Walmart to open a DENTAL clinic.

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Cold Front

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Walmart hired executives from insurance companies to help lead dental services under Walmart Health program.

“.... first appointments are available on Sept. 13”


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There is a market for this, and as much as dentists don’t want to see those Walmart customers, Walmart will see them - for all their needs; medical, vision, pharmacy, dentistry and their groceries - all in 1.
 
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It was only a matter of time. There is certainly a market for this type of healthcare but the patient population who wants to get the cheapest care possible on Sunday afternoon at Walmart is no different than those who go to Aspen and the likes. The difference with a corporation like Walmart is that they aren't relying solely on dental treatment for profit since this is just a sub-specialty of a much broader set of goods that Walmart makes their profits from. I wonder how this environment will vary from working at other dental-specific corporations, and how they will manage production goals of the doctors working there.
 
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It was only a matter of time. There is certainly a market for this type of healthcare but the patient population who wants to get the cheapest care possible on Sunday afternoon at Walmart is no different than those who go to Aspen and the likes. The difference with a corporation like Walmart is that they aren't relying solely on dental treatment for profit since this is just a sub-specialty of a much broader set of goods that Walmart makes their profits from. I wonder how this environment will vary from working at other dental-specific corporations, and how they will manage production goals of the doctors working there.
It will come down to demographics and socioeconomic status. Some people just simply refuse to shop at Walmart because it’s beneath them. The tiers are; dollar stores, Walmart, Target, then Whole Foods and above. It’s a price hierarchy based service industry, and dentistry will eventually be broken up to those levels too. I can see Target offering dental services in the future.
 
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Can I get a root canal with my Takis?
 
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There is a market for this, and as much as dentists don’t want to see those Walmart customers, Walmart will see them - for all their needs; medical, vision, pharmacy, dentistry and their groceries - all in 1.
So this new Walmart's move shouldn't affect most private practice owners because they don't want to treat the type of patients, whom Walmart wants to target, anyway. This will probably hurt a few owners like me because a large percentage of the patients in our practices are this type of patients. This should create more job opportunities for dental assistants, office managers, new grad dentists and dentists, who don't want to open their own offices.
 
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It will come down to demographics and socioeconomic status. Some people just simply refuse to shop at Walmart because it’s beneath them. The tiers are; dollar stores, Walmart, Target, then Whole Foods and above. It’s a price hierarchy based service industry, and dentistry will eventually be broken up to those levels too. I can see Target offering dental services in the future.
My wife loves Walmart and Target. They have very convenient store hours. They are places where she gets most of the school supplies for our kids and office supplies for our practices. I don't shop at Walmart as often as before because of Amazon and Ebay.
 
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I don't think this is a big deal.

The bigger issue is dental "insurance."
 
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Another step for corporatization healthcare. CVS will move in further to the health service sector as well. Don't underestimate them and the people's pockets.
 
a large percentage of the patients in our practices are this type of patients. This should create more job opportunities for dental assistants, office managers, new grad dentists and dentists, who don't want to open their own offices.
Well, this is a generational thing. The current generation have more low socioeconomic people than previous generation, and there will be even more people in lowest socioeconomic status in the future. A dollar store opens every 6 hours in this country, and it’s actually hurting those people to keep them in that status than it’s actually helping. Corporations understand this, and to simply paint this picture in more abstract way - top 3 richest people in this country are worth more than the bottom 50% of people in this country. Walmart sees the potential in that market, and they see their growth depends on it because the middle class is shrinking and the wealthy will never shop at Walmart. As far as dental workforce, Walmart will be another DSO if their dental business takes off. And just like DSO’s, they will all be about the bottom line than quality. There will be more push for dental therapists, currently 1 in 4 states have them, but they will be a good fit for the remote towns and rural areas to practice - because 90% of America lives within 5-10 miles of a Walmart.
 
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My wife loves Walmart and Target. They have very convenient store hours. They are places where she gets most of the school supplies for our kids and office supplies for our practices. I don't shop at Walmart as often as before because of Amazon and Ebay.
I haven’t been inside a Walmart store for years. Their parking lots are the biggest problem for me; too many cars and I have seen a fair share of people who can’t drive and park properly on their properties and damage other people’s cars. I love Target, a more balanced and less crowded atmosphere for me. The in and out process is much faster, and the service is more superior in my opinion. An interesting study found that every time a Walmart store opens, the residents in that neighborhood’s BMI and obesity levels goes up. There are many communities that have ordinances that bars Walmart from opening a store in their township. Walmart still competes on E-commerce level with amazon and other big retailers. As far as brick and mortar competition, Walmart is still taking the lion share of grocery store shopping - about half of every $1 spent.
 
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I don't think this is a big deal.

The bigger issue is dental "insurance."
Dentistry is under attack at all levels. Dentist salaries and income will continue to fall behind inflation, primarily due to dental insurances that cut and reduce reimbursements every year and the opening of new schools, increase in foreign dentists and almost every dentist who want to practice in an already saturated cities.
 
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Corporations understand this, and to simply paint this picture in more abstract way - top 3 richest people in this country are worth more than the bottom 50% of people in this country. Walmart sees the potential in that market, and they see their growth depends on it because the middle class is shrinking and the wealthy will never shop at Walmart.
I too target the same type of patients that the DSO's want to target…the same type of patient that most of my colleagues don’t want to treat. I love my Hispanic patients. They don't make a lot of money but they love their kids and are willing to pay me.....they don’t bargain like some of my Asian patients. I love the fact that Hispanic parents have a lot of kids. My patients rarely complain. Because they trust their doctor, they rarely ask a bunch of stupid nonsense questions….they just let me do my job and the clinic flows smoothly. I hate treating high income patients. They read stuff on the internet and they think they are smarter than the doctor. They dictate the tx plans. They yell at the receptionists and they demand the doctor to treat them at their own convenient time etc.

I don’t mind competing against the corps because there are a lot things that I can do better than them:

- My overhead is much lower than theirs. I don’t need to hire a bunch of low level managers, mid level managers. One manager, whom I pay $18/hr, and 5-6 P/T assistants are all I need. I do my own work and keep all the $$$ that I collect from my patients. The corps have to pay big bucks to hire associate orthodontists. My rents are lower. My electricity bills are lower. I don't have to pay for expensive advertisements.

- Because my overhead is low, I can I offer low fee tx like the corps....I can accept a variety of insurance plans like the corps. Additionally, I offer interest-free payment plan for all my patients. Unlike the corps, I don’t do credit check and I don’t require the patients to have a checking account for autodraft.

- My office offers better customer service. When patients call the office, they talk to my receptionist….not some 800 numbers that put them on hold forever. Patients see one orthodontist (me) at my office. Patients see different orthodontists, who have conflicting tx plans, at the corps because orthdontists come and go at the corps.

- Higher quality care. Since my practice depends heavily on word-of-mouth referrals, I have to try to do my best to keep my patients happy.
 
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Well, this is a generational thing. The current generation have more low socioeconomic people than previous generation, and there will be even more people in lowest socioeconomic status in the future. A dollar store opens every 6 hours in this country, and it’s actually hurting those people to keep them in that status than it’s actually helping. Corporations understand this, and to simply paint this picture in more abstract way - top 3 richest people in this country are worth more than the bottom 50% of people in this country. Walmart sees the potential in that market, and they see their growth depends on it because the middle class is shrinking and the wealthy will never shop at Walmart. As far as dental workforce, Walmart will be another DSO if their dental business takes off. And just like DSO’s, they will all be about the bottom line than quality. There will be more push for dental therapists, currently 1 in 4 states have them, but they will be a good fit for the remote towns and rural areas to practice - because 90% of America lives within 5-10 miles of a Walmart.

Corporations are already slowly but surely moving rural. If this takes off though then there won't be such thing as "moving rural to avoid corporate competition". As much as this is an attack on our profession, I think that a growing portion of the population are realizing that going to a Groupon dental clinic is not in their best interest.

Check out this reddit thread on r/personalfinance that was the most upvoted post this week:



Most of the comments are the same story:
"I went to a chain dental clinic because my dentist stopped taking my insurance, the cheap dental clinic wouldn't do my cleaning until I signed the bottom of a $5,000 treatment plan though. It was cheaper to go back to my old dentist." That's paraphrasing but there are several of these comments in that thread.

Some of the comments say more about what that population thinks of us dentists in general (greedy, over-diagnosing car mechanics), but for the most part the thread comes to the conclusion that finding an honest solo dentist with personalized care is the best route.

People who browse Reddit are mostly millennials (64% of users are between the age of 18-29) although I am not sure what the average socioeconomic status generally is for reddit users. I would imagine that those who browse r/personalfinance are more cognizant about wealth building however.
 
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Corporations are already slowly but surely moving rural. If this takes off though then there won't be such thing as "moving rural to avoid corporate competition". As much as this is an attack on our profession, I think that a growing portion of the population are realizing that going to a Groupon dental clinic is not in their best interest.

Check out this reddit thread on r/personalfinance that was the most upvoted post this week:



Most of the comments are the same story:
"I went to a chain dental clinic because my dentist stopped taking my insurance, the cheap dental clinic wouldn't do my cleaning until I signed the bottom of a $5,000 treatment plan though. It was cheaper to go back to my old dentist." That's paraphrasing but there are several of these comments in that thread.

Some of the comments say more about what that population thinks of us dentists in general (greedy, over-diagnosing car mechanics), but for the most part the thread comes to the conclusion that finding an honest solo dentist with personalized care is the best route.

People who browse Reddit are mostly millennials (64% of users are between the age of 18-29) although I am not sure what the average socioeconomic status generally is for reddit users. I would imagine that those who browse r/personalfinance are more cognizant about wealth building however.

This is probably why dentistry won't get completely taken over by corp. Patients need to trust their practitioner, this isn't like pharmacy or optometry.
 
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I think most of you are missing the point though. Why do these Corps exist and why are they proliferating? One reason is that many of you would not treat the lower reimbursement, lower income patients. The "I'm too good to walk into a Walmart" type of dentist. The original Corps saw a niche of patients (low income) that no one else wanted to treat. These patients typically have poor dental health and of course ..... the treatment plan is going to be extensive. No one is forcing them to do anything. I can attest to you that there is an endless number of these low income patients flocking to the Corps. As for customer service at these low income serving Corps. There is very little. Corps don't care since if they piss off one patient ..... 10 will take their place.

Most dentists would have been happy if the Corps just treated low income patients, but the Corps decided to expand their footprint and NOW ....... dentists are pissed. Trust me. I was too when I was in private practice.

Regardless of what everyone says. Corps are here to stay. They started with low income patients and are now going after middle income patients and higher. The Corp model is successful because the general public has accepted it.

I had it good before Align tech, SDC existed. These CORP entities have altered the ortho industry forever. I do not recall any GPs discussing the terrible things about these Corp entities. Especially Align tech when it 1st came onto the scene.

Can't pick and choose based on how it affects you.
 
I think most of you are missing the point though. Why do these Corps exist and why are they proliferating? One reason is that many of you would not treat the lower reimbursement, lower income patients. The "I'm too good to walk into a Walmart" type of dentist. The original Corps saw a niche of patients (low income) that no one else wanted to treat. These patients typically have poor dental health and of course ..... the treatment plan is going to be extensive. No one is forcing them to do anything. I can attest to you that there is an endless number of these low income patients flocking to the Corps. As for customer service at these low income serving Corps. There is very little. Corps don't care since if they piss off one patient ..... 10 will take their place.

Most dentists would have been happy if the Corps just treated low income patients, but the Corps decided to expand their footprint and NOW ....... dentists are pissed. Trust me. I was too when I was in private practice.

Regardless of what everyone says. Corps are here to stay. They started with low income patients and are now going after middle income patients and higher. The Corp model is successful because the general public has accepted it.

I had it good before Align tech, SDC existed. These CORP entities have altered the ortho industry forever. I do not recall any GPs discussing the terrible things about these Corp entities. Especially Align tech when it 1st came onto the scene.

Can't pick and choose based on how it affects you.
Part of the Corporate evolution in dentistry is because - from their investors perspective, healthcare industry is projected to grow exponentially in the future and considered to be recession proof. Hence, more corporate players entering dentistry and opening shops everywhere.

Dentistry is more of a service sector, and the likes of SDC heavily relied on technology (they wouldn’t exist pre-2010) to grow so fast and will become a public company next month. To secure funding from private equities, SDC openly claimed and pitched to their investors that the average treatment plan is around six months, significantly shorter than the 12 to 24 months a traditional course of braces would take. They also claimed its program costs up to 60% less than the traditional course of orthodontic braces, under their business model. Wouldn’t you invest in such company if you were not a dentist? That’s how CVS allowed SDC to have kiosks and their products in their stores.

I also noticed the future of healthcare will be more available in where people shop. All top grocery and pharmacy chains have medical clinics, and are now calling those departments CVS Health, Walmart Health, Walgreens Health and so on. With such existing platform for their clients, it’s easier to incorporate dentistry to it - SDC is already doing that. Walgreens is working with Aspen Dental to join their Walgreen Health program. Walmart is entering this space because they know they need to keep up with the competition - because a customer lost to Walgreens or CVS for a dental service will shop more products and services at those stores. So for Walmart, the dental service move is for existing customers retention and trying to get more people through their front door. If anyone can do the dental service model in retail stores, it will be Walmart - because of everything else they already have.

Ultimately, this story is more about how these large corporations want to evolve, grow and compete against each other, and less about what dentists (non-evolving people) are doing to save dentistry. The next generation of dentists will not refuse $300k job offer from Walmart and Target - which is exactly what happened to the Pharmacy profession.
 
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I do not see an end to the corporatization of the service, commodity and now .... health industry. We can all say that as patients .... we would rather see mom and pop private health providers. But every day ...... we as consumers are drawn into using Corporate type business'. Every time we use Amazon, Uber, Lyft, SDC, Facebook, Twitter, Hospitals, Urgent Care, LensCrafters, Safeway, Whole Foods, Walmart, CVS, Walgreens, etc. etc. etc. we slowly validate Corp business and add to the demise of mom and pops. I'm guilty myself. I shop at the big box PGA Superstore rather than the local mom and pop golf shop. Why? More stuff at the big box. I shop at Costco, AJs, Whole Foods rather than the local Farmer's market. I go to LensCrafters for my glasses. I see Amazon packages at my door EVERY day lol.

That's why I kind of laugh at some of the comments directed at Corp dentistry. Most posters here are adding to the Corporatization of America with their spending habits .... and yet .... are surprised and pissed about Corp invading dentistry. The NIMBY principle. Not In My Backyard. But it's ok everywhere else.

Corps in Walmart or anywhere else sucks. But I will opine that we as a society (stockholders, consumers, investors, etc.etc.) have caused this.
 
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Dentistry is under attack at all levels. Dentist salaries and income will continue to fall behind inflation, primarily due to dental insurances that cut and reduce reimbursements every year and the opening of new schools, increase in foreign dentists and almost every dentist who want to practice in an already saturated cities.
Schools will come and go. Northwestern closed its dental school in 2001. Emory, Georgetown, Washington U in St. Louis, and numerous other schools closed around 1990. The market tends to correct itself though. Demand for dentists and the number of applicants went up, so new schools started coming around. If there are too many dentists and income goes down, people will stop applying to dental school and schools may start closing again.

NYT released this article in 1987 about dentistry declining.


20 years later they released an article about a boom in dentistry. This is when people were saying "dentists make more than doctors."


Like I said, it comes and goes. But right now, it looks like it's going down.

There is still a shortage of dentists because dentists generally want to live in nice areas (understandable). If dentists don't fill that need, states will start authorizing dental therapists (good luck with getting them to move out to the boondocks) for more and more treatments and who knows what might happen with that? We know how MLPs like PA and NP are taking over at many levels (most notably CRNAs). Yes we should do our best to protect our interests but if nothing's being done about the demand in less desirable areas, the notion that there is a shortage will never die down and new dental schools, dental therapist schools will keep coming.

Also, the reported average income is high enough that it is still drawing students in droves. All these job ranking sites need to start getting it right and stop putting dentistry in top 5 every year (how convenient that they never talk about the massive loans in any of the rankings). We may need to provide more accurate information about our profession in order to make that happen.

We need to fight the sham called "dental insurance." Everybody knows it's a joke. Dental insurance can never work the same way as the medical counterpart so there needs to be an alternative engineered to fit the unique aspects of dentistry. The average cap has been the same for like 50 years. But nobody cares about that but us. So we need to fight it. But if it's not an organized effort it will die quickly.
 
Schools will come and go. Northwestern closed its dental school in 2001. Emory, Georgetown, Washington U in St. Louis, and numerous other schools closed around 1990. The market tends to correct itself though. Demand for dentists and the number of applicants went up, so new schools started coming around. If there are too many dentists and income goes down, people will stop applying to dental school and schools may start closing again.

Times have changed since the 80's and early 90's. Now that the government is basically covering all graduate loans with no questions asked, these schools have no issue opening and staying afloat. The burden has been removed from the school seeking funding and handed to the students taking out massive debt to cover the expenses of training dentists.

People are flocking to graduate programs outside of dentistry as well. There are too many lawyers, pharmacists, MBA's etc. The next correction isn't going to be because dental schools are having trouble obtaining funds and closing, but that the cost of attendance will just no longer be worth it. Every year the cost gets more insane to look at, yet students are fighting for seats.

If the cost of attendance doesn't eventually deter applicants (which judging by how competitive dental school still is, would take decades) then the only other method of a correction is a student loan bubble that eventually implodes. If the government would stop handing out loans with no effective measures to control cost of attendance, then the situation will continue.
 
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NYT released this article in 1987 about dentistry declining.


20 years later they released an article about a boom in dentistry. This is when people were saying "dentists make more than doctors."

Most professions are cyclical in terms of demand and supply. Dentistry is currently approaching an end of a cycle; a record number of schools, new dentists, foreign dentists, corporate offices, dental insurances, student loans and most importantly - a record rate of insurance fees declining and older dentists still working. We are heading towards a Big Crunch! It will happen within 15-20 years.... and typically, the first sign will be dental school enrollment going down, then schools closing programs or significantly lowering their class sizes, then corporations will cut back on their growth due to less supply of dentists, and then finally the insurance companies will increase their fees because dentist to population ratio will go down as less new dentists enter the workforce and older dentists continue to retire.

The next cycle IMO will be what will change the profession dramatically. Corporations will be more aggressive to buy existing practices, and fill those offices with therapists and hygienists without the need for a supervising dentist. The future generation of patients will heavily rely on technology to see their dentists quickly and more affordably and will have corporations more ingrained in their minds than today’s patients. Corporation marketing will also be in a higher gear, and push their brand recognition more through celebrities, partnerships with other big brands, and so on.

We will see all those changes happen like a domino effect. Imagine telling a dentist 5 years ago that Walmart will open a dental clinic. Imagine telling an orthodontist that Invisalign will be DIY and direct to consumer 10 years ago. Imagine telling someone applying to dental school 15 years ago that their student loans will be $300-500k. All of those things were difficult to predict or imagine. That’s why I think the next 15-20 years will be more of that undesirable changes for dentistry.
 
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Most dentists would have been happy if the Corps just treated low income patients, but the Corps decided to expand their footprint and NOW ....... dentists are pissed. Trust me. I was too when I was in private practice.
Corps don't just target the low income population; they reach out to everybody. The more patients who walk into their offices, the merrier it will be for them. There are plenty of high income earners who have bad HMO plans through their jobs. Since most private offices don't take their HMO insurances, these patients have to get tx at the corp. And since the corp dentists know they get paid nothing for treating these HMO patients, they have to convince the patients to upgrade: from Ag fillings to composite fillings, from using non-precious metal crowns to PFM etc. And since these HMO patients have good paying jobs, they usually accept the tx upgrades.
 
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I doubt dental schools will have problem with filling the spots despite the rising cost of attendance. When such problem arrives, they will start accepting students who have lower academic stats.....who desperately want to become a dentist. Currently, dental schools are super hard to get in. When I applied 20 years ago, a student with 3.0 GPA could get into an expensive school like NYU.....now, to apply for dental school, a student has to have at least a GPA of 3.5 or above. I heard that Northwestern closed its dental school not because of the drop in enrollment nor because the school failed to make money. It was because Northwestern Memorial Hospital wanted the real estate on which the dental school sat.

IMO, it's better to be a dentist with a $500k debt than having a BA degree in social sciences with $150-200k debt.

Many of you here are shocked by this new Walmart's business move. I am not shocked at all because there were already a lot of corp offices long before I started dental school. In fact, working for dental corp after graduation had always been my plan when I was a dental student/ortho resident. So to me, the more dental corp offices that are opened, the more job opportunities for me (and for my kids if they choose to follow my footstep). If I get fired by one corp, I can just work for another corp. I think it's a good idea to work for the corp after graduation. You can learn how they run their business....learn about their weaknesses so you avoid them when you are ready to start your own offices.
 
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I do not see an end to the corporatization of the service, commodity and now .... health industry. We can all say that as patients .... we would rather see mom and pop private health providers. But every day ...... we as consumers are drawn into using Corporate type business'. Every time we use Amazon, Uber, Lyft, SDC, Facebook, Twitter, Hospitals, Urgent Care, LensCrafters, Safeway, Whole Foods, Walmart, CVS, Walgreens, etc. etc. etc. we slowly validate Corp business and add to the demise of mom and pops. I'm guilty myself. I shop at the big box PGA Superstore rather than the local mom and pop golf shop. Why? More stuff at the big box. I shop at Costco, AJs, Whole Foods rather than the local Farmer's market. I go to LensCrafters for my glasses. I see Amazon packages at my door EVERY day lol.

That's why I kind of laugh at some of the comments directed at Corp dentistry. Most posters here are adding to the Corporatization of America with their spending habits .... and yet .... are surprised and pissed about Corp invading dentistry. The NIMBY principle. Not In My Backyard. But it's ok everywhere else.

Corps in Walmart or anywhere else sucks. But I will opine that we as a society (stockholders, consumers, investors, etc.etc.) have caused this.
You shouldn't feel guilty for using these corps (Uber, Amazon, LenseCrafter etc), especially when they bring more convenient services to us to help make our lives better. It bothers me when I hear some of the enviromentalists (ie Al Gore, Leonardo Di Caprio etc), who have preached about clean air/water and trash-talked about the evil oil corps, and yet they travel in large heavy SUVs/Limousines and private jets.

I drive an electric car not because I care about the enviroment but because I love all the convieniences that the car gives me: smooth fast acceleration, self-driving, not having to go to a gas station 2-3 times/week, turning on the AC remotely etc.
 
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Times have changed since the 80's and early 90's. Now that the government is basically covering all graduate loans with no questions asked, these schools have no issue opening and staying afloat. The burden has been removed from the school seeking funding and handed to the students taking out massive debt to cover the expenses of training dentists.

People are flocking to graduate programs outside of dentistry as well. There are too many lawyers, pharmacists, MBA's etc. The next correction isn't going to be because dental schools are having trouble obtaining funds and closing, but that the cost of attendance will just no longer be worth it. Every year the cost gets more insane to look at, yet students are fighting for seats.

If the cost of attendance doesn't eventually deter applicants (which judging by how competitive dental school still is, would take decades) then the only other method of a correction is a student loan bubble that eventually implodes. If the government would stop handing out loans with no effective measures to control cost of attendance, then the situation will continue.
Right. The unlimited loans is another issue, coupled with the fact that dental schools don't get very much funding. Things are not looking good for dentistry right now, though it isn't nearly as bad as pharmacy or law.

Applicant numbers have actually been going down since 2007. It was 7412 in 2001, peaked at 13742 in 2007, and it was 11298 in 2018.

The applicant/enrollee ratio has been going down as well. It was 1.74 in 2001, peaked at 2.98 in 2007 and it was 1.83 in 2018.

Number of enrollees has gone up substantially. 4267 in 2001, and 6163 in 2018. That's 44.4% growth over 17 years.

Number of GPs has gone up. 130775 in 2001 and 157676 in 2018. That's 20.5% growth over 17 years.

But US population has been going up too. 285m in 2001, and 327m in 2018. That's 14.7% growth over 17 years.

Dentist per 100,000 population has grown as well, but not by much. 57.34 in 2001 and 60.97 in 2018. That's 6.3% growth over 17 years.

So the numbers actually don't seem too bad, considering that applicant numbers are down and the population is going up.
 
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Right. The unlimited loans is another issue, coupled with the fact that dental schools don't get very much funding. Things are not looking good for dentistry right now, though it isn't nearly as bad as pharmacy or law.

Applicant numbers have actually been going down since 2007. It was 7412 in 2001, peaked at 13742 in 2007, and it was 11298 in 2018.

The applicant/enrollee ratio has been going down as well. It was 1.74 in 2001, peaked at 2.98 in 2007 and it was 1.83 in 2018.

Number of enrollees has gone up substantially. 4267 in 2001, and 6163 in 2018. That's 44.4% growth over 17 years.

Number of GPs has gone up. 130775 in 2001 and 157676 in 2018. That's 20.5% growth over 17 years.

But US population has been going up too. 285m in 2001, and 327m in 2018. That's 14.7% growth over 17 years.

Dentist per 100,000 population has grown as well, but not by much. 57.34 in 2001 and 60.97 in 2018. That's 6.3% growth over 17 years.

So the numbers actually don't seem too bad, considering that applicant numbers are down and the population is going up.

According to HPI the spending on dental care isn't going up as fast as the population is growing, so not only is the # of dentists increasing faster than the population, but the rate of spending of the population on dental care is not keeping up with the population meaning the # of dentists is increasing way more than $ spent on dental care.

Do you have numbers for how many dentists are retiring each year? And also # of enrollees for 2007?
 
You shouldn't feel guilty for using these corps (Uber, Amazon, LenseCrafter etc), especially when they bring more convenient services to us to help make our lives better. It bothers me when I hear some of the enviromentalists (ie Al Gore, Leonardo Di Caprio etc), who have preached about clean air/water and trash-talked about the evil oil corps, and yet they travel in large heavy SUVs/Limousines and private jets.

I drive an electric car not because I care about the enviroment but because I love all the convieniences that the car gives me: smooth fast acceleration, self-driving, not having to go to a gas station 2-3 times/week, turning on the AC remotely etc.


No ... I'm not guilty about using Corp products and services. I'm just saying that people have a natural tendency to complain about Corp infringement when it involves THEM. I'm just as guilty. I read the other day that Elon Musk tweeted that A.I. will put everybody out of a job. The trend seems clear. Society is heading towards Corporatization with profits being the sole mission statement. Sole proprietorship in ANY occupation seems to be going the way of dinosaurs, internal combustion engines, and mullets (well ... there is a rumour that mullet haircuts are coming back) lol.

Alot of the Sci Fi movies depict these large Corps taking over and the results are not favorable for the human race. Automation with A.I displacing workers.

Bringing this back to the original Walmart thread. Think in time .... as you walk into Walmart ... you'll be greeted by a robot instead of the retired old person.
 
No ... I'm not guilty about using Corp products and services. I'm just saying that people have a natural tendency to complain about Corp infringement when it involves THEM. I'm just as guilty. I read the other day that Elon Musk tweeted that A.I. will put everybody out of a job. The trend seems clear. Society is heading towards Corporatization with profits being the sole mission statement. Sole proprietorship in ANY occupation seems to be going the way of dinosaurs, internal combustion engines, and mullets (well ... there is a rumour that mullet haircuts are coming back) lol.

Alot of the Sci Fi movies depict these large Corps taking over and the results are not favorable for the human race. Automation with A.I displacing workers.

Bringing this back to the original Walmart thread. Think in time .... as you walk into Walmart ... you'll be greeted by a robot instead of the retired old person.
There are already self-checkout stations at many stores like Home Depot, Target that eliminate the need for these corps to hire more cashiers. There are self-order stations at most of the McDonald restaurants. I can get all my banking transactions done either on my computer or at the ATM machine and not have to wait in lines to talk to the bank tellers. Do you like to wait in lines? I don't. I am all for automation with AI and other great innovations that help save us time and make our lives better. And only big corporations have the kind of money to pay for all these innovations. This is why I love America......less government regulations, more freedom to run your businesses. When their jobs are replaced by the robots, people are forced to update their skills….ie learning how to repair these robots when they break down.

The good thing about our profession is we can never be replaced by robots. Sure, there are computer softwares that bend wires (or make clear aligners) for us but these are not the important part. Anybody can bend wires. Good ortho treatment outcomes depend on the orthodontist’s ability to diagnose and to tx plan.
 
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According to HPI the spending on dental care isn't going up as fast as the population is growing, so not only is the # of dentists increasing faster than the population, but the rate of spending of the population on dental care is not keeping up with the population meaning the # of dentists is increasing way more than $ spent on dental care.

Do you have numbers for how many dentists are retiring each year? And also # of enrollees for 2007?
I don't know how many dentists are retiring each year, but the number of enrollees for 2007 was 4618.
 
Do you have numbers for how many dentists are retiring each year? And also # of enrollees for 2007?
According to the ADA about 2 in 10 dentists are over 65, while 2 in 10 are under 35. Not all dentists over 65 are retiring, while almost all dentists under 35 are practicing. So there is a surplus of dentists every year, and it will be even higher when new schools open.
 
I don't know how many dentists are retiring each year, but the number of enrollees for 2007 was 4618.

Oh wow, # of enrollees has grown way too much since 2007.

Is there a reason dental schools are still opening? Can't the ADA be like, hey, we already have way too many dentists. No point opening more schools...
 
The biggest problem, as I've said, is probably the high tuition due to unlimited loans and dental "insurance." Here are the biggest issues with dental insurance:

- Unlike medical insurance which often goes unused for years, dental insurance gets used up to the max all the time.

- Many who get dental insurance have pre-existing conditions. This contributes to more people using up their insurance.

- Dental problems are way more common than other medical problems.

So the way it is right now, insurance companies have no incentive to raise the cap because if they raise the cap it will almost certainly be used up, especially by people with a ton of preexisting conditions. It is a guaranteed way to lose money. If they raise the deductible or premium to compensate, less people and corporations will sign up. So they put the burden on the dentists and lower the fees, so people can pay the same premium and get more care.

To make the matter worse, enough dentists have stuck with these insurance companies that the companies don't find it necessary to act.

Dental insurance isn't really an insurance. It's more like a prepayment plan and it doesn't work for us or the patients. But I understand patients don't want to bear the full cost, so we need to come up with an alternative that is more reasonable for both parties. And we need to act as a group to make it happen.
 
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The biggest problem, as I've said, is probably the high tuition due to unlimited loans and dental "insurance." Here are the biggest issues with dental insurance:

- Unlike medical insurance which often goes unused for years, dental insurance gets used up to the max all the time.

- Many who get dental insurance have pre-existing conditions. This contributes to more people using up their insurance.

- Dental problems are way more common than other medical problems.

So the way it is right now, insurance companies have no incentive to raise the cap because if they raise the cap it will almost certainly be used up, especially by people with a ton of preexisting conditions. It is a guaranteed way to lose money. If they raise the deductible or premium to compensate, less people and corporations will sign up. So they put the burden on the dentists and lower the fees, so people can pay the same premium and get more care.

To make the matter worse, enough dentists have stuck with these insurance companies that the companies don't find it necessary to act.

Dental insurance isn't really an insurance. It's more like a prepayment plan and it doesn't work for us or the patients. But I understand patients don't want to bear the full cost, so we need to come up with an alternative that is more reasonable for both parties. And we need to act as a group to make it happen.

What can dentists do about this?

I've heard other dentists on here say there's no way insurance can be ditched as a whole, and FFS practices are uncommon. Patients obviously prefer insurance, especially since many can't pay the upfront costs of dental treatment.

Should dental offices be offering in house payment plans if they end up moving towards FFS?
 
insurance companies have no incentive to raise the cap because if they raise the cap it will almost certainly be used up, especially by people with a ton of preexisting conditions. It is a guaranteed way to lose money. If they raise the deductible or premium to compensate, less people and corporations will sign up. So they put the burden on the dentists and lower the fees, so people can pay the same premium and get more care.

To make the matter worse, enough dentists have stuck with these insurance companies that the companies don't find it necessary to act.

Dental insurance isn't really an insurance. It's more like a prepayment plan and it doesn't work for us or the patients. But I understand patients don't want to bear the full cost, so we need to come up with an alternative that is more reasonable for both parties. And we need to act as a group to make it happen.
So, I received a call from CIGNA dental insurance last week and they asked me if I would be interesting in joining their capitation/DMO program. They seemed very desperate to sign me up... and if I did, they would start assigning 100 patients/members for each of my 3 offices, initially. They would pay me $6 for each member ($1,800 a total month) for just being a provider for those 300 patients, and any additional work would be extra at a Medicaid level fees. They also said I can double the patients to 200 per office (600 total) after a month or 2 - which would be $3,600 a month total for patients assignment only. This is just CIGNA, many other insurance companies have similar DMO programs.

I told them I would think about it. I asked why they were looking for providers desperately? They said that they have a ratio of 1:4 for PPO:DMO members on their books, and the DMO members will continue to outpace their PPO members in the future. They also said only 20% of their DMO members actually see a dentist and use their benefits. In other words, the other 80% is pure profit to the insurance company. So this is clearly an exponential growth in profit for the insurance companies. They are shifting towards a market for patients who have minimum coverage (DMO) but never use it... and even if they do, the dentists will be paid next to nothing. So this is the trend, and some corporations (Great Expressions is one of them) are accepting these plans at many markets.
 
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So, I received a call from CIGNA dental insurance last week and they asked me if I would be interesting in joining their capitation/DMO program. They seemed very desperate to sign me up... and if I did, they would start assigning 100 patients/members for each of my 3 offices, initially. They would pay me $6 for each member ($1,800 a total month) for just being a provider for those 300 patients, and any additional work would be extra at a Medicaid level fees. They also said I can double the patients to 200 per office (600 total) after a month or 2 - which would be $3,600 a month for patients assignment only. This is just CIGNA, many other insurance companies have similar DMO programs.

I told them I would think about it. I asked why are you looking for providers so badly? They said that they have a ration 1:4 for PPO:DMO on their books, and the DMO members will continue to outpace their PPO members in the future. They also said only 20% of their DMO actually see a dentist and use their benefits. In other words, the other 80% is pure profit to insurances. So this is clearly an exponential growth in profit for the insurance companies. They are shifting towards a market for patients who have coverage (DMO) but never use it... and even if they do, the dentists will be paid next to nothing. So this is the trend, and some corporations (Great Expressions is one of them) are accepting these plans at many markets.
That's nuts.. is there no way to fight this? I mean I guess corporations don't care but what about owners?
 
That's nuts.. is there no way to fight this? I mean I guess corporations don't care but what about owners?
There is no way to fight it because dental insurance patients/members are ok with it, and to insurance companies the patients are the “customers” and they always come first over dentists.

Also, if you are not in network with an insurance company but they have a lease arrangement with another dental insurance company, they can just put you in network with that other company without your written permission. For instance: you are not a in-network provider for MetLife but you are a provider with another dental insurance (let’s say Aetna dental insurance) that has a connection with MetLife. Metlife can lease you from that Aetna dental insurance and pay you on Atena fee schedule without your permission.
 
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So, I received a call from CIGNA dental insurance last week and they asked me if I would be interesting in joining their capitation/DMO program. They seemed very desperate to sign me up... and if I did, they would start assigning 100 patients/members for each of my 3 offices, initially. They would pay me $6 for each member ($1,800 a total month) for just being a provider for those 300 patients, and any additional work would be extra at a Medicaid level fees. They also said I can double the patients to 200 per office (600 total) after a month or 2 - which would be $3,600 a month total for patients assignment only. This is just CIGNA, many other insurance companies have similar DMO programs.

I told them I would think about it. I asked why they were looking for providers desperately? They said that they have a ratio of 1:4 for PPO:DMO members on their books, and the DMO members will continue to outpace their PPO members in the future. They also said only 20% of their DMO members actually see a dentist and use their benefits. In other words, the other 80% is pure profit to the insurance company. So this is clearly an exponential growth in profit for the insurance companies. They are shifting towards a market for patients who have minimum coverage (DMO) but never use it... and even if they do, the dentists will be paid next to nothing. So this is the trend, and some corporations (Great Expressions is one of them) are accepting these plans at many markets.
You must practice in an area where there are not a lot of dentists. Here in CA, there are plenty corp offices and private offices that accept HMOs. These HMO companies are actually very strict. They come to my offices and the corp offices that I work for every year to check the facilities and audit the charts to make sure we do everything right. One of the chart auditors (an old orthodontist, who must have been in his early 70s) was shocked when I told him how low the insurance company that he worked for paid me. He even advised me to add appliance (ie RPE, quad, lingual arch etc) to every ortho case so I could get paid more. I just smiled and pretended that my office was struggling. He didn’t know how low my overhead was.

My wife’s GP boss’ office is one of the few private offices that accept HMOs. He has had no problem competing against the Western Dental office, which was opened less than 10 years ago in the same shopping center. He hires in-house OS, perio, endo, pedo, and ortho. He used to refer all the ortho cases to me. He now has an in-house ortho and I no longer get patients from him. He is doing very well. Whatever the amount he pays my wife, he gets the same amount for doing nothing…for simply referring cases to my wife…my wife gets 50% of the collection. For an HMO office, you have to know how to tx plan in order to get paid.
 
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What can dentists do about this?

I've heard other dentists on here say there's no way insurance can be ditched as a whole, and FFS practices are uncommon. Patients obviously prefer insurance, especially since many can't pay the upfront costs of dental treatment.
Nothing. You just have go along with what the insurance companies dictate in order to get as many patients to walk into your office as possible so you can make money. If you don’t accept insurances, the patients will go to corp offices or to your competitors’ offices down the street that are willing to accept their plans. It would be crazy for a person give up his/her dental insurance, that he pays every month for, and pays cash at an office that doesn't accept his insurance. To compensate for lower pay, you have to work harder….you have to have good multitasking skills and have to be good and fast in order to handle higher patient volume in a day. Hopefully in 10 -15 years, when you are 35-40 yo, you'll make enough and save enough that you can afford to drop many of these low pay insurances and start enjoying your life more. It’s always easier to do many things and work longer hours when you are young and healthy.

You think dentistry is bad? Medicine is much worse. I told my cousin, who is a MD anesthesiologist, that an oral surgeon spends about 20 minutes to take out 4 wisdom teeth and gets paid $1200-2000. My cousin told me that the general surgeon, whom he works with, only gets, on the average, $300-500 to remove an appendix….and for patients, who are illegal immigrants and don’t have insurance, he gets nothing. My dad’s GI doc got $700 for doing a colonoscopy…and that $700 amount was shared with the anesthesiologist and the owner of the surgical center. According to my brother-in-law, who is a family doctor, medicaid only pays him $60 for each office visit. The patients are supposed to co-pay but he waives their co-payments because most of his patients are Asians. If he collects copayments from them, they will go see another doctor. Despite all these negativities, my brother-in-law still encourages his kids to follow his footstep. His oldest son is starting his 1st year at an 8-year BS/MD program.

Should dental offices be offering in house payment plans if they end up moving towards FFS?
At the corp offices and many private offices, they use third party financing company like CareCredit. The patients have to apply and have to have good credit in order to qualify. It’s like applying for a credit card. At my office, I offer interest-free payment plan for all my patients…no credit check necessary….having bad credit? No problem. It’s easy for me to do so because my patients have to come back to my office every month for orthodontic adjustments. My manager collects their payment at every monthly office visit. When a couple of parents ask me which insurance plan that they should get for braces, I told them that they didn’t need to buy any insurance because it’s much cheaper if they just go with the interest-free payment plan that my office offers.
 
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Is there a reason dental schools are still opening?
Because the Department of Education continues to write blank checks for anyone with a pulse.

Many of these new schools have tuition surpassing $100,000/year. That’s just tuition, not living expenses and accrued interest. They are making money off students so desperate to become dentists they’ll rack up $500,000 to $600,000 in student loans without blinking an eye. Eventually something will give and the bubble will pop.


Big Hoss
 
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Because the Department of Education continues to write blank checks for anyone with a pulse.
The DoE = The Government = The Tax Payers. There got to be actuarians behind the blank check policy. I think the risk analysis on the dental school student loans is probably as follows (based on 100% job placement and 0% unemployment in dentistry):

The Debt
-$500k student loans

Year 1 ROI on Debt for the Government
-$50k in annual taxes of $150k income
-$35k in interest payments at 7% rate
Total: $85k

10 Years ROI if the debt is still in repayment
-$500k in taxes paid of $150k income
-$350k in interest payments
Total: $850k in taxes and interest repayment

You can see the maths above shows that the government will get their investment back on the $500k original debt in less than 10 years, through taxes and interest.
 
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The DoE = The Government = The Tax Payers. There got to be actuarians behind the blank check policy. I think the risk analysis on the dental school student loans is probably as follows (based on 100% job placement and 0% unemployment in dentistry):

The Debt
-$500k student loans

Year 1 ROI on Debt for the Government
-$50k in annual taxes of $150k income
-$35k in interest payments at 7% rate
Total: $85k

10 Years ROI if the debt is still in repayment
-$500k in taxes paid of $150k income
-$350k in interest payments
Total: $850k in taxes and interest repayment

You can see the maths above shows that the government will get their investment back on the $500k original debt in less than 10 years, through taxes and interest.
The government wins, schools win, and students lose.

Big Hoss
 
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Nothing. You just have go along with what the insurance companies dictate in order to get as many patients to walk into your office as possible so you can make money. If you don’t accept insurances, the patients will go to corp offices or to your competitors’ offices down the street that are willing to accept their plans. It would be crazy for a person give up his/her dental insurance, that he pays every month for, and pays cash at an office that doesn't accept his insurance. To compensate for lower pay, you have to work harder….you have to have good multitasking skills and have to be good and fast in order to handle higher patient volume in a day. Hopefully in 10 -15 years, when you are 35-40 yo, you'll make enough and save enough that you can afford to drop many of these low pay insurances and start enjoying your life more. It’s always easier to do many things and work longer hours when you are young and healthy.

You think dentistry is bad? Medicine is much worse. I told my cousin, who is a MD anesthesiologist, that an oral surgeon spends about 20 minutes to take out 4 wisdom teeth and gets paid $1200-2000. My cousin told me that the general surgeon, whom he works with, only gets, on the average, $300-500 to remove an appendix….and for patients, who are illegal immigrants and don’t have insurance, he gets nothing. My dad’s GI doc got $700 for doing a colonoscopy…and that $700 amount was shared with the anesthesiologist and the owner of the surgical center. According to my brother-in-law, who is a family doctor, medicaid only pays him $60 for each office visit. The patients are supposed to co-pay but he waives their co-payments because most of his patients are Asians. If he collects copayments from them, they will go see another doctor. Despite all these negativities, my brother-in-law still encourages his kids to follow his footstep. His oldest son is starting his 1st year at an 8-year BS/MD program.


At the corp offices and many private offices, they use third party financing company like CareCredit. The patients have to apply and have to have good credit in order to qualify. It’s like applying for a credit card. At my office, I offer interest-free payment plan for all my patients…no credit check necessary….having bad credit? No problem. It’s easy for me to do so because my patients have to come back to my office every month for orthodontic adjustments. My manager collects their payment at every monthly office visit. When a couple of parents ask me which insurance plan that they should get for braces, I told them that they didn’t need to buy any insurance because it’s much cheaper if they just go with the interest-free payment plan that my office offers.

This is pretty bad honestly. It seems insurance companies can just bully dentists, and they have no choice but to accept it.

I feel like at the end of the day lowering reimbursements will only drive down quality of patient care, because dentists will be forced to treat more patients per day which will probably cause them to rush procedures. A 15 minute filling will be cut to a 10 min filling with less precision. Bad for everyone, but insurance companies don’t care and patients don’t realize.

For what its worth, income in medicine has atleast been increasing a little even though its not keeping up with inflation. Income in dentistry seems to be decreasing even when not adjusted for inflation which is pretty scary since loans are increasing at a higher rate than inflation. I’ll take your word that insurance is bad for them too because physicians complain a lot haha
 
This is pretty bad honestly. It seems insurance companies can just bully dentists, and they have no choice but to accept it.

I feel like at the end of the day lowering reimbursements will only drive down quality of patient care, because dentists will be forced to treat more patients per day which will probably cause them to rush procedures. A 15 minute filling will be cut to a 10 min filling with less precision. Bad for everyone, but insurance companies don’t care and patients don’t realize.

For what its worth, income in medicine has atleast been increasing a little even though its not keeping up with inflation. Income in dentistry seems to be decreasing even when not adjusted for inflation which is pretty scary since loans are increasing at a higher rate than inflation. I’ll take your word that insurance is bad for them too because physicians complain a lot haha
It has been bad like this for more than 20 years…long before I became a dentist. Dentists actually make more now than they did 20 years ago. I had worked as a GP for a year before I went to school for ortho. My starting salary as a GP was $250/day. My starting salary for ortho was $800/day. Today new grad GP's in CA make at least $550/day…and orthodontists at the corp make $1000-1500/day. Two major problems that today new grad dentists are facing are:

1. High student loan debt….about $200-300k more than what we, older dentists, owed.

2. Over-saturation due to openings of new dental schools. There were about 55 dental schools during my time. Now there are about 70 schools.

To make $$$, it's important to keep the overhead low when you start a practice.
I feel like at the end of the day lowering reimbursements will only drive down quality of patient care, because dentists will be forced to treat more patients per day which will probably cause them to rush procedures. A 15 minute filling will be cut to a 10 min filling with less precision. Bad for everyone, but insurance companies don’t care and patients don’t realize.
Quality doesn’t necessarily go down when you treat high patient volume. With high patient volume, your work is more steady and non-stop throughout the day. For offices that have lower patient volume because they don’t accept lot of insurances, there are empty slots in the appt book and the doctors usually sit around doing nothing. So if you are the type of person who likes to work non-stop and doesn’t want to take breaks in between patients (so you can make more $$$), accept a lot of insurances. It should take no longer 10-15 minutes to do a filling….spending longer time to drill the same tooth may make things worse.
 
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You must practice in an area where there are not a lot of dentists. Here in CA, there are plenty corp offices and private offices that accept HMOs. These HMO companies are actually very strict.
The number 1 and number 2 states with DMO providers are California and Florida. Plus those states have very strict state laws that warrants the office reviews and audits.

For my state, Ohio, it’s still a ripe DMO state and insurances are aggressively looking for providers. I’m still considering it and may or may not decide to accept it.

Any other problems you faced with DMO’s? Do you prior authorize a lot of work before you do them? How are they with claims denial rates?
 
So it begins...
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For most parents who have good jobs that offer dental insurances, they usually bring their kids to see a real orthodontist, no matter how mild the ortho problem is. And if their local ortho offices don't accept their insurances, they bring their kids to see orthodontists at the corps. Would you bring your own kids to a Smile Direct Club store for ortho treatment?
 
The number 1 and number 2 states with DMO providers are California and Florida. Plus those states have very strict state laws that warrants the office reviews and audits.

For my state, Ohio, it’s still a ripe DMO state and insurances are aggressively looking for providers. I’m still considering it and may or may not decide to accept it.

Any other problems you faced with DMO’s? Do you prior authorize a lot of work before you do them? How are they with claims denial rates?
For ortho, HMO insurance companies don't pay me anything. The patients pay me for everything but at the reduced fees that are set by their insurances. When I signed up with these plans, I agreed to charge my patients the reduced fees.....and some of them are as low as $2000 a case. That's ok for me since my overhead (brackets, wires, assistant salaries etc)for treating a full case is under $250. Many of them are easy 12-18 month cases, which help finance a few harder, more time-consuming cases. If the patients upgrade from metal to ceramic brackets, I get $500 more but I'd rather work with metal brackets and get paid less because it's actually more time-consuming to treat patients with ceramic brackets. Prior to starting the treatment, I have to submit a pano, a traced ceph, and 8 clinical photos.

I am not familiar with how things work for general dentistry. To find out, you have to work for corp offices. Corps make their dentists attend the letctures that teach them how to tx plan HMO cases. According to some GPs who work at the same corp with me, they have to convince the patients to upgrade to composite fillings because they get $0 for doing an amalgam filling. For patients who have multiple cavities but don't want to upgrade, the dentist can treat the one with a largest cavity first and slowly fill the rest of them a few months/years later. If there are cases that you think violate the biological width, you can refer them to your in-house perio (if you have one) to do crown-lengthening....and that's how you make money. The downside is you will have to deal with a lot of grievances from the patients because many of them think their insurances pay for everything. As long as you do everything right and have good records, the insurance companies will settle the cases in your favor. One upside is you get a check from the insurance every month even when the patients, whom they assign to your office, don't show up.
 
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