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Are we talking Uncle Phil obese or Jared before the Subway diet.....?
Both obese but Uncle Phil was a more socially acceptable obese.
I find neither sexually attractive.
Was I wrong to tell my fat premed friend to lose weight? (srs)
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Are we talking Uncle Phil obese or Jared before the Subway diet.....?
Both obese but Uncle Phil was a more socially acceptable obese.
I find neither sexually attractive.
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This is what ~ BMI 42 looks like in a guy (from some dude from rd that lost 100 lb)
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This is what ~ BMI 42 looks like in a guy (from some dude from rd that lost 100 lb)
I'm with you on this one. Excluding prof athletes or body builders, there is no way that this BMI could be attractive. To me, anyway........
I wonder if it is more difficult for women to be this overweight in terms of health and social problems.
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+1
How do we know that flatearth knows the actual weight of the friend? Has he stood over the scale as the friend stepped on it? I've had a several very, very heavy friends and I've noticed that the heavier they look the less likely they are to tell you their weight because they're so defensive. Sure, the guy may look morbidly obese by flatearth's standards (or any standard really) but who is to say just how heavy this guy really is, we don't know! Flatearth probably doesn't know for sure that the guy is "pushing 300 pounds", and when we hear pushing 300 pounds at 5'9" or 5'10" we think woah, that's very heavy, but maybe he's not that bad. 5'10" and 300 lbs is a huge difference from 5'10" and 250 lbs.
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Well the person in that picture is 5'11/300 (BMI 42) which is the same as 5'9 275 fwiw.
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This is what ~ BMI 42 looks like in a guy (from some dude from rd that lost 100 lb)
Yea ur right. I was underestimating what a person of this weight would look like. I would've thought this person weighs more.
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Anyone else trying to get down to their birth weight?
i'm goin down to second trimester, don't be a *****
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I just think its kind of messed up to suggest to someone to lose weight when they were asking for advice on medical school applications...
If you are truly worried about someone's health due to their weight then that should be an entirely different conversation altogether.
I think giving the suggestion to lose weight for medical school interviews is kind of offensive. Being fat isn't some kind of CON for med school or in life. It might be bad for your health sure, but if someone is happy with their body image and their health then what's the problem?
If you are truly worried about someone's health due to their weight then that should be an entirely different conversation altogether.
I think giving the suggestion to lose weight for medical school interviews is kind of offensive. Being fat isn't some kind of CON for med school or in life. It might be bad for your health sure, but if someone is happy with their body image and their health then what's the problem?
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Chances are, when your friend asked you for advice, he wasn't asking for a personal view, but an academic view.
Its kind of pathetic the persona that people give to heavier set individuals. I'm not saying its healthy to not excercise or eat whatever you want in large portions, but some people just don't think about those sorts of things. Maybe theres psychological issues behind it, maybe they don't like excercising, maybe they're fine with their bodies. Is it what I would chose for myself? No. Is it what I would bring up to my friend when he's asking for advice for the upcoming year? No.
As a friend mentioning weight and helping him out is one thing, but I think it was wrong of you to bring it up when he's asking advice on applying. Truth is you have no idea what adcoms look for in an individual, and neither does 90% of the pre-meds on here. So are you one to be offering this kind of advice?
Its kind of pathetic the persona that people give to heavier set individuals. I'm not saying its healthy to not excercise or eat whatever you want in large portions, but some people just don't think about those sorts of things. Maybe theres psychological issues behind it, maybe they don't like excercising, maybe they're fine with their bodies. Is it what I would chose for myself? No. Is it what I would bring up to my friend when he's asking for advice for the upcoming year? No.
As a friend mentioning weight and helping him out is one thing, but I think it was wrong of you to bring it up when he's asking advice on applying. Truth is you have no idea what adcoms look for in an individual, and neither does 90% of the pre-meds on here. So are you one to be offering this kind of advice?
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Lord, I know I should get back to studying and stay out of this quagmire, but I can't seem to help myself.
I'm a 2nd yr med student at a highly competitive med school. During my application cycle, I got 12 interviews, 7 acceptances, and was waitlisted at 4. (As far as the quantitative goes, I had a respectable but unimpressive 32/3.6). I thoroughly charmed most of my interviewers because I have great people skills and an interesting backstory. My BMI hovers around 40.
I've been overweight my whole life, save for a few years when I had such a severe eating disorder I kept getting threatened with hospitalization. My lowest BMI, after 12 months of eating pretty much nothing but vegetables, vomiting 6 or 7 times a day, and compulsively exercising, was 25, which still kept me in the "overweight" range. Meanwhile, I looked so superficially healthy that the well-intentioned "You look so great!" "Have you lost weight?" comments came daily.
I eventually sought treatment, and it took a while for me to adopt habits more, uh, compatible with life and success. I gained literally a hundred pounds in about eight months, which have stuck around. (My poor clueless mother is still dismayed that I'm not as skinny as I once was.) These days, I'm good to my body: I eat modest portions of unimpeachably healthy foods, I walk most everywhere I need to go, I have a regular yoga practice, and I'm happy. Not because I have a fantastic body, but because I like my life, and no matter what I look like, my body is adequate to help me achieve my daily and long-term goals - and so I count myself as lucky.
In a small-group session on diabetes, one of my classmates - of whom I am very fond, and who I know to be insightful and lovely in most every context - read aloud our fictitious patient's profile, which stated that she's 5'3 and 230 pounds. "Geez, that's fat!" he blurted out. We all laughed, another group member sweetly admonished his lack of tact, and I considered sharing that I weigh more than that. I generally think that we don't know what various weight really look like on people - and even if we think we do, it can vary so widely. I don't know whether the stated BMI of the decapitated illustrative "Fat Person" above is accurate, but here's another photo for you to consider: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77367764@N00/1455482846/in/set-72157602199008819/. Her BMI works out to 44ish. I'd encourage anyone who's interested to look around that photo set (it's called 'The BMI Project').
On the interview trail, I also noticed that I was one of very few fat candidates. I also worried about first impressions, and what quick judgments my interview panels might make based on my appearance. But you know what? At my first interview, at an Ivy, my first interviewer was a med student who was also a woman of size. She was hardcore and awesome, and told me about how much she was enjoying her surgery rotation. I had conversations at other schools that touched on my size in a round-about sort of way, and it didn't overtly come up at others. Did it make a difference? Maybe - but I also suspect that my ability to articulate my history with my body, and how it's shaped my approach to medicine and patient care, may have won a couple of panelists over.
I suspect I'm the fattest member of my current group of delightful classmates, but I don't know that for sure. One of my classmates uses a wheelchair. Another has a seizure disorder. There's more than one person with diabetes. Another uses hearing aids. Plenty of others rightfully keep their medically histories to themselves. We all live in bodies - some have more apparent issues than others, and a few might be utterly flawless specimens, but for the most part, we all come with our quirks and our dispositions for eventual pathology. Do you believe that someone who's fat shouldn't be admitted to med school because they're more likely to die prematurely? What about my classmate with a strong family history of BRCA+ breast cancer, or my ethics professor, whose father died of Huntingtons?
Many of the comments I've read in this thread reveal a mindset that's pretty blatantly discriminatory, even if some also display a measure of good intention. I'm dismayed by the flippancy and revulsion in some of the comments. You cannot be a good clinician if you find a good majority of your future patients disgusting.
Should the OP have had that conversation with his friend? My vote would be Hell to the No - not because he's wrong about possible size-based discrimination, but because he's shown that he has a monumentally shallow conception of what it means to be fat in our society and in this profession we've chosen. That size and health aren't flawless correlates. That we live in a culture where weight is bound to perceived self-worth. That safe, healthy weight loss in the time frame he's suggesting is basically impossible. That his friend's experience in the world, with all his accomplishments and all the subtext our culture reads into his body, is so much richer and more nuanced than the OP seems to have considered.
I'm a 2nd yr med student at a highly competitive med school. During my application cycle, I got 12 interviews, 7 acceptances, and was waitlisted at 4. (As far as the quantitative goes, I had a respectable but unimpressive 32/3.6). I thoroughly charmed most of my interviewers because I have great people skills and an interesting backstory. My BMI hovers around 40.
I've been overweight my whole life, save for a few years when I had such a severe eating disorder I kept getting threatened with hospitalization. My lowest BMI, after 12 months of eating pretty much nothing but vegetables, vomiting 6 or 7 times a day, and compulsively exercising, was 25, which still kept me in the "overweight" range. Meanwhile, I looked so superficially healthy that the well-intentioned "You look so great!" "Have you lost weight?" comments came daily.
I eventually sought treatment, and it took a while for me to adopt habits more, uh, compatible with life and success. I gained literally a hundred pounds in about eight months, which have stuck around. (My poor clueless mother is still dismayed that I'm not as skinny as I once was.) These days, I'm good to my body: I eat modest portions of unimpeachably healthy foods, I walk most everywhere I need to go, I have a regular yoga practice, and I'm happy. Not because I have a fantastic body, but because I like my life, and no matter what I look like, my body is adequate to help me achieve my daily and long-term goals - and so I count myself as lucky.
In a small-group session on diabetes, one of my classmates - of whom I am very fond, and who I know to be insightful and lovely in most every context - read aloud our fictitious patient's profile, which stated that she's 5'3 and 230 pounds. "Geez, that's fat!" he blurted out. We all laughed, another group member sweetly admonished his lack of tact, and I considered sharing that I weigh more than that. I generally think that we don't know what various weight really look like on people - and even if we think we do, it can vary so widely. I don't know whether the stated BMI of the decapitated illustrative "Fat Person" above is accurate, but here's another photo for you to consider: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77367764@N00/1455482846/in/set-72157602199008819/. Her BMI works out to 44ish. I'd encourage anyone who's interested to look around that photo set (it's called 'The BMI Project').
On the interview trail, I also noticed that I was one of very few fat candidates. I also worried about first impressions, and what quick judgments my interview panels might make based on my appearance. But you know what? At my first interview, at an Ivy, my first interviewer was a med student who was also a woman of size. She was hardcore and awesome, and told me about how much she was enjoying her surgery rotation. I had conversations at other schools that touched on my size in a round-about sort of way, and it didn't overtly come up at others. Did it make a difference? Maybe - but I also suspect that my ability to articulate my history with my body, and how it's shaped my approach to medicine and patient care, may have won a couple of panelists over.
I suspect I'm the fattest member of my current group of delightful classmates, but I don't know that for sure. One of my classmates uses a wheelchair. Another has a seizure disorder. There's more than one person with diabetes. Another uses hearing aids. Plenty of others rightfully keep their medically histories to themselves. We all live in bodies - some have more apparent issues than others, and a few might be utterly flawless specimens, but for the most part, we all come with our quirks and our dispositions for eventual pathology. Do you believe that someone who's fat shouldn't be admitted to med school because they're more likely to die prematurely? What about my classmate with a strong family history of BRCA+ breast cancer, or my ethics professor, whose father died of Huntingtons?
Many of the comments I've read in this thread reveal a mindset that's pretty blatantly discriminatory, even if some also display a measure of good intention. I'm dismayed by the flippancy and revulsion in some of the comments. You cannot be a good clinician if you find a good majority of your future patients disgusting.
Should the OP have had that conversation with his friend? My vote would be Hell to the No - not because he's wrong about possible size-based discrimination, but because he's shown that he has a monumentally shallow conception of what it means to be fat in our society and in this profession we've chosen. That size and health aren't flawless correlates. That we live in a culture where weight is bound to perceived self-worth. That safe, healthy weight loss in the time frame he's suggesting is basically impossible. That his friend's experience in the world, with all his accomplishments and all the subtext our culture reads into his body, is so much richer and more nuanced than the OP seems to have considered.
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I wouldn't find my future obese or overweight patients disgusting, but I would have to acknowledge that it is damaging their body and hence is in my realm of health. I'm sure you realize how obesity is a medical condition and how it detracts from ones quality of life. Therefore it needs to be treated aggressively, not in the sense that it is immediately life threatening but that it is accumulating damage to the body.
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I want to agree with you and tell you the world is fair to the overweight but one thing I have noticed about interviews in general whether it be for a job or med school. Thin attractive people have a huge advantage. I've sat through a lot of interviews for work and people remember the positives of an attractive candidate while forgetting the accomplishments of a lesser attractive one. Even if the person interviewing may not be attractive, there is a still a preference for an attractive person.
Med students tend to be fit, I know there are smart overweight people out there (see most engineering programs) but you rarely see them in med school. Do they exist, of course but not as many as one would expect if discrimination didn't play a role.
Kind of ironic for med schools to have this standard since most doctors I know are overweight.
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omg i just cried when i read this
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Oh, ****, I'm so fat.
I used to be morbidly obese and can say from experience that someone telling me to lose weight didn't motivate me to hop on the treadmill. If anything it just made me more self conscious. The motivation has to come from within if it's going to be a sustainable change.
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Size discrimination? You're right about appearance, weight, level of fitness and attractiveness being tied to self worth. But from my perspective it seems to be more of an issue for the individual rather than those around them. I think that a good portion of the "stigma" associated with being overweight is created by overweight individuals themselves. I was helping a friend (who happens to be pretty overweight) find a dress to wear to a wedding. She ended up in tears in a dressing room because she had become really upset about how fat she felt and how nothing fit.
So I offered to start exercising with her, etc, and she started crying. I know that I basically talked to her the way that men talk to us women that angers us so (tried to solve her prob and gave her advice instead of just saying awwwww listening)..... But on that particular night shopping with her, I had to grind my teeth and keep quiet when she started telling me that I "dont understand." meanwhile, swear to god, I was in day 4-5 of phase I of the south beach diet to knock off about 9 or 10lbs I've gained over the past couple years. I seriously almost smacked her. I think I had maybe eaten some lunch meat, a couple eggs and possibly a couple cashew nuts all day. And I had to walk by all kinds of tasty treats while shopping. So how does weight REALLY influence how people are judged? I don't know. But I certainly have my own hang ups that influence how confident or good I feel sometimes. But I think in this thread and discussions of this nature its not acceptable for those who aren't overweight to express their issues. I personally feel like crap whenever I stumble on an old pic of me playing lacrosse In high school. I only weigh about 5 or so more pounds now (down from 12- south beach diet works) than I did when I was 17 but I'm NOT in the same shape and can really feel it. I also know what I'm going to have to do to get back there and oh god I can feel the chest pains and vomit coming up already.....
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Most overweight people I know are pretty lazy, don't have self-control, and/or just don't care. People tend to like the idea of getting healthy and losing weight, but when it comes to implementation I rarely see the people who want to lose weight actually exercise and eat healthy when they have the choice to go out drink and eat nachos. It makes sense for people to make judgments based on physical appearance though I agree it's not fair to everyone since people have naturally different builds. I've been very surprised how many people I've heard say they would feel fine with discriminating against an overweight person, whereas if you discriminate for any other reason (race, religion, political views, etc) society tends to have a much bigger problem with it (in addition to being illegal).
I don't think you said anything wrong to your friend assuming you were just being honest and didn't say it in an unnecessarily rude way. People need to not be so sensitive about their problems, and if being overweight really bothers him then he should just lose the weight.
I don't think you said anything wrong to your friend assuming you were just being honest and didn't say it in an unnecessarily rude way. People need to not be so sensitive about their problems, and if being overweight really bothers him then he should just lose the weight.
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Size discrimination? You're right about appearance, weight, level of fitness and attractiveness being tied to self worth. But from my perspective it seems to be more of an issue for the individual rather than those around them. I think that a good portion of the "stigma" associated with being overweight is created by overweight individuals themselves. I was helping a friend (who happens to be pretty overweight) find a dress to wear to a wedding. She ended up in tears in a dressing room because she had become really upset about how fat she felt and how nothing fit.
So how does weight REALLY influence how people are judged? I don't know. But I certainly have my own hang ups that influence how confident or good I feel sometimes. But I think in this thread and discussions of this nature its not acceptable for those who aren't overweight to express their issues. I personally feel like crap whenever I stumble on an old pic of me playing lacrosse In high school. I only weigh about 5 or so more pounds now (down from 12- south beach diet works) than I did when I was 17 but I'm NOT in the same shape and can really feel it. I also know what I'm going to have to do to get back there and oh god I can feel the chest pains and vomit coming up already.....
I disagree completely. It's completely appropriate. Your friend is weak and should grow up. If a dress doesn't fit, you don't sit on the floor, cry about it, and alienate your friends; you find a bigger dress or lose weight until you can fit into the smaller one. And lest you think I'm being sexist, that goes for men too.
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If your friend is that smart a guy, he probably didn't need you to state the obvious, imho. Your intentions may have been pure, but these type of personal critiques can sometimes play with a person's mindset, particularly in times of stress. Given that he is in an application cycle, it probably wasn't a great time...for him, to be apprised of this potential deficiency. We all know that the application pool is large and competitive, and that any advantage or stumble in undergrad can mean a world of difference. Just my .02
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I agree. That's exactly how I feel about it.
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Sorry but she is in fact mordibly obese. Her weight should be 120-160 lbs. At 280, she is at least 120 lbs overweight.
This woman is 5'7", 140. This is a healthy weight.
Btw in my experience, when you ask overweight people about their lifestyle choices, they don't surprise you. They have irregular sleep schedules. They don't exercise vigorously 3-5x/wk (sorry, walks and what you do at work do not count). They don't eat right. There are exceptions to this but they are exceedingly rare.
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Sorry but she is in fact mordibly obese. Her weight should be 120-160 lbs. At 280, she is at least 120 lbs overweight.
This woman is 5'7", 140. This is a healthy weight.
Btw in my experience, when you ask overweight people about their lifestyle choices, they don't surprise you. They have irregular sleep schedules. They don't exercise vigorously 3-5x/wk (sorry, walks and what you do at work do not count). They don't eat right. There are exceptions to this but they are exceedingly rare.
I agree, there is often a misconception with women that's created by the media (airbrushing, photoshop, model lifestyles etc) that seems to suggest that thinner is better.
Actually women are most attractive when they're around 120-145 range or around 23-26 bmi. Having fat makes them look healthier. I don't think this is just my opinion either.
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Oh good bc I'm on my 2nd big bowl of chocolate ice cream.
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You should read a bit more carefully, my friend.
First, I'm going to say that physical appearance DOES make some difference in interviews. Is it an all consuming factor? No, but it does affect decisions on a boundary. Healthy, professional looking applicants are subconsciously preferred to obese applicants. It's not fair nor is it right to discriminate your decision based on this, but this is LIFE. OP was giving relevant advice.
Second, the fact that he's 300 IBs from EATING, not from low metabolism or some disease, shows that he's leading an extremely unhealthy lifestyle and the stress of being a doctor will only increase the chances for cardiovascular disease when he gets older. Whether he eats for pleasure or as a coping mechanism for something else, eating that much food isn't healthy.
Your hypothetical situation about a fat slob who eats rather than a vain super model is irrelevant. We're talking about looking healthier and more professional, not talking about correlations between vain attractiveness and acceptances.
Also, it's NOT just up to the doctors, residencies, etc. to decide if he can handle stress or not. What are we going to wait for? When he gets a heart attack from all that unhealthy eating and stress in med school/residency? We're not talking about a person who eats healthily but is overweight. We're talking about a person who eats and eats and eats until they are 300 IBs, despite being 5'9''.
He has 5-6 months. If he sets his mind to it, he can at least try to develop a healthier lifestyle and maybe shave a few pounds.
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And therein lies the root of the bias. Not saying that you are prejudiced against overweight people TheMightySmiter, just pointing out that this is the "knee-jerk" assumption many people make when sizing up an overweight person for a job. If something about you suggests lack of motivation, fair or not, you're at an automatic disadvantage.
It's a shame, actually- while I can certainly see that it's difficult for patients to take health advice from someone who isn't an example of healthy behavior themselves, the flipside is that a physician who has struggled with weight will likely be much more understanding and compassionate toward patients that face the same struggle. I see it all the time amongst my coworkers and I (most of whom are very fit.) "I understand being a little overweight, but seriously...?" "What on earth does s/he expect, when s/he is THAT size?!" In fact, I know of one resident who is severely obese, and I've always found that the patients struggling with weight seem much more comfortable discussing their habits with her than more fit providers. I once had a diabetic patient swear up and down to me that she took her insulin on schedule every day, excercised 3 times a week and was on the South Beach diet. The minute this resident got the same patient alone, she confessed that she hadn't touched her insulin in a month (!) and had been bingeing daily since a stressful life event the previous month.
OP, whether or not your friend was ready to hear your advice, I think it was right of you to help him face up to a reality that he may have otherwise made excuses about. You tried the gentle approach (inviting him to exercise, etc.) and it sounds like his weight presents a genuine risk to his physical health as well as his future.
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F that,
ftw
Strong work.
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Oh dude the south beach diet is crazy. In two and a half weeks I've lost the ten lbs I'd put on over the past few years. I mean genuinely lost lbs. I have jeans that are now too big. After the first three days the weight just falls off.
The best part is that your appetite is sort of wrecked so it's not like you flip out and eat a box of krispie kremes in desperation.
*highly recommend* and am more than happy to let anyone know what I ate or did or whatever if interested. I sort of modified phase I a little and developed some tricks that could be helpful.
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Lmfao...omg. Hey, it was better for him to know honestly.If his MCAT is higher than his BMI, he'll be ok.
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Sorry, I get really frustrated when I see these arguments made to justify being overweight. So here's my rant on 3 fronts.
Here's the thing for everyone claiming that overweight physicians will be more compassionate for their patients who are also overweight. The truth is that even though patients are more comfortable with them, they are much less likely to help their patients lose weight.
The common argument/justification made by obese people is that society has a skewed perception of body image. That's absolutely true. But that doesn't change the fact that obesity is an epidemic. We are unhealthy, and getting more unhealthy at an alarming rate. The options are not just anorexic or BMI of 40 (as one previous poster suggested), because unless you have some crazy thyroid condition, that is not a natural weight for you. No other society has sustained this level of obesity before. I suggest you check out HBO's the Weight of the Nation if you have any doubts about how important this is.
Now, as far as discriminating for medical schools & in hospitals goes (one hospital is no longer hiring staff with BMI>35 - there's already an SDN discussion here). I'm not advocating for discrimination, and in fact I think that hospitals should not be allowed to discriminate based on BMI. But the fact is that medical schools are looking for students who will become high quality physicians ready to battle disease, and obesity & obesity related illnesses are a hot topic right now because they're KILLING us, not because our society has a skewed body image. It's easy to discriminate based on weight because it's right in front of you. Most interviewees are not going to light up a cigarette right in front of their interviewer, but if they did, I'm sure it would have the same effect. Now, I don't know if they do this consciously since I'm not an Adcom, but the argument makes sense.
Should flatearth have told his friend to lose weight? Probably didn't help anything, but what he said was probably true, if still very insensitive.
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Good job with this.
In this unit of our curriculum, my school has had quite a few talks about obesity coming from the angles of nutrition, comorbidities, population health and prevention, and basic physiology. We've seen this data http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html multiple times already.
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I think URM have "leniency" in admissions because they have to go through more garbage along the way in comparison to nonURMs.
I cannot count how many times I was discriminated against throughout my years of school because of my race and ethnic background. It seemed as if even teachers were out to get me. I ended up funneling all of my attention into schooling, so I suppose it all worked out in the end. I'm just glad that's in the past now.
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I disagree with this. OP was explaining to his friend the reality of the situation, not his personal beliefs on the issue. Doctors are held to high standards; being fat, some believe, disallow a doctor to offer guidance when it comes to health and weight loss without seeming like a hypocrite. This question naturally follows: Would I be more likely to take weight loss tips from a fit doctor over an obese doctor? The answer, in most cases, is YES. His stats (3.9+ and 35 MCAT) are, indeed, phenomenal. But when admission officers are between him and another guy who is thin (with the same or slightly lower stats), weight will be a factor, inevitably. When it comes to real-world pragmatics, being obese is a disadvantage to a doctor just like it is to a med school applicant.
By telling his friend that his weight will work against him, OP is not upholding the bias against obese people or anything; he is simply telling him the truth, the reality of the situation. I see nothing wrong with that... And if anything, it reflects the "monumentally shallow" views of society, not those of OP. Whether or not the stigma held against the obese is shallow, its view is REAL and INDISPUTABLE. Hence, OP's portrayal of it to his friend was justified.
