VSAS to open to DO students in 2012

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Sounds like good news. Thanks 👍

Just wondering, why do some schools (UCD-SOM for example) not participate in the VSAS system?
 
Honestly, I think this was a pretty good play by the AOA. Love them or hate them, it seems like they were looking out for DO student's elective/audition rotation interests here.

Additionally, this leads me to believe that Caribbean medical students are REALLY going to start feeling the squeeze for auditions and chances at matching if they are the only group not eligible for VSAS.
 
DocEspana said:
This is over a moth old info. How did I not know this. This is really awesome.
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Better question - why do you measure your time in moth years??? That must make it impossible to keep a tight schedule in people time???
:meanie:

Couldn't resist ...
 
This is awesome!

To answer someone's question above, UCD-SOM does use VSAS.
 
incredible. but quick question, what implications does this truly have? better residencies, broader DO recognition, etc? not being sarcastic. legitimate questions.
 
someone cure me of my ignorance, what is VSAS?
 
cliffhuxtableDO said:
someone cure me of my ignorance, what is VSAS?
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Visiting Student Application Service (If im slightly wrong with the acronym, my apologies). It is a standardized form that US allopathic students use to apply to nearly all elective rotation. It previously has not allowed DOs or Carib MD students to use it.
 
DocEspana said:
Visiting Student Application Service (If im slightly wrong with the acronym, my apologies). It is a standardized form that US allopathic students use to apply to nearly all elective rotation. It previously has not allowed DOs or Carib MD students to use it.
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Sweet! This seems like it'll make setting up electives/auditions a lot easier. Right?
 
This is great news! I'm glad to see that DO's are becoming more and more integrated with the allopathic system. This also is exciting because now electives will be easier to figure out and schedule.
 
Does this work the other way around as well? Can Allopathic students schedule rotations at DO schools as well? Could this possibly be the beginning of MD students being able to match into AOA residencies??
 
I am hoping this will make DO students for rotations look less like an "exception" and more just part of the system. This would, I hope, be followed by a general erosion of the percieved outsiderness of DO students as they are considered for residencies.
 
Devil's advocate here ...

If we look at this as an olive branch, an integration of DOs as the norm, etc, should the same privileges be extended to MD students looking to do elective rotations at DO sites and potentially compete for AOA residencies? I've made my views clear in the past, but curious as to what others think and wondering if the acgme or Lcme will ever tire of playing nice without ever really getting anything in return.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Devil's advocate here ...

If we look at this as an olive branch, an integration of DOs as the norm, etc, should the same privileges be extended to MD students looking to do elective rotations at DO sites and potentially compete for AOA residencies? I've made my views clear in the past, but curious as to what others think and wondering if the acgme or Lcme will ever tire of playing nice without ever really getting anything in return.
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Absolutely, I think all US trained students should be allowed to compete for the same residencies. IMO it's the only fair thing to do. It seems selfish that we don't offer our residencies up to the allopathic students.
 
Stupid question:

VSAS to open to DO students in 2012, what does it mean?
Does it mean that I can apply for rotations(3rd and 4th year) at any place which accept VSAS?

thanks
 
pcard said:
Stupid question:

VSAS to open to DO students in 2012, what does it mean?
Does it mean that I can apply for rotations(3rd and 4th year) at any place which accept VSAS?

thanks
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It means the class of 2013 on should be able to use it. So people heaidng into clinicals right now have about a year where they cant use it, but thats fine because you dont really use VSAS until the end of your 3rd year or start of your 4th anyway. Really, only current 3rd (about to be 4th) year medical students wont benefit from this.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Devil's advocate here ...

If we look at this as an olive branch, an integration of DOs as the norm, etc, should the same privileges be extended to MD students looking to do elective rotations at DO sites and potentially compete for AOA residencies? I've made my views clear in the past, but curious as to what others think and wondering if the acgme or Lcme will ever tire of playing nice without ever really getting anything in return.
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Maybe I am not playing fair, but I think it's best to keep AOA spots DO-only for now. It increases the attractiveness DO schools. Once the percieved biases are gone, then I'm all for MD students rotating at DO spots, but until then...

There are MD schools who have written on their rotation web sites that DO applicants are not accepted. So we don't really have a fair system yet.
 
NurWollen said:
Maybe I am not playing fair, but I think it's best to keep AOA spots DO-only for now. It increases the attractiveness DO schools. Once the percieved biases are gone, then I'm all for MD students rotating at DO spots, but until then...

There are MD schools who have written on their rotation web sites that DO applicants are not accepted. So we don't really have a fair system yet.
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Lets also not forget that there are 3 spots for every 2 MDs trained in the US. There is a very large excess of NRMP spots for the near future. There are only about .7 AOA seats per DO trained. There is currently no reason why MDs can't rotate at hospitals with AOA rotations, there just isn't a lot of *sense* in it since they aren't eligible for the residency spots. I totally see the logic in opening all spots to everyone, or opening them to everyone who has qualified as sufficiently trained in osteopathic manipulation and diagnostic theory... but despite this, I gotta agree with NW here, there is some level of bias built into some schools. While we shouldn't go eye-for-an-eye, the sheer numbers argument of extreme excess vs not enough to cover everyone should keep the AOA match entirely DO for a long time still.

(though 20 years from now when demand for all spots is high, i think the combining will happen by then, if it didn't happen earlier)
 
DocEspana said:
Lets also not forget that there are 3 spots for every 2 MDs trained in the US. There is a very large excess of NRMP spots for the near future. There are only about .7 AOA seats per DO trained. There is currently no reason why MDs can't rotate at hospitals with AOA rotations, there just isn't a lot of *sense* in it since they aren't eligible for the residency spots. I totally see the logic in opening all spots to everyone, or opening them to everyone who has qualified as sufficiently trained in osteopathic manipulation and diagnostic theory... but despite this, I gotta agree with NW here, there is some level of bias built into some schools. While we shouldn't go eye-for-an-eye, the sheer numbers argument of extreme excess vs not enough to cover everyone should keep the AOA match entirely DO for a long time still.

(though 20 years from now when demand for all spots is high, i think the combining will happen by then, if it didn't happen earlier)
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Well stated!
 
NurWollen said:
Maybe I am not playing fair, but I think it's best to keep AOA spots DO-only for now. It increases the attractiveness DO schools. Once the percieved biases are gone, then I'm all for MD students rotating at DO spots, but until then...

There are MD schools who have written on their rotation web sites that DO applicants are not accepted. So we don't really have a fair system yet.
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In so many words, I feel the same way.
 
mashmetoo said:
Does this work the other way around as well? Can Allopathic students schedule rotations at DO schools as well? Could this possibly be the beginning of MD students being able to match into AOA residencies??
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What would be the point? Part of the reason people do out of town rotations is to try and get their face in front of residency programs they are interested in applying too. If you couldn't apply to the residency program, I doubt that many allopathic med students would waste one of their three (or so) out of town months.

Out of curiosity, did DO students just apply directly to the schools in the past? I know when I log onto VSAS every school has a field that says if they accept DO and Foreign Medical students for out of town electives. Most accept DO students. I didn't realize you guys didn't have the ability to use VSAS in the past.
 
Old Grunt said:
What would be the point? Part of the reason people do out of town rotations is to try and get their face in front of residency programs they are interested in applying too. If you couldn't apply to the residency program, I doubt that many allopathic med students would waste one of their three (or so) out of town months.

Out of curiosity, did DO students just apply directly to the schools in the past? I know when I log onto VSAS every school has a field that says if they accept DO and Foreign Medical students for out of town electives. Most accept DO students. I didn't realize you guys didn't have the ability to use VSAS in the past.
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Yup. Despite VSAS pointing out if DO students are welcome (and offshores), it was for *your* information, not ours. We couldn't access VSAS and had to apply directly. From what I'm told, if it wasn't in the heart of a major metropolitan center, it was often times through phone calls, not even a different non-vsas form.
 
DocEspana said:
Yup. Despite VSAS pointing out if DO students are welcome (and offshores), it was for *your* information, not ours. We couldn't access VSAS and had to apply directly. From what I'm told, if it wasn't in the heart of a major metropolitan center, it was often times through phone calls, not even a different non-vsas form.
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I am glad that things are being made easier for you guys.

MD students have to go through that too with some institutions that aren't on VSAS (FWIW). I.E. Nebraska doesn't do VSAS period, so if you want to apply to anything in Nebraska, you have to go the paper and pencil route. Not that I minded, it was actually less of a pain in the keester than VSAS.

On the other question: I think out of simple fairness the AOA should open up their residencies to MDs. It's a little galling for those of us on this side of the fence that MD residencies have, for the most part, gone out of their way to accommodate DOs (and rightfully so), but that that courtesy hasn't been reciprocated. It would further help the prestige of the AOA residencies if their application process was perceived as being more competitive and not handicapped.

While I understand the points that are being made by the DO students on here, in truth, there is a degree of self interest in that position. I understand that as well, however, you simply can't say your position is one that is based on fairness.

Just a contrarian opinion.
 
Old Grunt said:
On the other question: I think out of simple fairness the AOA should open up their residencies to MDs. It's a little galling for those of us on this side of the fence that MD residencies have, for the most part, gone out of their way to accommodate DOs (and rightfully so), but that that courtesy hasn't been reciprocated. It would further help the prestige of the AOA residencies if their application process was perceived as being more competitive and not handicapped.
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👍
I agree - not only would it be fairer to everyone and increase the prestige of AOA residencies; it might also result in the improvement of some of the pokier AOA residencies. I am for anything that increases the homogenization of this profession's two franchises.
 
Old Grunt said:
On the other question: I think out of simple fairness the AOA should open up their residencies to MDs. It's a little galling for those of us on this side of the fence that MD residencies have, for the most part, gone out of their way to accommodate DOs (and rightfully so), but that that courtesy hasn't been reciprocated. It would further help the prestige of the AOA residencies if their application process was perceived as being more competitive and not handicapped.

While I understand the points that are being made by the DO students on here, in truth, there is a degree of self interest in that position. I understand that as well, however, you simply can't say your position is one that is based on fairness.
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I'm one of the guys who said it prob shouldn't be opened up. I actually should clarify that it *wont* be opened up for a while. As for if it should... it should. I agree there. It would give a lot more merit to the AOA residencies and thats always a good thing. I imagine an actual implementation of this would require MD candidates to have some AOA approved education in OMT techniques. Its actually not that many hours of training and a number of MD students (idk what percent, but some portion) are interested in it, just from me asking around as to who'd legitimately sign up for a 100+ hour course to be able to perform it fully.

Obviously those who go through with it would be curious why they did so to go into an AOA ophthalmology residency, but whatever. It would strengthen the whole program. I would prefer it.

But the AOA loves isolating its own interests and as long as the NRMP has a huge excess of spots, there is no pressure on them to open the AOA spots. It's not fair in the least and it does weaken the AOA residencies slightly, mostly from a competition point of view. But if it's unfair in my favor, I'm not going to come out strongly against it. haha. Maybe I'll be more vociferous on the manner once I have my residency in hand.
 
When is 2012 is this supposed to open up? I am applying to away rotations now and it sucks pretty badly having to look at every site and apply individually.
 
We've been told that it should open up this cycle if things go smoothly. We received a forwarded email from someone who coordinates VSAS. It doesn't open up till later this year anyway as far as I understand it so I wouldn't get bummed out yet. For some reason March stands out in my memory. I've only contacted one or two MD programs so far but it's because they are not on VSAS and I'm anticipating being able to use it.....granted I don't plan to use VSAS for any of my auditions...
 
Thanks that is helpful. Question about setting up rotations at DO programs. Is there something similiar to VSAS for these programs? I am finding it very hard to browse through websites to find the information I need, especially for DO programs as their websites seem a bit outdated and difficult to navigate. Finding a more efficient way would be awesome.
 
Old Grunt said:
On the other question: I think out of simple fairness the AOA should open up their residencies to MDs. It's a little galling for those of us on this side of the fence that MD residencies have, for the most part, gone out of their way to accommodate DOs (and rightfully so), but that that courtesy hasn't been reciprocated. It would further help the prestige of the AOA residencies if their application process was perceived as being more competitive and not handicapped.
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I would hope that would only happen if all DO biases were removed from ACGME ROADS residency programs. Then, I think it would be fair for AOA to open up their residencies.
 
poopyhead said:
I would hope that would only happen if all DO biases were removed from ACGME ROADS residency programs. Then, I think it would be fair for AOA to open up their residencies.
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And how do you suppose we do that? By having mandatory recruitment of DOs? ACGME ROADS receive plenty of very competitive MD requirements, so they don't have to take DO applicants unless they're stellar. It's been frequently said on these forums that if you work hard, you'll get to where you want - that's doubly true for competitive ACGME residencies.

You're also suggesting that AOA restrict all their residencies just because a subset of ACGME residencies may have a bias against DO applicants. That's still rather unequal.

With the recent trends to restrict ACGME fellowships to only those that have completed ACGME PGY-1, having AOA allow MD applicants would be good bargaining chip.
 
jinobi said:
And how do you suppose we do that? By having mandatory recruitment of DOs? ACGME ROADS receive plenty of very competitive MD requirements, so they don't have to take DO applicants unless they're stellar. It's been frequently said on these forums that if you work hard, you'll get to where you want - that's doubly true for competitive ACGME residencies.

You're also suggesting that AOA restrict all their residencies just because a subset of ACGME residencies may have a bias against DO applicants. That's still rather unequal.

With the recent trends to restrict ACGME fellowships to only those that have completed ACGME PGY-1, having AOA allow MD applicants would be good bargaining chip.
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Well, given the DO bias in ACGME ROADS (requiring higher board scores, ect..), AOA residencies are the predominant way for DOs to get those residencies.

I guess what would be technically "equal" then would be for PDs of AOA ROADS to prefer DOs, like PDs of AGCME ROADs to prefer MDs.
 
poopyhead said:
I would hope that would only happen if all DO biases were removed from ACGME ROADS residency programs. Then, I think it would be fair for AOA to open up their residencies.
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Dont forget that name brand means something as well. These rotations argue they are taking the most qualified students and not showing any degree bias. If you have a 270, guess waht, someone else applying for an exclusive residency does too. Probably many others. And many of them are from name brand schools. They arent discriminating by degree, they are weighing in where you went to. Should it mean something, objectively no. Does it mean something? Yea, it means someone who generally gets "first pick" selected you at the med student level, so it speaks well of your consistancy if you've already shown success on the boards as well. In this analysis, there is no bias (though honestly, there is actual bias, but i think its overstated) there is simply "history" and DO schools dont have the history.
 
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