Wayne State/DMC

[silo]

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What does anyone think of Wayne State, Detroit? It is one of the biggest medical schools around and yet, their IM residency doesn't seem to retain many of it's own students. I am considering this program and am wondering if current residents or medical students will throw some light on their cardiolgy department. I heard they lost a lot of attendings in the last two years and there are rumours that more might be on their way out. Please talk about their residency training and the hospitals. Thanks in anticipation.

 

[subtle1epiphany]

I'm an MS1, and not at Wayne State, but I've heard from a few ppl (including those who attended undergrad there) that the school and the hospital are having problems. Financial I think...but I'm not sure...
Still the pathology you'd get there is unbelievable...and the trauma...
Don't discount other large tertiary centers in Michigan though, like William Beaumont or Henry Ford. They are affiliated with Wayne State and are excellent institutions from what I hear. Not the same for residency though.
I don't think that's exactly what you asked, and I can't really back any of it up very well. Just letting you know what I've heard. If you hear otherwise, I'd love to know about the situations in Michigan.
Best of luck! 👍

 

[silo]

Bump. Comments anyone? Thanks.

 

[.edu-MD]

Bump. Comments anyone? Thanks.

Not sure what kind of problems subtle1epiphany is referring to.

For sure, DMC had financial problems several years ago. That's been turned around for at least a couple of years. Now, Karmanos (cancer center) just went independent so I don't know how that'll affect the DMC's bottom line.

I work at Wayne State and haven't heard of any problems with the school itself. I believe that DMC and Wayne State are currently negotiating their contract and I was under the impression their previous contract had expired. But I don't know what the issues are. The school did just appoint a new dean to replace the interim dean who had been serving for a couple of years so that should bring some long-term stability.

 

[subtle1epiphany]

Hopefully the changes will help Wayne State, they have the affiliations to make some great strides for the inner-city all over the country. I just hear rumblings here in Lansing. Most are likely unfounded, but trying to sort through them is difficult.
Didn't mean to come across as derisive, I'm just a first year and not even at that school. Don't take anything I say with much credit...period.
I'm interested in Henry Ford and DMC for IM/Cards (Beaumont too) so I'm very interested in anything anyone knows, whether it's about the hospital infrastructure, the pt load, the ancillary staff, etc.

 

[ddmo]

Yes, the DMC and Wayne are renegotiating their contract, and there should be a better idea of the result in the next month. I haven't heard of it pertaining to the IM department, but I know the Ortho residency is a big bone of contention between the two. I'm more in tune to the surgery aspect of the hospitals and don't know a whole lot about the IM. The DMC hospitals have good infrastucture, huge patient loads, and an ancillary staff that could be improved upon. If you want to see one of a kind pathology, syphilis capital of the world, indigants, birthplace of vanco resistant MRSA, etc., and have a lot of autonomy to learn through trial by fire, than there isn't a better place. However, if you want an easy, laid back cush residency where you never see anything other than hypertensive, obeise, diabetics, with heart failure, then this isn't the place for you.

I recommend Henry Ford because it gets the same pathology, is a huge system, and although isn't directly an "academic" program, has a higher research budget than some med schools. Also, you get more insured/paying patients compared to the DMC.

 

[silo]

Thanks for the reply. If someone who knows about their IM and Cards departments, would comment on the current state, that will be very helpful. Cardiology department's website has nothing much useful. They have not posted the fellowship match list for year 2005 and from what I heard thru grapevine, it appears that very few got fellowships in 2005.

 

[Spittz03]

I really don't know how subtle1epiphany can pass a judgment on Wayne residency program. There is a huge difference between undergraduate programs, medical programs, and residency programs.

I am a fourth year at Wayne State and have done a lot of rotations at DMC, HF, and Beaumont Hospitals. So take this post for what it is worth my experience here.

DMC - This is a very strong academic center with a lot of pathology and wonderful teaching. One of the best things about this program is its program director. She is very active in the residency program and the medical school. She is one of the main reasons why Wayne State Medical students get terrific placements in IM programs across the nation. I have interviewed at 15 programs (WSU, UM, MSU, Beaumont in Michigan) and met a lot of great PD, but have not seen anyone who could match her energy level and genuine care. It is inaccurate to say that Wayne students don't stay at Wayne. A lot of people do and they rank Wayne at the top. Program has terrific fellowships in all subspecialties. In regards to Cards: There was faculty change at the top - 4 years ago. The program remained strong. My cousin just graduated from WSU IM residency and she got her top choice - a 4 year research Cards spot. I think if you graduate from here you will get a fellowship of your choice.
In regards to financial struggles: DMC takes care of everyone that walks though the door including people refused at other hospitals in MI - one of the reasons this is the best place to train. Every so often there is an initiative to change one thing or another in the hospital system to make a larger profit. Rest assured that the IM program will stay strong throughout your training. The contract between medical school and DMC expires at the end of this year; the new contract is currently in the works. Given their proximity (adjacent to one another), their ties and dependence on one another ... DMC will not annex itself from the medical school. This is a great residency program with lots to see and learn.
-> Negatives - it is in downtown Detroit, and this is one of the larger cities in US with all of the problems and benefits. Detroit has rich history and has come a long way, but it still has ways to go. Majority of medical students and residents choose to live in Royal Oak or nearby suburbs and drive in. However, there are a number of people like me who actually love downtown and have lived in Detroit for the duration of their respective programs.

Beaumont - I like this program as well. It is a community program affiliated with both UM and WSU. It has terrific faculty and consistently ranks in the top 20 nationally in US news. I did a number of rotations here and loved it. The hospital has great facilities and supporting staff. As a highly regarded community program you will land a fellowship of your dream coming from here.
-> Negatives - This is a community program so take it as you see fit. One of my friends who did a transitional year here, found out that community program was really not for him when it comes to research. He could not wait to start his Neurology rotation at the University Hospital. However, I must say that having affiliations with 2 Universities, people that do IM here manage to find great research opportunities.

HF - This program is basically next door to DMC in downtown Detroit, although they have purchased space uptown and will move some stuff up there as well in the future. Having said that, you will do training downtown. This is a community hospital with WSU affiliation and lots of wonderful faculty. Did not interview here as I had my heart set on DMC, Beaumont, or UM. Hospital ranks well in US news. I had a terrific experience here on the surgical wards, but did not do IM here so I will say no more.

Hope everyone gets their #1. Best of luck.

 

[subtle1epiphany]

I really didn't mean to pass judgement on any school. Re-reading my post I realize how it sounded that way, I apologize. 😳
I have never doubted that Wayne State, DMC, Beaumont, and Henry Ford provide top-notch training and education. If I doubted that, I wouldn't be interested in information regarding their programs, which I really appreciate by the way. Thanks! 😀
No hard feelings I hope.

 

[angel80]

I'm a 4th year at Wayne State, and I think that all 3 programs are excellent for IM. They all have their pluses and minuses.

DMC-
pros: I did many of my 3rd year rotations there, and I have to say that it is an excellent place to train. I have rotated through many hospitals throughout the Detroit area, and the DMC has by far the most interesting pathophysiology (especially Detroit Recieving Hospital). The faculty is wonderful, and they really care about teaching. The program director is great and is willing to do whatever she can to help out her residents. Any IM resident graduating from that program will be very well trained. It's also a university hospital, so there are endless opportunites for research. It fellowships in every subspecialty of IM.

cons: The support staff (nurses, clerks, techs....) at the DMC are horrible. As a physician, you are constantly having to worry about whether your orders get put into the computer and whether they get done, which adds a lot of stress to the job. The patient population requires a lot of social support, which takes up a lot of your time. Also, the biggest problem right now is that the contract between WSU and the DMC is going to expire and they are in the process of trying to renew it. So far, the first deadline has come and gone without any agreement. The next deadline is in March. If, for some reason. the contract doesn't get renewed, the DMC is in big trouble (WSU, on the other hand, has several other hospitals that it can contract with, and rumor has it that HFH would be willing to take over as WSU's primary affiliation).

William Beaumont-

pros: It is a very nice community hospital that is financially sound and highly ranked. The support staff is amazing, and you have so many resources available to help you out. The PD is a great guy. If you want to become a hospitalist, or go into primary care, they have job placement programs to help you out. They offer a primary care tract for those wishing to go into PC. The schedule is nice and not too stressful. You get a good balance of staff and private patients.

cons: They don't have very many fellowship spots, and research opportunities are limited. Because they have such a great support staff, with nurses, PAs etc. skilled in various procedures, residents are more limited in the amount of procedures that they do as compared to other places. (for example, on the floors, the PICC line team is used for those who the nurses can't get IVs on, rather that having a resident put in a central line or EJ). You have less ownership of your patients. Even on the staff service, the ER doctors decide who to admit, and do the admit orders. Consultants can (and do) change your orders and add tests on your patients without permission.

The teaching is variable. Some doctors are great, some aren't.


Henry Ford-

Pros: You have complete ownership over all your patients (there are no private patients in the entire hospital). They offer fellowships in all IM subspecialties, and prefer to give the spots to their own residents. The teaching is great. Although it is a community program, there is a lot of research done at HFH (more than some university programs). There are several Henry Ford hospitals in the suburbs, so those wishing to remain working in the system have many options as to were to go. They are currently building a beautiful 300 bed hospital in West Bloomfield that should be completed by 2008.

Cons: Not as nice as Beaumont (the hospital is old and the rooms are small). The pathology isn't quite as good as what you may see at Detroit Receiving. They don't have morning report (have a 2 hour conference at lunch time instead), which I guess is not really a con in everyone's eyes. The support staff is ranked somewhere in between DMC and WBH.