. I walked out of an exam where I had a 99% feeling like I did ok (C-ish) and I find it completly mentally upsetting to feel like I can't even accuratly evaluate my performance anymore. I also can't differentiate, any more, what is critical to learn and what is 'look up later' material because all of it is equally testable in most of our classes.

I think the failure of my internal baromater of performance is really frustrating, because I could always *try* to study more.

Also, as a non-trad, while I am not as concerned about academics, I have other stressors in my life; parents getting older and needing some assistance, I'm in that time period of increasing pregnancy risk driving the question of 'if not now, when?', my husband was laid off last semester....I think the stressors are still there, just different. I can't afford to be as stressed by school. Also, as a non-trad, I get rather cranky being talked to like I've never had a career with responsibilities (I had a professor question how I know I wouldn't deal with a certain unethical act professionaly, with the assumption that I didn't know how hard it was to balance dealing with expenses and ethics, and was taken aback when I pointed out I had left positions for less cause than changing of records to hide errors). I look young for my age (I still get carded regularly), so that might not be a challenge for other non-trads. I also have to remove myself from some conversations...hearing vet students bemoan how unfair it was that they had to attend drivers ed for a DUI just irritates me.

As I have heard from my fellow students that they are on mood altering drugs as a result of vet school I am concerned that we are creating a pressure cooker environment that could potentially have long term consequences. Having said that, it isn't all distress, there is some great eustress. But for me, the academics is only about 30% of the stress I deal with.

 

[su_grad2007]

ahh, to go to a school where classes aren't required and/or professors weren't vindictive of students skipping classes.

I was talking to my husband about this because I don't get a whole lot from lectures, i do better studying from written materials. And his suggestion was to put in a pair of earplugs and study if attendance is mandatory. I haven't tried it yet because my only class right now is distance, but I'm going to consider it.

 

[nelonvet]

I was talking to my husband about this because I don't get a whole lot from lectures, i do better studying from written materials. And his suggestion was to put in a pair of earplugs and study if attendance is mandatory. I haven't tried it yet because my only class right now is distance, but I'm going to consider it.

Oooo....careful there...had that done before in one of my classes by someone and I can't beign to tell you how P*ssed off the professor got...if I were you...I'd sit as far back and in a corner as possible (although that person was almos tin the back too)...the danger starts if your name is called or are pointed at...that's even worse...be very careful doing that.

 

[nelonvet]

So... have any practical advice on that? 🙂

Sure.

1.) Wait till school starts. Do as well as you can, push yourself hard.
2.) Take the first set of exams
3.) See how well you did.
4.) Adjust from there downwards (if there's room down).

Then, you'll have an objective way of finding out how much you can relax.

 

[sumstorm]

Oooo....careful there...had that done before in one of my classes by someone and I can't beign to tell you how P*ssed off the professor got...if I were you...I'd sit as far back and in a corner as possible (although that person was almos tin the back too)...the danger starts if your name is called or are pointed at...that's even worse...be very careful doing that.

Yeah, I wouldn't risk that. I do tend to study in class anyways, but at least my ears and eyes are open enough to have half a chance if called on (plus a few friends around to give a friendly nudge/kick.)

 

[LetItSnow]

4.) Adjust from there downwards (if there's room down).

LOL. I love it.

 

[Pouches Rock]

I actually have noticed a shift in myself away from being an extrovert to being an introvert and it has become more pronounced as veterinary school continues. I really prefer to be alone and away from people for at least an hour after school ends and if it doesn't happen it messes with my day. I need that time where there isn't any extraneous stimuli that I can't control to come down off the day even if it wasn't a stressful day(you know more than usual). To some extent it has passed introversion to antisocial in that I feel angry when I get home and my roommate has company or impatient when they want to talk to me. We have worked out a system where I tell them if I don't want to converse for a while and they usually respect it. It is hard though when I don't want extra people around and they do. Some days I don't even like hearing them make noises in their room...which means I need to go for a walk or listen to music because I need to calm down 😀

 

[kaydubs]

I really appreciate the comments made by JKDVM. It's really...refreshing(?) to read from someone who "made it through to the other side" so to speak. I am disappointed I didn't get to read the blog, but it's probably for the best.

[RANT]I'm excited to go into this field, but I am far from the stereotypical naive pre-vet who loves animals & can't wait to start cause I don't have a real clue about the field itself. The ups and downs that anyone deals with in their life experiences definitely builds mental resilience and coping mechanisms. But, I'm not totally on board with the "if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger." The best advice I can tell anyone: live your own life to the best of your ability. People are always going to tell you that they could live with your circumstances better than you are. Yet, realistically they obviously can't cause they aren't you. I am really reaching out to pre-vets at my school (and on SDN) to give them the whole picture from my POV and let them decide if they really want to go forward with pursuit of the profession.

I can't stand the pre-health groups that don't give students a REALISTIC whole picture. Don't fill people's minds with fluffy dreams - give them insight into a career field.

:steps off soap box and goes back to schoolwork: [/RANT]

 

[Minnerbelle]

Vet school in general pretty much. I do feel I'm as stressed as others though, maybe a little less so.

Nothing in specific with TAMU, it's just I never feel good about tests, but end up doing well (except for anatomy). And there's the omnipresent thought of if you fail, no second chances (which isn't exactly correct but close enough). So, vet school in general.

🙁🙁🙁
sorry to hear that (they really need an icon of one smiley squeezing another). i hope you find as time goes on, that those fears are unfounded and the stress subsides a little. it sounds like for the most part you're doing much better than you'd anticipated 🙂

maybe it's just a little different here, with the whole pass/fail thing. aside from the handful of people who gun for being top ranked, and a handful that really struggle with the material, it seems like the the fear of failure here is very minimal. they make it pretty hard to actually fail, unless you really don't study or really struggle with the material. all the exam averages i've seen this year have been in the 80s or 90s, and you need an AVERAGE of below 65 in the entire course to flunk out. 70 is passing, but between 65-70 you still have chances to remediate. And, we still haven't lost anyone in our class yet.

 

[eventualeventer]

How about this one? A little goofy but it will do.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

Vet school in general pretty much. I do feel I'm as stressed as others though, maybe a little less so.

Nothing in specific with TAMU, it's just I never feel good about tests, but end up doing well (except for anatomy). And there's the omnipresent thought of if you fail, no second chances (which isn't exactly correct but close enough). So, vet school in general.

HopefulAg, for whatever it's worth I really disliked first year and was miserable for a number of reasons. I've found each semester to get better. Everyone says here that second year, esp. second semester is the worst ... but I've found it to be the best yet. I honestly study less, do better, actually LIKE the information and have fallen into a group of friends that I enjoy (completely different than my friends first year).

Hang in there...

 

[Goatherd]

Honestly--while I'm excited to be a vet, I'm really really nervous about vet school. I slogged my way through pre-req classes but I wouldn't really qualify myself as a "brain" or very "academically minded." Part of the problem is that it takes me far longer to learn the material than others around me--with the result that I seem to have to spend more time studying than others. And the other part of the problem is that I like life--I like reading "fun" books and hiking and spending time with friends and family--sometimes to the detriment of my studies. So I want to thank the vets/vet students who posted here--the more I hear, the more I prepare, hopefully the less of a shock it will be when I start next year!

 

[sumstorm]

I did like second year better than first...until I ended up with walking pneumonia and can't seem to get one of my grades above a D. I can't seem to get the time to catch up. I was sick for a full month, out of classes for 2 weeks. some classes I'm doing fine in, but one of our path classes...I just can't seem to recover.

I do like that the class seems to have stabilized somewhat...friendships have formed, some gunners have figured out that their attitudes were damaging their relationships, etc. But I also think there are more folks at risk of failing out than before.

I will confess, I don't read books for pleasure during the semester (except vacations) and I even stop reading magazines a couple weeks in. I still run or hike (hike 1x a month, run EOW or weekly), but I keep it local, and often I take flashcards with me (particulary if I am doing a long conditioning run of more than 5 miles) but I generally take my dogs for a mile walk or two milre run 3-5x a week.

I'm not sure I know of anyone who didn't find vet school a bit of a shock. For me, I find the better stocked I am at the beginning (food supplies, school supplies) the less stressful it is. I really admire the students that can schedule studying and maintain that study schedule. I can't not devote the night before an exam to the material on that exam...can't tear myself away to study the other classes.

 

[Goatherd]

Ugh Sumstorm--walking pneumonia sucks! Sorry to hear that--and I hope you're feeling a bit better!

Good to hear though that there is still a little time for a life outside vet school (you always hear people say that you need to have a life outside vet school but I always wonder how manageable that actually is) and that there is a light at the end of the first year tunnel!
here's to hoping we can all slog through four years and emerge relatively whole vets!

 

[HopefulAg]

HopefulAg, for whatever it's worth I really disliked first year and was miserable for a number of reasons.

Yah I've heard from several people (current students and recent graduates) that first year, specifically second semester (this one) is the absolute worst. It's like the weed-out semester or something I guess lol.

I also can't differentiate, any more, what is critical to learn and what is 'look up later' material because all of it is equally testable in most of our classes.

Oh this drives me absolutely nuts. I'll be studying and go "is this really important? Well they mentioned it so..."

On the last anatomy test it was whether the testicular vessels were cranial or caudal to the ductus deferens in the inguinal canal. I mean...really? I knew the answer because it was one of those "this seems too insignificant to be on the test..." things.

sorry to hear that (they really need an icon of one smiley squeezing another). i hope you find as time goes on, that those fears are unfounded and the stress subsides a little. it sounds like for the most part you're doing much better than you'd anticipated

Thanks, and I'll just imagine such a smiley icon in lieu of this forums lack of smiley diversity. 😛

 

[KiaKia]

Although I expect vet school to be really difficult etc, and that I'll probably have a sleep-deprivation headache through its entirety, the descriptions of vet school depression here sounds like my undergrad experience.
Many of my friends considered suicide, several tried, and we all looked like zombies. For me, it was a struggle for about a year to not walk *really slowly* through incoming traffic, but I didn't think much of this (it was annoying) since everyone else I knew was crazy too. Then I graduated and had enough sleep/no 24/7 homework+work+a few hours of social time and I'm sane.
Even the drinking on fri/sat did not seem entirely joyful, it seemed like desparation (not that they didn't have fun doing it).
Basically, I left with the impression that if there wasn't 1 preventable death/year, among faculty or undergraduates, the school must not be that strenuous.

People get depressed and suicidal, good diet, exercise and SLEEP make it bearable. For some people, socializing works, for others, not so much. Basic biological neccessities have to be taken care of first.

Also, no matter how bad it gets, make sure to get out of bed. and do what you have to do each day. Unless you have underlying problems, it's "just" 4 years. 🙂

 

[judeauvet]

It says misery loves company, introverts breed introverts, or something like that. It seems to me, that is exactly what they easily accept to vet-school; those that have no social life, nor do they have any clue how to treat people, or talk to people. When they finally graduate, they cannot socialize with clients to save their life. One of the veterinarians I used to work for, was always telling me how the admissions committees are, "screwing up" the profession. He said that they need to allow more students in who may not be perfect academically, but get decent grades in addition to their involvement. He would always say, "Those that are super involved in life, and get decent grades should be the ones getting accepted." I tend to agree with that assessment, and so does this blogger. Some of the vet-schools out there, are seeing the problems associated with the current model, and have changed their philosophies.

Hi Cowdocsoon,

Sorry to beat a dead horse around, but I would have to strongly disagree with you there. Either your are generalising far too much about Vet students or maybe you are talking about a specific University.

At my university (University of Sydney), 60% of getting in is academic, the other 40% is extra curricular. The majority of students i've talked to did part of their extra curricular at a Vet Clinic, and that means they've had a lot of exposure and have obviously dealt with human owner clients well in order to get a good recommendation.

Also, the picture you paint of Vet students being anti-social and unwilling to hang out after class only constitutes for a very small minority. We have regular social Vet events where over 100 of us show up every time, which is very high considering our class size is only 120. And everybody knows everybody in my year. This is even more true for later years, where people get even closer.

And my strongest disagreement is with this statement "When they finally graduate, they cannot socialize with clients to save their life."

Beginning from first year, we have whole units dedicated to our professional life. In year 1 we do "Professional Practice". And we have similar subjects for later years too. Our 5th year we don't even attend class, we 10 monthly placements at REAL Veterinary practices of our choice, and that i believe gets us completely ready to deal with real clients once we graduate.


I am curious if this is what they think of all us Vet students : (
But it is untrue! We do have social lives, and we are very friendly : )

 

[nelonvet]

Hi Cowdocsoon,

Beginning from first year, we have whole units dedicated to our professional life. In year 1 we do "Professional Practice". And we have similar subjects for later years too. Our 5th year we don't even attend class, we 10 monthly placements at REAL Veterinary practices of our choice, and that i believe gets us completely ready to deal with real clients once we graduate.

In AU...is this a typical 5 year progam...meaning you guys don't need a 4 year bachelor's degree to get into vet school, you go right after highschool (18 year old)?

Because if that's the case, that's great, good for you, the system here in the U.S. of draining students needlessly for 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars for a worthless bachelor's degree is ridiculous.

If indee dyou guys do go into vet med for a 5 year program out of high school, things are certainly different psychologically. By the time you graduate you've sitll got the majority of your 20's left to go and live life and plan life and so on... and you start at a young and relatively much more social age than people who start vet school here, especially those that have been psychologically and intellectually beaten like crazy during their 4 year BSc degree pursuit. It certainly changes the outlook of a perosn about academia and school in general...if you get my drift...not all people...but perhaps proportionately more students here in the U.S. than say in EU or AU where the 5 year programs exist.

I for one...am jealous of those programs..and p'od at the stupidity of our school systems here. 😡

😀

 

[judeauvet]

In AU...is this a typical 5 year progam...meaning you guys don't need a 4 year bachelor's degree to get into vet school, you go right after highschool (18 year old)?

Because if that's the case, that's great, good for you, the system here in the U.S. of draining students needlessly for 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars for a worthless bachelor's degree is ridiculous.

If indee dyou guys do go into vet med for a 5 year program out of high school, things are certainly different psychologically. By the time you graduate you've sitll got the majority of your 20's left to go and live life and plan life and so on... and you start at a young and relatively much more social age than people who start vet school here, especially those that have been psychologically and intellectually beaten like crazy during their 4 year BSc degree pursuit. It certainly changes the outlook of a perosn about academia and school in general...if you get my drift...not all people...but perhaps proportionately more students here in the U.S. than say in EU or AU where the 5 year programs exist.

I for one...am jealous of those programs..and p'od at the stupidity of our school systems here. 😡

😀

What?! Are you serious? That's really, really terrible!

Yes, our degree you CAN do it straight out of high school (provided you have had enough experience). But there are also many other pathways. For me i did ONE year of Zoology and then transferred. For others, they were Vet Nurses who wanted to expand their career.

There are many ways to get into Veterinary in Australia (though none of them easy, and there are only 120 placements per university, and only 6 universities that do have Vet).

But you're right, forcing students to do a mandatory 4 year degree is STUPID. I'm not sure how that will help students at all, except give them more debt.

Our program is 5 years, and we have really dedicated lecturers, so i believe we will be well prepared to face the challenges after graduation. We are continuously told that our education in Veterinary is a life long process, and so practical experience is taught from the first week of our first year, and in 5th year there is absolutely no theory, 100% practical.

I feel sorry for you guys : (

Also, i was wondering, is the $200,000 graduation debt for international students only? Or for all students?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Also, i was wondering, is the $200,000 graduation debt for international students only? Or for all students?

I guess it's not as common to take out over $200,000 as an in state student (though very easily $150,000 for some states) unless there was undergraduate debt, but it certainly does happen. the cost of education as an out of state student for me for 4 years is well over $250k without any tuition hikes which will inevitably happen. and that was slightly cheaper than some of the other choices i had. i'm doing everything i can to not take out the maximum.

if you're an international student (non-us territory), you're pretty screwed since you can't get federal financial aid... and that's if you can get past the extra stringent admissions.

i dunno about vet school, but i knew family friends who were international students for private US undergrads. not only did they have to show that they could afford a $200k education, they had to have all $200k in cash in the bank before they could even matriculate 😱.

 

[judeauvet]

I guess it's not as common to take out over $200,000 as an in state student (though very easily $150,000 for some states) unless there was undergraduate debt, but it certainly does happen. the cost of education as an out of state student for me for 4 years is well over $250k without any tuition hikes which will inevitably happen. and that was slightly cheaper than some of the other choices i had. i'm doing everything i can to not take out the maximum.

if you're an international student (non-us territory), you're pretty screwed since you can't get federal financial aid... and that's if you can get past the extra stringent admissions.

i dunno about vet school, but i knew family friends who were international students for private US undergrads. not only did they have to show that they could afford a $200k education, they had to have all $200k in cash in the bank before they could even matriculate 😱.

Oh my lord. Wow. Just wow.

If i were in the states, someone in my situation would never be able to go to university. I can't believe it is so hard to get an education in America, i thought it was supposed to be the land of dreams.

In Australia, international students pay roughly $200k for 5 year Vet, there are 25/120 places each year allocated to international students. But for local students like me, we only have to pay $40k for 5 years, and we don't even have to pay a single dollar until after we've graduate and have a job (in which case we pay it off gradually with minimal interest over many years). However, if we do chose to pay upfront, we get a 20% ($8000) discount.

I always thought that was how it was every place. Because i don't know how my family would be able to afford 40k atm (let alone $200k).

I guess maybe the bright side is that Vets in America have much higher income than in Australia (our starting salary is only $43k... one of the lowest for a bachelors degree!!)

 

[sumstorm]

If indee dyou guys do go into vet med for a 5 year program out of high school, things are certainly different psychologically. By the time you graduate you've sitll got the majority of your 20's left to go and live life and plan life and so on... and you start at a young and relatively much more social age than people who start vet school here, especially those that have been psychologically and intellectually beaten like crazy during their 4 year BSc degree pursuit. It certainly changes the outlook of a perosn about academia and school in general...if you get my drift...not all people...but perhaps proportionately more students here in the U.S. than say in EU or AU where the 5 year programs exist.

I have mixed feelings on the 7-8 vs 5 yr thing. We were talking about depression, and Australia is one of the countries where suicide is high in vets. I don't think any studies have confirmed the signficant 3x increase in the US, yet (it may be there and not have been studied) and that might be because students have to take a longer route. Of course, high debt rates could force it the other way. I'm not necessarily opposed to a 5 year plan, but I am concerned that maturity may be an issue, particularly with the more affluent American population that pursues vet med (I'm basing that statement on the fact that ~2/3 of vet students graduate without educational debt...and I don't have the citation at hand but it was an AVMA article.)

I do NOT believe that causes vet students to be introverts or unable to deal with clients. I believe that is often a learned skill, and i do at times feel that some students lack the empathy of perspective and that some students are unrealistic about money (either that clients have limited means and can't afford every test or that clients aren't financially responsible for thier own pets and that doens't mean we must take that responsibility over.) I would also say that for the few anti-social individuals, they are aware of their preferences and are not seeking out fields where they must deal with 2-6+ clients and hour. We still need vet researchers/pathologists/nutritionists/etc that don't necessarily require the same level of client contact (they still have to get alon with people, but in a different way.) I'd say I'm consider one of the less social people in my class, and that is because I don't go out to the bars after the hard tests each semester. Just not my thing. Arrange a hike or bike ride or any other outdoor activity, and I'm present. I like working with clients, turning medicine into teachable moments is one of my strong likes in the profession. It might be hard to judge fellow vet students from the microcosm of vet school.

 

[sunshinevet]

I have mixed feelings on the 7-8 vs 5 yr thing. We were talking about depression, and Australia is one of the countries where suicide is high in vets.

👍

Suicide rates in vets is much, much higher here in australia than it is in America - so its definately not having to do 4 extra years of study that makes vet students depressed.

There was a 10 year study done here in Western Australia, where, over that period, of all the vets that passed away, 1/5 died through committing suicide. Thats HUGE. Up until recently, vet schools in australia didnt do that much "professional practice/work life balance" sort of classes - now every vet school in australia commences classes in first year to teach students how to deal with depression, work life balance etc. Most universities have also stopped admitting students solely on grades, and have added an experience component to their admissions. These changes have only happened in the last 5 years or so.

 

[nelonvet]

judeauvet...

The awesome thing is, that in EU, AU, NZ, the countries where the 5 year programs exist...EVEN if...or rather, because...the school is AVMA accredited and approved, U.S. citizens, unlike the country's native residents (like you), are NOT allowed in unless they have a Bachelor's degree. I'm dead serious...I think the AVMA essentially forced those schools to conform to their rules about U.S. students; otherwise all U.S. students wanting to skip the bull**** that is known as the bachelor's degree, would apply to international schools to save money and time and then come back and work in the U.S....I really think it is a massive conspiracy...these bachelor degree reqruiement...

You guys certainly have a great system over there financially and intellectually-wise. You'll come out strong vets, and by the time we just graduate with our DVM's...you'll already have 3-4 years of REAL LIFE (most importnat) experience while we're just noobs...it's pathetic.

By the way...what is the degree conferred upon a veterinarian graduating from a school in AU?

 

[nelonvet]

👍

Suicide rates in vets is much, much higher here in australia than it is in America - so its definately not having to do 4 extra years of study that makes vet students depressed.

There was a 10 year study done here in Western Australia, where, over that period, of all the vets that passed away, 1/5 died through committing suicide. Thats HUGE. Up until recently, vet schools in australia didnt do that much "professional practice/work life balance" sort of classes - now every vet school in australia commences classes in first year to teach students how to deal with depression, work life balance etc. Most universities have also stopped admitting students solely on grades, and have added an experience component to their admissions. These changes have only happened in the last 5 years or so.

What is the debt:salary ratio upon exiting vet school in AU?

Typical debts (considering those also raked up during the bachelor's degree) exceed an average of 150,000 for vet school plus another average of 50,000 for bachelor's degrees, so 200,000 in debts is very typical (especially when considering accrued and compound interest of 6.5-8.5% per annum on average).

The average starting salary is about 65,000 for a general practitioner (much less for large animal vets). That gives a ratio of about 3:1 debt to starting salary; meaning about 20 years of loan repayments after graduation for the average student unless they sacrifice quite a bit in the beginning to try and nullify compound interest.

I'd really like to see sunstorm's citation on her/his claim that 2/3 graduate w/o debt. I ahve never heard such a thing and have always read the opposite...see this for example (note it DOES NOT include undergraduate debts, so the figures ARE higher):

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jun09/090601m.asp

All those numbers increase for private schools and out of state students by A LOT.

The problem is, even 20 years ago the ratio was closer to 1:1.

I think the current financial issue is one MAJOR factor in the depression vet students and especially working professionals may feel. It's quite discouraging that you study for 8 years and get paid as much as some union plumbers do who went to a 2 year vocational school right out of high-school or on a closer example, someone who goes to a Physician's Assistne program for 2 years and comes out with an average starting salary of close to $100k!!!

I'm not so much complaining about the salary as I am about the sacrificies one must endure for so little payoff financially and time-wise; that's why I support the 5 year program.

 

[EllieGirl89]

The average starting salary is about 65,000 for a general practitioner (much less for large animal vets)

This isn't entirely true. The average starting salary for a vet in private practice doing exclusively food animal is actually right on par with a predominantly small animal practicioner, and just barely below a practicioner going into exclusive small animal practice. It's the equine vets who are working for peanuts.

http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/1yremploy.asp

 

[nelonvet]

This isn't entirely true. The average starting salary for a vet in private practice doing exclusively food animal is actually right on par with a predominantly small animal practicioner, and just barely below a practicioner going into exclusive small animal practice. It's the equine vets who are working for peanuts.

http://www.avma.org/reference/marketstats/1yremploy.asp

My bad...I did mean equine but got mixed up, thanks for the numbers!

Check out the AAHA reports on salaries as well, they really break stuff down there much better than the AVMA website!

 

[168135]

Here we go again, lol.

 

[sunshinevet]

What is the debt:salary ratio upon exiting vet school in AU?

Typical debts (considering those also raked up during the bachelor's degree) exceed an average of 150,000 for vet school plus another average of 50,000 for bachelor's degrees, so 200,000 in debts is very typical (especially when considering accrued and compound interest of 6.5-8.5% per annum on average).

The average starting salary is about 65,000 for a general practitioner (much less for large animal vets). That gives a ratio of about 3:1 debt to starting salary; meaning about 20 years of loan repayments after graduation for the average student unless they sacrifice quite a bit in the beginning to try and nullify compound interest.

I'd really like to see sunstorm's citation on her/his claim that 2/3 graduate w/o debt. I ahve never heard such a thing and have always read the opposite...see this for example (note it DOES NOT include undergraduate debts, so the figures ARE higher):

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jun09/090601m.asp

All those numbers increase for private schools and out of state students by A LOT.

The problem is, even 20 years ago the ratio was closer to 1:1.

I think the current financial issue is one MAJOR factor in the depression vet students and especially working professionals may feel. It's quite discouraging that you study for 8 years and get paid as much as some union plumbers do who went to a 2 year vocational school right out of high-school or on a closer example, someone who goes to a Physician's Assistne program for 2 years and comes out with an average starting salary of close to $100k!!!

I'm not so much complaining about the salary as I am about the sacrificies one must endure for so little payoff financially and time-wise; that's why I support the 5 year program.

I'm not really sure why your going into the cost of vet school so much, after quoting my post, but ill respond anyway. The average starting salary out here is $40,000AUD/year, the average salary is between $60,000-$80,000 AUD. Definately not a lucrative career. However, the average vet will only graduate with $40,000 in debt, it is an interest free loan, and if we earn less than $40,000 a year, we dont have to pay any back.

So its not debt that is getting Aussie vets down! (Though the low salary:qualification ratio is definately a factor).

And American students CAN come out here without a full bachelors, as long as they have completed the prereqs required for OUR vet course. The reason most do it as a last resort instead of a first choice is because international fees out here are $40,000/year + living expenses, so american students out here are graduating with a $250,000-$300,000 debt MINIMUM. So thats why they all apply to american vet schools first (in general!)

So if you consider that we have less debt, spend less time in school and only earn slightly less money than american vets, yet have a higher suicide rate, im pretty sure its something else thats causing major depression in the veterinary profession than finances and time spent at school.

 

[lailanni]

Further, when you are spending 8+ hours a day with the same people, you don't always want to spend even more time with them.

AMEN to that! 👍

I'm sure my classmates are nice people, but I prefer that work (school) and my personal life stay separate. I'd hate having school BE my personal life.

I'll hang out with my close vet school friends outside of class, but otherwise I'd prefer not to interact with my classmates - going out, etc. School can stay at school. Down time is for me.