Wake Forest the First Med School to Require SPANISH

[Diogenes]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by matthew0126:
•but that's the whole point -- people should be able to have a choice, and here they don't. what if the only chool you get accepted to is wake forest?? these people have no choice about learning spanish or not. learning spanish is great, it should be highly recommended, and it's a definite route that i will take in the future -- but the guy practicing in a zero-hispanic population district has no need for it and should not be forced to take it. what if he's moving to a german-speaking area? that time he's spending on learning spanish could be used to learn german.
•••••You don't get MY point. My point is that taking a medical spanish course is now part of the *cost* of going to Wake Forest. And just like any other *cost* people should decide whether or not going to that school is worth it. If it is not worth it to you, then don't go, even if it's the only school you got into.

If I said "the only school I got into is more expensive than the ones I didn't get into" nobody would respond "well then you should have the choice of paying the full tuition or a lesser amount." But you are proposing that people should have the right to *pay* less than the *cost* of going to that school. You are saying that you know what the *cost* should be better than the people that run the medical school. That's not right. You take the classes that are required, and the required classes are chosen by the faculty as what they feel is important for people practicing medicine in the United States at the current time. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to attend med school in general or any one med school in particular.

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[warpath]

Este traductor es tan agradable. Yo ahora puedo hablar alrededor seis idiomas por la noche

 

[matthew0126]

ah... i have a whole good counterargument in my head, but i'll just drop it

spanish is good... mmkay

•••quote:•••Originally posted by bjc:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by matthew0126:
•but that's the whole point -- people should be able to have a choice, and here they don't. what if the only chool you get accepted to is wake forest?? these people have no choice about learning spanish or not. learning spanish is great, it should be highly recommended, and it's a definite route that i will take in the future -- but the guy practicing in a zero-hispanic population district has no need for it and should not be forced to take it. what if he's moving to a german-speaking area? that time he's spending on learning spanish could be used to learn german.
•••••You don't get MY point. My point is that taking a medical spanish course is now part of the *cost* of going to Wake Forest. And just like any other *cost* people should decide whether or not going to that school is worth it. If it is not worth it to you, then don't go, even if it's the only school you got into.

If I said "the only school I got into is more expensive than the ones I didn't get into" nobody would respond "well then you should have the choice of paying the full tuition or a lesser amount." But you are proposing that people should have the right to *pay* less than the *cost* of going to that school. You are saying that you know what the *cost* should be better than the people that run the medical school. That's not right. You take the classes that are required, and the required classes are chosen by the faculty as what they feel is important for people practicing medicine in the United States at the current time. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to attend med school in general or any one med school in particular.•••••

 

[jmejia1]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by matthew0126:
•JEMJIA1, i'd like to ask, what school will *you* be going to in the future? .•••••[/QB][/QUOTE]

Matthew, I can tell you what school I won't be going to. I think you made my decision easier and I won't be going UCSD; I would hate to have insensitive classmates like yourself. In case you haven't realized, as a third and fourth year you'll be interacting with many many Spanish speaking patients at San Diego, and I don't want to be around to witness your bedside manners with this population.

 

[matthew0126]

what's really sad about all this is it's a misunderstanding. if you go back and read my posts, you'll realize that

summarized:
my first post -- spanish is great, i love the spanish culture. i'm going to learn spanish in the future. it's very important for med schools to recommend but i don't think they should force it on some1 that will not need it in the future.

i only got mad when you accused me of saying a lot of other things that i did not say -- in fact, it was other sdn'ers that said those things.

anyways, it's sad that you mistakenly mistake me for an insensitive individual when that's so not the truth. but i'm relieved that i will not be going to school with some1 that is so quick to judge and label ne1 that disagrees with them a racist. you remind me of joe mccarthy from the 50's. regardless, best of luck in the future as a doctor, and i am sure you will use your great energy to serve the hispanic population to do great good.

•••quote:•••Originally posted by jmejia1:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by matthew0126:
•JEMJIA1, i'd like to ask, what school will *you* be going to in the future? .••••••••••Matthew, I can tell you what school I won't be going to. I think you made my decision easier and I won't be going UCSD; I would hate to have insensitive classmates like yourself. In case you haven't realized, as a third and fourth year you'll be interacting with many many Spanish speaking patients at San Diego, and I don't want to be around to witness your bedside manners with this population.[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[mongoose]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by WaitingImpatiently:
•America is supposedly the best country in the world. THAT'S why people move here, not so that they can learn to speak English.

But yes, I do think that more people should at least make an effort to learn the language. However, my parents don't know English very well. They can get by in small talk and casual conversation, but they probably would need a translator if their doctor spoke only English. Fortunately for them, there are TONS of Chinese-speaking docs here in LA.•••••Based on my own experiences with chinese people, I bet my last dollar your parents are bending over backwards trying to learn english. Every chinese immigrant I have ever known has had the utmost respect for america and it's customs and values. In fact, my research professor is chinese and so is a postdoctoral researcher in our group. The research professor told the post-doc never to speak chinese in our lab, because not everyone could understand and it would not be of much benefit to the group as a whole. I was astounded and amazed by the respect this man showed toward this country in that one simple action. Needless to say, my opinoin of him is very very high. long live the chinese!!

 

[Doctora Foxy]

Just another thought...my interviewer at Chicago Med was also a Spainsh major like me and he said it can work against you. Whie you are trying to see your patients, you will often get pulled away so you can translate for everyone when another translator can't be found. In addition, my boyfriend's mother is a nurse and she always gets pulled away from her duties to translate for patients. So I guess there is a negative to every positive.....

 

[maripils]

A few comments on the current discussion:

1) The definition of "Americans" as people who were born here, is quite erroneous in many ways. First of all, watch your choice of words: "America" spans 2 continents and many different languages. For most countries in "America," the official language is Spanish. Leaving this issue aside, you should note that some of the most significant contributors to this country have not been born here. Many individuals who have not been born in the U.S. become U.S. citizens. Are you saying that these people are not legitimately American? By the way, they are required to have a functional level of English to become naturalized, as well as an understanding of American culture and history --probably more than most born-Americans ever have.

2) Unfortunately, it is very difficult to become a U.S. citizen, and it takes a long time to even become a permanent resident. Many immigrants, specifically Hispanic/Latino immigrants, do not "choose" to come to the U.S. because they think the U.S. is wonderful and want to acquire a new culture. Many come here because their political, social, or financial situation at home is unbearable and they need to do something about it. Many men and women come by themselves, leaving families behind, and working multiple low-pay, hazardous, part-time jobs which means that they lack health insurance, and they are more prone to become injured or ill, suffer from depression, and require medical care. They lack their family support group that is so crucial in Hispanic/Latino culture, and they sometimes have to send whatever little money they make to their families in their home country. You can imagine that medical care is far from a priority for these individuals. And after working all these jobs, how much time/money do you think is left for an English class?

3) If you are going to be a doctor, I would suggest that you shake off your ignorant superiority complexes both about medicine and about "your" American culture. It is to your advantage to become familiar with your patient population in terms of their culture, language, and needs. There are not many things more humbling and frustrating for a physician than being in a situation where there is absolutely nothing you can do for your patient because you have no clue what he/she is trying to communicate to you. Even relying on an interpreter means giving up some patient confidentiality and your control over the medical interview (how can you be sure of what the interpreter is communicating to your patient?).

4) Clearly, it is unreasonable to expect every physician to learn every language represented within their patient populations. However, when your patient population consists largely of Hispanics/Latinos, it is in everybody's interest that the healthcare provider learn Spanish. (By the way, Iowa actually has one of the largest and fastest growing Hispanic/Latino populations in the U.S.) Nonetheless, in a country like the U.S., even if you try to run away from diversity, you are bound to be faced with a patient with whom you do not have a language in common. This does not mean you cannot treat the patient well... but it does mean that you are (or should be) taking on the extra challenge of learning something about that patient's culture and background in order to gain an adequate understanding of their problem and to provide adequate treatment. This is called CULTURAL COMPETENCY. Training in general cultural competency is something that every health professional ought to be exposed to. If anyone would like more resources on the subject, I would be happy to help.

On the topics of cultural competency and things that should be required for medical students, I'd recommend that everyone read the book: The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong child, her American doctors, and the collision of two cultures, by Anne Fadiman.

 

[Doctora Foxy]

That was an excellent post. Thank you Welcome to SDN

 

[jmejia1]

Nice work, maripils. I couldn't have said it any better.

 

[brontehardyeliot]

Thank you, maripils!

 

[mongoose]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by maripils:
•A few comments on the current discussion:

1) The definition of "Americans" as people who were born here, is quite erroneous in many ways. First of all, watch your choice of words: "America" spans 2 continents and many different languages. For most countries in "America," the official language is Spanish. Leaving this issue aside, you should note that some of the most significant contributors to this country have not been born here. Many individuals who have not been born in the U.S. become U.S. citizens. Are you saying that these people are not legitimately American? By the way, they are required to have a functional level of English to become naturalized, as well as an understanding of American culture and history --probably more than most born-Americans ever have.

2) Unfortunately, it is very difficult to become a U.S. citizen, and it takes a long time to even become a permanent resident. Many immigrants, specifically Hispanic/Latino immigrants, do not "choose" to come to the U.S. because they think the U.S. is wonderful and want to acquire a new culture. Many come here because their political, social, or financial situation at home is unbearable and they need to do something about it. Many men and women come by themselves, leaving families behind, and working multiple low-pay, hazardous, part-time jobs which means that they lack health insurance, and they are more prone to become injured or ill, suffer from depression, and require medical care. They lack their family support group that is so crucial in Hispanic/Latino culture, and they sometimes have to send whatever little money they make to their families in their home country. You can imagine that medical care is far from a priority for these individuals. And after working all these jobs, how much time/money do you think is left for an English class?

3) If you are going to be a doctor, I would suggest that you shake off your ignorant superiority complexes both about medicine and about "your" American culture. It is to your advantage to become familiar with your patient population in terms of their culture, language, and needs. There are not many things more humbling and frustrating for a physician than being in a situation where there is absolutely nothing you can do for your patient because you have no clue what he/she is trying to communicate to you. Even relying on an interpreter means giving up some patient confidentiality and your control over the medical interview (how can you be sure of what the interpreter is communicating to your patient?).

4) Clearly, it is unreasonable to expect every physician to learn every language represented within their patient populations. However, when your patient population consists largely of Hispanics/Latinos, it is in everybody's interest that the healthcare provider learn Spanish. (By the way, Iowa actually has one of the largest and fastest growing Hispanic/Latino populations in the U.S.) Nonetheless, in a country like the U.S., even if you try to run away from diversity, you are bound to be faced with a patient with whom you do not have a language in common. This does not mean you cannot treat the patient well... but it does mean that you are (or should be) taking on the extra challenge of learning something about that patient's culture and background in order to gain an adequate understanding of their problem and to provide adequate treatment. This is called CULTURAL COMPETENCY. Training in general cultural competency is something that every health professional ought to be exposed to. If anyone would like more resources on the subject, I would be happy to help.

On the topics of cultural competency and things that should be required for medical students, I'd recommend that everyone read the book: The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down: A Hmong child, her American doctors, and the collision of two cultures, by Anne Fadiman.•••••1. By Americans, I mean citizens of the United States of America. LIke you did not know this already.

2. I have witnessed it all, pal. I used to work in a factory that employed a VERY large number of hispanics. I even proposed to upper management that the company provide some basic English classes for the hispanic workers so that everyone could work more efficiently. I have witnessed these hispanic workers bust their asses all day to earn money, and then turn around and send practically all of it to family in Mexico. There is nothing wrong with that. I applaud it. What I am saying is for those that don't make an effort to fit in to their new culture. These types of people do exist. I have witnessed it first hand. There were several workers at that factory who simply made no effort to learn english. How do I know this? Because when I conversed with other hispanic coworkers that speak english, they would tell me so...In fact, there was one that had worked there for over a year and did not know a single word of english. And he had fellow hispanics that were willing and able to teach him. He just did not want to learn. These are the types of people that don't belong here, in my opinion.

3. There is no superiority complex about it, pal. I have said it before and I will say it again: If they want to come to our country and make an attempt to fit in by learning our language and our culture and customs, then they are more than welcome in my book. No one is ripping latino culture or any other culture. I never said hispanics suck or anything of the sort. I have many multicultural friends and I love them every one.

 

[vixen]

mar-

Of course you'll be bound with only knowing English...and if you know English and spanish, you'll be bound compared to someone who knows english,spanish and chinese...etc.

My point is that learning a second language should be SECOND...I think they should offer it to all the students and the ones that are interested can take it. I don't see the need for making it a requirement. What other professional/grad schools make it a requirement? I don't know of any dental, pharmacy, law (not sure about this one), etc schools making it a requirement. If my dental school had the options of either a business class or a spanish class, I'd take the business class cause I'm more interested in that. Like I said, I think offering that is wonderful (and the more languages offered is even better!), but I don't know why its REQUIRED.

 

[THE instiGATOR]

vixen & mongoose,

It's obvious that a lot of people who have posted on this thread have not read or have not understood what has been typed by you and I. You will gain no ground by responding to them. Everyone's got an opinion, and most like to express it...even if it isn't relevant.

BTW, my birthday sucked. Thanks for remembering, though, vixen. Only 6 people, other than myself, bothered to post on your thread. Wonder what that means! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

 

[mshheaddoc]

I guess with other countries (like Europe) who speak their native language and at least one other, that doesn't matter. I don't believe that it should be mandatory in med school, but I don't think it will hurt. Especially with the increasing hispanic culture in the US ... I don't see why people wouldn't want to expand their minds ....

Great post mar!

 

[Mighty Mac]

Given the choice between a doctor that spent his time learning a second language or learning more about medicine, I'll take the Dr with more medical training.

Living in San Diego, it amazes me the number of 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans that don't speak english. The problem I have is not that it is disrespectful, but they are making themselves a permanent underclass by not learning english. To me making Spanish a requirement in medschool is ridiculous, lets make english a requirement in elementary school and level the playing field for all people when they become adults.

 

[Michelys]

Welcome to SDN maripils. I'm glad you came up with a considerate and sensitive opinion for your first post. SDN is a great place...so don't be deterred by all the negative comments you're getting from people that obviously can't argue constructively and respectfully.

There are ways to go about debating without insulting other cultures. I'm a mainland Puerto Rican and proud American and I don't think I've posted much on this thread due to how highly insulted I am by it.

If I worked as a physician in a Chinese community, I would attempt to learn some basic Chinese and also hire an interpreter for proficiency. As physicians we will all have to keep our patients in mind whether they be Greek, Russian, American-born, or Mexican.

I think what's most insulting is how many are beligerently referring to America as the United States. Take a blasted history class. A further slap in the face is the notion of assimilating to 'our' culture. Now I ask you, what the hell is "American" culture?! Gimme a break. We have so many wonderful ethnicities and cultures within our diverse land that to boil them down to whether you speak English or not is ridiculous. Have some respect for the rest of us please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

 

[Doctora Foxy]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mighty Mac:
•
Living in San Diego, it amazes me the number of 2nd and 3rd generation Mexican-Americans that don't speak english. •••••Excerpt from the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo:

<a href="http://www.azteca.net/aztec/guadhida.html" target="_blank">http://www.azteca.net/aztec/guadhida.html</a>

•••quote:••• ARTICLE VIII

Mexicans now established in territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States, as defined by the present treaty, shall be free to continue where they now reside, or to remove at any time to the Mexican Republic, retaining the property which they possess in the said territories, or disposing thereof, and removing the proceeds wherever they please, without their being subjected, on this account, to any contribution, tax, or charge whatever.

Those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens, or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But they shall be under the obligation to make their election within one year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty; and those who shall remain in the said territories after the expiration of that year, without having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans, shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of the United States.

••••What is not said above in the treaty is that Mexicans living in the US' newly acquired land were never informed of the change. They were forced to either become American citizens or move away from their homeland (to the newly defined Mexico). They were here first---why are you so surprised they haven't learned English? It was THEIR land first. But I agree that it is unfortunate that not knowing English prevents them from obtaining higher paying jobs. Just wanted to bring a little history into the conversation.

 

[THE instiGATOR]

I think the people for whom that was written have long since croaked, Foxy. Therefore, it's EXPIRED!

 

[Mighty Mac]

So because Cali was part of Mexico a 100+ years ago they shouldn't speak english? Thats the kinda thinking that will make these people a permanent underclass. Times change and people have to change with them or get left behind.

 

[Michelys]

Mighty Mac...the thing that makes Mexicans what I believe you call second class citizens is the fact that many are CONTINUALLY EXPLOITED and have been for about 100 years working for the produce we all eat--not the fact that they don't know English. Por favor!

 

[THE instiGATOR]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•Mighty Mac...the thing that makes Mexicans what I believe you call second class citizens is the fact that many are CONTINUALLY EXPLOITED and have been for about 100 years working for the produce we all eat--not the fact that they don't know English. Por favor! •••••Everyone wants to be a victim.

If you've got two things going against you and you can control one, CONTROL IT!!!

 

[vixen]

I still have not heard one good argument here on why it should be a requirement, as opposed to just an option.

 

[Michelys]

If you all are so irritated as to why it's a requirement, why don't you just email the adcomm at Wake Forest and ask for their argument?! I'd be interested as to their reasons behind doing it.

I personally would love to learn another language and would be dissapointed since I already have Spanish as an asset .

Gator...Oh and yes everyone 'wants' to be a victim. I sure would love to be oppressed too.

 

[Doctora Foxy]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by vixen:
•I still have not heard one good argument here on why it should be a requirement, as opposed to just an option.•••••Because it's Wake Forest's medical school and they can do what they want. They may be trying to recruit doctors to serve Hispanics more efficiently. It's their perogative.
UF, for example, requires students to learn about rural medicine b/c it's in a rural area. Well, I'm not interested in rural med, but that's their curriculum, so what can I do? If you don't like the school's curriculum, don't apply there. Schools serve their own needs, and in this case, the needs of the community in which they are located.

 

[mongoose]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Michelys:
•
There are ways to go about debating without insulting other cultures. I'm a mainland Puerto Rican and proud American and I don't think I've posted much on this thread due to how highly insulted I am by it.

I think what's most insulting is how many are beligerently referring to America as the United States. Take a blasted history class. A further slap in the face is the notion of assimilating to 'our' culture. Now I ask you, what the hell is "American" culture?! Gimme a break. We have so many wonderful ethnicities and cultures within our diverse land that to boil them down to whether you speak English or not is ridiculous. Have some respect for the rest of us please. •••••First, I never insulted another culture and no one else has (if you don't include the post from you that I just quoted).

Second, America IS the United States. NORTH America includes Canada, Mexico, etc.

Third, American culture is how the "average" American lives thier life. So, I guess you could make the argument that McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and capitalism is American culture...I guess what you re saying is that because America has not existed for ten thousand years, then it can not have culture. HA...that is pretty damn short-sighted.

 

[Michelys]

NO bozo what I meant was that there is no one specific American culture...there are many. Is that simple enough for you or was that still too complicated? And by the way the Americas include North, Central, and South America, not just the United States. You should be more specific.

 

[vixen]

damn, some of you premeds are fu(king neurotic! Obviously the school can force whatever requirement upon the class. If you're so interested in spanish etc, GOOD FOR YOU!!! NOT EVERYBODY IS!!! I've taken it and I have no interest in taking it again...if I went to a dental school where I was forced to, its really not a big deal, but I think its better when schools give you more options of what classes to take. If I had an option of a spanish class, business class, ethics class etc, I'd prob pick the others over spanish BECAUSE I'M NOT INTERESTED IN IT. Luckily no dental schools require it (as I know so far)...and I'm wondering if ANY other grad/professional school requires it? I really don't see the big contraversy here...some of you people who are die-hard spanish speakers need to stop try and forcing your narrow-minded opinion onto everyone.

 

[coop]

vixen, yes, this discussion has gone beyond simply the fact that one school made it a REQUIREMENT. It is not a horrible offense that some people are raising issues in this thread that are not 100% related to answering the initial question.

I think that if a school feels it is important for it's students to learn some spanish in order to survive the clinical years at their school because of a largely spanish-monolingual population, then that's great, and their choice. I think it's kinda silly to do it the last 4 weeks of 4th year, because why not give them a little spanish before they hit the wards initially?

Mongoose, you have shared many times your desire to deport these people who do not attempt to assimilate into "american" culture. I have 2 problems with this attitude. First is that we are physicians and future physicians, we are not the INS, our job is to treat health related concerns, so I don't understand why this is a concern of yours in your capacity as a physician? Second, do you know what would happen if we deported all these non-assimilating people? They fuel our economy by taking the jobs that most people do not want to take. These millions of people are necessary to the functioning of our country. Our country has always used recent immigrants as a source of cheap labor. In places, at times, it has been german, irish, african, chinese, and others. Now hispanics make up a large chunk of this labor pool.

As maripils pointed out (welcome to SDN, thanks for the informative post) after working these jobs, few of these people have the time to learn english. Some of them want to and don't have the time/resources, some of them don't want to because they are too concerned with making enough money to send home, and some of them might not be in this country by choice and want to leave but don't even have the resources to do that. No matter what their personal situation is these people can get sick, and I hope when they go to the doctor, they are helped as best as possible, with adequate translation services and not threatened to be deported.

Another point I would like to make is that the civil rights act included prohibiting discrimination based on national origin. This has been interpreted to mean that all publically funded facilities (including hospitals) are required to provide adequate translation services. Many hospitals are struggling with this now because only recently has it become a large enough issue to begin enforcement.

thanks for considering my points.

 

[vixen]

I hear ya coop...its just that there was a very similar thread on here about "turning non-english speakers away"...so I was focusing more on the OP.

Anyways, I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never turn down anyone for not speaking English, but it would be real nice if more immigrants did speak English or better English. Although I'm all for diversity/culture/etc., its sometimes annoying if I'm at a store and the people who work there barely speak any English. I know there are reasons to as why they don't ($$$, time, effort,etc), but all I'm saying is that it sure would be nice. IMHO, if I moved to another country, I would expect to learn a new language.

I'm sure if some of you had foreign doctors, you'd probably want them to speak better English. Although english is my mom's second language (she only has a slight accent), I would think its ridiculous if she hadn't learned english properly so her patients could understand her. Other jobs that immigrants work at involve dealing with people, it seems like the right thing to do is learn the country's language if you're going to live there. To expect everyone else to speak your language is kinda ridiculous If an immigrant didn't want to learn English, maybe they should seek out their language-speaking doctors.

 

[guavero]

Hey guys,

This will be officially my second post in this forum. It's very interesting to read what other premedical students think about the role of foreign language in the practice of medicine. I have to say that y'all got very good points and insights

I was at a conference this past Friday talking on infectious diseases and the keynote speaker spoke about the demographics of new immigrants (as part of importing emerging infectious disease into the US)... It was quite alarming (for me at least) to see that the greatest ethnic group coming into the United States are Latin Americans. By enlarge their presence in the US is far greater than most if not all ethnic groups. Therefore, it is understandable why some schools will require Spanish as course.

I think ultimately knowing different languages (not just Spanish) should ease the daily work of a physician, especially for coming up with a sound diagnosis of the disease. After all, misunderstandings and malinterpretations due to language barrier could be a high risk factor for clinical malpractice.

BTW, just fyi... English happens to be my 2nd language, and I'm from Central America.



El Tico